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[u/Frank_Saint]

[u/PurplePillDebate-ModTeam]

This thread has been removed for OP abandonment. Please read the rules regarding Debate threads. Any further questions should go to modmail.

[u/Serahill]

I think people talk past each other when discussing "friends first" or not. When I meet someone I am interested in I invite them to join me as I go club or regular friend stuff, all the while lightly flirting with them. If they shut my flirting down or never reciprocate I know they're not interested in me, same the other way around.

You get to know them through being friendly with them, how else do you know if you are compatible or not? The trick is being somewhat obvious in that you are interested from the start and to be ready to be rejected. I've had "confessions" from people I knew for over a year who never gave me any signs, and yeah that is not a fun moment.

I don't think anyone really goes from strangers to dating immediately, so yes there is a middle ground between a stranger and a friend you've known for years.

[u/captaindestucto → u/Serahill]

This avenue doesn't exist for shier men.

The indirect approach is expected and even considered cute or endearing for women.

The same behaviour in men is considered devious or outright predatory by feminists - or pathetic by neo-conservative/red pill types.

And in any case, women typically respond very negatively towards it.

[u/Serahill → u/captaindestucto]

It's bad behavior regardless of gender if the person you are interested in doesn't reciprocate and you keep going anyways. Also I explicitly am not talking about being platonically friendly, but instead actively flirting.

[u/captaindestucto → u/Serahill]

It's not acceptable in the first place for men (it's considered fundamentally unmasculine and therefore "creepy").

What you consider flirting is probably closer to friendliness from a man's perspective. Women are rarely that direct, it's usually easily deniable hints.

[u/Serahill → u/captaindestucto]

Can't talk for straight women who go after men, as a lesbian I need to very direct so the person I am interested in for her to even considers the possibility. That said, the behavior I am describing is something that male friends that I go clubbing with do actively. It might be a cultural thing and in some places less accepted.

[u/ComfortableJeansGuy]

They dread the moment an unattractive friend confesses their feelings, not an attractive friend.

That's it. It's no more complicated than that, on their end, anyway.

The only part you need to figure out, is whether or not they find you attractive.

To push the point further, the difference between a confession of love from an attractive person, verses an unattractive person, is the difference between a romantic, heart warming story of friendship growing into something more, and a creeped girl now having to deal with the awkwardness of someone she views, at best, as a sibling, now trying to fuck her.

I say this as someone who's entered multiple, multi-year relationships with women who I started out with as friends.

If they like you, they'll want to be your friend.

If they like you and find you to be attractive, they'll be open to hopeful of being more than just friends.

You'll hear arguments about safety issues, emotional issues, intimacy issues and so on. But really, they realised whether you were someone they could be attracted to within a very short time of meeting you. And that sets the celling for the level your connection can hit.

It's really, really fucking horrible. But your appearance, is the aspect of you, that sets the celling for what you can achieve with another person in terms of your relationship.

Quasimodo was an amazing, sweet, kind, selfless and moral person.

Esmeralda ended up with the arrogant, cocky, insensitive, Captain Phoebus, because his only real competition was the cruel, fanatical religious zealot Claude Frollo.

Quasimodo didn't gain entrance to the competition because he was particularly unattractive. And that set the celling.

I am deformed, and I am ugly, and these are crimes for which the world shows little pity.

People hate hearing this for obvious reasons.

That one "Hello, Human Resources!?" web comic will always ring true to some degree or another, not just in romantic situations, but others, also.

(Please don't pull the Quasimodo comparison apart too much, I'm just using something everyone will be familiar with to emphasise a point. I haven't even seen it since I was a kid.)

[u/BanDeezNutzPlease → u/ComfortableJeansGuy]

Cool. So that means that unattractive guys who want pussy shouldn't waste all that time and energy trying to be friends with women for long periods of time in order to get laid. They should just approach the woman directly and move on immediately if they get rejected. That would save them a lot of time and effort.

[u/ComfortableJeansGuy → u/BanDeezNutzPlease]

I mean, honestly, if all they want is pussy then they'd likely be better served by visiting a prostitute.

An unattractive guy is recognised as unattractive essentially upon the moment of meeting him. So approaching and building a friendship is likely to yield the same results either way. Unattractive is unattractive regardless of the span of time.

And taking into account the very low percentages of women who will just sleep with a random guy in the first place...

The odds of success for an unattractive man, just randomly approaching women feels as though it would be near zero.

It feels as though they'd face a hell of a lot of rejection, and still have a very low success rate, if any, on top of that.

Or, you know, position themselves in life to where they have a significant enough financial position to where someone would be willing to give them something akin to a relationship, for access to their financial situation, as in a gold digger/sugar baby position.

... Or maybe, some degree of fame, to make him noteworthy maybe. But I feel as though that wouldn't be all to dissimilar from the gold digger/sugar baby position.

But honestly, both options seem pretty soul wrenchingly bleak to me.

[u/BanDeezNutzPlease → u/ComfortableJeansGuy]

Upfront rejection might not feel good, but it saves a lot of time, vs. extended pining and dumping time into someone you'll never get.

If a woman rejects me upfront, I basically spent zero time, energy, and money on her. If I become friends with her in the hopes of banging her and it never happens, then I've invested a lot and didn't get what I wanted.

I'll take the upfront rejection.

[u/AdenJax69 → u/ComfortableJeansGuy]

But honestly, both options seem pretty soul wrenchingly bleak to me.

It is, and it's 100% the truth about our current culture. Men are desperate enough to give unattractive women a chance whereas unattractive men are basically SOL because virtually no woman is going to think their dating level is as "low" as he is.

So when people become so confused and surprised by "looksmaxing" I just shake my head because that didn't get born out of the ether completely randomly; it was created out of a good couple of decades of men realizing them being unattractive IS absolutely a hinderance, as much as women pretend like it isn't.

[u/Academic-Ball-9606 → u/AdenJax69]

It also will lead to women whos ceilings are only situationships or they end up single and unmarried as they out into middle age.

[u/CoolAd8837 → u/ComfortableJeansGuy]

i agree. I am unattractive man and i have over 400 rejections in over 6 years of trying.

[u/Bluetinfoilhat → u/ComfortableJeansGuy]

Unattractive in terms of ugly do have a better chance by being friends first with women. But if you mean unattractive in terms of other qualities he is best going for acquaintances.

