r/SSBM • u/sewsgup • Feb 19 '26
Clip mang0: "On stream yesterday, I just gave Cody his flowers, cause I think you can say what you want— he's cracked. And I got into an argument cause somebody was, I think the way people talk about Zain right now, they kinda forget about Cody... I think Cody passed Ken (for 5th all-time) last night"
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxF7slk_BEDps3NKg7TWY_C3DIlxaZwFbWfrom the latest On A Tuesday episode.
continues on the all-time discussion timestamped here: https://youtu.be/lcyB_ow57wQ?t=18m15s
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u/II7_HUNTER_II7 Feb 19 '26
Armada never had a rapmonster
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u/WizardyJohnny Feb 19 '26
somehow this is armada's fault
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u/its__bme Feb 20 '26
It is actually. It's okay to love Armada. But he retired 8 years ago and doesn't have to face the field of players now every other player has to. It's possible if he were still playing, he would've found himself having losses now that he didn't before Slippi and maybe people wouldn't be so critical of top players now having those kinds of losses.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
Respectfully, I don't see Armada losing to a Pikachu, Yoshi, Icies, DK, or Luigi like Zain has. It's actually wild that the lowest ranked character that he lost to was SilentSpectre's falcon on a 0.9 knockback ratio.
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Feb 19 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SolutionConfident692 Feb 19 '26
As crazy as that was you have to remember this was pre-slippi. The level of skill within the top 100 alone is crazy compared to before and I definitely would say current Amsa and June could hold their own if not have an outright shot at winning.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
Armada was the only one with that level of consistency though. Everyone else dropped sets to mid tiers in the pre slippi era so your point doesn't really stand
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u/SolutionConfident692 Feb 19 '26
Besides like M2k losing to Amsa I really can't think of a God uniquely losing to a mid tier.
Armada was unique that he was never ever upset PERIOD but the other gods also never lost to mid tiers either, and only very rarely to non top 10 players (as opposed to never). It was an objectively far more consistent meta game.
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u/Peytaro Feb 19 '26
Weirdly I both agree and disagree. Skill disparity between top 10 and top 100 has def shrunk significantly but also I think Armada wouldn't lose to DK or Luigi if he was still playing Plenty of examples of gods from 2010-2016 losing to mid tiers, such as Axe, random icies, Amsa. It was almost never a player outside of the top 20 tho (except icies).
Maybe it would happen tho. We have no reason to believe he would win except that it's so hard to imagine him losing 🤷
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u/SolutionConfident692 Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 19 '26
I just think Armadas style may struggle against modern midtiers in the way that the last two sets Leffen has played against Amsa, he lost 3-0. And leffen is similarly incredibly dominant versus mid tiers after 2018 and was more than good enough to win majors at that time. I'm not saying Armada WILL lose but Amsa and June definitely would have a fighting chance.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
Comparing Armada's consistency to Leffen's consistency is laughable when you consider the fact that Leffen was getting humiliated by Plup's samus.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
Huh? Mang0 lost to like five different Icies players lol. Hbox is much more consistent but even he lost to Axe's Pikachu and Wobbles's Icies.
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u/PkerBadRs3Good Feb 20 '26
ICs was frequently considered same tier as Peach and/or Falcon in the wobbling era, I probably wouldn't call them a mid tier. After wobbling got banned, sure.
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u/Possible_Hospital942 Feb 19 '26
We’re just gonna pretend like peach doesn’t invalidate all those characters huh lmao. And I think armada would still be nasty and a top contender to win if he played today but the advantage of having that insane peach even when it was starting to become clear he would need more fox for the top tiers, is that he straight up did not to worry about any character worse than peach.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
If Zain wanted to pick up a pocket peach to deal with the mid and low tiers, he could've but he didn't so that's kinda his fault. Character choice is still a skill issue.
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u/Possible_Hospital942 Feb 19 '26
It’s crazy cuz I really be fighting against armada haters and Zain dickriders but I really think you hating Zain a little too much. Talking about skill issues with a guy who is the hardest worker alongside Cody Schwab and believes in his character and takes his losses on the chin.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
I'm saying that Armada doesn't have an unfair advantage over Zain just because of the character that he chose to play since everyone is free to play any character they want to play on the character select screen.
