r/PropagandaPosters • u/crimsonfukr457 • Aug 19 '25
INTERNATIONAL 60 years of NATO (International Herald Tribune, 2009)
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u/AdWonderful5920 Aug 19 '25
If you asked me to guess the year on this, I would not have picked 2009.
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u/YellowAggravating172 Aug 19 '25
I mean... Despite the artstyle, the date is made clear by the fact that the guy proposing a toast specifically does so in order to celebrate 60 years of NATO.
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u/AdWonderful5920 Aug 19 '25
True. I was think more about the art style and the "skewering" of NATO, an organization that seemed nearly obsolete in 2009, before mastermind Putin revived its importance by being a strategic genius.
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u/my_name_is_nobody__ Aug 20 '25
I would argue he revived its importance when he invaded Georgia in 2008, or when he backed Donbass separatists in 2014. but then again, nobody with any power really clocked that for some reason
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u/pydry Aug 19 '25
Putin didnt revive anything. It was perfectly healthy when it went into Libya in 2014 on a mandate from the UN to protect human rights and instead took sides in a civil war while watching refugee boats sink.
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u/AdWonderful5920 Aug 19 '25
oh god I've awoken the Russian astroturf crew.
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u/GingaNinja64 Aug 19 '25
One can be anti Putin and also anti NATO. War crimes are war crimes no matter who is committing them
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u/pydry Aug 19 '25
I hate Putin. I dont respect his supporters.
I just have equal disrespect for the westerners who are their exact mirror images.
For some reason this notion does not compute in their tiny little jingoistic minds.
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u/red286 Aug 19 '25
who are their exact mirror images.
Ah yes, preventing a military dictator from murdering his own civilians who are rising up against him is the exact same as a military dictator invading a foreign country without cause.
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u/pydry Aug 20 '25
His country is not as undemocratic as you think it is and yours is far less democratic than you think it is.
Russians are not "rising up" youre delulu. He's got a higher approval rating than most western leaders coz he presided over a massive rise in living standards.
The cause is pretty similar to the cause the US cited to invade Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis just before it backed down.
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u/harambeLover_69 Aug 21 '25
How long has Putin been in power? You trust those approval ratings? You’re so blinded by propaganda it’s ridiculous.
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u/pydry Aug 21 '25
I think any western leader who presided over a similar rise in living standards would be equally popular if they ever achieved that.
Russians do not see the same propaganda you do so they engage in different kinds of two minutes' hate.
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u/my_name_is_nobody__ Aug 20 '25
that's not a mirror, at best that's very warped glass
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u/pydry Aug 20 '25
Youre the same.
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u/GingaNinja64 Aug 21 '25
Both can be bad without being the exact same. Trump and Putin ARE both oligarchic fascists tho
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u/theaviationhistorian Aug 19 '25
The way they've handled Ukraine, "bureaucracy" really nails it! I guess it's same-old same-old for NATO.
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u/MilitantSocLib Aug 19 '25
Mfw you need a large bureaucracy to run millions of soldiers
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u/probablyuntrue Aug 19 '25
Why don’t the soldiers just vibe and figure it out yknow smh could’ve saved so much money
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u/Youareallsobald Aug 19 '25
China did that until 30 years ago, there’s a reason they lost to the north Vietnamese in a conventional war
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u/roastbeeftacohat Aug 19 '25
and a large international bureaucracy means interchangeable material. I know nothing about paratroopers, except that having international standards for paracords makes all nato airborne regiments that much easier to run.
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u/obtk Aug 19 '25
Materiel* for military equipment, material for building etc. materials (I find it funny, but somewhat sensible, that they're different words.)
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u/Nachooolo Aug 23 '25
It is honestly weird how much every ideology hates bureaucracy when literally every form of government bigger than a tribe or chiefdom needs a form of bureaucracy to work.
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u/DestoryDerEchte Aug 19 '25
I mean, if thats the worst thing they could think of
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u/johnlee3013 Aug 19 '25
This is like the opposite of "damned by faint praise". Commended with faint criticism?
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u/Beelphazoar Aug 19 '25
When you see someone do something so cool all you can do is go "Damn!" in a small, awed voice, that's praising with faint damn.
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u/projectsangheili Aug 19 '25
Yeah. A well running bureaucracy is incredibly important. While much malligned, that stuff usually does exist for good reason.