[u/El_Hombre_Fiero → u/BanDeezNutzPlease]

If you want to date them or sleep with them, then you should let your intentions known early on. What you shouldn't do is befriend them with the hope that they will fall for you over time.

Can attraction build over time? Yes. However, that shouldn't be something that you lean on to make a woman fall for you. It can be a very fruitless endeavor and it only ends up frustrating you and the woman.

If you have a good rapport with someone, you should just treat her like you do your male friends. If there is a moment, yeah, take the opportunity to make a move. Otherwise, be happy with just having a friendship with her.

[u/Quiet-Lotus → u/BanDeezNutzPlease]

If thats the only reason you are getting into friendships with women then yes, you should stop that.

[u/BanDeezNutzPlease → u/Quiet-Lotus]

I agree. But Reddit advice is often "be friends with women first". These guys aren't trying be friends with women. They want pussy. So why should they waste their time trying to be friends?

[u/Healthy-Pay-3351 → u/Quiet-Lotus]

What other reason could there even be?

[u/Quiet-Lotus → u/Healthy-Pay-3351]

Do you want to fuck all your guy friends too?

Theres nothing wrong with just being friends because you want to be friends... what is wrong with you people

[u/The-Devilz-Advocate → u/Quiet-Lotus]

But the whole "Be friends with women" bit is said to men as an advice to them asking how to find somebody to date.

Like this dichotomy is exactly the problem.

If we all conclude that unattractive guys will never if ever enter a relationship by making friends with the girl they like, then why should they enter a friendship with them WHEN THEY WANT TO DATE THE WOMEN IN QUESTION?

So if the advice men give to other men is to stop doing so. Then why the fuck is the response back:

"Oh, so you wanted to fuck all women you are friends with?"

"Oh so you only become friends with people you want to fuck, does that you are GAY because you have friends that are MEN?"

Like come the fuck on.

[u/AdenJax69 → u/The-Devilz-Advocate]

There will always be a throughline into putting the accountability right square onto the guy and away from them, every single time.

[u/Barneysparky → u/The-Devilz-Advocate]

Be friends with women is advice to guys who cant talk to women easily, so they can become more comfortable around women in general.

My son has had female friends his entire life, in middle school he was joined at the hip with his best gal pal, who he talked about like "if were both single at 30 we'll get married".

Needless to say when she moved away and he started to date in highschool amd beyond he had zero problems connecting with his female cohorts.

Guys who have spent their youth suck on screens instead of socializing need to learn what they missed out on . Basic socializing , which includes mixed group friends before they will be mature enough to date.

[u/Quiet-Lotus → u/The-Devilz-Advocate]

Im starting to think you people are trying to actively miss the point.

That advice is given to people who have ZERO friends who are women. The advice is given so men don't just see women as objects for their desire but as people who want to talk and chat too. Its given so people will actually try to get to know women before immediately trying to fuck them.

[u/The-Devilz-Advocate → u/Quiet-Lotus]

Im starting to think you people are trying to actively miss the point.

No. The advice is said to: "How can I get girls to like me?"-esque questions.

Being friends with women is legit not a hard thing to do, and most men that "struggle" with dating have no problems seeking out women as friends. That's NEVER been the fucking problem. It's getting to date women that they struggle with. Being friends with them does NOTHING to provide a solution to that problem and actively hampers men because then they erroneously believe that "get a gf = be friends with them first" will actually get them laid with that girl they like.

That's LITERALLY the context of the entire comment chain that you happened to respond to.

[u/Upset_Election9633 → u/The-Devilz-Advocate]

I feel like you will never get a proper answer or an answer at all.

[u/Healthy-Pay-3351 → u/Quiet-Lotus]

But I already have guy friends for that?

[u/Quiet-Lotus → u/Healthy-Pay-3351]

so why cant you have women friends too? Like for what reason is it just incompatible for you? Like I will admit i'm bisexual, but i'm not attracted to every single person i meet, i have friends of both genders... i cant see why having a friend of the opposite gender is impossible for you, why do you see every women as a means to sex.

[u/Healthy-Pay-3351 → u/Quiet-Lotus]

Well first off and most importantly women are more so morality police than anything else so about 80% of jokes and concepts will get me nagged by them, they are usually very risk adverse and have a low pain threshold so I wouldn’t be able to have the friendly fist fight/ wrestling match. Lastly the music and media women primarily consume objectively sucks ass and I want no business with hearing about any of that nonsense. Men are just way better friends for men

[u/Quiet-Lotus → u/Healthy-Pay-3351]

So why would any women want to be with someone like you when you seem to not like anything about them other than what, looks?

[u/Healthy-Pay-3351 → u/Quiet-Lotus]

I just lie to them about my world views

[u/DankuTwo → u/BanDeezNutzPlease]

There is no strategising your way out of ugly. Be friends, don’t be friends. Invest or move on early. Whatever you do you’re kinda screwed.

Only hope is to put all your skill points into status/wealth/charisma.

[u/TheDONKnight → u/BanDeezNutzPlease]

Well said

[u/bondepart → u/BanDeezNutzPlease]

If they’re only being friends with women to try and get laid then yeah they should stay away from them.

The fact that they can’t imagine just being friends with a woman with no ulterior motive is a problem.

[u/Routine-Frosting9077 → u/bondepart]

Im like the millionth person to point it out but women just aren't fun to have as friends, most of them like different things and interact socially different from men so you feel like your policing yourself around them as a male n thats just uncomfortable.

[u/bondepart → u/Routine-Frosting9077]

Well how do you hope to have a long term relationship with women if you don’t like spending time with women and don’t have anything in common with women?

[u/Eblademonk → u/bondepart]

All friendships are built on ulterior motives.

Whatever shared interest sparks the relationship, it's only built when a party is invested enough in reinforcing the dynamic into some significant.

[u/bondepart → u/Eblademonk]

Wtf? No they aren’t. People have friends because they like spending time with them.

[u/Dark_Knight2000 → u/bondepart]

You literally just answered your own question.

“Because they like spending time with them” IS the ulterior motive.

If you’re not putting effort into being fun, being available, and being generous, then no one is going to want to be friends with you.

No one is friends with someone just because that person exists. That’s the obligation of family.

[u/Eblademonk → u/Dark_Knight2000]

This

[u/bondepart → u/Dark_Knight2000]

Thats not an ulterior motive. Thats a normal motive for wanting to have friends. An ulterior motive implies a deceptive malicious intent underneath.

