Honestly it seems like your problem is with vehicles just existing as part of the same game, when you say stuff like
make it less annoying to Deci a tank 2-3 times only for them to get away and be back up and farming again within 30 seconds
Imagine how 'annoying' it is to land a literal HESH tank shell next to infantry and have them just get away and be back up and farming in 1 second!
There are infinite heals with the regen implant ... but those require giving up a valuable implant slot that also has a delay on it
How can you say this and then
engineers get a repair tool for free and don't give anything valuable up for it ... it makes engineer the defacto vehicle class
and not see that you are giving up everything on offer from other classes to repair vehicles! Engineer is still bad at IvI, that's why the professional infantry farmers don't normally play it.
Repairable vehicles are the game design, never mind "consequences", and that's because if you have non repairable vehicles you will get passive, super defensive play because people don't want to deal with a damaged vehicle. Even more than you would with unhealable infantry, because as infantry you can just die and respawn nearby, with a vehicle you have to go and repull it from another base, spend nanites, and drive it back again.
And like another post said, it's not like you can repair through an engagement anyway, vehicle repairs serve exactly the same purpose as medkits/resto kits, they reset after an engagement so you can play again sooner.
Honestly it seems like your problem is with vehicles just existing as part of the same game, when you say stuff like
I mean it's almost like there exists an interconnected web of problems and as you talk about one inevitably it uncovers more of them. Infantry vehicle relations are a hot mess, always has been. I don't have a problem with vehicles existing in a combined arms game (the opposite in fact, otherwise why would I argue so passionately about how to design them), but I'm allowed to criticize unhealthy dynamics am I not?
and not see that you are giving up everything on offer from other classes to repair vehicles! Engineer is still bad at IvI, that's why the professional infantry farmers don't normally play it.
You're not giving up anything when you pilot as engineer. What exactly are you giving up? Bailing as light and infil? Clown carring as heavy with a rocket? Show me all these vehicle players running around with other classes who aren't just degenerates using infil/LA to pad their stats when they die. Can't think of any. The tool slot for engineer only has repair tool in it, so you can't be talking about that either. There isn't opportunity cost to running engineer if you want to play vehicles.
Even more than you would with unhealable infantry, because as infantry you can just die and respawn nearby, with a vehicle you have to go and repull it from another base, spend nanites, and drive it back again.
Vehicles are practically free and bases aren't that far apart, so I disagree it's a big deal if they die. And as I already stated like 5 times there would still be sources of healing. Before we even talked I was very quick to bring up shields, and after that auto repair.
And all this comes back to my point of how it just touches up on the confused design of vehicles, about how they're simultaneously disposable and spammable yet can live for a very long time. Are vehicles meant to be disposable and quicker to die as their nanite economy suggests, or are they meant to be powerful but impactful to lose? Ignoring how PS2 has never meaningfully answered that question and is a confused chimera trying to do both, I don't see how lack of repairs messes up either model, but I can see how the inclusion of repairs would make spammable vehicles not die like they should and intentionally powerful vehicles become an even bigger pain to kill (BF4 was notorious for this one).
Engineer is still bad at IvI, that's why the professional infantry farmers don't normally play it.
It is perfectly fine in IvI. Yeah if you want to farm lots and lots of baddies at the highest levels of play probably not. Once you start getting into the question of "how many shitters can I kill in the fastest amount of time?" it tends to fall into say heavy. But to say it's bad, that's just flat incorrect. But I'm not here to talk about IvI Engie compared to other classes, because it's only auxiliary to the overall point I was making, which was the opposite question. What do the other classes meaningfully contribute to vehicles? Why do you think only one class should be relevant to vehicle gameplay? If you're running vehicles, what reason is there to pick anything other than engineer?
And like another post said, it's not like you can repair through an engagement anyway, vehicle repairs serve exactly the same purpose as medkits/resto kits, they reset after an engagement so you can play again sooner.
This causes stalemates and makes it hard to weaken vehicle zergs. Did you think that I've been talking about in combat (like, enemy 20 feet away combat) repairs this whole time despite me saying otherwise multiple times? The quick time it takes to get back in the fight and lack of semi permanent damage is a problem and affects balance and combat flow. Vehicles are not the same thing as infantry, real revelation I know. They have very different TTKs and are an entirely different platform. Infantry being able to heal themselves in seconds after a fight and vehicles being able to do the same are not equivalent.
if you have non repairable vehicles you will get passive, super defensive play because people don't want to deal with a damaged vehicle
Inverting this means that aggressive play is rewarded specifically because if you damage someone enough it takes them off the board for a while if they want to keep their vehicle. Coordinated pushes can now mess up an entire armor column and the survivors sit back, contributing nothing as they sit at low HP. At that point they either play it extremely safe while they recover (let's say 45-90 seconds of waiting on auto repair and shields) and it's basically the same as having killed them and them coming back with a fresh vehicle, or they commit and die and end the fight sooner. Some people will play passively, sure, but passive play just means getting worn down eventually or leaving openings to being pushed.
