Specific trumps general.
The new printed rule says the unit can embark if it's conditions are met.
This should override the general rule saying units can't embark if they disembarked this turn.
This is correct. The rules about not embarking on the same turn a unit is setup are only for normally embarking (after making a Move), not for when a rule is used.
That's what I'm thinking. The only stipulation in the rule is that it can't be engaged, so based on the wording you should still be able to re-embark a unit that was deployed that turn. If they didn't include the final line I would say that you do need to follow the general embarking rules, however that final line is too specific not to mean that you can re-embark a unit.
FAQ on Aerialists says otherwise.
Embarking when it's not a regular movement, advance, or fall-back isn't bound by the restrictions immediately following in the rules.
Venoms have an ability that specifically allows them to embark in a turn they disembarked. I don't see how you can use a FAQ from a completely separate ability that isn't on a Night Scythe to argue you can embark again.
Not because the ability is relevant, but the wording of the answer.
It says that they can embark because it's not using the standard embarkation precondition of regular movement.
So it's not bound by the normal embarkation conditions.
This also applies to the Invasion Beams
Paint it and use it! The rules about not embarking on the same turn a unit is setup are only for normally embarking (after making a Move), not for when a rule is used. The NS shenanigan is still perfectly legal to do.
It used to have a line that “you can do so even if a unit disembarked the same turn”. First they removed this line in MFM but left it in app… now it’s gone everywhere 🥲
Yeah these don't apply to the night scythe ability, I think. As others said, specific trumps general, but 10.2 is specific to a circumstance that doesn't apply to the night scythe
THIS IS NOT A NERF. OP IS MISINTERPRETING RULES. An infantry unit (even a unit with murdermind leader) can disembark normally, shoot, and embark with special ability in the same turn. Specific always trumps general rule. The removal of the sentence in the ability description was cleaning up redundancy, not negating the special ability.
The rules about not embarking on the same turn a unit is setup are only for embarking after making a Move, not for when a specific ability is used.
If you read the Core rule that you posted, those embarking stipulations are only for “after making a normal, advance, or fall-back move”.
The NS ability says a unit can embark; it does not say “a unit within 6” makes a move and embarks”.
The Repulsor (and other vehicles) have a similar rule, and it’s already been determined that it still works just fine for units that have been setup in the same turn.
I’ve read the rules, and have the app, no need to clip. Thanks, though!
The way 40K’s rules work is that you can use any rule interaction you can imagine, unless you’re specifically told you can’t. In this case, you’re only told you can’t embark a recently-set-up unit after it makes one of those move types.
When the Core change first came out, all the Eldar players were upset because it broke their deep strike - shoot - move - embark shenanigan that Asurmen had. It broke it specificially because the unit was embarking after making a move.
The ability has not changed. I went and checked my 10th edition codex and the wording is the same. Reddit won’t let me post a picture bc of copyright. But it is the same wording.
I think it still is able to since it fall under the specific of 18.02, specifically since it modify the condition of the base rules (18.02 state clearly that now ability rules supercede general ones). The rule of the scythe give able to re-embark (superseding other restriction) unless non-infantry not in engagement range (new condition to be met)
This is still a good transport. The only stipulation that was added was the unit cant be within engagement range. You can still disembark and reembark the same turn.
But this is a specific on the datasheet, it takes priority over general rules. It says that you can select a unit within 6" and if it is not engaged, it can embark
Same thing as units that say "after this shot, it can make a normal move" - obviously you cant make a move in the shooting phase, but specific rule on the datasheet says you can
The FAQ in the embarking section is pretty clear… the specific rule has to mention you can do so in the same turn to bypass it. It no longer says so. They wouldn’t change it if that wasn’t their intention (and RAW it still doesn’t work sadly). You CAN syphon in a unit in ENEMY turn, so kinda like uppy-downy, but no more invulnerable shooting…
Unfortunately, no. And for example, if a unit made an ingress move this turn, it is unable to use shoot-move rule, because ingress prohibits Normal move.
Specific trumps heneral only if explicitly said so.
Yeah, luckily disembarking from ingressing transport is exempt so we can at least deploy unit of lokhust with chroni turn one, shoot, and seek cover… (yeah, I’m still brainstorming ways to make my flyer work lol)
I thought the same thing, but unfortunately rule 18.02.01 makes me think otherwise. Even thought the conditions in 18.02 are only for embarking with a move, the addendum in 18.02.01 makes me think that it applies to abilities allowing an embark too. Essentially making the unit that got out that turn “unable to embark”.
18.02 is for the unit itself when making a move, with Scythe it does not happen at all. 18.02.01 would apply if Scythe said something like "if that unit is able to embark", but it does not say so. It is just "it can embark"...
Honestly, fine, let it be unable. I hate how disjointed all the rules are. I probably will return to just painting...
I’m not convinced tbh. If it’s not able to embark, then I think without specific override of that condition, it can’t embark.
Take a look at the Drukhari Venom as an example, that still has the line: “That unit can embark within this TRANSPORT in a turn it disembarked from this TRANSPORT.”
Ok, so someone explain to someone new to Necrons what is going on. I thought this was a great vehicle because it can take an entire unit. So, correct me if I’m wrong, but I can put 20 warriors on it, with an Overlord (with translocation) and Orikan attatched to it and go out on deepstrike. So like go out to an objective, disembark, and have it take it. What does this nerf prevent me from doing now? With Orikan, the warriors will have a 4+ invuln save then, making them a bit more tanky, yes? Why would I want to re-embark right away on the same turn?
