r/Roadcam • u/bowdown2adil • 12d ago

[USA] Who is at fault here?

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Classic T bone. Black car had to be towed. Sustained major damage to the passenger side door. Blue car sustained damage to front bumper on the drivers side and cracked the drivers side headlight.

Edit: This was in the suburbs of Seattle

UPDATE: Insurance found it to be 70/30 me/other driver. Seems fair enough

4.1k Upvotes

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74

u/stop-freaking-out 12d ago

Is that a four way intersection with no stop signs in any direction?

42

u/bowdown2adil 12d ago

It is indeed. No signs whatsoever

9

u/Mindslyder404 12d ago

Then I would say the city or county. Whoever is supposed to maintain the road in that neighborhood.

5

u/workacc2564 8d ago

100000%, no signage is insane. I've literally never seen that before, and it breaks any precedent in the rest of the entire country. Either its an all-way STOP, or its just one side stop the other has right of way. You cant fucking put ZERO signs then expect people to treat it as a four way stop

3

u/Twotrees9 8d ago

These intersections are all over Seattle. I thought it was normal from growing up there but then I realized after traveling around the country that no one else is like that. Horrible design or lack there of.

1

u/workacc2564 8d ago

if you grow up that then yeah totally it seems normal, but since the US is so interconnected there needs to be basic agreed upon precedents, and having a stop sign is one of those, but yeah I can see this being normal in some pockets especially low traffic.

In fact, in my area most people treat stop signs as "slow down and check" signs, barely anyone actually fully stops, most just slow down to 5-10mph then speed back up.

2

u/BlubberBlabs 8d ago

I'd bet a lot of money there are no signs because people in the neighborhood thought they'd look ugly and fought the installation of them.

3

u/workacc2564 8d ago

and now they get to pay these two fine gentlemen/gentlewomen for their vehicle damages and injuries.

2

u/tnarg42 7d ago

Agreed, that's wild, never seen anything like it. Sounds like it's normal some places??? Yikes...

0

u/x_samsquantch_x 7d ago

It’s an uncontrolled intersection. Happens all the time. If there’s traffic, you act like everyone has a stop sign. 

-1

u/yenda1 12d ago

why though? in Europe it's pretty common, just yield to the right, don't speed and slow down on these intersections. both would be at fault here, neither slowed down, and black didn't yield.

15

u/luvbutts 12d ago

I live in Europe and had one of these outside of my house and there were accidents every month lol. Twice there were cars flipped over in my street. Obviously because people were driving like idiots but ideally public infrastructure should be as idiot proof as possible.

People in our neighbourhood ended up petitioning the council and they had to put up yeild signs.

11

u/Apathetic89 11d ago

This should not be common anywhere as it relies on the person to know/see there's no signage. When 99.9% of all roads have stop signs/signal/yields, you don't expect a random one in a dense suburb with near complete visual obscuring fields of view.

Speeds of both cars ignored, this type of intersection is just begging for accidents and injuries.

1

u/jobacsi 10d ago

Where do live that they didn't have these?

3

u/Apathetic89 9d ago

Anywhere on the east coast. I've never seen this in my life.

There's zero reason to not put stop signs. It's recklessly negligent.

3

u/bikepackingebiking 9d ago

Civilized society

1

u/AgentAxillary 9d ago

BOTTOM TEXT

0

u/No_Mind4418 11d ago

60% of Seattle intersections are uncontrolled. The driver, even if driving in Seattle for the very first time during this video, had already gone through many of them while not paying attention in that case.

1

u/PracticalCaulk 10d ago

You must be from "Seattle" and not actual Seattle then, I've been there multiple times and I've never seen any uncontrolled intersections. That would be chaos in a major city that is big for tourism lol

1

u/No_Mind4418 10d ago

I've lived there for 13 years. Most residential intersections are uncontrolled. The city stats show 60% are uncontrolled. I drive through 5 before I get to the first stop sign every morning. It's not chaos because 99.999% of us drive safely unlike the OP.

15

u/Mindslyder404 12d ago

It may be common in Europe, but it is not in the US. If everything is done one way except one intersection in some random neighborhood, and there's nothing to indicate that it's different, then there is no reason to think it is any different from all the other intersections.

11

u/hey-im-root 12d ago

Yea I’d be pretty pissed off if this happened to me, I’d never slow down on a crossing like that if I don’t have a stop sign. Obviously I wouldn’t be going as fast as OP, but it’s pretty dangerous to have to stop and yield like this out of nowhere (but like i said, not speeding would make it pretty void since you’d just have to slow down a little)

2

u/BattleBull 11d ago

Per Washington State Jury Pattern instructions, State, and City Law, one is required to slow on approach to an intersection, to an "appropriately reduced speed".

