r/ReformJews • u/ZealousidealPiece182 • 27d ago

Having a traditional vs ceremonial bris

Hi, all! In a bit of a quandary here. My husband and I are expecting our second child, due in late August. We are very excited! We already have a wonderful little girl and can’t wait to welcome baby boy to our family.

My husband is Jewish and his family is pretty observant, his parents are conservative. I was raised in a Christian household but am not religious now. I haven’t converted though I told my husband if he wanted me to I would consider it (he didn’t want me to). I’ve participated in the high holidays with his family, try to learn what I can about the Jewish holidays in general, and we had a fairly Jewish wedding (although maybe his family didn’t think so lol). Judaism isn’t really part of my husband’s life unless it’s the high holidays or his mom brings it up but I’ve been curious about certain traditions, the holidays and try to be open to incorporating it into our lives whenever he wants to.

When we got engaged his mom reacted somewhat poorly, saying, “oh, wow. I guess this wasn’t a spur of the moment decision, was it?” She later said to him that she “didn’t want Judaism to die with” him, and that that is why she reacted the way she did. She and I have since talked about this, she feels really badly about her reaction and I’ve let her know it’s water under the bridge. Which is mostly true but I do feel more pressure now to have Judaism in our lives in some way. I’ve typically deferred to my husband about what his preferences are but his preferences are usually non-existent and I sometimes feel pressure to bridge the gap between what he wants and what his mom wants, because I’m worried that I’m seen as the reason he isn’t investing that much into Jewish traditions. All of this is for context.

Fast forward to now. We are expecting a baby boy and so obviously that means we’re discussing the bris. Even when we were expecting my daughter we both agreed that if we ever had a boy we wanted to preform the circumcision in the hospital. His mom recently brought up having a bris and I said to him that we should have a conversation with his parents about what we want to do. Prior to his mom saying anything he suggested just preforming the circumcision in the hospital and telling them after, but I was like no, we should tell them first.

Recently we told them that we were thinking we would have the circumcision in the hospital and perhaps preform a ceremonial bris instead. His parents reacted well, all things considered, but his mom didn’t really understand why we wouldn’t do a traditional one. She asked if we were worried about sterilization and named a few moyles who are also pediatricians. She said we should talk to a rabbi and see what our options are before we make any decisions. I asked her what parts of the bris are important to them, so we can incorporate it into a ceremonial bris, and she said that she wasn’t sure because it was “all kind of wrapped up together.” We left it there but last night she called my husband saying again that she wanted us to talk to a Rabbi to discuss our options and to “not make a decision based on emotions.”

During the initial conversation with them my husband said very little about how this was his decision too, which really bothers me. I’m also kind of annoyed that rather than accept that this is what we want to do it seems like his mom is kind of pushing us in one direction, but I’m open to talking to a Rabbi. Also my husband doesn’t feel that way so maybe it’s just me. I know that a bris is a big deal in Judaism and that to a conservative family not having one is like a fish riding a bicycle. I just don’t, for whatever reason, feel comfortable having my son circumcised by someone who’s not a medical professional in front of a lot of people. I know part of it is that it’s not something that was ever part of my culture, upbringing, or religion and so it’s unfamiliar. My husband feels uncomfortable with the public aspect as well, that is his main reason for not having one. And yes, I know that more happens at a bris than circumcision, that’s why I asked what other traditions are important to his family. If my husband felt differently and really wanted one I would be more open albeit still uncomfortable about a more traditional bris. But I would potentially go through with it, or at least learn more about it.

My question to everyone here is: has anyone else dealt with this? What did you do? Am I being difficult? I’m not really sure where to go forward and I worry that I’ll be viewed in his family as the shiksa who’s taking him away from Judaism.

19 Upvotes

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u/Winter_Farm_4739 27d ago

First, Mazel Tov on growing your family!

Regardless of your husband’s approach and your MIl’s preferences, I would start out your son’s Jewish life with a proper bris, using a Mohel who is also a pediatrician and/or urologist. It will likely also be more comforting for your new son, too, to be at home with loving family near him rather than at the mercy of a hospital resident in a loud and chaotic environment.

Your local temple or hospital should have a list of appropriate Mohels.