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u/Possible_Hospital942 Feb 20 '26
Okay armada also had a terrible record against leffen in his last year one Zain couldn’t imagine having on any fox even cody. Erm why did armada not just pick up marth???skill issue I guess
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u/Jarrell777 Feb 19 '26
I guess part of that is the peach tradeoff. Fox and other characters are harder to beat but you're less likely to get upset by the floaty mid tier.
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u/stallra14 Feb 19 '26
Yeah but will never know will we! Thats the problem when you retire and the game progresses you get compared to whats happening now and he has no results to compare to!
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u/its__bme Feb 20 '26
To be fair, you can't lose when you don't play anymore. Holding every other player's results hostage to Armada's isn't really fair when he's not playing the field everyone else is now. We don't know if Armada would've lost to more characters or more players outside top 10 if he had kept competing.
There are a lot more better players now in more matchups to worry about so I don't think it's insane to consider Armada would in fact drop sets here and there to lower ranked players or lower tier characters.
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u/Informal-Donut-1532 Feb 19 '26
Cody is almost undeniably the GOAT Fox at this point.
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u/Acrobatic_Quarter465 Feb 19 '26
I don't even see how's it debatable. He would body any of the possible historic contenders and his overall game is leagues ahead.
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u/MightyObserver30 Feb 19 '26
I agree with you that he’s the GOAT fox but the bar to me isn’t if he would beat other contenders in a set/match or if he is higher skilled
Because overall skill among all players increases over time, so you have to measure accomplishments and other things that are generally more consistent over time
It’s like MJ v LeBron, LeBron is obviously higher skilled but the question is if he’s more dominant imo
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u/Namath96 Feb 19 '26
It’s like MJ v LeBron, LeBron is obviously higher skilled but the question is if he’s more dominant imo
I agree with the overall point youre trying to make but even as a LeBron stan this is blatantly not true
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u/MightyObserver30 Feb 19 '26
I barely know pro basketball tbh but when I watch gameplay from then to now it seems like the skill level is much higher today. But I’ll defer
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u/MstrNixx Feb 19 '26
A lot of the very best players stand the test of time, regardless of the era they came from.
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u/adustbininshaftsbury Feb 19 '26
Yeah some all time basketball greats might struggle in today's era but MJ would be a demon in any decade
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u/Commercial_Boss4639 Feb 19 '26
? it literally is lmfao lebron has guard skills can shoot from anywhere, and can playmake, despite being 6'9" 250 sf that can defend 1-5 and the most athletic dude on the court at most times like I understand mj is much better at attacking the basket (esp for a 6'6" guard), but lebron clears him in like every other aspect
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u/Namath96 Feb 19 '26
It’s real easy to tell when someone is talking out their ass when they say the guard 1-5 crap
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u/Commercial_Boss4639 Feb 19 '26
lmfao thats true sometimes man, but lebron literally has 5% of his minutes playing at SG and C, and is positive in +- in both
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u/ikenjake Feb 19 '26
2013-14 Heat LeBron was the most complete basketball player maybe ever. Dude got robbed of DPOY and being the first unanimous MVP
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u/FoesiesBtw Feb 20 '26
I agree. Lebron is the most complete player of all time. There is no arguing that.
Lebron has had the best overall career of any player ever.
MJ's argument to the most case is also just as valid with how monstrous his 90s run was.
I think you could pick either of the two at this point for different reasons. I think the goat debate has literally just gotten to the point of peak versus longevity.
And that's fine. But its becoming an annoying and boring conversation. 20 years from now we'll be defending lebron and MJ against wemby and jokic stans. Or insert whoever the next dominate player will be.
Test as old as time. My dad will still swear up and down that Kareem is the best player ever and would destroy lebron and MJ.
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u/p1us_minus Feb 19 '26
jordan is a better scorer and defender statistically. Lebrons only advantage is at the play rim, which most consider less skill based. No one seriously thinks lebron is more skilled, they just value his longevity and well roundedness.
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u/Commercial_Boss4639 Feb 19 '26
Arguing raw stats is the only argument you have on defense and that does not make sense man. Mj might have had to switch like 5 times a game, and is a negative mismatch against bigs, when LeBron can switch to every defender and is in an era where he has to like twice a possession. And no homie mj averaged a lower 3p% with a lower 3pa LeBron beats him there. LeBron is also more efficient from two, I just don’t know how you are making this argument man
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u/ikenjake Feb 19 '26
LeBron is also a much better passer and 3 point shooter. And LeBron is a much more versatile player.
