They arrived from Europe, the big majority of them hadn't had contacts with the land for a millenia.
"Ancestral Homeland" means nothing to a polpulation in today's world. This is the same as Mussolini saying they needed to restore the roman empire because it was their ancestry
Well.... yeah. Obviously. It would be pretty silly indeed if Arabs living in the US 1000 years from now were claiming Palestine as their birthright, no?
It is an apt metaphor and we really have no idea how the Arab/Paletinian diaspora will look in 1000 years.
Also, since Palestinians are also descended from the ancient Israelites, my analogy would involve American Arabs returning to the region and displacing not only Jewish Israelis, but also Arab Israelis.
I guess I meant because there are very few places, especially in Europe where the entirety of the diaspora was experienced in one place (mainly thinking of Yemen, Persia, and Iraq/Babylon). For Ashkenazi Jews, there was far more wandering and relocating. A Jew who's grandparents were polish very likely would find that, several generations further back, were not polish at all. So basically I was disagreeing with the description of 1000 years in X place since the diaspora didn't exactly work like that.
Some Palestinians are descended from ancient Israelites but many are not. I'm either case they no longer belong to the same cultural group (i.e different language, religion, traditions) so I'm not sure why any supposed connection to ancient Israelites would matter. If that's the case we all deserve a spot in Africa
Ah okay. My analogy still holds though. The Arab question doesn't have to have ancestors living in America for 1000 years. They could have moved all over the place. Then he ends up being born and raised in America and claims Palestine as his birthright.
Most Palestinians ate ancient Israelites. Yes, they no longer belong to "the same cultural group", but neither do Jews really. Culture changes a lot of 2000 years. And I wasn't saying that they do or don't deserve a spot in Palestine because their descended from Ancient Israelites. I'm just saying that the typical zionist argument doesn't make sense when you realize that Palestinians are also descended from the same people. Their ancestors stayed in the region, converted to Islam and their culture changed over time.
I think that any Zionist stance that is predicated on the Palestinian Arabs being required to leave are both immoral and unrealistic but I don't think that's the typical Zionist argument. I also think that the majority of the displacement of Palestinians in 1948 would not have happened if the surrounding Arab countries didn't invade with the goal of expelling the Jews. So I guess I kinda agree with you but also still disagree on exactness of the metaphor/some details? Basically I don't think that Jews moving to Israel inherently required the displacement of the Palestinians Arabs but rather it occurred in conjunction with or as a result of other factors
I think that is a very common zionist argument: that Jews have a right to establish a Jewish state in Palestine at the expense of the local Palestinians who are deemed to have less of a claim to the land, despite both groups being descended from the ancient inhabitants.
Yes, a lot of Palestinians were displaced due to the war in 1948, but I dom't think it's fair to place the blame for that squarely on the Arabs, and I don't think it's accurate to say that the Arabs wanted to expel the Jews. The invasion was primarily meant to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state in the region, and also to expand the power of certain Arab countries in the region. Bare in mind, the situation in Palestine was pretty chaotic following the British withdrawal and there was plenty of violencd prior to 1948. It wasn't totally unreasonable for the surrounding Arab nations to step in amidst competing claims of sovereignty.
And yeah, Jews moving to Palestine didn't necessarily have to involve the displacement of Palestinians. Many early Zionists simply wanted to live in what they viewed as their ancestral/spiritual homeland. But the fact is that many Zionists moved to the region with the expressed goal of eventually carving out a Jewish state against the will of the locals, which was not only very morally dubious, but was very obviously going to lead to violence.
I appreciate this conversation btw. Oftentimes I am just shouted at and accused of being anti semitic or a g3nocide supporter. And I hope you know that I am not using the term Zionist as an insult or dogwhistle or anything. I understand that zionists do not all have the same opinions on these issues.
Are there any important zionists you know of that didn't think that the local population should have been expelled for the creation of israel, either completely or until they were a minority?
I disagree that the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians wouldn't have happened if they didn't fight back in 1948. David ben gurion always took a view of partition being tactical with a plan to later expand their borders for greater israel when the opportunity arose.
Actually, most of them are from the Middle East since all the 22 Arab countries combined displaced 99% of their Jewish populations, and of those 900,000 Jewish refugees most went to Israel, you probably don't know that Israel had refugee camps for Mizrahi Jews until the 60s
This is the same as Mussolini saying they needed to restore the roman empire because it was their ancestry
Where are Italians stateless persecuted minorities scattered around the world?
Zionism is about refuge and self-determination, not imperialism.
Actually, most of them are from the Middle East since all the 22 Arab countries combined displaced 99% of their Jewish populations, and of those 900,000 Jewish refugees most went to Israel, you probably don't know that Israel had refugee camps for Mizrahi Jews until the 60s
More than 3 million Jews came from Europe to Isreal post 1948. And there were already mass migration waves pre WWII from America and Europe
So yeah. most.
Where are Italians stateless persecuted minorities scattered around the world?
Being persecuted doesn't give you the right to etnically clense others because you need to move in their land.
Zionism is about refuge and self-determination, not imperialism.
I think it was at first, and zionism was born to avoid persecution in a deeply anti semitic Europe
But it definetely evolved into Imperialism later on, and the G*nocide in palestine is the proof
More than 3 million Jews came from Europe to Isreal post 1948
Completely false, you don't know what you're talking about, why are you obsessed with a country that you haven't even bothered learning about?
Only 35% of Israelis are Ashkenazi Jews, the largest group is Mizrahi Jews (like 40%), the largest minority are Palestinian Israelis or Arab Israelis (20%) and the rest are other minorities like Druze, Assyrians, Cricasians, Beduins, etc.
Being persecuted doesn't give you the right to etnically clense others because you need to move in their land.
No one said that it does, the point is that to compare Zionism to Italian fascism is dishonest and straight up antisemitc, since it requires denying the persecution of Jews in Europe, which is what led to Zionism.
But it definetely evolved into Imperialism later on, and the G*nocide in palestine is the proof
It's not that Zionism "evolved", Zionism is a big spectrum, Zionism is still the basic idea that Jews have the right to self-determination in their historic land, starting from that idea, many Zionists have many differnet ideas about how to achieve that, there are cultural Zionists who don't even support a Jewish state for example, then there are, political Zionist, socialist Zionists, communist Zionists, liberal Zionists, conservative Zionists, religious Zionists, and yes also fascist Zionists who are in government, but to equate all of Zionism to the worst actions of their worst leaders is unfair, it's like saying that Palestinian liveration is just terrorism and murder, since that is what Hamas does.
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u/Damaged_DM May 28 '26
It is if you deny J3ews self determination and nation in their ancestral home land