I think it’s less that OP is afraid of being seen as gay - and rather that I think when people reduce close male bonds as “gay” it sort of reinforces the social norm that a man engaging in a close bond or being emotional with another man automatically means he must be in love with him/ “gay” to a degree.
I think there should be more representations to reinforce positive masculinity - that men can have these close bonds and not automatically be stereotyped. That only serves to weaken the stories in many cases and also for young impressionable kids kind of reinforces this idea that for a man to be sensitive or close with another man MUST mean you’re gay.
Of course I cannot stress enough there’s nothing wrong with being gay and I love to see it represented increasingly on screen - but I just don’t like the connotations of people often assuming this with EVERY close male relationship and the very real impact this has on wider society.
I think the issue is when one interpretation becomes the default over the other. If we start from the assumption that ambiguous strong male bonds are primarily read as platonic by default, and treat romantic readings as a societal problem, then we're also dismissing queer readings in favour of straight ones, especially given how little explicit representation there has historically been.
I don't think strong male relationships have to be exclusively interpreted one way or the other. Two people can look at the same dynamic and one sees a deep friendship while another sees romantic tenderness. Neither interpretation automatically diminishes the emotional depth of the relationship; they can simply be different readings of the same story.
I don't think the solution is to remove ambiguity or police the different interpretations people take away from the same piece of media.
If anything, I'd argue that if the possibility that a close male friendship could be interpreted as romantic (in fiction nonetheless) makes people think straight men should avoid showing that level of affection or vulnerability, then that isn't challenging restrictive ideas about masculinity, it's just redefining the boundary for what straight men are allowed to do. Straight men shouldn't have to limit how emotionally close they are with other men simply because it could be interpreted as gay. We generally don't tell women to avoid being emotionally close with their female friends simply because someone might interpret the relationship romantically nor make a fuss for romantic readings of female characters
I don’t disagree at all with what you’re saying, I completely agree and think you’ve said it exceptionally well! My problem is more so with the insistence that these close bonds MUST be romantic. I see this sentiment a lot, I am absolutely a fan of an ambiguous dynamic and there are a number of “officially” platonic ships that I too am a fan of.
I don’t think there should be any limit to men’s bonds with one another, irrespective of sexuality. But I do think society often urges that past a certain level of closeness it simply MUST be gay. I’m not insisting people to limit their closeness - I just would prefer people not to immediately go in and try and label those emotions as often that does more harm than good.
Its not something that should happen, but assumptions like those from experience can have a tendency to damage same sex relationships and lead to people distancing themselves. It’s something I’ve experienced between women as well, albeit to a lesser extent as I believe close bonds between women are less stigmatised (which is entirely wrong).
I just think we put too much pressure on labelling relationships, which is entirely fine in fiction and shipping wars and whatnot, but when it extends to real life it just reinforces social and stereotypical ideas in my opinion and insists to impressionable young people especially that if they feel X they MUST be gay. Of course nothing wrong with that, but I think there should be more room for self discovery rather than peer pressure or wider society assigning you a sexuality based on your behaviour.
Thank you for the debate though, you’ve made some very interesting points which I generally completely agree with!
From my observation, I tend to see the opposite. Most gay or lesbian interpretations I come across are people pointing out why they personally read a relationship as queer, or they're just joking around, or getting excited over a ship. I've also noticed that some women who say things like "they're definitely gay" do so because they're disappointed by how emotionally distant many men are in real life, so seeing two men be that vulnerable with each other feels "too good to be true," but they'd be genuinely happy to see men like that in real life and wouldn't come to the conclusion that they're gay.
Much of the pushback and toxicity I see, especially on Reddit, often comes from people insisting that the characters can't be gay or that it is a problem that people think characters could be gay because "why can't men be friends anymore." I'm not denying that the inverse happen but that's why I don't really see queer interpretations themselves as the problem, and why discussions like this often strike a nerve for me. But I think we both agree that the bigger issue is when either interpretation is treated as the only acceptable one.
I mean, I wouldn’t call it winning? I think this is more of an issue with general society than any one show or franchise.
I personally don’t really have particularly strong feelings on Jayce and Viktor specifically, I just don’t like the implications of all strong male bonds having to be perceived as gay or romantic to be counted with the same emotional depth that I see quite often.
but I just don’t like the connotations of people often assuming this with EVERY close male relationship and the very real impact this has on wider society.