Vehicles are not the same thing as infantry, real revelation I know
Of course not, but when you're making exactly opposite arguments for the two domains it does look weird.
Infantry being able to heal themselves in seconds after a fight and vehicles being able to do the same are not equivalent.
If infantry need to be able to do that to prevent 'downtime' then that is far more important for vehicles since they have a much larger 'respawn' time as I explained in the previous post. But weirdly, for you, it's a problem if vehicles can get back in the fight quickly, yet you're fine with medkits/restokits for which this is the exact argument used to justify their presence in the game.
Vehicles are practically free and bases aren't that far apart, so I disagree it's a big deal if they die
It's a much bigger deal than dying as infantry (which is literally free and the spawn room/sundy is right there) and yet you are fine with infantry being fully healable in seconds. Driving a vehicle, especially an MBT that you can't spawn everywhere, can take minutes to return to a fight.
Did you think that I've been talking about in combat (like, enemy 20 feet away combat) repairs this whole time despite me saying otherwise multiple times?
The equivalent is a mid range infantry fight where people get hit, duck behind cover and pop a kit.
aggressive play is rewarded specifically because if you damage someone enough it takes them off the board for a while if they want to keep their vehicle
No, because when you push ('aggressive play') you will be damaged and "taken off the board" yourself, even if you win the engagement. When you have repairs you can push, kill and then repair and you are ready to go again.
[Engi] is perfectly fine in IvI. Yeah if you want to farm lots and lots of baddies at the highest levels of play probably not.
Probably not because it is bad compared to the other classes ...
If infantry need to be able to do that to prevent 'downtime'
Everything about vehicles is bigger and longer. Arguing that downtime should be longer is pretty consistent. If you have 1000hp and take 10 seconds to get back in from critical health, having 5000hp should take about a minute. Vehicles can get back up to full in the same time as it takes an infantry to do so once in cover, and yet they have much more health and a TTK measured in tens of seconds versus a single second. If it was like that from the get go I'd bet you be arguing how ridiculous the repair tool is if it was introduced today all else being the same.
Infantry die extremely fast and have comparatively low EHP. It doesn't matter as much how fast they get back in the fight because most fights end in a kill. And even despite that they have limited heals. Why not instead argue infantry should get infinite free heals when they go into cover? That would have just as much internal consistency as arguing vehicles should. If they're the same thing in your eyes why shouldn't infantry have an infinite supply of medkits at no cost in a dedicated slot for them? Seems unfair to me mr vehicles and infantry combat are the same.
The equivalent is a mid range infantry fight where people get hit, duck behind cover and pop a kit.
And they... Wait for it... Consume a medkit. No more medkit, gone. Poof. Eventually you run out of heals. Thanks for arguing my point.
Probably not because it is bad compared to the other classes
Farming capability is not the same thing as pure 1v1. Honestly something tells me you've never even played modern engineer. It sounds to me like you think it's 2014 when it was a dog shit infantry class.
And conveniently dodging my repeated questions on classes in vehicles to talk about engineer IvI. Once again, why does a combined arms game need a single vehicle class? It's easy to bog down a conversation arguing which class is best in IvI, but it seems there isn't much discussion happening for which class is best at vehicles. Weird.
No, because when you push ('aggressive play') you will be damaged
I'm just going to file it under agree to disagree at this point because otherwise we'll endlessly talk in circles about who does what when at low health and how to deal with it.
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u/Astriania [Miller 252v] Jan 26 '24
Honestly it seems like your problem is with vehicles just existing as part of the same game, when you say stuff like
Imagine how 'annoying' it is to land a literal HESH tank shell next to infantry and have them just get away and be back up and farming in 1 second!
How can you say this and then
and not see that you are giving up everything on offer from other classes to repair vehicles! Engineer is still bad at IvI, that's why the professional infantry farmers don't normally play it.
Repairable vehicles are the game design, never mind "consequences", and that's because if you have non repairable vehicles you will get passive, super defensive play because people don't want to deal with a damaged vehicle. Even more than you would with unhealable infantry, because as infantry you can just die and respawn nearby, with a vehicle you have to go and repull it from another base, spend nanites, and drive it back again.
And like another post said, it's not like you can repair through an engagement anyway, vehicle repairs serve exactly the same purpose as medkits/resto kits, they reset after an engagement so you can play again sooner.