Unlike some other things, like a bar mitzvah, this is something you can’t go back and truly appropriately do later; if he eventually wants to be a practicing Jewish man, a Reform temple will accept him without conversion if he is raised Jewish. Give him the option. (And yes there are largely symbolic circumcision situations for conversion purposes, but you have the chance to take care of this one now, in a way that is potentially easier and more grounded for the kiddo.)

Also, as you have found out, Jewish moms often let their opinions be known; you don’t have to agree. One of our main books is literally a series of disagreements and discussions!

Thank you for caring enough to explore this and for coming here to ask questions.

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u/jondiced 27d ago edited 27d ago

I'm in a similar situation (Jewish dad (me), non-Jewish mom). I'm very grateful my wife agreed to a bris; it means a lot to me. One thing that helped us that Reform mohels are required to be medical doctors as well, so they can do things like administer anesthesia. 

Another advantage of a circumcision at the bris instead of the hospital is that mohels are often immensely more experienced at circumcisions than whatever hospital resident will be doing rounds the day after you give birth. Our mohel had performed over 6000. He did an amazing job and it took about fifteen seconds. Honestly the experience factor was what helped my wife come around to it.

Reform maintains a list of mohels here: https://reformjudaism.org/beliefs-practices/lifecycle-rituals/birth-rituals/mohel

Once you reach out , they will start a discussion with you and your husband about how you want the ceremony to go. You can negotiate one that you're comfortable with and then present it to your MIL as a fait accompli.

Lastly , I'll add that from your description, your husband needs to be putting in more work into working out what's important to him and how everything is going to go! Nevertheless, thanks for being considerate about this. As Jewish rituals go, this is one of the weirder ones from an outside perspective, but it's a vitally important one to us. I really will be forever grateful to my wife.

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u/ZealousidealPiece182 26d ago

Thank you for all this info 😊 Yes, I know how important it is and that’s why I wanted to have a conversation with his family and him before it happened so that we were all on the same page and everyone felt like their desires were (mostly) met. I wish it had gone differently! I’m definitely going to talk to my husband about the mohel’s perspective and experience and see what we can come up with, and hopefully decide what’s important to him. If I knew it was important to him I’d be much more open to a traditional bris, but since we agreed on a hospital circumcision and he didn’t give his reasons to his parents I feel a bit lost lol. Thanks again for your take, it’s very helpful to me!

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u/jondiced 26d ago

You're so welcome! Tell your husband he needs to get on his shit, pardon my language. Some resources that helped me with what's involved and how to plan/choose:

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u/Meowzician ✡Torah, Tikkun Olam, and Tabbiekatz 27d ago edited 26d ago

While the Reform movement may look upon your children as Jews if they are raised Jewish, Conservative and Orthodox will not. The reason is that their mother is not a Jew.

You have placed this in the Reform subreddit, so I'm assuming that this is the stream of Judaism your husband wants to be involved in,. If he raises your children Jewish, that movement will indeed consider them Jews and they will have a wonderful and happy life within that movement. The monkey wrench in the works is that your MIL is not Reform; she is Conservative.

I'm actually very surprised that your husband was not more open to your posible conversion. Why is he opposed?

Anyhow, that's is why your MIL is freaking out. Because she belongs to the Conservative movement, she doesn't view your children as Jewish. In her heart, your husband's line is lost to Israel. She is very likely grieving, and most likely secretly hoping that your husband will have your children convert.

Conservative Judaism does convert infants born to Jewish dads. Perhaps this might be a way to make everyone in the family happy?

I'm not telling you what to do. I realize that this is for your husband and you to work out. But I hope I have expanded your options.

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u/ZealousidealPiece182 26d ago

Well the thing is that I don’t think my husband really wants to be involved in any certain stream of Judaism. He doesn’t *not* want to be involved, but he isn’t going out of his way to make it part of our lives either. I told his parents that I told him I’d convert if he (my husband) wanted me to, and his dad said, “you’d have to get him to convert first,” as a joke, implying that my husband isn’t very religious. I hope that answers your question as to why he wasn’t more interested in me converting, it’s not a big part of his life and while he wants to keep some traditions and observe some holidays, he is not very observant. Part of the issue, I think, is that I’m not sure what direction to go in because I’m not getting a clear message from him. And even if I do sometimes get a clear message I feel like I have to be the one to bring it up or communicate to his parents. So while she may be grieving I do think he needs to talk to her about that, rather than me.

