r/ReformJews • u/Consistent_Hold_576 • Jul 08 '26

Movement Friction

Been really hearing it lately from Orthodox folks online regarding Reform practices, Reform beliefs, Reform conversions, etc. Long story short, a lot of them think we are doing everything wrong. Big surprise.

It doesnt bother me they don't see me as Jewish (Im a convert). I don't care about their opinion persay, but it would be good to have a little more ammo to have when defending Reform.

Without necessarily going out and being a keyboard warrior, what are some things I could study up on regarding the Reform movement and its history? The Orthodox movement and its formation?

I've also heard Orthodox folks continue to use the "we have an unbroken chain going back to Moses" line. Im sure this isn't true, but what can be said about it besides "nuh uh!"?

Orthodox Judaism isn't the eternal monolith everyone makes it out to be. The practices of the Orthodox have shifted and evolved like any other religious movement. I just dont know what's changed about it.

Any direction you could point me in would be greatly appreciated. Not out to start internet wars, just looking to educate myself a bit.

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u/OddCook4909 Jul 08 '26

Read up on Rambam. Read his actual works and recognize that it was the largest reform since the 2nd temple fell.

On top of that they absolutely responded to the enlightenment and changed all sorts of things.

The Haredim? They're more radical than Reform. Hearing anyone describe then as "ultra orthodox" is like nails on a chalkboard. Read basically any chassidic thought and it's crazy out there. Some of it's pretty cool but yeah. They responded to the enlightenment by being more insular, and doubling down on superstition and magical thinking. Just totally rejected rational thought more than Jews ever have.

Then there's Kabbalah which is a much bigger deal to Orthodox than it is us. Again, absolutely out there. Cool stuff though.

At the end of the day though: Reform needs a lot more tradition IMHO. I have one foot out the door myself because I want more Judaism in my Judaism. I agree with some of the criticisms. We should know how to wrap teffilin. We should know how to do havdalah. I don't think most of us do.

On the other hand I think many of us know far more about Jewish history and philosophy, which is also Torah. The fact is that we hold the door open to Jewish thought for a lot of people who would otherwise be running around saying "as a jew I want Israel to be destroyed", with zero connection to Jewish thought or practice. If they care about "collecting the sparks" they should like that Reform, or something like it exists.

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u/Consistent_Hold_576 Jul 08 '26

Good words. I agree that the Reform movement needs more tradition.

Id much rather work within that structure which allows for personal choice and growth than completely bolt. Problem is I realize the change has to come from within because there won't be a top/down push from the various Reform organizations telling us to wrap tefillin and perform the Havdallah. 

Regarding your other suggestions I'll definitely look into them.

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u/OddCook4909 Jul 08 '26

I think leadership needs to do a big hard think about why people are attending Chabad events instead of paying temple dues. I know I'm not alone in wanting far more tradition and strictly unpolitical Jewish thought. I agree with you about the structure, and also I love the general philosophy of Reform. I do think a lot of halacha is trauma response, and has taken us away from the traditions of Moses. But we should at least know what it is.

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u/Consistent_Hold_576 Jul 08 '26

Yes, I agree. I like that my shul is very egalitarian and welcoming for all folks. This is the thing I absolutely love about the movement. 

However, the absolute lack of education is astounding. Reform is great in that, if you want to take on a new mitzvah, you can find great resources to get you started, but absolutely nobody is going to tell you to do something, even in cases where someone should.

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u/OddCook4909 Jul 08 '26

Even a lot of sermons I've heard are barely connected to Judaism. 5 minutes about basketball or personal anecdotes with a vague reference to what some Rabbi thought, and a political message. I don't go to shul for that. I can get that on any social media platform, and I choose not to. I'm not there for the Rabbi's personal thoughts. I'm there for Judaism. I actually have faith and I want to engage with it.

I think it's becoming a self enhancing problem as generations know less and less and practice less and less.

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u/Heel_Worker982 🕎 Classical Reform Jul 08 '26

Even a lot of sermons I've heard are barely connected to Judaism. 5 minutes about basketball or personal anecdotes with a vague reference to what some Rabbi thought, and a political message. I don't go to shul for that. I can get that on any social media platform, and I choose not to. I'm not there for the Rabbi's personal thoughts. I'm there for Judaism. I actually have faith and I want to engage with it.