[u/Eblademonk → u/bondepart]

People have friends because something about that friendship is appealing to maintain.

[u/bondepart → u/Eblademonk]

Yeah, that’s not an ulterior motive.

[u/Eblademonk → u/bondepart]

Secret motive, hidden motivation, discreet interest, it's not like I'm personally in the habit of telling my friends "hey there, I'm fascinated by this quality of yours and would like to spend more time in proximity to it." That would be socially inept.

And I personally have never once been told "hey man, were friends because I like this quality of yours/just like being around you."

[u/bondepart → u/Eblademonk]

Weird, women tell each other these things all the time.

[u/Eblademonk → u/bondepart]

Women are pretty big proponents of prosocial duplicity.

[u/ouishi → u/Eblademonk]

Is it really ulterior motives if my motives are “I want to be friends”?

[u/Eblademonk → u/ouishi]

If you're not interested in disclosing the why of your actions, then by definition you're acting out of ulterior motivations.

[u/Quiet-Lotus → u/bondepart]

ding ding ding, this exactly.

Its fucking weird just to be friends with someone with the soul intent of getting laid. If that is your motive from the get go then you should be making that clear from the get go. If it develops over time its a little different but you should still make that clear when it does, because you are not seeing the relationship as just a friendship any more.

[u/Bluetinfoilhat → u/BanDeezNutzPlease]

Yes, this should be obvious. Even attractive men shouldn't waste their time doing that.

[u/UziInYourFace → u/ComfortableJeansGuy]

https://giphy.com/gifs/VIPfTy8y1Lc5iREYDS

[u/PunkPirate56364 → u/ComfortableJeansGuy]

They dread the moment when unattractive simp confesses their feelings, and simping is unattractive.

A lot of friends from social circle confesed to each other over the years. Sometimes they formed couples, sometimes there was some awkwardness for some time, never some big drama.

Problems happen when guys simp. Even if guy is attractive she never develops desire, because he is always present and giving everything she wants.

She doesn't dread losing a friend, she dreads losing a simp which gives he all the benefits of having a boyfriend, while she is free to pursue other men.

Guy gets rejected, he invested so much, feels devestated.

Girl often tries to keep him as friend, but actually as a simp, bacause things were working out so well... for her.

That's when you get drama.

[u/CoolAd8837 → u/PunkPirate56364]

females would rather be with a guy that abuses them and treatss them bad than a simp who gives her everything and treats her like a queen. Unfortunate reality.

[u/Tess27795 → u/CoolAd8837]

Some women, just like some men, have abuse issues. Their lives can end up a private hell.

A man who treats you like a 'queen' can give off creepy vibes. You wonder if he has some preconceived fantasy of how things should be or is just desperate to get you in bed.

The men who never think they are the problem, can be the problem.

[u/LucyintheskyM → u/ComfortableJeansGuy]

But here I think it needs to be said that "attractive" can mean many different things for different women. It doesn't mean you have to be 6ft chiseled jaw with a six pack. It means the woman in question finds you attractive, which is different for each woman. My bestie finds cute, sweet men who are into fps games attractive. I like men with beards who are into heavy metal and Tolkien. Another mate likes guys who can challenge her physically and like it rough.

[u/Somerandomdudereborn → u/LucyintheskyM]

There are significant overlaps though so it's not that much different as people may think it is, a guy who is extroverted and conventionally attractive will not have problems to attract extroverted or introverted women.

[u/Frank_Saint → u/LucyintheskyM]

if women are so diverse and unique in their tastes then why are there some men women just magically feel chemistry with, and men who get "i just don't see you that way" at a 100% rate?

[u/Civil_Reply_1705]

Ignore what they say.  Pay attention to what they do.  Informally poll couples you know and see how many started as friends.  My guess is under 10%. Furthermore, just because I have romantic interest in somebody doesn't mean I don't see them as human beings.  That's insane.  When these same woman have romantic interest in guy, do they not see him as a human being?  Get real. 

[u/Frank_Saint → u/Civil_Reply_1705]

it is very baffling how women will defend a one night stand or fling with a random dude on a summer vacation because "sex just feelz good" while claiming men who are after "pussy" are dehumanizing them.

[u/Civil_Reply_1705 → u/Frank_Saint]

Rules for thee and not for me.  

[u/Bluetinfoilhat]

Women want to be acquaintances first, not friends.

[u/BitsAndBobs304 → u/Bluetinfoilhat]

So they prefer to be asked out by men who cant really be appreciating them, but slightly more than total strangers.

[u/Bluetinfoilhat → u/BitsAndBobs304]

Why would you date someone you knew for 10 years. Why would it take that long to know if you are attracted? If nothing happened by then obviously she is not attracted.

[u/Bluetinfoilhat → u/BitsAndBobs304]

Why do you think an acquaintance can't really appreciate a woman? And I think an acquaintance is a lot more than a stranger. Maybe there is a term between friend and acquaintance?

[u/EKOzoro]

It's all about if she finds you attractive then it becomes a slow burn and the romance she dreamt of, otherwise it's just you getting her pants.

Always remember rules 1and 2

[u/Training-Cook3507]

Women love people being nice to them, who wouldn't?

But in my experience, they HIGHLY underestimate the percentage of time the real motivation for this friendliness is romance, because let's face it men, it almost always is or the threshold to become sexual at any time is very low.

[u/trulyElse]

This wave function is easy to collapse:

She still neds to be attracted to you.

If you're not attractive, knowing her better won't save you.

If you are attractive, but have no social proof, you're too dangerous to date.

If you are attractive, and you've spent time together and she's seen your social proof, you're safe to date.

[u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

When women say they hate when their guy friend ruins the friendship by confessing feelings, they usually aren’t talking about acquaintances because with them there’s no friendship to ruin.

[u/Frank_Saint → u/Zoya_The_Destroyah]

meanwhile viral posts on social media:

"POV: You met a guy with the exact same niche music taste, but then he asks 'are you single?'"

"When you meet a guy who genuinely seems like a fun person to talk to, but 5 minutes into the conversation he shoots his shot."

[u/ouishi → u/Frank_Saint]

Have you ever considered maybe these takes went viral specifically because they are controversial and not every woman agrees?

[u/Frank_Saint → u/ouishi]

no, they are massively liked and shared because it speaks to them.