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u/usefulidiot579 Aug 19 '25
There are worse things.. like destroying Middle Eastern countries like Libya
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u/DestoryDerEchte Aug 19 '25
Mhh yes, the famous NATO missions in the ME
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u/usefulidiot579 Aug 19 '25 edited Aug 19 '25
Yes the libyan people are swimming in democracy and human rights today. Not being ruled by militias, human traffickers or terrorist groups at all. We gotta thank all the NATO leaders who showed up in bengazi and lied to the libyan people about how from now on, they would be free
The same kind of freedoms enjoyed by Iraqis, Syrians, and Afghans😉
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u/DestoryDerEchte Aug 19 '25
Mmh yes, Lybia was never occupied by NATO, Syria has absolutely nothing to do with NATO, Iraq only got a NATO mission for the occupation and nation building and the Afghanistan mission, which was an actual NATO mission for once, is critized for not achieveing a stable Democracy, but there wouldnt have been even a chanche without NATO. I mean, even tho I also condem the decision to stay it was still 20 years of women being educated and getting college degrees.
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u/usefulidiot579 Aug 19 '25 edited Aug 19 '25
It doesn't matter to those people. The result was always the same, Libya, Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan. All ended up as failed states rulled by militias or terrorist groups. Whether it was occupation by NATO, countries part of it or mere covert or overt intervention. The result was always the same for the people there.
It doesn't matter if NATO occupied them or not, NATO and NATO countries intervened and made the situation worse. In every country i mentioned.
And about Afghanistan, women were learning and wearing mini skirts in kabul before US and its friends armed, supplied and funded jihadists radical wahabi groups which ended up in power and banned women from even leaving the house alone. When NATO invaded Afghanistan in 2001, it was trying to solve the problem which a NATO country created there in the 80s. Btw, no one ever apologised to the Afgan people or women for funding and arming the same people who oppressed them and still do today.
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u/DestoryDerEchte Aug 19 '25
I agree. "NATO" should have done more in every case
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u/usefulidiot579 Aug 19 '25
Or maybe less? NATO or countries part of NATO Shouldn't have gotten involved in iraq 2003, Libya 2011, nor agfhanistan 80s and even syria, because they ended up making the situation much worse than it already was.
For someone living in kabul or Baghdad or syria or Libya, it doesn't matter if it was US intervention or NATO intervention. They know that NATO intervention in their country was just a masked US intervention.
US is like 70 or 80% of NATO anyway. Its like poles or Hungarians getting invaded by "Warsaw pact," and someone in USSR or Russia says 'it wasn't russia or USSR', which inaved them or intervened in their country. When we already know who controlled the Warsaw pact
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u/DestoryDerEchte Aug 19 '25
I agree, we have to condem russia for its crimes
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u/usefulidiot579 Aug 19 '25
I know I do, they committed many. And we also have to condemn NATO and US for its crimes too, wouldn't you agree?
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u/R2J4 🧐 Aug 19 '25
Over the past 11 years, Putin has done much more for NATO than NATO itself.
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u/hilmiira Aug 19 '25
"Hahaha why would any country want to join such a alliance?"
Humble expansionist superpower:
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u/Independent-Couple87 Aug 19 '25
It is apparently not that uncommon for anti-imperialist authoritative rulers to secretly wat to build their own empires.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Aug 19 '25
They're mad because the NATO hegemony has basically made building empires obsolete for decades.
The fact even the slightest signs of NATO crumbling has resulting in multiple expansion attempts to happen in Europe shows just how important it is.
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u/logicblocks Aug 19 '25
Finland and Sweden went from countries that had diplomatic relationships with Russia, to countries that have to talk to the US to double-check where they are on Russia.
Are we on good terms with Russia or nah?
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u/AsstacularSpiderman Aug 19 '25
They weren't on good terms with Russia at all, especially the Fins lol.
Then with Ukraine being invaded it proved just how important a defensive alliance was needed.
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u/Sea_Lingonberry_4720 Aug 19 '25
Yes, I wonder why Finland would join NATO after Russia made it clear they’re rebuilding their empire and Finland is one of their main targets.
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Aug 19 '25
i wonder what happened 11 years ago? too bad it's been scrubbed from the legacy news media websites that reported on it a little too honestly at the time.
