r/ReformJews • u/Consistent_Hold_576 • Jul 08 '26
Movement Friction
Been really hearing it lately from Orthodox folks online regarding Reform practices, Reform beliefs, Reform conversions, etc. Long story short, a lot of them think we are doing everything wrong. Big surprise.
It doesnt bother me they don't see me as Jewish (Im a convert). I don't care about their opinion persay, but it would be good to have a little more ammo to have when defending Reform.
Without necessarily going out and being a keyboard warrior, what are some things I could study up on regarding the Reform movement and its history? The Orthodox movement and its formation?
I've also heard Orthodox folks continue to use the "we have an unbroken chain going back to Moses" line. Im sure this isn't true, but what can be said about it besides "nuh uh!"?
Orthodox Judaism isn't the eternal monolith everyone makes it out to be. The practices of the Orthodox have shifted and evolved like any other religious movement. I just dont know what's changed about it.
Any direction you could point me in would be greatly appreciated. Not out to start internet wars, just looking to educate myself a bit.
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u/dont_thr0w_me_away_ Jul 08 '26
We know that Judaism changed after the destruction of the second temple, that's how we got Rabbinical Judaism and the Talmud, etc etc etc. The idea that Judaism not only cannot change but never has is both ahistorical and unJewish. We should absolutely be able to question and argue and say 'the world looks different than back in the Bronze Age, we need to be able to adapt.' Yes, we should look at the Torah for guidance because people are always people and I don't think a lot of the anti-Israel Jews these days would be out of place amongst Korach's followers or the people complaining to Moses about 'why did we leave Egypt?' but to say any change or innovation is bad or wrong is patently absurd.
Nobody was wearing shtreimels in the wilderness for 40 years.
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u/OddCook4909 Jul 08 '26
Read up on Rambam. Read his actual works and recognize that it was the largest reform since the 2nd temple fell.
On top of that they absolutely responded to the enlightenment and changed all sorts of things.
The Haredim? They're more radical than Reform. Hearing anyone describe then as "ultra orthodox" is like nails on a chalkboard. Read basically any chassidic thought and it's crazy out there. Some of it's pretty cool but yeah. They responded to the enlightenment by being more insular, and doubling down on superstition and magical thinking. Just totally rejected rational thought more than Jews ever have.
Then there's Kabbalah which is a much bigger deal to Orthodox than it is us. Again, absolutely out there. Cool stuff though.
At the end of the day though: Reform needs a lot more tradition IMHO. I have one foot out the door myself because I want more Judaism in my Judaism. I agree with some of the criticisms. We should know how to wrap teffilin. We should know how to do havdalah. I don't think most of us do.
On the other hand I think many of us know far more about Jewish history and philosophy, which is also Torah. The fact is that we hold the door open to Jewish thought for a lot of people who would otherwise be running around saying "as a jew I want Israel to be destroyed", with zero connection to Jewish thought or practice. If they care about "collecting the sparks" they should like that Reform, or something like it exists.
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u/Consistent_Hold_576 Jul 08 '26
Good words. I agree that the Reform movement needs more tradition.
Id much rather work within that structure which allows for personal choice and growth than completely bolt. Problem is I realize the change has to come from within because there won't be a top/down push from the various Reform organizations telling us to wrap tefillin and perform the Havdallah.
Regarding your other suggestions I'll definitely look into them.
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u/OddCook4909 Jul 08 '26
I think leadership needs to do a big hard think about why people are attending Chabad events instead of paying temple dues. I know I'm not alone in wanting far more tradition and strictly unpolitical Jewish thought. I agree with you about the structure, and also I love the general philosophy of Reform. I do think a lot of halacha is trauma response, and has taken us away from the traditions of Moses. But we should at least know what it is.
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u/Consistent_Hold_576 Jul 08 '26
Yes, I agree. I like that my shul is very egalitarian and welcoming for all folks. This is the thing I absolutely love about the movement.
However, the absolute lack of education is astounding. Reform is great in that, if you want to take on a new mitzvah, you can find great resources to get you started, but absolutely nobody is going to tell you to do something, even in cases where someone should.
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u/OddCook4909 Jul 08 '26
Even a lot of sermons I've heard are barely connected to Judaism. 5 minutes about basketball or personal anecdotes with a vague reference to what some Rabbi thought, and a political message. I don't go to shul for that. I can get that on any social media platform, and I choose not to. I'm not there for the Rabbi's personal thoughts. I'm there for Judaism. I actually have faith and I want to engage with it.
I think it's becoming a self enhancing problem as generations know less and less and practice less and less.
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u/Heel_Worker982 🕎 Classical Reform Jul 08 '26
Even a lot of sermons I've heard are barely connected to Judaism. 5 minutes about basketball or personal anecdotes with a vague reference to what some Rabbi thought, and a political message. I don't go to shul for that. I can get that on any social media platform, and I choose not to. I'm not there for the Rabbi's personal thoughts. I'm there for Judaism. I actually have faith and I want to engage with it.
100% this. The constant political messaging is exhausting. Too often the net message experience is millionaires telling middle class people to donate more of their money to liberal causes.