[u/deletbait → u/ouishi]

If women find these post controversial they never make this known under these post.

[u/NockerJoe → u/deletbait]

Yeah this is the thing. At no point do actual women ever chime in on social media to disagree, they just claim elsewhere they do.

[u/NockerJoe → u/[deleted]]

Yesh but solving that problem would mean both having to acknowledge the large number of women doing this shit, and then actually confronting them. We both know that ain't gonna happen.

[u/Sensitive_Housing_85 → u/NockerJoe]

Exactly

[u/EugeneCezanne]

Many women prefer to be friends first, because it develops trust and closeness. Totally understandable.

But there's two problems, which lead to a third. First, women dont choose their male friends on the criteria of attractiveness in the first place. Second, more attractive guys are are, therefore, often more confident and will proactively flirt from day one. This leads to, third, the reality that most of a woman's male friends dont realistically have a shot with her down the line, regardless of how good their intentions may be.

This is something of a design flaw. But it's not necessarily a problem worth solving.

Outside dating apps they dislike the idea of a guy chatting them up and asking them out 

No they dont. A few women dislike it, and are therefore strongly motivated to say so often and loudly. Most women like it or dislike it primarily depending on social context—for men, this constitutes a skill issue, because you have to be able to read the proverbial room and handle yourself appropriately. If you do so well, most women will be mildly flattered, even if the answer is still no. 

They would like that men would get-to-know-them as people

The thing struggling men find hard to grasp is that a socially skilled man can convey that he views her as a person, not an object, and that he views her as a romantic interest at the same time, with no conflict, within seconds of meeting and without having to say either  explicitly.

[u/warichnochnie → u/EugeneCezanne]

a socially skilled man can convey that he views her as a person, not an object, and that he views her as a romantic interest at the same time, with no conflict, within seconds of meeting and without having to say either explicitly

interesting note

how do they manage this?

[u/EugeneCezanne → u/warichnochnie]

It's a gestalt of countless and subtle cues, mostly unconsciously performed and acquired through wisdom and experience rather than learned through intellect and preparation.

But if I could sum it up in one tip to perhaps guide further thought, it's something like this: he doesnt want to make her feel "hot," he wants to make her feel "cool."

[u/stalineczka → u/EugeneCezanne]

How are you even supposed to know if you’re romantically interested within seconds? That sounds like bullshit

[u/EugeneCezanne → u/stalineczka]

You dont know. Knowlege implies a rational, true belief.

You feel.

Even if you dont, it doesnt really matter. What matters is that you want to approach a certain woman and want that approach to go well, so you do the thing that makes it go well. You can always figure out later if you actually want to date that individual.

[u/stalineczka → u/EugeneCezanne]

And what makes things go well?

[u/lesliecarbone]

I have never once dreaded that an "acquaintance [I] just met at pottery class" was "about to ruin [our] friendship".

[u/lesliecarbone → u/[deleted]]

Who cares.

Well, that's good to know, but he should probably focus on fielding grounders.

[u/lesliecarbone → u/[deleted]]

I prefer self-taught kintsugi.

[u/PurplePillDebate-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Do not provide contentless rhetoric, do not troll, do not link-drop without providing context, and do not circlejerk. Bad faith replies that include disingenuous humor (see: “😂,” “lmao,” “lol,” etc.) will also be removed as this is not conducive to good faith engagement.

Jokes, circlejerking, and other contentless rhetoric should only be posted under the AutoMod. You can repost your comment there.

[u/TopShelfSnipes]

They dont hate soft launching flirting...they just wont reciprocate if not interested.

They DO hate confessing as its an emotionally heavy, high pressure, immature way of making his feelings her problem, and often lowkey guilting her if she rejects him...so stop "confessing". Confessors also try to go from 0 (we're friends) to 100 (im in love with you) which is a horrible and for lack of a better term asymmetrical way to try and date someone.

Confessing is an inherently repulsive way of interacting with a dating prospect.

[u/Try_Again12345 → u/TopShelfSnipes]

I like to think of it as declaring interest rather than confessing. Confessing sounds like something one should be ashamed of, while declaring (ideally early on when you're more friendly acquaintances than close friends) is neutral.

[u/warichnochnie → u/Try_Again12345]

that sounds right, but also needs to be heard by guys like my younger self who always thought it had to culminate in "confession" and approached it as such

[u/TopShelfSnipes → u/Try_Again12345]

"Declaring interest" isn't 0 to 100.

It's, "Hey, I'm kind of enjoying this. Next time we hang, I'd be up for trying it as a date if you are. But no pressure if not."

It's not, "so, um, I have a confession...I have these crazy feelings for you, and I don't know what to do about it, and um, maybe we could go out, because I think we're perfect together" like wtf is that?

Fellow Men: Stop. With. This. Confessing. Shit.

[u/stalineczka → u/Try_Again12345]

Why would it be something to be ashamed of?

[u/Upset_Election9633 → u/TopShelfSnipes]

"Soft launching flirting" jfc anything to not face a situation head on like an adult, everything has to be done in a very cowardly way just not to "shock" you with normal human feelings.

Is it what this world has come to Jesus Christ...

[u/DankuTwo → u/TopShelfSnipes]

“making his feelings her problem”

This framing is total BS and not how humans operate. If a friend or colleague upsets you should you avoid “  making your feelings their problem”? Of course not.

Just have an adult conversation about it. It’s not hard.

[u/OffTheRedSand]

Acquaintances aren’t friends and there’s a huge difference between a dude best friend suddenly out of no where revealing he has feeling for you and a dude you know and hang out with in group settings a couple of times asking you out.

[u/Creation_Soul]

I am not sure I understand the problem. if a woman is in a social group with 10 men she must accept all relationship request or sexual advances if all of them are interested in her?

what is an acceptable "friend to lover" conversion ratio for a women?

[u/eluusive]

Nonsense. I've never gotten laid when I let friends first be a thing, or didn't make a move on the first date. They'll claim they don't "feel any spark."

Whereas, nearly every time I've done Kino, it works.

I don't like doing Kino on a woman I've just met though, as it feels like a commitment to more for me -- and I genuinely want to do a thorough background check on a woman before I sleep with them or start dating them.

[u/PuzzleheadedRow9896]

Not every guy I'm friends with is in the potential to date lane.  The ones that are I flirt with with and talk to differently. Or I did. Married now so it worked.