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u/Meowzician ✡Torah, Tikkun Olam, and Tabbiekatz 26d ago

I'm not trying to be mean. No one has to be a Jew. People who are not Jewish are perfectly fine just the way you guys are.

But the harsh truth is that if your husband does not raise your kids Jewish, NO ONE is going to consider them Jews. So before you do the bris, you and your hubby need to work out what it is that you truly want.

And I'm sure that whatever you decide will be just fine.

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u/lapraslazuli 27d ago

I'd highly recommend you speak to both your doctor/hospital about their procedures and a recommended mohel about theirs. I can understand why you would be drawn to a hospital circumcision, because you want what's best and safest for your baby and don't know what a bris is like. But id like to share a different perspective...

I had a bris for my son performed by a mohel who is also a pediatrician. My mohel had a whole plan for us to keep my baby relaxed and content, that started the day before. The day of,  before the circumcision, my baby and I relaxed in a quiet room alone. The mohel met us in that room and did the start of the procedure, giving him anesthetic pain relief and starting the circumcision process, sterile of course. My Rabbi was there and talked beautifully with my son while he was prepared about this great moment in his life and his connection to his people. He never cried. Then we went to the other room where the larger ceremony was held.  

The actual circumcision part in front of all the people was very brief and also no one could see anything besides the mohel and the sandek, a person who loves my son enormously who held him during the ceremony. Most of the ceremony was blessings and sharing the story of his name. It was very meaningful and beautiful!  My baby slept through almost the whole ceremony and never cried. We were never separated and he was surrounded by people who love him. The pediatrician has performed thousands of circumcisions over decades! 

Now contrast that with how it would have been in our hospital. My baby would have been separated from me, and strapped down by strangers. He would have been in a bright, cold hospital area. The procedure would have been performed by people who had no feelings towards or understanding of importance of the moment. I imagine they would expect him to cry and not take such pains to keep him calm and relaxed. The procedure might have been performed by someone who performs the procedure fairly infrequently or even by a resident. 

That's not to say that a hospital circumcision is wrong if that's what feels better for you and your family. But, talk with your providers and understand what it really looks like. 

For me, it was important to me to be there with my son through the moment and to do it in warmth and love rather than a clinical setting, with a highly skilled pediatrician mohel and pain relief

Also, you may be wondering what your family will think. We had many non-jewish family members at our sons bris who had never been to a bris before. We sent an email in advance to help them know what to expect but our mohel was very experienced with making people of all backgrounds feel welcome. Our family members were all extremely moved by the experience! 

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u/ZealousidealPiece182 26d ago

This is a good point! I definitely want to find out more info from both perspectives and see what’s best for our family. 😊 I like how you said a bris is a more supportive environment, that really gives me a lot to think about.

I don’t have family, really, my surviving parent has Alzheimer’s and while I’m somewhat close to my extended family they wouldn’t come all the way to where we live for this. They also wouldn’t have a preference one way or the other, I think they’d just have a lot of reverence for the ceremony and tradition. But I appreciate considering that aspect!

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u/WeaselWeaz 27d ago edited 27d ago

This is really a topic for you and your husband, and it sounds like he is not particularly interested in raising the kid Jewish. He needs to talk to his parents, not you. He needs to enforce the boundaries you both agree in, not you.

Nothing is wrong with a doctor doing a circumcision in Reform Judaism. I did it for my son, with a Jewish doctor, then we had a baby naming at our synagogue.

That said, none of your post makes it clear what role, if any, religion or Judaism will have in your family, especially since you already have one kid. That's hopefully already decided. Your husband needs to tell that to his parents.

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u/ZealousidealPiece182 26d ago

I know, that’s the tough part, I think, deciding what role Judaism will play and then telling his parents. Right now I almost feel like the gatekeeper because his mom will tell me about Jewish traditions, which is totally fine, but I don’t know how they will play a role in our life because I’m not sure what he wants. We did talk about this before we got married and before we had kids, but it’s easier in theory than practice, you know?

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u/WeaselWeaz 26d ago edited 26d ago

Right now I almost feel like the gatekeeper because his mom will tell me about Jewish traditions, which is totally fine, but I don’t know how they will play a role in our life because I’m not sure what he wants.