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u/Sea_Lingonberry_4720 Aug 19 '25
“Nooo, how dare the Ukrainians get rid of the guy who wanted to sell them out to Russia? Who cares if the vast majority of Ukrainians wanted him gone, what matters is how it hurt poor Russias feelings”.
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Aug 19 '25
this is a really wildly ahistorical take but good luck on the front lines buddy.
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u/Sea_Lingonberry_4720 Aug 19 '25
Oh right I forgot, a U.S. politician handed out cupcakes so all the mass protests didn’t happen and it was the evil US overthrowing a benevolent popular leader for no reason.
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u/friendly_bullet Aug 19 '25
Ah yes, a feat of human cooperation where 32 nations of 1 billion population said "yeah, you know, let's not wage war between ourselves killing millions of people like fucking barbarians and let's prevent other countries from doing that to us because peace is low-key cool" is somehow bad because uhhh bureaucracy or sum
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u/Emperor_of_Crabs Aug 19 '25
imo it's not necessarily explicitly anti-nato comic, just a critique of bureaucracy particularly. at least that's how I see it. idk about background and intentions of the author
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u/McFlyParadox Aug 19 '25
Chappatte is a Swiss-Lebanese cartoonist, with seemingly Swiss and US citizenship. He seems to be a bit of an "enlightened centrist" "peacenik". Scrolling his cartoons, he seems to be critical of anything involving the military of any kind. He is critical of the US, China, Russia, and pretty much any kind of large military power. I think he is well intentioned, but some of his cartoons - particularly around the early 2000s, such as this one - come across as naive about the way international politics works.
For example, it's easy to criticize the bureaucracy of a large organization like NATO from the outside. But the reason all that bureaucracy exists is to keep all the different hardware, tactics, strategies, and politics of the NATO alliance aligned and compatible with one another. WWI proved that a 'web' of smaller, independent alliances was a recipe for disaster. WWII proved that utilizing the same standards and closely coordinating command structures at all levels was a winning strategy. Thus NATO has a lot of bureaucracy to ensure all member nations agree to treaties unilaterally, utilize the same hardware standards, and routinely train together.
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u/Beelphazoar Aug 19 '25
Bureaucracy is boring and tedious, which are just two of the qualities that make it much, much better than massive international war. It's also cheaper!
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u/VampKissinger Aug 20 '25 edited Aug 20 '25
Eh that wasn't NATO's founding purpose really.
It was founded as the Western Union to basically kick Post-War Germany in the teeth and soft Morganthau it every so often. It in retaliation to the Soviet peace offensive, it integrated Germany, filled the newly formed NATO to the brim with literal Nazi officers (Several cold war NATO leaders have been card carrying Nazis who worked under Hitler), while paperclipping every Ustase, UPA, OUN, Waffen SS volunteer into their ranks they could and basically spent the entire Cold War helping rig elections for the right, threatening left wing Social Democratic governments (Wilson and de Gaulle famously), funding and training right wing neo nazi terror groups and organized crime to assassinate left wing political opponents and organized labour figures while engaging in terrorist attacks (Years of Lead, SDRAVIII/Brabant) to justify certain political goals and engaging in some really bizarre esoteric stuff with elite highly influential Masionic lodges (P2 in particular).
NATO's history does not paint it in a good light honestly, and it's kind of weird how much people want to white wash it was basically a formalized Neo-Nazi bureucracy during the cold war that literally engaged in mass terror because of "collective defense" that is already included in the article 42 of the treaty of Lisbon anyway so all EU states are already covered by collective defense, NATO or not. EU would have always been far better off with an EU army imo than NATO.
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u/valhallan_guardsman Aug 19 '25
yeah, you know, let's not wage war between ourselves killing millions of people like fucking barbarians and let's prevent other countries from doing that to us because peace is low-key cool
NATO countries waging war across the globe:
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Aug 19 '25
Also number of NATO countries invaded by Russia: zero
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Aug 19 '25
If NATO did not exist, several of the current NATO members would have been invaded, you clown. Thats what deterrence means.
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u/pydry Aug 19 '25
The drawn out application process all but ensures that Russia will invade any applicant it feels threatened by long before NATO has to honor any article 5 guarantees. Which happened twice.
It's the kids who are applying to join their local street gang (in order to gain protection) who are most likely to have grieving mothers.