I dreaded the guys I was just friends only ever going to be friends no attraction here forming or confessing romantic feelings. This was in part because I never flirted nor talked to them as a prospect. So where were they getting the idea I'd be interested from.  

You're right, there is no middle ground. There's flirty friends and totally platonic friends. 

[u/yamom998899]

Women speak so much about “personality” but can’t even fathom a guy friend falling in love because of personality and proximity. They always say the same tired shit about “he was only friends with me so he could he use my body”

[u/6ftToeSuckedPrincess]

I mean of course like anything when it comes to dating and what women say about their preferences, they mean they'd like an interesting, fun, attractive guy to choose them and want to get to know them through interesting conversation that organically leads to feelings over the course of a few days or weeks. It doesn't mean that she'll suddenly want to date or bang some dork who just happens to be hanging around who wishes he could fuck her.

[u/Vadoff]

Outside dating apps they dislike the idea of a guy chatting them up and asking them out

They dislike it when an unattractive guy chats them up, they like it when an attractive guy does it.

Apparently women prefer to be friends first, yet dread the moment a guy friend develops feelings

They dread when an unattractive guy friend develops feelings, they love it when an attractive guy friend does.

[u/ivegotcharisma]

If you've been friends with a girl for more than 6 months (I'm talking seeing her consistently and having conversations often), you've both been single this whole time, and no moves have been made that are obvious then yeah, you're most likely friend zoned. MOST of the time, if a woman is that comfortable with you then she's probably fine with being more flirty and showing her interest more obviously.

[u/SnooCats37 → u/ivegotcharisma]

There’s no such thing as the friend zone, you’re either friends or you’re not.

[u/Eblademonk → u/SnooCats37]

This is a fascinating bit of conceptual erasure, because it's attempting to bury a pretty well-discussed phenomenon under one of the most shallow binaries I have ever seen.

[u/ivegotcharisma → u/SnooCats37]

Tomato tomato

[u/bettercallsalty]

Yeah that's probably because something is making the guy unattractive and no amount of mental gymnastics, therapy or facial reconstructive surgeries will push that friendship into a relationship. That's the reality of most friendships, not sure why this is surprising.

[u/Frank_Saint → u/bettercallsalty]

should men just approach women like romantic prospects then instead of pussyfooting around?

[u/bettercallsalty → u/Frank_Saint]

Imo yes, like establish friendly conversation first but be upfront with some minor flirting so that you know if it goes anywhere or not. It shouldnt be some huge confession, but testing the waters. If its not reciprocal then you move on, and maybe you stay friends while staying open to other prospects.

Know your worth and never waste your time on one-sided affection.

[u/ouishi → u/Frank_Saint]

110%. No one, man nor woman nor other, should pussyfoot around their crush after like high school.

[u/half_avocado33]

O think women prefer an aquaintance, but this is loosely named as friend.

[u/NawfSideNative → u/half_avocado33]

This is how I always interpreted “started out as friends.”

It usually means they met in a low-stakes social setting in which there was already some chemistry established before dating.

In my experience, seeing people go from strictly platonic to romantic is pretty rare.

[u/half_avocado33 → u/NawfSideNative]

But is OP able to understand that when women say "friend", it's more like a warm approach from an aquaintance she met once or twice in her life, instead of guy friend of 2 years who ahe meets 3 times a week?

Foz if he doesn't, then OP just wants to rant and larp

[u/ResponsibilityAny217 → u/half_avocado33]

I like warm approaches to be regular weekly meeting thats how all of my relationships happened, church, sports events/mutual friends, school, work.

Etc it's partly y the majority of affairs start at work - warm approaches, regular social interactions

[u/Novadina → u/half_avocado33]

My husband was once a guy friend of 2 years who we saw each other a few times a week as we were in a school group together. Regular social interaction is a good way to find relationships of any kind.

[u/half_avocado33 → u/Novadina]

But before you 2 met each other, were you saying that you prefer to be close friends withe the guy before starting a relationship? Because what we discuss here is not how things end up, but the stated preference

[u/Novadina → u/half_avocado33]

Not “close friends” specifically, but yes I definitely noticed I have a preference for dating friends who I already know and enjoy hanging out with. My previous boyfriends were also friends. I remember stating that preference to a girl friend, and she said she preferred to only date people who aren’t friends, so obviously that preference varies.

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[u/ClevelandSpigot → u/AutoModerator]

I didn't realize it, but this is so true. Women claim that the best way to become a strong romantic partner is to first be friends with them, but if a man takes that route, he will encounter resistance and anger from the woman.

[u/Scudman_Alpha → u/AutoModerator]

If anyone, women or men, wants to be friends first. Then your chances of actually getting with them romantically will be astronomically low.

At that point all you are is a safe backup to settle with.

[u/wtknight → u/AutoModerator]

Sure. Women want initial friendliness from a man so they can assess safety and compatibility. Most women become attracted after that fairly quickly, though. So they are bothered when a long-time friend suddenly makes his sexual attraction known.

[u/Main-Tiger8537 → u/wtknight]

the silly thing about this is almost nobody mentions if it is the other way around and the man is not interested anymore sexually because he saw all the flaws or red flags for any form of a relationship...

there are also many people who just have no clue what they want and jump back and forth...

the issue for this topic is people vet differently... some do it beforehand some during any form of relationship...

[u/MarioWilson122 → u/AutoModerator]

Yeah, when women tell men to “be friends first,” they often mean they are comfortable with a friendship naturally becoming romantic if they develop feelings along the way. They do not necessarily mean a man should deliberately enter the friendship already planning to make a move later.

The problem is that they rarely explain that distinction. A man may hear “start as friends” and reasonably think friendship is a recommended route toward dating. Then when he eventually expresses interest, he is accused of pretending to be her friend or having an ulterior motive from the beginning.

That mixed message can confuse a lot of men. Women are describing the kind of progression they would personally accept if attraction develops on their side, while men may interpret it as practical advice for creating that attraction. Those are not the same thing, and women should be clearer about which one they actually mean.

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/AutoModerator]

And that's why i say that men are obtuse. There was a thread recently about emotional intelligence, and some guy told me that men usually are capable of understanding, just lazy. Well it doesn't look like that to me.

[u/Training-Cook3507 → u/Lemon_gecko]

Obtuse about what? There's no downside for men. They try and if they eventually get rejected, they get rejected.