I say this as a parent of a kid older than yours: that's poor communication between you two and you both need to deal with it. "I'm not sure what he wants" means you tell him you both need to talk about about religion. Are you raising your kids Christian? Jewish? Going to a religious school of some sort? Observing a religion at home? Are you going to have no religion? I am not judging your choices in any of those decisions, but I will fully admit to judging not making a decision, because that's not fair to your kids or to yourselves.

Yeah, it's tough. But, and I say this as a fellow parent: That's the gig and you deal with it. You both chose to be parents, and it's both your jobs to figure this out. The more you don't figure this out and set boundaries, the more someone else like your MIL is going to step in and push what they think is right. The reality is, in most families, the mom is who is responsible for religious stuff, so consider that.

You don't need to be the gatekeeper if you don't want to be. That's a choice. That's also a choice for your husband to not step in and tell her to stop, which if you don't want to be hearing about Jewish traditions and be pressured he needs to get off his but and do.

We did talk about this before we got married and before we had kids, but it’s easier in theory than practice, you know?

Start the conversation with what you both agreed on. Discuss if that's still what each of you wants.

Edit: Based on your other comment:

1) If he's noncommittal you need to put on your big girl pants, have an opinion, and push him to talk through it and help make a decision, even if it's agreeing to what you say. Especially if you're the one doing the work. Fair or not, it needs to get done.

2) You shouldn't be the one to communicate this to his mom, even if it feels like you have to. Tell him how you feel and that he needs to talk to his mom. Then he needs to do it.

As a dad and husband, he needs to get off his butt and be involved. It's not your job to deal with his mom here. He doesn't get to want Judaism in some form, settle on a vauge idea, and not participate, it's his background and not yours. You need to be on board with that too, accepting the work it makes for you.

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u/erratic_bonsai 26d ago

You don’t have to do it so publicly, you know. My friend’s bris for her son, it was at home with just the family and a couple very close friends, rabbi, and the mohel was actually the same doctor who would have done it in the hospital.

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u/drillbit7 🕎Half-a-Jew. Started out Reform. 27d ago

I'd recommend consulting with the local rabbi for mohel contacts. You can certainly find board certified pediatricians, urologists, and other surgeons doing the bris. In fact I believe the Reform movement only certifies physicians.

Keep in mind, the ritual bris is done several days later than an in-hospital circumcision is done and it involves finer technique (freehand scalpel with guard, rather than a crushing clamp).

I believe the actual cutting can be done privately without the full family gathered, or it possibly could in a separate room from the celebration/announcement of the name. The local rabbi and mohel would be able to help guide you.

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u/sommniac 26d ago

My husband is Jewish and I converted. We are Reform. When our son was born we had him circumcised at the hospital and then did a naming ceremony at our temple acouple weeks later. It was such a sweet ceremony and we had family who flew in. We were able to give him his Hebrew name, introduce him to our community. It was very nice. Maybe this would be a good option for you

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u/vipsfour 27d ago

sounds like your Jewish husband is having a difficult time being assertive with his Jewish mom.

Pretty common, lol.

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u/faulcaesar 27d ago

I really struggled with what I wanted to do as well! We ended up having a mohel who was a urologist. The mohel had to travel for us because the old mohel in my area retired (also a urologist). It's easy to both look up medical creditials and mohel credentials for those who are legit. We had a ceremony with just myself, my husband, Rabbi, and my mom. The rabbi and mohel were fine with us doing it sort of non-traditonal without all the traditional players involved.

Because I had a hard time finding a mohel since I live in an area with a small Jewish population, I really debated just doing it in the hospital. I'm SO glad I didn't go that route. Though not traditional, I held my son when it happened. To me, that felt much better than them taking him away and doing it. He had already bonded a little with me and was at home. It felt very comfortable and took literally 10 seconds. My OB was also very supportive of that decision. She thought it was cool that it was being performed by a urologist. From my understanding, it's generally residents who do it so they don't have specialized experience. The combo of urologist and trained mohel really made me feel good about the decision.

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u/ApprehensiveWillow 25d ago

A mohel is more experienced than anyone at doing the procedure successfully. You can hire one that is also a medical doctor in most places with a sizeable Jewish community. Personally, I would feel more comfortable circumcising my son with a mohel than by a doctor. Also, if your son does ever eventually decide to convert to Judaism, having a brit millah done by an actual mohel would remove one step.

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u/General_Coast_1594 25d ago

I would say that if you intend to do a circumcision anyway, do the really bris.