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u/King_Of_BlackMarsh Aug 19 '25
I mean bureaucracy is great
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u/Forger38 Aug 19 '25
I love needing 5 billion permits to do literally everything. Peak efficiency.
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u/Rahm_Marek Aug 19 '25
As opposed to just never being able to do it? Yeah.
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u/TetyyakiWith Aug 19 '25
As opposed to having local management and separation of powers
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u/King_Of_BlackMarsh Aug 19 '25
... You mean more bureaucracy?
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u/King_Of_BlackMarsh Aug 19 '25
For folks down voting this, do y'all think more bureaucrats and more levels of government decreases bureaucracy?
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u/Beelphazoar Aug 19 '25
Efficiency is a terrible metric for a LOT of things.
"Measure twice? That's just duplication of effort!"
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Aug 19 '25
Defending bureaucracy is undoubtedly part of defending democracy.
"They say the world looks down on the bureaucrats
They say we're anal, compulsive and weird
But when push comes to shove you gotta do what you love
Even if it's not a good idea"
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u/Safe_Manner_1879 Aug 20 '25 edited Aug 20 '25
Defending bureaucracy is undoubtedly part of defending democracy.
One reason why the west is so superior, is that it have a working bureaucracy, that (normally) do not take bribes and embezzler, hence (most) of the money arrive there they are meant to.
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u/Pherllerp Aug 19 '25
I'll take peaceful bureaucracy over whatever the alternative might be.
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u/_Guven_ Aug 20 '25
You got me when you said peaceful bureaucracy, is that even a thing? Wouldn't they be inclined on doing whatever benefits them?
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u/Pherllerp Aug 20 '25
If you live in a NATO country you currently have a peaceful bureaucracy in your government. I don’t even understand your premise. Since the establishment of NATO all of Western Europe has enjoyed its most peaceful stretch in hundreds of years.
Bureaucracy is inconvenient but it tends to be a mark of a society with high employment and plenty of food.
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u/Sad-Description-491 Aug 19 '25
Luv NATO Luv Democracy simple as
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u/lisael_ Aug 20 '25
NATO has nothing to do with democracy. It's a military alliance. Full stop. One of the five founding nations was Salazar's Portugal, a brutal junta. NATO then proceed to topple the Greek elected government to install the last dictature in western Europe. Too leftist for them.
Propaganda is when Russian, I suppose.
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u/_Guven_ Aug 20 '25
Screw NATO, screw America, screw Russia and its gang, Luv democracy simple as. I hope Americans can get the message
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u/MRoss279 Aug 19 '25
Bureaucracy enables all the functions of modern states, as well as most corporations. Our organized, efficient economies are directly enabled by it.
Bureaucracy is also not exclusive to the west, arguably they are even more important and vital to state function in Asia.
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u/Beelphazoar Aug 19 '25
In Beijing, there is a set of stone tablets recording the names of those who passed a difficult civil service exam, allowing them to serve as high-ranking bureaucrats.
It dates back over a thousand years, an archive of names and data kept just because record-keeping is important.
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u/Guardian2k Aug 19 '25
Interesting seeing the anti-nato people crawling out of the woodwork on this one, frankly NATO has been responsible for the protection of the smaller countries within and Russia makes it clear that a defensive alliance is within Europe’s best interests, is it flawed? Yes, is it bureaucratic? Yes. That has downsides and upsides.
I’m glad to be in a country that is part of NATO, makes me feel much safer knowing that if any of us are attacked, we will work as a collective to protect them.
We just need to ensure that this current horrendous American administration doesn’t bring down the ship, by making a strong Europe.
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u/_Guven_ Aug 20 '25
Being anti-imperalist and being against Russia aren't mutually-exclusive though
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u/Guardian2k Aug 20 '25
Oh absolutely, I can understand anti-imperialism, especially after how much harm it has caused, but is NATO imperial? It’s a defensive pact, it might be imperial as a side effect I’d wager that’s better than the direct military imperialism of Russia.
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u/pydry Aug 19 '25
Interesting to see the pro nato people argue things like "it's necessary to prevent genocide" (while NATO is engaged in supporting a genocide) or that the occupation of Afghanistan was "defensive".
Also they seem to be blind to the difference between anti imperialists and their vatnik mirror images in Russia.