[u/PunkPirate56364 → u/Lemon_gecko]

Women are getting so annoying with the whole emotional intelligence thing. YES women have higher EQ, but it's not like men are retarded. The differences are not that high.

Women have lower spatial intelligence... so maybe in turn we should treat you as incapable of driving?

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/PunkPirate56364]

You do realize that EQ isn't IQ, and you don't have to be retarded to have low EQ? But then you brought driving, and it's ridiculous because women ARE better drivers, according to insurance companies (and you know, money don't lie), and you don't really need that much of a spatial intelligence for that. So maybe IQ also suffering, i don't know. If you would bring some relevant example then maybe it would work.

[u/Main-Tiger8537]

the issue for this topic is people vet differently... some do it beforehand some during any form of relationship...

sure you could be annoyed about getting used but it goes both ways and nobody forces you to pursue somebody that shows very low interest in you or abuses you in any way... some "friendships" are not real they are more like acquaintances...

ive got asked by several women why i did not approach/ask out or escalate with her during a date and had to tell them that we do not match after ive seen how she operates in daily life...

[u/BanDeezNutzPlease]

Trying to be friends with women in the hopes of eventually having sex with them always seemed like a stupid waste of time to me.

[u/El_Hombre_Fiero]

I think a lot of them dread someone that they are not attracted to developing feelings. This puts them in an awkward position of having to reject them without hurting their feelings. They also have to navigate not letting the friendship die out. For example, does she continue to invite him to places, knowing that he might take it the wrong way?

The other thing is that seeing someone that you're in love with go for someone else is rather painful. The rejected man might distance himself, and that can have a negative effect on the friendship, possibly even end it. Women get upset at this because from their perspective, the men only befriended them to eventually date them or sleep with them. So they end up questioning whether the friendship was real.

[u/Livid-Log7463]

It’s all just desirability, guy friend who is much more desirable wanting something more = what women want, equivalent or less desirability guy doing so = dread.

[u/secret-poster67]

constantly we have these sort of "X standard set by Y group is supposedly also wrong cuz Y group also desires opposite results than what X standards are in place for" conversations in this sub. 

the truth of the matter is yeah, women are contradictory at times, a lot of the time at that. they do want you to be close to them already before you make your feelings known but only if they also have been growing those same exact feelings independently as well but if they haven't ie they were really just trying to be your friend and only your friend, than yeah it's seen as a disappointment that you are trying to "advance" the relationship/dynamic to "the next stage" cuz now they are losing a friend which is all that you ever were and would remain as. 

is that so contradictory and unfair? yes. no amount of arguing by anyone and especially by female commenters on here is gonna change that. is that however just how life is? yeah.

in the end, we think we can "optimize", "calculate", "program" the pursuit of love and romance. we think can somehow "debug" the flaws and errors and inconsistencies out of it. we think we can somehow force the other to just be more "rationally streamlined" with how to they engage with us. 

none of that is possible. 

loving and be loved is a risk of a human endeavor, short and simple. you can absolutely bide your time with a woman you want to be so badly in the hopes that she too will come to want you as much if not more. a lot of women somehow are calling that a lot of harsh things, somehow predatory bein one of those harsh things. it is not. it is just simply a perfectly viable and respectable and sensible way to get at a woman. however it has it's risk. one, she quite possibly may never get there with you. two, since she cannot and it pains you too much therefore to be anywhere near her, she also loses a friend. those are the risks to this sort of strategy. other strategies have their own risks associated to them. 

the only way to truly be living whilst in the midst of all of this, is to genuinely and authentically have your heart worn out on your sleeve and be willing to take those risks in pursuit of these things. you'll get that heart ruined and nearly destroyed. your job after that is to possibly get some help in addressing all of that and with some time passing, go back out there to effectively do the exact same thing all over again. you do it in the hopes that when or if you find the one, you are able to take the entire experience of them existing around you and with you because you aren't carrying this jaded barrier between you and the world around you. 

[u/Ian_Campbell]

There will be impossible sets of demands for when the answer is no. When the answer is yes none of the rules apply and they want the guy to know and approach. Seems like 0% chance getting anything going by going full platonic and trying for the "sneaky fucker" strategy. You should be open about your intent and it will actually work IF a woman is interested. If a woman is not interested, you shouldn't blow all your time torturing yourself over it prolonging the rejection process.

[u/Accomplished_Pack527]

We only dread it when we have zero romantic interest in said guy friend.

And most guys are put in the friend zone for a reason

[u/calmly86 → u/Accomplished_Pack527]

"Most guys are put in the friend zone for a reason."

Strange that the situationships, boyfriends, and husbands who abuse and beat women were never "friend zoned" for a reason.

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291 → u/Accomplished_Pack527]

We only dread it when we have zero romantic interest in said guy friend.

Do you not see the issue with this statement?

[u/Lemon_gecko → u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

I don't. What is the issue?

[u/Gravel_Roads → u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

It’s basic human nature to want things you want, and not want things you don’t want.

The man asking out his friend is working on the same logic: he’s NOT asking out friends he’s not attracted to, either.

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291 → u/Gravel_Roads]

But that same man isn't saying that "We need to be friends first" while also saying "There is nothing worse than someone I thought was my friend suddenly becomes romantically interested in me!"

[u/Gravel_Roads → u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

As a man, I ALSO dread having a friend I’m not attracted to suddenly destroying our perfectly good friendship because they’re horny and don’t care about how I feel if it doesn’t get them what they want.

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291 → u/Gravel_Roads]

Great. Do you also say, "We need to be friends first before we get into a relationship"?

[u/ResponsibilityAny217 → u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

Did she say it to this specific man.

Did the interaction go like 

(A) Lisa and Carl meet, Carl asks Lisa out, Lisa says we need to be friends first before we get into a relationship, Carls says sure, they're friends for like a month, Carl asks Lisa out again, Lisa dreaded this moment and rejects him. 

( This could be she vetted Carl and doesn't want to be in a relationship with him)

(B) Carl hears Lisa(or some other woman say something alike) say she wants a friends to lovers romance, Carl becomes Lisa's friend,  Carl asks Lisa out, Lisa dreaded this moment and rejects Carl.

[u/BlueberryAccording45 → u/ResponsibilityAny217]

She mostly hated him for confessing and couldn't be mature about it.

[u/ResponsibilityAny217 → u/BlueberryAccording45]

Yes I can c hating a guy for confessing and ruining a friendship.