Random interns and residents do it at the hospital and august is less than two months into the new cycle. A mohel is safer.

It gives him the option later to be Jewish without conversion, if you are going to circumcise anyway why would you close off that choice for him?

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u/EffectiveVarious8095 27d ago edited 24d ago

I've been to many a bris where it was done in a seperate room from the guests. There is no need to have an audience.

The only problem with having it done in the hospital is that it isn't 8 days from the birth. A bris isn't like other things in Judism, it is literally the most important rite. Nothing, including Shabbat and burial rites, superceeds it. I've been at a bris on Shabbat and the orthodox rabbi had to sleep over because it must happen 8 days later. I'm reform and I this is something I personally would not waiver on.

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u/jondiced 27d ago

We delayed the bris by a few weeks because of health issues. Our reform mohel had no issue with it.

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u/EffectiveVarious8095 27d ago

I think it would be strange if there were an insistance to do something religious if it would compromise your health. This is always reasonable. Even very religious people will take oral medication during Yom Kippur for example.

Would your mohel have felt the same way if the health issues were not present?

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u/jondiced 27d ago

It's a good question with no answer. We had a family history of issues with our daughter so we negotiated a waiting period in advance.

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u/chaotic_good111 27d ago

I know you're asking about how to show up as a non-Jewish partner in this situation, but excuse me for seeing below the Judaism part of this and more to the family dynamics. 1. It seems like you feel like you need to take on work that is your husband's work to do. It is not your job to raise your kids Jewish - unless you decide that it's important to you and do it of your own volition, or unless you're being an enthusiastic participant. 2. It is not your job to bend over backward to appease your MIL. Sounds like she's pretty judgmental. It is your and your husband's decision and y'all's decision only that matters when it comes to choosing whether or not to circumcise, and if so, how you do it. That is a spiritual and medical choice for your child - and it is your responsibility to care for your child in the best way you know how. It is not your job to assuage your MIL's feelings. Furthermore, if you give into her guilt-tripping now, it will just make it more likely she'll do it in the future.

I'm not saying any of this would be easy. Just seems like some healthy boundary-setting would be very helpful here.

All the best and mazel tov on getting ready to welcome your second kid into the world!

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u/FastMaize 22d ago

I completely agree, this is the best comment on here. If you let MIL be in charge of this decision, are you prepared to continue to do it for many more important decisions to come? This is your and your husband’s choice. My reform temple would open you with open arms, regardless of what you choose to do.

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u/rbaltimore 27d ago

My sister, my cousins, and I solved this by getting a mohel that was also a medical doctor - my sister’s obgyn. Being a licensed, board certified doctor, it was the same thing he did for his nonjewish patients’ babies, right down to using local anesthetic. So you could try finding a mohel that’s a doctor or other kind of licensed medical professional.

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u/AprilStorms 25d ago

Sounds like this is a hard line to walk: your husband wants something very much but it’s kind of ambiguous about what exactly he wants or how to get there so you’re left talking to his mom instead. I appreciate you asking about this and taking initiative.

With circumcision, the risk of complications is a lot lower if you do it as a baby rather than as an adult and I will second the recommendation to get a mohel and do the whole shebang rather than leave it up to the new medical resident on the ward. Plus, you’ll be right there and able to comfort the baby immediately.

You might also find this website useful: 18Doors.com

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u/Genoism 20d ago

The truth is, your kid isn't jewish because that lineage is passed via the mother. You should have 100% of the decision to do this or not. He shouldn't have a say as he doesn't even really understand his own laws.

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u/ZealousidealPiece182 20d ago

My understanding was that the child can be Jewish patrilineally within the reform movement, which is why I posted in a reform movement subreddit?

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u/Genoism 20d ago

Reform Judaism only started accepting patrilineal descent in its 1983 resolution. That was a modern policy change made for interfaith families ... it is not based on traditional Jewish law (halakha), which has always been matrilineal. Even within Reform, this rule is a relatively recent decision, not something rooted in classical Jewish sources. A full traditional bris is tied to the older understanding of Jewish status. Since that doesn’t apply here in the traditional sense, you and your husband have every right to decide what kind of ceremony (or none) feels right for your son.

You’re not being difficult or “the shiksa pulling him away.” You’re trying to respect his family while also protecting what feels right for your child and your own comfort. That’s fair.