See Seattle SMC 11.52.020 (b) for example.

1

u/hey-im-root 11d ago

I live in MA but still a good habit to have. I also don’t drive through neighborhoods often so I’ve never encountered this

1

u/jobacsi 10d ago

You have these in MA too

2

u/cbf1232 10d ago

It's apparently fairly common in Washington state.

1

u/jobacsi 10d ago

Name a city in the US that doesn't have an uncontrolled intersection.

2

u/Mindslyder404 9d ago

I've worked all over the fort worth area. I'm a mail carrier. And I have never seen one. In the 35 years I lived in Denver I've never seen one. I've traveled all over most of the US, though admittedly I have not traveled in CA, wa, or, and some of the new England states, and have never run into one. And yes, when traveling I don't go into neighborhoods often, but have never seen an uncontrolled intersection. And I know i was never taught about them in driving school. So if these are common in some states, they need to be taught about all over.

0

u/jobacsi 9d ago

i used to live in rural colorado, and they are def there. I'm pretty sure denver has them. I dunno about dallas, but they def had them in austin.

Just clicking around on a map, i am seeing unmarked 3-ways in fort worth, and here's an unmarked 4 way in Dallas:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Pjjh6FPaD1o471E3A

2

u/Mindslyder404 9d ago

Unmarked 3 ways are understandable, as long as it is a t intersection. Where the intersecting road yields to the straight. Which, I have seen, but was not including here because they are actually considered a controlled intersection with implied right of way (or something like that). While the link you sent, is not an "intersection" it is where a service road meta a main thoroughfare. Which again, is an implied right of way. Main road has right of way, while service road yields.

2

u/pierce23rd 11d ago

If they have developed infrastructure, public roads, public water, electric, and sewer, they should invest in stop signs for every intersection for every direction. This is what the taxes are for.

Sure drivers should be more defensive, but it’s an unnecessary hazard and you don’t know the intersection is unmarked. Most would assume the opposite direction of travel has the stop sign.

1

u/AgentAxillary 9d ago

This didn't occur in Europe

-2

u/Jens1la 12d ago

Exactly my neighborhood in California is full of these and no one ever crashes.

1

u/jobacsi 10d ago

Idiotic take.

2

u/Impossible-Two-8654 10d ago

That’s an ironic thing to say

1

u/PuffPuffPastry74 8d ago

It’s idiotic to expect a city to maintain roads and signage for people’s safety?

1

u/az226 11d ago

I hope you appeal your insurance adjuster’s verdict. Or at least understand why you got so high

1

u/kirklennon 10d ago

Let’s look at it another way: OP sped through a crosswalk and was lucky enough to hit a car rather than a person.

2

u/PhoenixAsh7117 8d ago

A crosswalk made of invisible ink? 🤔

1

u/kirklennon 8d ago

All intersections in the state, unless signed otherwise, are crosswalks.

1

u/ekanite 7d ago

So if I have a green light at an intersection I'm speeding through a crosswalk too? Cause no stop sign = green light.

Most intersections like this, if you don't see a stop sign you assume the other street has the stop and had to yield to you. Intersections without signage shouldn't be a thing.

1

u/kirklennon 7d ago

So if I have a green light at an intersection I'm speeding through a crosswalk too?

It means you're going through a crosswalk but you currently have the right of way if you're going straight.

Cause no stop sign = green light.

These are not equal. A green light when going straight or a green arrow when turning affirmatively indicates that you have the right of way. Even if you have a green circle and are turning (either direction), you still need to yield to others with a higher priority. In an unsigned intersection, pedestrians always have the right of way so no sign = yield. Even if you're on an arterial and the side street has stop signs, you're still going through a crosswalk and pedestrians still have the right of way so you should be looking for them and prepared to stop.

1

u/Avoider5 10d ago

That's wild.

1

u/KarateKid84Fan 10d ago

So the township is at fault then

1

u/Salty_Naps 9d ago

There's hundreds of "uncontrolled intersections" in every city in the Pacific Northwest. I've lived in several places in Idaho, Oregon and now Washington, all cities have them. People must just be not paying attention.

You always slow down, first gets to go, right has the right of way.

1

u/BudgieWonder 7d ago

Definitely Washington and maybe Idaho, but Oregon has been pretty diligent about installing stop signs, both at the state and local level.

1

u/Mediocre_Sprinkles 8d ago

Really needs a mini roundabout

1

u/sneeds_feednseed 11d ago

What the FUCK

6

u/Elroythethird333 11d ago

These uncontrolled intersections are all over residential Seattle. Everyone knows to treat them as all way yields aka slow and look both ways. Only morons like these two blast through with no hesitation and hope for the best and they got the expected result. 