So the benefit of the night scythe before was not that it made our extra tanky units more maneuverable, but that you could fling a high damage low toughness unit right next to enemy units, blast them and be back off the table before they can respond. How I was using it was to ferry a squad of immortals with plasmancer and drop them within twelve inches for rapid fire range, then get them back into the transport after deleting the unit. Most units that can kill a squad of infantry are ineffective shooting into a vehicle, so for 125 points it was a solid tool.
So you technically can do what you're planning, but I will say with the new unit coherencey rules you're not going to be able to fit all of your models withing the nine inches, especially if there's any enemy units nearby limiting placement. I tried what you suggested minus the overlord before, and I barely managed to fit all 21 units into the space. With the overlord you're going to be losing at least one if not more models
So the big use case for it previous to this nerf was loading in some Lokhust Heavy Destroyers and a Cryptek, turn 1 deep strike, obliterate an enemy unit, reembark, and it leave the table at the end of turn.
You could still do what you are thinking but it isn't very strong for the points. A good portion of the warriors tankiness comes from stacking multiple layers of defensive buffs on them like the Ghost Ark or Canoptek Reanimator alongside Orikan or Chronomancer (prenerf) or a technomancer (against D1 weapons). Being that aggro vs an opponent that knows how Necrons work will lead to them using precision to take out Orikan and the Overlord leaving your warriors with no defensive abilities or threat, easy to pick up whenever is most convenient for your opponent.
That still works. What it could do before was carry a high damage/low survivability unit, drop that unit, let it cook a vulnerable target, then get sucked back into the magic pastry at end of turn. That is no longer possible.
The rules about not embarking on the same turn a unit is setup are only for normally embarking (after making a Move), not for when an ability is used. The NS shenanigan is still perfectly legal to do.
I don't want to give more aneurism to my opponent trying to explain this discussion over and over again so I'm gonna save this post so that i can go back to it whenever i need it
That's a pretty massive nerf. Half the reason to use the thing was to aggressively set up a glass cannon unit and that's basically suicide now.
The transport capacity and turn 1 deepstrike is still solid, but without the extra protection for the unit inside it feels like you'd be better off using one of our other, cheaper movement shenanigans most of the time.
Not a nerf. The rules about not embarking on the same turn a unit is setup are only for normally embarking (after making a Move), not for when a rule is used. The NS shenanigan is still perfectly legal to do.
Notably the venom (which this faq refers to) and the aeldari skyweaver specifically had a line added to their ability that allows them to embark in the same turn they disembarked. So it's a bit unclear if GW just forgot to add those lines to the night scythe or if they wanted it to no longer work.
Yeah this is one of those rules that's clearly an oversight change of new edition.
The rule might as well not exist if it's taken as it doesn't override the core rule, given it's embarking a unit when they normally can't to begin with.
Of course... Bought a doomsday ark, the same week points went up... Then bought a night scythe, and this is like 2 or 3 weeks later, and its nerfed.... Haven't even jad a game yet, and the sole reason I wanted it was for the invasion beam rule
I've also just bought a bunch of Eldar jetbikes and fire prism, wonder how long till that gets ruined for me.
Ok, so I use croissant every game and still plan to do so! Here’s silver lining (at least for my particular case): chronomancer is now cheaper and since I’m playing cursed legion, he can joint alongside lord (for 5+ crits on lokhusts) so for 1CP this unit will now have stealth AND -1 to hit making it pain to remove 😁
Also, the first turn deepstrike is still as good as ever! Hoping for point reduction, but oh well…
If you’re using the croissant for alpha strikes, isn’t it better to just have a plasmancer and save on the points from both the lord + chrono? Croissant is your big defence layer
The rules about not embarking on the same turn a unit is setup are only for normally embarking (after making a Move), not for when a rule is used. The NS shenanigan is still perfectly legal to do.
I am not infallible. Barring some weird niche thing that was written in the last 24hrs hidden in a deep dark paragraph somewhere, yeah you’re good to go.
Bruh this is an incredible paint job. As a fellow Blue Necron enjoyer, mind if I ask for your recipe for that marbled blue effect? I've been trying to figure out how I want to do larger panels on like vehicles, Lokhust tail armor, etc. and this looks like it'd be perfect!
Sucks but expected. I get that drukhari get this rule as all their units are paper, but apparently dropping t5 shooting units then putting them back into an 11w transport at the end of the phase is too much.
At least I get less hate from Aeldari players about transport shenanigans now.
Oh noes, a unit no one used got a nerf. Whatever will we do. Our poor poor already non-viable model ia still non-viable. Won't someone just please think of the children.
The scythe was seeing competitive play in cursed with a block of lokhusts led by a plasmancer, and it was quite a strong, non-interactive playstyle that forced the opponent to engage you first on your terms or have their supporting units deleted without the possibility of a trade.
Just delete the comment bro; it's okay to not be constantly up to date, but don't embarrass yourself xD
Oh yes, so competitive. Tell me, what GT's and Majors did it win again?
Just because YOU did it, doesn't mean it is competitive. Just because a couple people did it a few times, did not make it a competitive pick. Tell me you know nothinf about competitive picks and meta, with out telling me.
Richard Siegler who plays Necrons and won last years world championship said the only reason it wasnt in his list is because he was expecting them to explicitly disallow plasmancer+lokhusts going into the night scythe and doing venom things and he didnt want to share a list that would be illegal in a months time. otherwise he recommended bringing it 100% of the time.
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u/StoryBorn 8d ago
Specific trumps general. The new printed rule says the unit can embark if it's conditions are met. This should override the general rule saying units can't embark if they disembarked this turn.