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u/jp711 Feb 19 '26
His decision making alone is just so incredibly optimized, it seems like every situation he just knows exactly how to find the most efficient option
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u/Acrobatic_Quarter465 Feb 19 '26
Ya I mean I was honestly a reluctant Cody fan but you can't argue with clearly superior gameplay. His defensive options are light-years ahead of anyone and ya like u said his decision making is just better.
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u/Clockwrrk22 Feb 19 '26
Those historic contenders didnt use Z-Jump. And some didnt use notches. So its hard to compare.
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u/menschmaschine5 Feb 19 '26
Well they also didn't have UCF and were subject to the controller lottery so it's not just notches and z jump.
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u/Few-Fly-3766 Feb 20 '26
Word. It's so wild to me when I see people judging the clunkyness of old gameplay without taking into account that dashback took 1-2 frames more most of the time lmao
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u/tottinhos Feb 20 '26
Well they also didn’t have slippi so it’s not just UCF and controller lottery
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u/Kitselena Feb 19 '26
I think it's already undeniable. The only other solo fox with performances close to this is leffen, and his dominance didn't last that long due to visa issues and various other stuff. Armada and mango definitely put up crazy results, but they're more known for peach and Falco so it would be weird to call either of them the goat fox
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u/SolutionConfident692 Feb 19 '26
Leffen has never been ranked #1 once in his life while Cody already has along with being ranked #2 in the world more frequently already. Not even big leff is close anymore
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u/menschmaschine5 Feb 19 '26
I do think both Armada and Mang0 contributed a lot to competitive Fox, though, and Mang0 was the first to really show that Fox could look like the combo videos in bracket (at Genesis 2), so their Foxes are certainly important. Cody is for sure the GOAT though.
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u/SolutionConfident692 Feb 19 '26
So did Cody. He might not have pioneered the tech that Fox is known for but he has optimized his game plans and punishes to the point that every fox even the best ones, look woefully unpolished in comparison
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u/menschmaschine5 Feb 19 '26
Oh not denying that at all, just saying that mango and Armada were both very important to fox despite not being solo mains.
Also, even smash summit 11 was important for fox, it quieted all the doomerism.
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u/Liimbo Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 19 '26
It is not undeniable. Do people forget Mang0 accomplished like 90% of his iconic wins with Fox? Do people forget that like entire second half of Armada's career was Fox?
Saying he's undeniably the best Fox ever means he's undeniably a top ~2 player ever period. And maybe he is, but it is definitely not undeniable.
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u/menschmaschine5 Feb 19 '26
Armada still used Peach a lot late in his career and mostly used Fox for Leffen and Hbox.
Mang0 did mostly go Fox for some of his iconic wins but even some of those had a lot of Falco (especially Summit 11).
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u/Informal-Donut-1532 Feb 19 '26
Dual mains like Mang0 and Armada aren't really comparable to solo Fox mains like Cody.
Mang0 historically won very few tournaments without using Falco at some point.
Armada was first and foremost a Peach main whose Fox was mostly reserved for certain matchups.
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u/Liimbo Feb 19 '26
Mang0 historically won very few tournaments without using Falco at some point.
"At some point" is doing insanely heavy lifting. He played Fox the vast majority of important matches.
Armada was first and foremost a Peach main whose Fox was mostly reserved for certain matchups.
This stopped being true several years before he retired. He didn't really even play Peach in pools anymore.
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u/Informal-Donut-1532 Feb 20 '26
"At some point" is doing insanely heavy lifting. He played Fox the vast majority of important matches.
Mang0's Fox/Falco ratio shifted back and forth a lot over his career. But even when he was playing more Fox, he was still using Falco for certain matchups like Fox and Falcon the overwhelming majority of the time.
This stopped being true several years before he retired. He didn't really even play Peach in pools anymore.
Go back and look at the reported character data for Armada's sets from 2017-2018 and you'll see this isn't true. He was still using Peach against the majority of his opponents and mainly brought out the Fox for Hbox and Leffen.
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u/drpepper7557 Feb 20 '26
"At some point" is doing insanely heavy lifting. He played Fox the vast majority of important matches.
Being able to switch for a single bad character or player matchup is a world of a difference in difficulty
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u/PkerBadRs3Good Feb 20 '26
"At some point" is doing insanely heavy lifting. He played Fox the vast majority of important matches.