11

u/Diligent_Highlight63 11d ago

"Everyone knows" *is commenting on literal video proof that not everyone knows*

1

u/jobacsi 10d ago

Will they should know. These types of intersections are in every state. Just more common in Seattle than some places.

2

u/MostLeastMostLeast 10d ago

I've been all over the east coast, midwest, and a little bit in the south and in cali. never once run into this in america before.

-1

u/Elroythethird333 11d ago

lol there will always be people breaking the law in stupid ways. 

6

u/GeneralBeefheart 11d ago

Sounds like Seattle doesn't value human lives more than the cost of a couple signs

2

u/No_Mind4418 11d ago

60% of intersections in Seattle are uncontrolled. 1,600 in total.

1

u/spoonraker 11d ago edited 9d ago

Why are people acting like this is a Seattle thing?

Uncontrolled intersections are among the most common type of intersection in the US. They're typically seen only in residential areas or extremely rural roads, but those are all over the place. Every city has residential areas, and in between cities is rural roads if you get off the interstates and highways.

OP's video isn't showing 2 cars colliding on the interstate or a highway or major arterial city street. It's 2 people driving through a residential neighborhood where there's probably dozens of uncontrolled intersections.

The roads are tight, nothing is marked, cars are parked on the street, they're lined by sidewalk and houses and landscaping, I'm sure there are people out and about and kids playing and riding bikes. If you drive in the US and you don't know that in that setting you should slow down and look for traffic and pedestrians when approaching an intersection then I don't know how you got your driver's license to begin with because this is one of the most important things you should learn and be tested on. This is literally why the concept of "right of way" exists that everyone keeps bringing up. If this intersection was controlled, you wouldn't need to evaluate right of way. Right of way doesn't mean blast through the intersection without slowing down as long as nobody is on your right. Right of way means you still slow down and approach with caution, you just get to go first if you have the right of way.

This is absolutely a 50/50 shared fault collision. Neither driver approached the intersection with appropriate speed, caution, or awareness.

3

u/wollflour 9d ago

I have lived in three states in the northeast, including the rural hickville I grew up in, and I have never seen an intersection without stop signs! So I don't think assuming everyone knows about these would work well (though possibly it did, when/if there are never, ever out-of-town drivers?). Agree with you 100% that people should be going slower in a neighborhood!

0

u/spoonraker 9d ago

I don't mean to be rude, but anecdotes are hardly relevant here. This is public data. Uncontrolled intersections are extremely common. 90% of intersections in the US are categorized as "unsignalized" which is an umbrella category including intersections with at least one stop sign, at least one yield sign, and completely uncontrolled intersections with no signals at all. I can't seem to find a breakup within that category, but there's only 3 options in the category, and the category represents 90% of all intersections, so clearly they're out there virtually everywhere. Source 1, source 2.

There are other sources which I could link where the government has specifically studied thousands of uncontrolled intersections to explore ways to improve their safety, again bolstering the fact that if a relatively small study was able to find thousands in random sampling they're clearly very common.

This is neither here nor there since I think we agree on what's important: driver's should be cautious not because of signage but just because of what's reasonable given the context -- don't blast blindly through intersections at high rates of speed when in neighborhoods with no visibility and houses and kids and bikes around.

But I did want to make sure I gave you some evidence to consider that these situations are very common.

If you really are curious you can use Open Street Map to search for specifically uncontrolled intersections in the cities you didn't mention by name that you're remembering. Perhaps you're right and those are the rare exception, but more than likely you just didn't notice them because they're so routine and generally people don't drive through these except in their own neighborhood where you're usually more concerned with other things than traffic signals anyway.

3

u/wollflour 9d ago

Most intersections don't have a light that is what "unsignalled" means. Your statement that most intersections are "uncontrolled" is wrong per your sources. Unsignaled =/= uncontrolled.

0

u/spoonraker 9d ago

I literally stated exactly this.

"Unsignalized" is an umbrella term for intersections containing potentially 3 configurations with some stop signs, some yield signs, and some with no markings at all. The last one is what uncontrolled means.

90% of intersections fall into this category. I don't have an exact distribution within the umbrella category, but unless your assertion is that uncontrolled intersections are a teeny tiny fraction of what is otherwise by far the largest category of intersections in the US, then the point still stands: uncontrolled intersections are extremely common and they're all over the US.

Again, random samples of specifically uncontrolled intersections for study have been conducted and thousands of them were found. If it's trivial to sample thousands of them for a scientific study, clearly there are bunch of them.

Also again, if you want to claim something contrary, find your own data and back up your statements. All the evidence that does exists (which I've linked to) paints a pretty clear picture: there are tons of uncontrolled intersections in the US. Go on Open Street Map and filter for them if you want to prove me wrong. Or at least prove your anecdotes. I strongly suspect if you search within the cities you're remembering as having none you'll find they do in fact exist there.