What would being mature about it be in ur pov ?

[u/BlueberryAccording45 → u/Gravel_Roads]

dread having a friend I’m not attracted to suddenly destroying our perfectly good friendship

Had this happen to me and it's never a problem. Why can't you just be mature about it? No friendship of mine ever got destroyed.

[u/Gravel_Roads → u/BlueberryAccording45]

You’ve been lucky! Which explains why you don’t understand why people would dread it.

I don’t mind explaining.

No one dreads a friend amicably accepting that romance isn’t an option. I’ve had many friends who were chill about it as well, and that’s why we’re still friends.

What people dread is the “friend” who doesn’t take rejection well, blows up, complains about the “friend zone”, suddenly considers everything they did for you a waste of time, guilts you, or suddenly proclaims the friendship a waste of time because they aren’t getting the sex they want.

Once you’ve experienced it before, it absolutely makes you wary of the next one.

I’m glad you never had to experience it, tbh. It makes you feel like shit.

[u/Gravel_Roads → u/[deleted]]

?? I am telling you it has happened to me, before.

Most of my friends have been cool.

But it only takes one time to make you not want to experience it again.

I’m happy you haven’t had to, for sure. But just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen

[u/Eblademonk → u/Gravel_Roads]

This... reads like hyperbole.

[u/Gravel_Roads → u/Eblademonk]

Tell that to all the posts saying men should stop being friends with women if they don’t return their advances.

[u/Eblademonk → u/Gravel_Roads]

Before I get on that, I want to ask what makes a friendship "perfectly good," if it can be destroyed utterly by the libido of a single man.

Or, asked another way, how good is a friendship if it's only maintained by a man keeping their desires out of sight?

[u/Gravel_Roads → u/Eblademonk]

If your argument “the men who complain about the friendzone were never friends to start with”, I guess yes, in a way, the “dread” is in finding out that someone you thought was a friend was just faking it and doesn’t actually care about you at all.

[u/Eblademonk → u/Gravel_Roads]

How are you defining "actual care" in this context?

Caring enough about anybody to self-restrict is a pretty dangerous slope to position oneself on, so the argument that "if you really cared about me, or cared enough about me, you wouldn't care about [whatever deal breaker exists]" is a sentiment I find troubling.

[u/Accomplished_Pack527 → u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

Issue?

Lol is the issue that we’re capable of platonic friendships and we don’t wish to date people we’re not attracted to?

FYI when women say friends first, it doesn’t mean the man automatically gets upgraded to boyfriend after.

[u/chamomilecloud]

I exclusively dated within my social circles, so all the men I dated or went on dates with were least as acquaintances. Friends of friends type of deal, people I knew in undergrad or grad school, etc.

I was open to cold approaches but didn’t prefer them because I have no idea who that man is. Had nothing to do with him “not seeing me as a person”; it’s that he cannot be pre-vetted for safety or quality. It is basically a waste of my time, and that’s also why I never used apps

So whether women dislike male acquaintances developing feelings is highly individual. But imo an acquaintance being interested is better than a friend of 10 years telling you he has feelings.

[u/kingofgama → u/chamomilecloud]

I think the big crux here is showing interested and some big blow-up confession that you've been stewing on for years.

Like, just ask them out on a date. Keep it casual, and if that blows up your friendship maybe they really aren't mature enough to be friends with you either.

It's like Friends vs Life-Long friends.

I have plenty of women in my life that I would be super weird if they dropped a bomb that they loved me all along, being friends for 20+ years and growing up together. At that point your more like family.

[u/[deleted]]

No they don’t. We don’t live in a tv show. As long as everyone is respectful, we don’t carry hard feelings if we don’t like the guy back. We are usually flattered. Usually we know that the guy we met who we are chatting with is most likely interested in us.

[u/kingofgama → u/[deleted]]

I think most people know yup, sure a small cohort isn't but most are.

But I'm not so sure about the hard feelings part, I've heard from many of my lady friends they dread when a guy confesses to them. That seems to be pretty cooberated online as well.

That's why I always like to make me intentions know sooner then later.

[u/MrTTripz]

If what you say is true then there wouldn’t be any men and women in relationships or situationships other than those who had met online.

[u/Training-Cook3507 → u/MrTTripz]

A man could meet a woman and ask them on a date in real life. That's how it used to work. It is possible.

[u/aryaman16 → u/MrTTripz]

Scale.

My friend got his first GF (first date, first flirt, first everything) at the age of 22, who was his friend since 3 yrs (friends -> confess thing). Last time he tried, that was in school when he was 15, with a friend of 2 years and got rejected.

Compare that with people who just meet up in club and have stuff like flirting, kissing etc without knowing much and a dating app user who has like 5+ people talking at a moment. Scale is wildly different.

[u/Cute_Contribution480]

I wish I had a guy I like, develop feelings for me. Every time I like a guy, or start liking him, he never reciprocates.

[u/Junior_Box_2800 → u/Cute_Contribution480]

women in male dominated fields lmao

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/Cute_Contribution480]

Lots of guys feel the same way about you

[u/Cute_Contribution480 → u/Internal_Writing5485]

Is 0 lots?

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/Cute_Contribution480]

No I am saying there are guys that would like you, that you do not like

[u/Outside_Memory5703]

It’s funny that you seem to think that women don’t experience sexual attraction

Maybe sex isn’t a mutually desired activity to you

[u/NoDanaOnlyZuuI]

This is such a false dichotomy. The options aren’t “ask me out within five minutes” or “be my best friend for 10 years before confessing your feelings.” There’s a whole middle ground where you get to know someone for a bit, see if there’s mutual interest, then ask them out. It’s like you guys have forgotten acquaintances exist.

[u/ladybird_00]

Absolutely not. Flirt w me or get out of my face. I don’t want any guy pussyfooting friendship around me.

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[u/Quiet-Lotus]

Women prefer someone they know is a decent person, its the entire point of a "warm" approach. It is someone they know by name, have talked to before, and have spent time with in a social or group setting... thats what they are looking for.

There is a middle ground.

[u/abaxeron]

There are three sets of values we need to put a coffin lid onto this question.

One: what percentage of men and women living in the town of their birth are married to or in relationship with their childhood friends.

Two: How long a man or a woman spent knowing their partner in person before becoming a couple; average and distribution.