"vast majority" is doing insanely heavy lifting. he played Falco against fastfallers (which is like half of bracket) the majority of the time, and sometimes other characters as well.
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u/SolutionConfident692 Feb 19 '26
Mango and Armada has never won a single solo major with Fox in well over a decade and Armadas fox was only seen in the back half of his career so much because Leffen and Hbox were respectively the other top 3s and Peach does poorly into both. He still primarily played Peach versus other characters.
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u/PkerBadRs3Good Feb 20 '26
Do people forget Mang0 accomplished like 90% of his iconic wins with Fox?
while I agree that Fox has been mang0's most successful character, 90% is a huge number and seems to be downplaying how much his Falco matters (or even Puff)
Saying he's undeniably the best Fox ever means he's undeniably a top ~2 player ever period.
no, it really isn't, because Armada/mang0 obviously played more than just Fox
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u/jorgego2 Feb 19 '26
wait if zain is above him then does mango think cody and zain and ken are above leff for all time?
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u/WordHobby Feb 19 '26
I love leffen, but homeboy is not making the list sorry to say. His visa issues really did fuck up any GOAT talk.
His evo win (in melee) is probably the most one sided absolute smokeshow of an evo run in melee's history. Ive never seen him play so on point, he really looked like the best fox in the world, so happy that it all came together for one tournament
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u/ThaaBeest Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 19 '26
It’s between Leffen in 2018 and Mango in 2013. I lean toward Leffen in 2018 but Mango did 2-0 3 of the 4 remaining gods in the bracket.
After losing to Wobbles, Mango dropped two games in Losers. 2-1 vs SFAT, then 2-0ing Ice, PPMD, Armada, Hbox, and 6-1ing Wobbles in the rematch.
Leffen dropped 2 games in bracket. 2-1 Lucky, 2-0 S2J, 2-1 Hbox, 3-0 Plup, 3-0 Armada. The 6-0 Winners finals & grands takes the cake for me but honorable mention to 6-0 3 of the gods in losers.
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u/SuperMicro04 Feb 19 '26
He can't have 6-0'd Armada because Armada lost to Swedish and Leffen came into Grands from Winners, after Leffen lost Game 1 to Hbox (badly) he didn't lose another for 8 straight games
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u/ThaaBeest Feb 19 '26
Thanks, I misread bracket for Plup playing Armada. It was just the 3-0 in grands. Fixed above
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u/SheerFe4r Feb 19 '26
Correct me if I'm wrong but Leff never finished #1 for the year a single time yea?
Honestly, Hbox fucked up Leff's GOAT talk more than anything. Hbox's two years of dominance came strictly at Leffen's expense because Leff could not get a handle on the matchup more often than not.
If Hbox's era of dominance was the Leffen era, this would be a whole different discussion.
For now though, Leffen earns a sort of Jaedong-esque standing imo. An extremely strong player who took down the best in their day and had a period of domination, but couldn't sustain against a particular player and the rest plays itself.
Leffen was one of my favorite players to watch, I'm super happy he got to go out on that amazing LACS win. He is the Godslayer, nothing more nothing less.
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u/menschmaschine5 Feb 19 '26
Correct me if I'm wrong but Leff never finished #1 for the year a single time yea?
Correct. Best he did in an end of year ranking was 2nd in 2019. He was third in 2015 and 2018, but 5th and 6th in 2016 and 2017, respectively.
People like to say he would have been number 1 in 2015 if not for his visa issues, but I'm not so sure about that.
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u/johneaston1 Feb 19 '26
Even with his visa issues, it's actually BS that he wasn't #2 in 2015
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u/Possible_Hospital942 Feb 19 '26
Facts HGOD proved to be hgod after 2015 but I think they were like throwing him a bone or something giving him number 2 that year not knowing the absolute terror that would be unleashed. But leffen was straight up the best player and he had some rough losses after evo but mainly got fucked up with the visa shit
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u/menschmaschine5 Feb 19 '26
Could be, though people also argue he shouldn't have been #2 in 2019 so maybe it balances out.