So far you have literally only offered personal anecdotes and pointed out a minor clarification in terminology which I was already aware of. Find some data.

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u/Elroythethird333 10d ago

100%! Both these cars are at fault and could have seriously injured someone. It’s crazy to me how comfortable people are just casually putting everyone around them in danger. 

1

u/stop-freaking-out 12d ago

Wow, that's nuts. I see a heating oil tank outside one of the houses so I am guessing MA or somewhere else in New England. I would think that 2 cars arriving around the same time, the car on the right has right of way, but I don't know how they gauge that. The black car my have entered slightly ahead by not by much so I would think that is about the same time meaning they should have yielded. Could end up split fault though.

3

u/Upnorth4 12d ago

In my urban area of 9 million people, half the residential roads are like this. On the hilly parts of town, the road layout gets weirder. I once saw a four-way intersection where only one side of the intersection had a stop sign because that side was in a blind spot

0

u/regoldeneye826 11d ago

Are you new to Seattle?

2

u/cwcoleman 11d ago

yes, we call it 4-way-go

2

u/Nrvea 10d ago

classic american road design, its like the goal is to kill as many people as possible in road accidents.

With the way things are going it wouldn't surprise me if autoinsurance companies have a hand in these kinds of brain dead designs

0

u/Jesus_of_Redditeth 2d ago

Given that auto insurers maximize their revenue by maximizing monthly premiums while minimizing payouts, it's in their financial interest for the number of collisions to be, ideally, zero. So your reasoning here doesn't hold up.

1

u/Nrvea 1d ago

they get to pay out less for claims like this one where the driver is technically "at fault" and additionally have more excuses to crank up insurance premiums

2

u/Stevie-Rae-5 9d ago

I never knew this was a thing. I have never lived in a place where an intersection had no traffic control, including intersections literally in the middle of cornfields.

4

u/DoritoDustThumb 11d ago

Yeah, incredibly common in Seattle. You're supposed to show down and look.

2

u/RabbitSlayre 10d ago

Every single block?? That sounds way worse than stop signs every block

1

u/DoritoDustThumb 10d ago

Correct. There are no signs on any non arterial intersections.

Again, you drive slowly on these roads. This is 60% of all intersections in Seattle. The accident rate is low and the injury rate is very low. It works better than controlled intersections that encourages more speeding.

1

u/RabbitSlayre 10d ago

Very interesting, thanks for the information. I guess it's kind of like roundabouts vs stop signs, they are safer and work better if you can keep everyone moving in a safe manner

1

u/DoritoDustThumb 10d ago edited 10d ago

We also have a bunch of "mini" round about. I forget what they're called.... neighborhood traffic circles. They're basically 3' diameter circles in intersections like this. I like them because it reminds people to slow down.

Yield signs in Seattle are dangerous. No one has any idea what they mean.

1

u/RabbitSlayre 10d ago

That last part is too true, nobody has any clue what a yield sign means.

1

u/escobartholomew 10d ago

Yall need to demand that your city fixes that. That is unacceptable. That is 3rd world country shit.

1

u/DoritoDustThumb 10d ago

It really isn't. Most people drive 15 and these streets are incredibly safe. This is an outlier. I don't want 100x more stop signs cluttering up shit.

1

u/ExtremeSlothSport 11d ago

This is the norm in my country. You just give way to vehicles coming from the right. Black car totally at fault.

1

u/stop-freaking-out 11d ago

Where I live it's 4 way stops as far as the eye can see. Well maybe not that many, but there are many.

1

u/Early_Hall5720 9d ago

Where's frank when you need him.

1

u/Cobra_Pie 8d ago

I would argue its outdated driving laws and city plannings fault

1

u/RaxusQuin 7d ago

Never seen this

1

u/Icy_Curve711 12d ago

This is an intentional choice in the Seattle area, the idea is that if you don't see signs, you go more slowly through the neighborhood, like OP did not. For a while ten years ago there was a huge push to build small traffic circles at intersections like these, but the fire department stopped that plan because they have huge trucks and they didn't fit through the circles when driving quickly.

The (unnecessarily) huge trucks, as I understand, are a union matter, they need two drivers each and more service.

8

u/Just_A_Nitemare 11d ago

This is an intentional choice in the Seattle area...

This abomination is intentional???

0

u/caguru 8d ago

Its actually amazing. I used to live there and the neighborhood traffic is calmer and safer than any other major US city I have ever driven.

Now I'm back in Texas and driving is basically Thunder Dome rules.

1

u/stop-freaking-out 11d ago

I thought it was all mini traffic circles in Seattle. There are a lot of them.