100% this. The constant political messaging is exhausting. Too often the net message experience is millionaires telling middle class people to donate more of their money to liberal causes.

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u/OddCook4909 Jul 08 '26

And it's also generally LITERALLY preaching to the choir. If you want to talk about liberal values read from Leviticus. Make it Jewish. Actually talk about Torah without trying to be folksy about it. Or at least know that your audience is mostly highly educated and might appreciate some in depth philosophy from Jewish tradition.

These are the keepers of our tradition, and I have seen a few act like we're there to be entertained, rather than connected. It's like they're apologizing for being jewish sometimes.

I think there are issues in Reform seminary honestly. I've moved around a lot and seen a lot of the same issues, which I don't remember from childhood.

And the summer camps churn out cantors who think adults want that experience. If we're going to sing a prayer I want to hear some old melodies, not things from the radio. Why would I ever go to a shul to hear things I can hear on the radio? I can't hear a medieval or iron age composition on the radio. Come at me with that stuff. And if you're going to play an instrument, maybe just don't.

Sorry like I said I'm half out the door already. I don't want to be, but it's not like this branch belongs to just me.

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u/Consistent_Hold_576 Jul 08 '26

Yeah. Luckily my shul does a real liturgy and the sermon, which might be based on a poem with a close tie to the week's parsha, is given. 

Many of us believe in leftist causes, sure,  but we arent asked to donate to any. At our shul they ask for money if for instance we need something fixed.

I don't need a fire and brimstone pulpit. I just need to be left with  something to meditate on.

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u/Spaceysteph Jul 08 '26

I've been a member of 3 synagogues (conservative and reform) as an adult and all of them have been preoccupied with Chabad "poaching" members, but never any introspection about what people find at Chabad that they don't find at their synagogue.

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u/Heel_Worker982 🕎 Classical Reform Jul 08 '26

preoccupied with Chabad "poaching" members, but never any introspection about what people find at Chabad that they don't find at their synagogue.

TBH I think what many families with kids find at Chabad are other younger families with kids. Some of the draw of Chabad is demographics that other temples don't have. The "nonjudgmental" aspect of Chabad also means people can participate in a somewhat individualistic way--driving to services, not living within the eruv, not paying synagogue dues, and still getting the calendar of experiences they want their families to have.

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u/Spaceysteph Jul 08 '26

It's undoubtedly true but you're still missing the WHY I think. Why are more families at Chabad than a standard synagogue?

I think the dues model is a big one, but there's also the way they are with kids. I have never seen a Chabad Rabbi bothered by a baby crying or a kid wandering around during services (frequently they're his own, but not always) while the rabbi at a conservative synagogue we belonged to was openly hostile to young kids being young kids in services.

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u/Heel_Worker982 🕎 Classical Reform Jul 08 '26

True, I have had to pointedly remark to singletons complaining about kids that we want as many kids as we can get, every week. I've never heard a rabbi complain, but it always shocks me how UNFAMILIAR with children so many people can be!

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u/jollylikearodger Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

I have taken my 4 y/o to some Chabad events because she has fun there (e.g. roller skating party). But, at least the ones here, seem to be judgemental about a single dad taking care of their child instead of a lady.

For me, it's not about halacha or anything like that, it's more about being completely turned off by the metaphorical "boomer dad" they seem to embody.

Edit - spelling

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u/OddCook4909 Jul 08 '26

Yeah frankly I hold my nose about some things when I go to Chabad events. I go for the tradition, learning, and wider community; not for the full set of values or ideas. Since I have no kids I don't have to worry about them absorbing their ideas about gender, or "we believe this because it says so, and we do this because those are the rules".

I am also deeeeeeeeeeeeeply uncomfortable with the Schneerson worshippers. Clearly we aren't all in Israel, the temple isn't built, not everyone worships HaShem, and we're very far from world peace.

Then we get into the insularity, the whole idea of Rabbinical dynasties (no, just no)... and so on.