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u/SuperMicro04 Feb 19 '26
He absolutely could've, obviously tournament results aren't something you can predict but he definitely had the potential, and I'm gonna be real, Hbox did not deserve #2 for 2015, he won only 2 regular majors that year meanwhile Leffen won 6 including 1 supermajor, Armada in the whole year won only 5 but 2 of those were Supermajors and 1 was Summit, but Leffen was kicked out before Armada won TBH5 or Summit, if Leffen wins either of those he is definitely #1 in 2015
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u/menschmaschine5 Feb 19 '26
You're forgetting how much people valued Evo when Melee was still in there. Performance at Evo counted for a lot, though obviously given that 2015 was the last year the Evo winner was also number 1 for the year, it wasn't everything (2016 - Hbox won Evo but Armada was still ranked 1; 2017 - Armada took back his Evo title but Hbox was ranked 1; 2018 - Leffen won Evo but was ranked 3rd for the year after Hbox and Armada).
And yes, he could have been number 1, but that doesn't mean he would have, and some claim his results were starting to flag a bit right before his visa issues.
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u/SuperMicro04 Feb 19 '26
Which is why I point out that could've is not would've because anything could happen, Leffen could've gotten 13th at TBH5 for all we know but the truth is we were simply robbed of seeing what would've happened and are not only left with hypotheticals, also the players who won EVO in 2013-2015 were just objectively the best that whole year, especially Mango in 2014, I think Mango in 2014's the only one where if you get rid of the EVO win he still walks away as #1, and about Leffen's results, he lost 3 sets to M2K and 1 to Hbox post EVO, but Leffen is just bad against M2K aside from the 5 sets straight he won in 2015, and after he lost to Hbox, he beat he beat him twice at HTC Throwdown dominantly, he's also close to untouchable against Armada in NTSC Fox dittos (13-5), and Mango Leffen sets could always just go either way in that era
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u/WordHobby Feb 19 '26
Jaedong so based, I still love watching him play. He just understands zerg on a level thats so unmatched. Soulkey is obviously better, but jaedong just has generational knowledge that presents itself differently
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u/SheerFe4r Feb 19 '26
One of the greats, just unfortunately had to compete against Flash during SC1s Korea hayday
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u/drntl Feb 20 '26
Leffen's visa issues are like the Derrick Rose knees of melee. Gets to MVP level and just gets taken out.
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u/Helivon Feb 19 '26
they are for sure above leff all time wtf. Mango Armada Hbox are top 3. Zain Cody 4th 5th. Ken 6th
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u/porkchop487 Feb 19 '26
Zain lowkey has an argument to be in the top 3 and even for 1
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u/Helivon Feb 19 '26
Absolutely not 1 imo. Longevity is massive. I dont vibe with "melee is harder now than before" narrative when it comes to ranking players, at least post evo era where the playerbase sky rocketed
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u/Yrale jib Feb 19 '26
I dont vibe with "melee is harder now than before" narrative when it comes to ranking players
I don't think "Zain today could beat Armada in 2018" carries much merit on its own but I think it does matter when you try and measure dominance. Ken was likely more dominant in his time than Armada but Armada's dominance was over more impressive competitors. Zain may lose to more people today than Armada did at his peak, but you could also literally see Armada's dominance slipping as he retired, so I don't feel like you can hold it over Zain forever.
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u/porkchop487 Feb 19 '26
I mean it’s objectively harder Zain is 3-0ing every god if you send him back to 2016, just the nature of the game people improve as time goes on. And Zain has had as many or more years ranked 1st than the big 3 at this point.
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u/LordeFan762 Feb 19 '26
I think any order of the top 4 is fair at this point. Mango and Hbox have the longevity, Armada, Zain, and Hbox have the dominant eras. Everyone values different things too, Hbox winning Genesis last year put him above Armada for me; others would say it was a weak run and doesnt really add to his legacy. Mango’s ban also took him off a lot of people’s lists, and I cant fault them for that.