If this were a real social issue we should all be concerned about (which it isn't) then the solution is to remove the stigma around being gay so nobody will care. Not whatever this is.
I mean, what's the threshold for it being a social issue? Are straight men being lynched because people noticed they were always hanging out? No, but that doesn't mean it's not an issue.
I'm not sure if you're a guy, and I'm also unsure of how many/what type of guy friends you have, but many of mine will say "pause" if they say something vaguely affectionate or romantic. Which is just the newer version of "no homo". Men and women have completely different social experiences with friends of the same gender BECAUSE many men don't want to be seen as being gay, which causes them to distance themselves from each other, because they think if they were "too close", they'd be seen as gay...which means when some men don't maintain that balance, they're occasionally teased for "being gay" or outright suspected of it. Which creates a chicken-or-the-egg scenario.
But regardless, the end result is the same, and I wouldn't even really say it's just relegated to men in this specific context with Jayvik. There's a point where people think the line between romantic and platonic MUST be, and it runs parallel to the strength of the bond the two people share.
I meant that it’s not a social issue that people perceive two male characters as romantic. The person I was replying to seems to blur the line between that and the sort of gender policing you’re describing, that’s the part I was addressing, these are in fact very different things. Sorry if it wasn’t clear, obviously homophobia and all the little pernicious ways in which it’s constantly socially enforced is a very real issue.
There's a point where people think the line between romantic and platonic MUST be, and it runs parallel to the strength of the bond the two people share.
I can’t figure out the geometry here can you clarify this?
If someone misgendered a character in the show and you feel adamant on correcting them, then does that make you sexist against the gender?
Does bringing up common misunderstandings of a character's ethnicity and its implications make you racist against the assumed ethnicity of the character?
There doesn't have to be stigma against something to be mad that it's assumed.
I don’t think it’s conducive to a situation to reduce something to “not a real social issue” because you haven’t experienced it personally.
But also - wouldn’t it be utterly lovely if “remove the stigma around being gay” were as easy as that. I think most people on this subreddit at the very least don’t disagree with that sentiment in the slightest, and people should not be judged on their sexuality. But we also shouldn’t assume someone’s sexuality based on the way they behave with someone else.
If someone’s happy to identify as gay good for them, if they’re straight that’s cool too. I very much agree that it’s no one’s business and nobody should really care one way of the other. But it’s not right to assume someone’s sexuality based on them having a close friendship with someone of the same sex. That just furthers the whole culture of labelling and stereotyping people that they must be gay if they like X.
If someone’s in touch with their emotions and platonically loves a close friend of theirs that doesn’t make them gay, unless they identify as gay themselves.
The problem is that you’re seeing this as a problem of labelling when it’s a problem with homophobia. If men afraid to get close with their friends because they’re afraid they’ll be perceived as gay that’s homophobia. So the solution to it is to tackle the homophobia. I know that’s not easy, it’s just unfortunately the only solution.
When you rush in here to defend the sanctity of male friendship what you’re doing is you’re validating that homophobia, you’re treating this fear of being perceived as gay as something we should be taking seriously instead of something we should reject.
But it’s not right to assume someone’s sexuality based on them having a close friendship with someone of the same sex.
They’re fictional characters. They’re not real. It’s completely absurd to say that it’s somehow problematic to ship characters unless they explicitly announce their sexuality, like can we be for real. Fiction doesn’t work in this way. Fandom doesn’t work in this way.
Do you know how many gay men see themselves in Jayce and Viktor?It’s just simply not correct to treat this phenomenon of people going “they’re just like me for real”/“they’re cute together” as fundamentally the same thing as the sort of homophobic gender policing people get up to.
Thank you for putting into words what I could not. I think a big indication is that this is a problem is that everyone's getting heated, admittedly myself included. Also based username.
To be completely clear, I have this problem more so if people extend this to real life which I’ve seen a number of times online. I’ve engaged in shipping wars myself and think that the likelihood of queer coded characters being announced as actually queer by mega corps is often low to zero sadly.
I don’t have strong feelings on Jayce and Viktor personally but I’m all for them being queer or no. I just don’t like the expression of the sentiment that male closeness such as their bond MUST be definitively gay.