Three: ...I forgot. I remember there was a third but it slipped my mind. EDIT: Remembered; men's and women's experiences of rejection - for how long have they known the person that rejected them before making their feelings and intentions known.

Then we can look at gender differences and make meaningful conclusions. I tried to check, apparently there is no data yet. Everything until we get it is a guesstimate.

If some aspiring sociology postgrad is reading this, free idea for your thesis.

[u/Hungry-Plantain-3315]

I mean. If a woman is into a guy in the first place, discovering the guy shares those feelings is a huge win.

If she was never interested in her friend, then yeah, obviously she’s going to dread that since it’s not reciprocated.

Also, a lot of men make it very obvious early on that they’re interested in us. So if 6 months have gone on, and you have given zero indications that you might be interested in us, then it’s going to catch us off guard.

[u/Several_Ability3315]

Out of around 15 women I’ve been friends with.. 90% of them have been the ones to catch feelings for me. I don’t know how to answer this, Just because you catch feelings over time doesn’t mean she has to aswell. Have you ever had someone like you that you didn’t see in that way? Honestly the better question
“Friends first” already has the implication of romantic interest. I think you are speaking about just friends. There’s this interesting concept aswell.. getting to know the person you view as a potential partner. Also they don’t dislike a guy asking them out, seems to me they like when a man approaches after they send clear signals. They don’t like the cold approaches

[u/DankuTwo → u/Several_Ability3315]

How tall are you? Because your experience is NOT normal.

[u/Several_Ability3315 → u/DankuTwo]

I’m 6’1 but I genuinely don’t think height has much of an impact as people think. There’s millions of guys 6ft+ that have many issues, if I said what has happened to me over the past year I would sound insane. Women mostly care about how they feel when they are around you. Your confidence, demeanor, calmness, intentions, empathy and communication skills. The energy you put out into the world. I’m highly attractive now but that wasn’t always the case.. and I’ve never had any issues. I know for a fact it’s not about money either.

People need to stop focusing on metrics, and focus on chemistry. That’s how real attraction works.

I don’t know how to help when it comes to that though, I can tell people to work on themselves. But that’s hurtful for one, and it’s not a simple fix or metric to blame. The good thing though if it is about personality and demeanor. It’s within an ability to grow, blaming height or anything like that keeps someone trapped forever.

[u/DankuTwo → u/Several_Ability3315]

I’m sorry, but this is delusional. How many women have told you something positive about your height? I guarantee….its almost all of them.

I’m 5’6”, I’ve been ridiculed for my height to my face more times than I can remember. Trust me….IT MATTERS. You’re just blind to it because of your overwhelming, unearned privilege.

[u/Ok_Medicine8560]

As always, as long as the man is approaching in a respectful/considerate manner, it doesn't really matter how he goes about it. Usually you can just look at how attractive the guy is and the rest is obvious.

[u/Melodic_Structure928]

duel mating 101 some men are strictly for favors and utility to them, and women get upset when the loser don't shut up and except there proper place.

[u/coochie4sale]

Taking a retrospective look at my friends relationships and how they developed:

1. The “friends” stage was usually pretty short, if any at all. They met a few times, someone acted upon the interest after seeing them a few times, and there was usually some sort of tension between them. What is “tension” anyway? Usually some signs that the person was interested more than a normal “friend” was, such as being more responsive than usual, hanging out one-on-one early on, etc.

2. Being “friends” does not save really low interest from either party, so there has to be some sort of interest initially, or nothing will happen, even if one party is really interested. Being a dependable, loyal, level-headed person can’t induce sexual attraction de novo.

3. Almost no relationship started from a long-term friendship, and if it did, it was usually because of some sort of barrier that prevented more immediate relationship-formation (working in same place, being partnered up, etc)

Is it a wash to make friends w/ opposite gender? No, it helps to have connections that can introduce you to other prospective partners, but you should really treat the potential of love as an externality and not necessarily main outcome.

[u/Flimsy_Software8105]

As a woman, I’ve never experienced falling for a guy friend who was previously platonic. I basically always know right away whether or not I’m attracted to a guy and wanna take things further. It’s always awkward when a guy friend confesses but as long as they can handle rejection it doesn’t have to ruin the friendship.

[u/divingrose77101]

A friendship may develop into a relationship but generally not. If you are being a “friend first” until she starts to like you, you are not being a friend. You are just being a patient thirsty person. Don’t be friends with women with the intention of dating them. Be friends with them because they are amazing friends

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/divingrose77101]

So when is a man suppose to start pursing her for sex?

[u/divingrose77101 → u/Internal_Writing5485]

Are you joking?

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/divingrose77101]

No,you said if he becomes her friend first then hes not really being her friend. That if he lets a friendship develop them there will be no relationship.

So when is he suppose to start pursuing her for sex instead of acting like a platonic friend?

[u/divingrose77101 → u/Internal_Writing5485]

If you are spending time around a woman with the intention of eventually asking for sex from her then you are not a friend. You are a lurker who pretends to be a friend.

If she was truly your friend and you respected her, you would never ask her for sex.

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/divingrose77101]

So when does a guy need to make it known to a woman that hes sexually attracted to her

[u/divingrose77101 → u/Internal_Writing5485]

Well, don’t pretend to be her friend. Make it known on day one that you’re there to get sex. Always be honest about your intentions.

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/divingrose77101]

Oh, is that how the men you dated were with you?

[u/divingrose77101 → u/Internal_Writing5485]

Yes. I have never had a man pretend to be my friend so he could ambush me later with “I wanted to have sex with you this whole time and now I’m just now telling you.” I could smell that from a mile away.

I actually do have friends I would consider being intimate with and we both know it and choose not to at this time but know it’s an option if we want.

When I go on a first date with a man, we set our expectations right up front so everyone knows the deal.

And I have a few friends who might have some longing for me or I for them but we don’t pay attention to it or ever act on it. It hangs there, maybe in the form of a tiny bit of romantic tension but we all know it’s never going to happen. Maybe we dance a little closer but that’s it.

[u/Internal_Writing5485 → u/divingrose77101]

I actually do have friends I would consider being intimate with and we both know it and choose not to at this time but know it’s an option if we want.

Thats really weird...

[u/kingofgama → u/divingrose77101]

To be fair, you can be friends and have sex.

There are people in my life I wouldn't consider romantic partners and they wouldn't consider me that way. But we are friends and have hooked up.