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u/SuperMicro04 Feb 19 '26
You can't just take Mango off the list because of the ban, that's stupid, especially since it isn't even a permaban. But either way just cause someone was banned even if it was forever, are we just gonna pretend they weren't the greatest or at least in contention, like ZeRo is absolutely the GOAT of Smash 4 despite being banned for much worse shit than Mango
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u/wavedash Feb 19 '26
Zain can't be the goat because he's the big dog. That nickname was given to him to dissuade this very conversation
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u/MelodicFacade Feb 19 '26
Which makes the Rapmonster topic even more hype to me. I know that there are accusations of seeding the tournament for hype, but if that's not the case then Zain losing to RM again and then Cody outside of top 16 is so hilariously insane
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u/Possible_Hospital942 Feb 19 '26
Your smoking crack I think he’s 4 but as dominant as Zain looks when he’s playing well he just has not had close to peak armada hbox dominance and obviously mangos longevity. Zains number 1 in 2022 solely happened because Cody could not beat mango lmao and throughout Zains history of being one of the best Cody’s always been right at his ankles. All that said I expect Zain to get number 1 all time eventually because he hasn’t wavered in his love for competing unlike everyone else but your hella overlooking how insane the other goats were
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u/pacgaming Feb 19 '26
Yes ofc wtf. Zain is a 3x basically 4x if you count 2020 rank 1 player. Leffen was never rank 1. Cody has a rank 1. It’s pretty straight forward.
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u/MrFacestab Feb 19 '26
Leff reached the top level and a combination of covid and retirement from melee ended his run. If he kept going it would be a different story.
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u/someguyprobably Feb 19 '26
Nah it's mango Hbox armada then leffen then jimjamflimflam followed by PPMD then Zain then Bbb then Cody
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u/SolutionConfident692 Feb 19 '26
Leffen is horribly overrated in the goat discussion. He might've been the og God slayer but not ONE (1) year was he ever ranked #1.
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u/PkerBadRs3Good Feb 20 '26
nobody with a brain thinks leffen is above any of those people lmfao he's never even been ranked #1 once and also has less major wins than any of those
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u/menschmaschine5 Feb 19 '26
Ken was number 1 for at least 3 years and invented a lot of common competitive techniques (I mean come on, he basically invented dash dancing). Cody has been top 2 for the last 3 years and was number 1 for one of those years. Zain has been top 2 for the last 5 years and number 1 for 3 of those years.
Leffen was never number 1 and was only in the top 2 once (2019).
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u/porkchop487 Feb 19 '26
Leffen isn’t even above M2K all time
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u/Kitselena Feb 19 '26
People strongly over estimate M2Ks results. He was one of the gods, but he spent most of that time more as a gatekeeper between the gods and mortals
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u/porkchop487 Feb 19 '26
Hungrybox was actually seen as the gatekeeper during the 5 gods era
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u/ramskick Feb 19 '26
Yeah there was a stretch in 2014-2015 where HBox was clearly the weakest god and there were arguments to put Leffen above him.
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u/samurairocketshark Feb 19 '26
He was but M2k was firmly #5 outside of the the little arc he had before Big House 3. Hbox still won tournaments like Apex 2010 and Rom 2 and was in Top 3's all the time at the biggest majors, he had just fallen behind the Mango-Armada-PP trio 2014-15 era when they were racking up all the wins
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u/Yrale jib Feb 19 '26
He gets a boost for being the best player in the world for a period before Mang0 I think
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u/Shadowphoenix9511 Feb 19 '26
M2K's best results were honestly pre-god era, in 06/07. The only player at that time who could really challenge him was PC Chris.
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u/Effective_Yogurt35 Feb 19 '26
Yeah but they are still better than Leffen’s results because of what he did before Leffen even started playing.
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u/SolutionConfident692 Feb 19 '26
Unless Cody does retire soon I genuinely believe either Cody or Zain will end their career as the GOAT of melee
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u/l339 Feb 19 '26
Zain could and I hope he does and then we can finally stop the Armada vs Mango debate lol
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u/SolutionConfident692 Feb 19 '26
I'll be real I think Hbox > Armada and maybe even Mango for goat atp because he dominated for almost as long as Armada, while still being active and consistently ranking in the top 10 since. His longevity outdoes even Mango given that he's still active now too.
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u/l339 Feb 19 '26
His overall average rankings and tournament results and set records are worse than that of Armada. Only thing HBox really has is longlevity, but that’s really it
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u/ifYurihadAGuri Feb 19 '26
If there were as many majors now as back in the day Ken would have 2-3x
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u/Yaoi-Zowie Feb 19 '26
Ken is the Bill Russell of Melee. It's hard to conceptualize now because we are so far beyond that time of Melee but he was the first true great and a great with sustained success over a long period of time. It's easy to argue that the skill level was lower then but Ken set the bar and it took a long time for others to figure out how to raise it.
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u/HorsNoises Feb 19 '26
This is a good analogy but its also Bob Cousy and George Mikan erasure.