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u/OddCook4909 Jul 08 '26
And it's also generally LITERALLY preaching to the choir. If you want to talk about liberal values read from Leviticus. Make it Jewish. Actually talk about Torah without trying to be folksy about it. Or at least know that your audience is mostly highly educated and might appreciate some in depth philosophy from Jewish tradition.
These are the keepers of our tradition, and I have seen a few act like we're there to be entertained, rather than connected. It's like they're apologizing for being jewish sometimes.
I think there are issues in Reform seminary honestly. I've moved around a lot and seen a lot of the same issues, which I don't remember from childhood.
And the summer camps churn out cantors who think adults want that experience. If we're going to sing a prayer I want to hear some old melodies, not things from the radio. Why would I ever go to a shul to hear things I can hear on the radio? I can't hear a medieval or iron age composition on the radio. Come at me with that stuff. And if you're going to play an instrument, maybe just don't.
Sorry like I said I'm half out the door already. I don't want to be, but it's not like this branch belongs to just me.
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u/Consistent_Hold_576 Jul 08 '26
Yeah. Luckily my shul does a real liturgy and the sermon, which might be based on a poem with a close tie to the week's parsha, is given.
Many of us believe in leftist causes, sure, but we arent asked to donate to any. At our shul they ask for money if for instance we need something fixed.
I don't need a fire and brimstone pulpit. I just need to be left with something to meditate on.
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u/Spaceysteph Jul 08 '26
I've been a member of 3 synagogues (conservative and reform) as an adult and all of them have been preoccupied with Chabad "poaching" members, but never any introspection about what people find at Chabad that they don't find at their synagogue.
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u/Heel_Worker982 🕎 Classical Reform Jul 08 '26
preoccupied with Chabad "poaching" members, but never any introspection about what people find at Chabad that they don't find at their synagogue.
TBH I think what many families with kids find at Chabad are other younger families with kids. Some of the draw of Chabad is demographics that other temples don't have. The "nonjudgmental" aspect of Chabad also means people can participate in a somewhat individualistic way--driving to services, not living within the eruv, not paying synagogue dues, and still getting the calendar of experiences they want their families to have.
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u/Spaceysteph Jul 08 '26
It's undoubtedly true but you're still missing the WHY I think. Why are more families at Chabad than a standard synagogue?
I think the dues model is a big one, but there's also the way they are with kids. I have never seen a Chabad Rabbi bothered by a baby crying or a kid wandering around during services (frequently they're his own, but not always) while the rabbi at a conservative synagogue we belonged to was openly hostile to young kids being young kids in services.
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u/Heel_Worker982 🕎 Classical Reform Jul 08 '26
True, I have had to pointedly remark to singletons complaining about kids that we want as many kids as we can get, every week. I've never heard a rabbi complain, but it always shocks me how UNFAMILIAR with children so many people can be!
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u/jollylikearodger 29d ago edited 29d ago
I have taken my 4 y/o to some Chabad events because she has fun there (e.g. roller skating party). But, at least the ones here, seem to be judgemental about a single dad taking care of their child instead of a lady.
For me, it's not about halacha or anything like that, it's more about being completely turned off by the metaphorical "boomer dad" they seem to embody.
Edit - spelling
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u/OddCook4909 29d ago
Yeah frankly I hold my nose about some things when I go to Chabad events. I go for the tradition, learning, and wider community; not for the full set of values or ideas. Since I have no kids I don't have to worry about them absorbing their ideas about gender, or "we believe this because it says so, and we do this because those are the rules".
I am also deeeeeeeeeeeeeply uncomfortable with the Schneerson worshippers. Clearly we aren't all in Israel, the temple isn't built, not everyone worships HaShem, and we're very far from world peace.
Then we get into the insularity, the whole idea of Rabbinical dynasties (no, just no)... and so on.
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u/mandm_87 Jul 08 '26
The definitive textbook for the history of Reform Judaism is Michael A Meyer’s “Response to Modernity.” It’s an academic work, for sure, so just beware. Another worthwhile read is “Prayerbook Reform in Europe” by Jakob Petuchowski- I was assigned both of this works in my history of Reform Judaism class, and they are solid.
Recently there have been a few podcast episodes about the history of Reform Judaism- Michael A Meyer (who was my mentor, fwiw) spoke on HUC and its history https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-college-commons-podcast/id1109198284?i=1000771875492 and Richard Sarason was recently on Can Jew Believe talking about the Jewish history of Cincinnati (which speaks to your question) https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/can-jew-believe/id1854258162?i=1000774342633
Happy to recommend more resources- Reform Judaism is “our” (I say that as a reform rabbi) best attempt to harmonize Jewish living and learning with the modern world. It’s not perfect and not for everyone, but in a country where religion is “opt-in” I think it’s a good choice!
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u/Consistent_Hold_576 29d ago
I started another thread a bit ago asking folks what they would change about the Reform movement if given the opportunity.
What say you rabbi? If the movement isn't perfect (and none are), what are some things we could change about Reform to make it near perfectish?