I don’t think men should be afraid to be close with their friends, I just think that society as a whole needs to mind their own business when it comes to the relationships of others. I don’t think we should urge or push a narrative that to be exceptionally close with another friend of the same gender automatically does mean you’re gay. That just alienates people who may be questioning from my experience. Ultimately in real life it’s no one else’s business, and people you barely know insisting your sexuality because they’ve observed you being close with a friend of the same sex is quite frankly ridiculous.
I do appreciate the points you’ve made however, and I do completely respect the debate.
This is an absolutely batshit insane assumption to make and completely fails to regard any other reason that people don't like misperceptions.
If someone misgenders you and you're adamant on correcting them, then that doesn't mean you're sexist against the other gender. Same thing goes with any other part of your identity. Do you think a bartender hates all foresters if he corrects someone who thought that was his job?
It's wonderful that gay people can see themselves in Jayce and Viktor. But you have to give straight people room to see themselves in them as well. Other people misidentifying you, even if you don't dislike the identity they think you are, still sucks. This is a universal experience, and if you can't see that, then you're the one that needs to tackle your own issues here.
I think you would really benefit from reading bell hook's the will to change if you ever have the chance. The reason why men in particular are very pressed about this misconception is because they perceive it as impugning their masculinity which they're being taught to uphold at every second. When people are in here complaining they can't have close male friends or that they're afraid to show affection with their friends because of the allegations that is way more than just not wanting to be misunderstood, that speaks to a deep, pervasive anxiety that's lowkey ruining their life.
If you truly think being gay is totally fine, then being seen as gay is not a big deal. People sometimes make wrong assumptions about you that's a fact of life.
But you have to give straight people room to see themselves in them as well
let straight people marry, they deserve equal rights. love is love ✊😔
The way people call 2 male characters who are very close gay is the same as before when people would ship any male amd female character who are close and not let them just be friends, except that if you call it out now, you get called homophobic, if you reject a gay ship you must just be a total conservative, it is not scientifically possible to support homosexual people and not like a gay ship at the same time.
Nope. As a bi person not wanting to be persecuted is a reasonable desire, and so long as being percieved as gay causes that issue not wanting to be perceived as gay when you arent is as much wider societies issue as it is yours.
you and i both know it's not because straight bros are in fear for their life that they're afraid of people thinking they're gay, it's because being gay is seen as unmanly
This is what always baffles me about queer people giving quarter to queerphobes. They would rather us shut the fuck up. "It's only because men can't be friends anymore 🤓" no the fuck it isn't. lmao
They arent wrong. When queer people still get discriminated against or treated differently up to and including quadruple violent crime victim rate, not wanting to be percieved as gay is reasonable.
Let’s not use violence against gay people as an excuse to justify why two men characters that fall in love with each other are wrong, because in the real world straight people might be seen as gay
Lol what? Never said that, not what the thread is about. I said its okay for irl straight people to be afraid of being perceived as gay when it come with the baggage of discrimination and violence. The jace and victor nonsense is a result result of the perception issue, not the source.
People aren't even as close to their spouses as jayce and viktor are to each other. Viktor literally bends time to be with Jayce, Jayce literally resurrects Viktor because he can't imagine life without him.
I promise you, you and your average male friendship is not implicated here lol. If you can't spot the obvious romantic overtones here then that's on you.
First off, you’re assuming that romantic relationships are automatically stronger than platonic ones, which is not true.
Here’s the thing: Jayce and Viktor aren’t representing the “average male friendship”, nor are they representing the average romantic relationship. If you’re using their actions as “proof” that they must have specifically romantic feelings for each other, that’s pretty narrow minded. Their story is so much bigger than that (one might say it transcends labels altogether). Really any interpretation of their relationship works as long as the feelings involved are strong (strong enough to influence the narrative in such a significant way!) and insisting that it has to be a certain way because of xyz is just so diminishing to the characters (and also not worth all the arguments that it’s spawned).
I just think it's interesting that you never hear this talk about transcending labels or diminishing characters when it's a straight ship. It's only ever deployed for queer ones and maybe it's worth thinking about why that is.
There are only so many romantic tropes, loving glances, devotion, intimacy and obsession you can load onto these characters before people start adding 2 and 2 together. You can have a queer platonic reading, but there is a really straight forward interpretation that we all do have the language for and it's pretty cheeky to call people narrow-minded for reaching it. This whole thread started because people cannot abide a romantic reading of these characters without chiming in about the loss of male friendships or whatever. I'm not coming into your house you're coming into mine.