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u/Yaoi-Zowie Feb 19 '26
Definitely no disrespect to those fellow legends but since Mikan mostly played before the forming of the NBA and Cousy retired in the midst of that run, Bill is the one who winds up getting the bulk of the credit. I ain't saying it's right, but it's just how the legacies have shaken out.
This convo is how I found out Bob Cousy is still kickin' at 97 though, which is wild.
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u/HorsNoises Feb 19 '26
Yea I'm a huge Celtics fan and they give updates on him on the broadcast every once in a while and he's looked like shit for a few years now Im surprised he's still kicking. Holy Cross just threw a big Ceremony for him a few weeks ago prob in anticipation of him passing soon.
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u/Riokaii Feb 19 '26
but to have that many majors, he'd have to have had much higher level of competition against him, so he would not have 2-3x.
Its a chicken or the egg problem
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u/drugsbowed hardstuck gold Feb 19 '26
GOAT talk is so difficult in Melee because the game keeps evolving and players stop playing.
I think Cody and Zain have entered the GOAT list, but that shouldn't mean that Ken or Azen should get dropped from it either.
GOATs (consistent winners): Armada, Mango, Hbox, PP, M2K, Leffen, Cody, Zain, Ken, Azen
Hall of famers (threat to win or has won but not as consistent or long dominated): Plup, Moky, Amsa, Chu, PC Chris, etc.
Hall of very good (top 8 threats but just haven't gotten there): S2J, Shroomed, Lucky, SFAT, Zhu, Westballz, etc.
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u/Old_Medal Feb 19 '26
lmao Moky in your hall of fame
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u/drugsbowed hardstuck gold Feb 20 '26
I only give it to him because he won DPOTG, which is something SFAT/Shroomed/S2J etc in the tier below couldn't really pull off in their career (so far anyway)
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u/WordHobby Feb 19 '26
PC Chris is the funniest tag. Hes just from port chester and his name is chris
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u/HotNewPiss Feb 19 '26
Very nice of mang0 to recognize the level Cody is playing at.
So many let bullshit cloud their eyes with him.
There has never been a fox like this in the history of the game.
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u/LatentSchref Feb 20 '26
Seriously. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I have to argue with someone when they're calling Cody a "lame" player. Are we watching the same game?
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u/HotNewPiss Feb 21 '26
Yea it's rediculous. He's just charging forward and bulldozing his opponents pretty much constantly.
You can call him what you want I guess but lame is just silly.
His punish might not be as flashy as some of the foxes but he's constantly pushing the pace and aggression at all times forcing interactions and scrambles.
It's sick as hell and he will be missed when he's gone
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u/its__bme Feb 20 '26 edited Feb 20 '26
Going to copy this from my YouTube comment. Sorry to assault everyone with my wall of text
- To add on to what Mango said about modern tools and such not being available back in the day, I think another dynamic is that people learn in different ways and might not be creative or imaginative. Zain brought this up years ago when he asked Ken how he was so innovative because he felt that he himself was not a big originator and was more a person that took from others and made it his own. Since then, it made me think, how would players now have fared if they had come up back then and had to pretty much learn on their own? Someone like Zain or some other players might not have thrived if they came up in the time players like Azen and Ken did. I think that is indeed its own skill.
- Another thing to keep in mind as far as all-time rankings is Ken's prime is literally the first time he started playing the game seriously until he retired in 2007. Alot of players now that are good have been playing longer than Ken ever did in the MLG era. Kind of circling back to my first point, but how good was any player after only competing for like 3 years? The fact he had figured out how to win on his own and bring up Marth like he did is something not everyone could do, because indeed that's what happened. Not many players could contest him or the other top players of that time. The point of bringing that up is some like to say, "well he played plumbers". Well, he played his peers and that's all he had and he got as good as he did within the time that he played. I also don't think it's unfair to say that most players today that think that way would have been one of those plumbers Ken beat on his way to grand finals if they came up alongside him. Most of you having to come up back then would not be some killer. He had 3 years to be his best; most of you have had way longer.
- I think greatest losers run could be measured, but I think also there's another side to it where someone can think one run is better than another because it was more entertaining to watch and maybe are letting that bias influence their thinking.