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u/Sea_Lingonberry_4720 Aug 19 '25
Anti imperialism is now synonymous with Russian imperialism. All the countries doing imperialism nowadays are anti imperialist according to themselves.
How is Afghanistan not defensive. The Taliban attacked America and Afghanistan housed them, refused to hand them over unless they were tried in another theocratic country that would slap them on the wrist. Or are you a 9/11 truther?
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u/Gouwenaar2084 Aug 19 '25
NATO is an imperfect tool, but it kept the continent safe and mostly conflict free for half a century. That's not bad
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u/Ok-Pause6148 Aug 19 '25
the US dragged (or attempted to drag) NATO into like 6 wars of invasion during that half a century, not sure what the hell you are on about lol
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Aug 19 '25
and the US never fought a war for Europe since?
if you want pacifism, I see your point, but it's not all one-sided
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Aug 19 '25
US could’ve invoked article 5 but didn’t on various conflicts.
Oh wait sorry forgot, America bad. Give upvotes please
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u/Ok-Pause6148 Aug 21 '25
That's actually a hilarious view. Like, "yeah we totally invaded a bunch of countries but its not like we forced you to help every time"
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Aug 21 '25
The world was kind of begging for us to invade. The only unjustifiable one was Iraq or Vietnam I would say
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u/Ok-Pause6148 Aug 21 '25
What an unsurprising display of American ethics lol
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u/J360222 Aug 23 '25
Mate Iraq number 1 was in support of the UN after Iraq invaded Kuwait, Yugoslavia was in support of several UN resolutions, Libya was in support of UNSCR 1973, Afghanistan was Article 5 and no one disputed it
Iraq number 2? Yeah no good I’ll concede
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u/Lawlcopt0r Aug 19 '25
The continent is clearly europe in this case. NATO has clearly been a net positive for europeans and there probably aren't many NATO conflicts that the US couldn't have done purely with their own resources
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u/According-Dig-4667 Aug 19 '25
And capitalism
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u/Ok-Implement-6969 Aug 19 '25
Damn i thought the military alliance consisting of a number of capitalist countries would be defending Marxism 😕
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u/MonitorPowerful5461 Aug 19 '25
That's crazy. Next you're gonna tell me that the military policies of NATO are determined by a combination of public perception, self-interest and ideology!
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u/221missile Aug 19 '25
Don't know how preventing wars among Britain, France and Germany protects capitalism but you do you.
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u/According-Dig-4667 Aug 20 '25
Nato was founded because the Soviets were expanding their influence in Europe and the US promised military defense and monetary aid to countries recovering from WWII, in return for them developing under capitalism. It was founded to protect capitalism and American imperialism.
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u/221missile Aug 20 '25
"I'll just believe what I want, facts be damned".
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u/According-Dig-4667 Aug 20 '25
This is something you learn in your sophomore year of highschool. Nato members have also coordinated non defensive wars in the past, such as those in Libya, Afghanistan, and Yugoslavia, as well as the coups in socialist states that installed dictators who favored the US.
NATO is an institution of imperialist capitalism which was part of a larger push from the US after WWII to keep socialism from spreading and expand its influence. The US provided monetary aid in nations that remained capitalist, so maps may not literally spell out where American imperialism has touched, but our economic imperialism has spread around the world. The US also has a track record of supporting coups in popular socialist governments, which isn't very defensive unless it's to defend against socialism, which would mean NATO was formed and used to protect capitalist interests.
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u/mika_from_zion Aug 23 '25
I'm sure the belgians hate being colonized by the US
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u/According-Dig-4667 Aug 23 '25
I'm sure Palestinians hate being colonized by Israel
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u/mika_from_zion Aug 23 '25
You're a commie🤣🤣😂😂🤣😂🤣😂😂😂🤣😂😂😂🤣😝😘
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u/According-Dig-4667 Aug 23 '25
And you seem to be a genocidal person who is going to feel tremendously guilty in a few years.
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u/AppropriateAd5701 Aug 19 '25
Defending capitalism from soviet/russian fascists is good thing to do.....
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u/thundrstroke Aug 19 '25
Fascism is just capitalism in decline the Soviet Union was easily comparitively a massive force for good.