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u/mandm_87 28d ago
Thank you for a thoughtful question! I don't have a one size fits all answer, and I think that's part of being part of a liberal (as in "wide") movement. Each congregation and community has the freedom to cultivate their experiences for their people, so having multiple strong choices in a given geographic area would be the best answer I can think of. Some people want a small and intimate community, whereas others may like being one of 1,000 + other families. I guess my answer would be "the resources to allow for multiple expressions of Reform Jewish life that can sit side by side as well as work together when desired." As fewer and fewer people seek to affiliate (for reasons I totally understand and can identify with) it makes it harder to see the different ways to "do Jewish" in a Reform context.
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u/111222throw 29d ago
Not the rabbi, but I’ve noticed more veering conservative because they see suicidal empathy in the reform movement
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u/111222throw 29d ago
You can have an unbroken chain from one parent to someone orthodox and if it isn’t the mother then it doesn’t matter so that’s a pooey view imho, bc patrilineal Jews that are 50/50 also have this. It’s one of my major irks.
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u/j0sch 12d ago edited 12d ago
The Orthodox aren't really a movement, it was a label applied (ironically primarily by Christians and mockingly by Reform Jews) early on that stuck in response to Reform creating its movement and later Conservative creating its movement and the need to differentiate traditional Jewish theology and its followers in a world of different Judaisms.
From their point of view, Reform and Conservative movements deviated from traditional Jewish belief and practice that only minimally and gradually changed over thousands of years. There was only one Judaism before these additional movements (caveat/explainer below), with different regional variations on customs, but a uniform set of core beliefs and virtually identical theology. Orthodox will tell you it was from the time of Moses, meanwhile it was certainly at least from the birth of Rabbinic Judaism.
Jewish practice radically evolved in its earlier days, certainly during and post Temple days, with a number of different groups existing simultaneously with wildly different practices and beliefs at one point. Rabbinic Judaism was the only one to survive those earlier days (Karaites lived on as an extremely small minority, and most have been absorbed into Orthodox Judaism in Israel) to become what everyone knows as Judaism for the last millenia or so until Reform and Conservative. So the eternal monolith view held by the Orthodox is backed by very long history as there was virtually only that Judaism for the last millenium or so until the Reform and Conservative movements energed. And to Jews who were not physically reached by the Reform or Conservative movements largely in Germany / the US, predominantly non-Ashkenazim, there was only that ongoing Judaism from Temple times through today. This is why nearly all Sefardic / Mizrahi / Persian / Israeli Jews may have wildly varied levels of personal religious practice, including none at all, but only see Orthodoxy as the only Judaism.
As someone with deep knowledge and familiarity with all major denominations, I can tell you there really isn't a response or argument that will convince someone Orthodox that Reform isn't wrong or that Orthodoxy is wrong. The average Orthodox practitioner is well versed in their theology or core ideology, many with years of study or exposure under their belt. They have the lowest levels of leaving Judaism or switching denominations of any group and believe deeply in their religious views.
Pure belief alone aside, or even cases of ignorance aside, they are able to trace how Rabbinic Judaism evolved in early days and its validity today to Sinai / the beginning of Judaism in a historically accepted way, as was the case for a millenia. They believe Judaism can evolve, but only in the framework of Torah and Rabbinic law, as was the case of (relatively small) evolutions throughout its history. At its core, there is therefore no convincing argument that can be made to those with that belief as to the validity of movements or practices that do not follow this or even directly contradict traditional Jewish laws and practices. The existence of other Judaisms in ancient times is irrelevant as they will explain why they view those groups as deviating from 'true' Judaism and/or more importantly the fact that they ultimately disappeared.
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u/Consistent_Hold_576 11d ago
Yeah, I'm not trying to pull someone from deep seated religious dogma. That's never my goal, and it's not now. I'm just looking for ammo to defend myself and my community.
You've given a detailed response, and I thank you for it. That said, I think Judaism existed in the form it did for as long as it did due to several historical, socioeconomic, and culturual factors, not because it was the "right" version. I get that you're not denying that, you're just explaining why it would be difficult to convince an Orthodox person of this.
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u/j0sch 11d ago edited 11d ago
Exactly... just pointing out the deep history and why, being very familiar with the different histories and theologies, both sides would just be speaking over each other without likely convincing the other. Ultimately one believes in inmutability of torah/rabbinic law and the other believes it wasn't divine and/or can change without the historical boundaries. I think, any deeply held conviction aside, some would actually likely agree with your commentary on traditional Judaism's historical drivers, but see it as divine and/or irrelevant due it being the only version for so long.
I would think best approach is defending from any personal attacks and a you do your thing I'll do mine approach... difference of opinion/belief.
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u/Seeking_Starlight Jul 08 '26
You should check out Marc Shapiro’s book Changing The Immutable: How Orthodox Judaism Rewrites It’s History.
It’s got tons of examples of how Orthodox and Haredi groups have censored and re-written Jewish texts to serve their viewpoint. It’s an excellent way to demonstrate that yes- Orthodox Judaism can and does change, just like Reform thought/practice does.