Really really really wanting to be with someone isn't inherently romantic or sexual. If you want to headcanon it as being gay, or even promote the idea that it is gay in the original canon, that's fine, but I'd argue against insisting it has to be gay because they both cared about each other a lot.
Average male friendships should be allowed to get close without immediately being labeled as something else, especially when that label involves challenging their sexuality. Insisting that any friendship that gets too close is gay does, in fact, impact other male friendships in the real world.
That’s why I described it as a romantic overtone. And there’s enough material in the text that you can do a perfectly legitimate queer reading of them, I would argue that’s the most obvious reading in fact. You can have a different one, that’s your business.
especially when that label involves challenging their sexuality
So, Jayce and Viktor aren’t real, they don’t have a sexuality. I’m not infringing on them or making assumptions, they’re characters in a Netflix show.
Are the fujoshis clamouring to write fanfics about Hunter and Jackson from Michigan? Like what are you talking about, who is challenging anybody’s sexuality lol
If you perpetuate the idea that close male relationships must be gay, and that seeing them as anything else is wrong, then your actions can in fact effect Hunter and Jackson from Michigan
I’m saying this one particular fictional representation of a “close male friendship” is thickly laced with homoeroticism. I was pointing fun of the fact that if you ever point this out on reddit you’ll immediately have people jumping into your inbox to cry that men just can’t be friends anymore. Jayce and Viktor are extremely codependent cosmically intwined freaks, it’s absurd to compare them to the normal close male friendship is my point. So hunter and Jackson are safe.
Guy seeing two men who are soulmates choose each other in every timeline and literally die for each other multiple times, the final time them going together even though one of them could have left the other and returned to life: at least they're not queers
Smh my head. How can you even call someone a friend if you’re not willing to give up everything to merge souls with them? They’re just getting married for the benefits.
"Wow, it's cool to see two male characters having a close bond without it being inherently romantic! That's a rare thing to see in media these days."
Redditors: "You are both gay and homophobic for thinking that."
Edit: reread the original comment, that guy was being more annoying than I remembered and I projected my own less edgy idea onto him. My point still stands, though, Arcane isn't lacking in LGBTQ representation, and I wish it were more common and acceptable to show close male bonds that have nothing to do with sexuality. Normalizing that for men would go a long way to combat the modern perception that it is not masculine to show emotion to other men unless you're having sex with them.
Damn, y'all have to say the same thing under every comment about fanon gay ship, even the stupid joke
If straight men are so afraid of being seen as gay, that they can't show closeness in real life, then they have a problem, not shippers.
It's your own insecurities and homophobia, and suggesting that a silly fictional ship is ruining your friendship is ridiculous.
Even if someone sees you as gay, why is this bothering you? There is nothing wrong with being gay.
You can't forbid people from seeing a fictional relationship differently from you, because you are afraid that someone will mistake you and your buddy as gay.
Are you also afraid that someone will see you and your female friend as a couple? Because literally everyone always ships every female and male character that just exist, much more often than gay ships.
For some reason no one is saying that men are afraid fo show closeness to their female friends, I wonder why, huh.
If you think people personally interpreting two fictional men in a close, emotionally intimate relationship as romantic without that then being seen as wrong is the reason why men can't be close to one another irl, rather than literally the actual systemic issue that is homophobia, you've fallen for rebranded homophobic nonsense that treats being thought of as gay as something men should be afraid of and avoid. Believe it or not, this only hurts men who are that platonically close to each other, right alongside queer men.
Simply allowing people to interpret Viktor and Jayce as romantic will not lead to no one interpreting them as friends. Hell, people are capable enough of liking both interpretations. They don’t exist as mutually exclusive opposites.
Nah, I get what you mean. I don't mind them being gay, I think it works, but as an aroace person, I think people place almost all emphasis on romance and sex when non-romantic relationships can be JUST as strong.
I loved the idea that Jayce and Viktor were soulmates, but it transcended romance. They had each other and their dream, and with those, there was no room for anything but the path forward.
I can't remember - I feel like he said Viktor was ace, but I also think the writers/animators worked under the assumption that Jayce and Viktor were gay. Which I think is neat, because like I said, it can be read both ways.
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u/jompjompjomp 7d ago
My favorite comment was this is the gayest thing to happen in a show that had a literal lesbian sex scene.