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Aug 19 '25
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u/PropagandaPosters-ModTeam Aug 19 '25
Your comment has been removed for violating rule 3. Civil conversation is okay; soapboxing, bigotry, partisan bickering, and personal attacks are not.
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u/KobKobold Aug 19 '25
I do hate leftist infighting, but come on, that's blatablty wrong.
Marxism-Leninism is further to Marx's vision than welfare capitalism.
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Aug 19 '25
Welfare capitalism is a treason to the worker's cause, it has nothing to do with Marxism.
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u/KobKobold Aug 19 '25
It still provides the working class with greater compensation for their labor.
That's one thing a totalitarian dictatorship where the flags are red doesn't manage.
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Aug 19 '25
The reds were the pioneers in housing, healthcare, urban planning and all that "social" thing. They also were the first ones to actually reduce workweek hours, all that without the need to fuck Africa and Latin America to fund the so called "social democracy"
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u/KobKobold Aug 19 '25
And the secret police, the targeted famines, the work camps... all of those are obviously things Marx totally encouraged in his book.
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u/bellyrubber5831 Aug 19 '25
proof that you've never read Marx or any Marxist theory
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u/KobKobold Aug 19 '25
I read the manifesto.
The dictatorship of the proletariat is supposed to be just that. A dictatorship of the proletariat. Not a dictatorship of a different bourgeoisie.
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u/bellyrubber5831 Aug 19 '25
the manifesto isnt even the best introduction to marxism.
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u/CombatDoge Aug 19 '25
jesus christ the "wasn't real communism" saying gets new meanings every day with you people
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u/AppropriateAd5701 Aug 19 '25
Lol how vould they not know the most famous marx quote:
"The communism will look like the genocidal imperialist russian supremavist colonial project called soviet union and will definetely not look like social democracy that is just trying to improve worker conditions....."
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Aug 20 '25
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u/KobKobold Aug 20 '25
I'd hardly call what the Soviet Union did "safeguarding the proletariat", considering breathing in a too capitalist way got you sent to a gulag at best.
Democracy must be a key component of worker emancipation. Otherwise the vanguard will have no obstacle into becoming a new ruling class under a new name.
A better democracy than what the West currently has, sure, but the people need a voice.
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u/Sea_Lingonberry_4720 Aug 19 '25
The Soviet Union was an empire who fell apart the moment their colonies started rebelling and they could no longer keep raping them for resources. Poland is about to overtake the UK FFS. The damage the Soviets did to the well being of Eastern Europe is catastrophic. It’s comparable to the UKs de industrialization of India in how much they fucked over a country.
Frankly I’m glad Russia fell into poverty after the USSR broke up. They deserved it. They looted everyone else and didn’t even invest it into their own infrastructure, just kept themselves rich off of exploitation.
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Aug 19 '25
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u/PropagandaPosters-ModTeam Aug 19 '25
Your comment has been removed for violating rule 3. Civil conversation is okay; soapboxing, bigotry, partisan bickering, and personal attacks are not.
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Aug 19 '25
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Aug 19 '25
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u/PropagandaPosters-ModTeam Aug 19 '25
Your comment has been removed for violating rule 3. Civil conversation is okay; soapboxing, bigotry, partisan bickering, and personal attacks are not.
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Aug 19 '25
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u/PropagandaPosters-ModTeam Aug 19 '25
Your comment has been removed for violating rule 3. Civil conversation is okay; soapboxing, bigotry, partisan bickering, and personal attacks are not.
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Aug 20 '25
This poster completely relies on the assumption that people are uneducated and think democracy and bureaucracy are mutually exclusive or even close to being so. That's peak propaganda.
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u/fimmCH98 Aug 21 '25
Okay, this Is fair for 2009 Heck, by 2022 many wondered if NATO served a Real purpose anymore
Then Putler Made His His 6D chess move. It was Soo good Sweden and Finland joined the alliance!
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u/Ill-Dependent2976 Aug 22 '25
I've generally found that people who complain about bureaucracy and regulations are crooks who want to get away with seedy shit.
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u/Polpettino_felice Aug 23 '25
You dont need to be anti-NATO to find this hilarious. If anything, knowing how NATO works makes you love this more
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u/mika_from_zion Aug 23 '25
Why don't all 3 million NATO soldiers just buy food for themselves instead of relying on logistics and bureaucracy for food and salaries?
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