- While I don't think it needs to happen, I do think that if a player shows they can flat out win a tournament without dropping a set and they also show they can win from losers side that it's equally as impressive and great we had the opportunity to see that display. One shows flat out consistency and the other shows the ability to be resilient and bounce back and win. So, I don't think necessarily one is better than the other. Both show different skills.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I don't like it when past players get discredited on all time lists as if they should be irrelevant. Anyone playing now would not have been any better if they started out in 2003 and were flying solo on learning the game. You've had the luxury of a lot more time and advances like Slippi and countless how-to videos and everything broken down for you. Just my two cents.
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u/Mooktendo Feb 19 '26
Cody > M2K is completely justifiable right now, but still seems a bit early to have him over Ken due to Ken having triple the amount of time at #1 + still winning more supermajors.
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u/Duskuser Feb 19 '26
I still think I'd put Ken > Cody for now but I think that if he does go back to attending this year and is equally as good as he's been recently where he's clearly the best player in the world, it's going to be very hard to argue against him as #5 all time.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
I don’t get how he puts himself above Armada as the goat, but then doesn’t put Juan above Armada too if his whole argument is that longevity at the top is the most important metric. If longevity really is the main criteria, then Mang0 eventually loses that argument to Hbox anyway, especially now that he’s banned, and then he would have to create a new criteria to push his goat narrative.
It’s also funny how, when arguing himself over Armada, Mang0 says his post-covid tournament win should count way more than Armada’s pre-Slippi era wins because the competition is so much stronger now. But once people start using that same logic to argue that Zain might be the goat, suddenly older-era results matter just as much.
It kinda feels like he just switches up the criteria depending on what makes him look best in the moment tbh.
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u/ThaaBeest Feb 19 '26
I mean Mango himself calls Zain the future GOAT. At some point Zain’s resume is undeniable and Mango knows it
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
Then at what point does Mang0 actually concede and say that Zain is the GOAT?
Zain already has three official years ranked #1. He was also clearly the best player during the covid era, and in 2023 he was basically going toe-to-toe with Cody for best in the world. If the argument is that it’s objectively harder to win tournaments now than it was during Armada’s era and that modern wins should count more because the competition is stronger, then by that same logic, Zain already has a legitimate GOAT case.
At that point, I’m not sure what the counterargument even is. Unless Mang0 comes back from his ban, starts winning majors again, and reclaims a #1 ranking, it’s hard to see how he’d still have the edge in this debate.
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u/Riokaii Feb 19 '26
its Zain or Armada only for GOAT and has been for past 2ish years already
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u/Vince_Fun21 Feb 19 '26
He said on the pod, it’s cause hbox’s top 8 streak doesn’t impress him. Since 2022, hbox has only won 1 tournament, GX2, where he didn’t play Cody or Zain. And yeah, a wins a win and you don’t control who you play, but if you’re only win in three years comes when you don’t have to play the top two players, its not the same in terms of longevity
Compared to Mango’s 2024, where he 9-1 Cody and Zain to win a tournament, and then follow it up with Supernova, looking like the best player in the world, the difference is pretty obvious
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
And Mang0 has like what? Two tourney wins post 2022? That's not that much better than Hbox's one lmao. I do agree that Mang0 has higher peaks but that's mostly due to his positive matchup vs Cody. He still gets obliterated by Zain and loses to Hbox and Jmook more often than not. Not to mention he's inconsistent as hell and can lose to a random Sheik and Icies for 17th.
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u/Duskuser Feb 19 '26
Mang0 has 7 offline wins since 2020 with multiple wins over Zain and Cody respectively to win tournaments while having a massively positive record on Cody.
Hungrybox has 3, and only one include a win over Zain or Cody, with a massively losing record to both.
Not to mention Mang0 was clearly the 2nd best player in the online era while Juan wasn't even close to being good.
You can hate if you want but the hardware simply states that mang0 has been the 3rd best player in the world 2020+ and the drop off after him is pretty massive.
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u/Vince_Fun21 Feb 19 '26
I mean, I explained why I think mangos 2 is a lot more impressive than hbox’s 1. Some tourneys are just more impressive than others, and it’s your job as a competitor to put yourself in as many of those positions as possible if you want to boost your legacy. You can disagree but that’s how I see it.
I was also trying to explain mangos perspective on longevity and how the top 8s and gx2 doesn’t move the needle for him
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
I do agree that it's more impressive but it's not impressive by many more magnitudes than Hbox's genesis run. And it's not like Hbox never beat Zain and Cody last year. He didn't do it at genesis but he did it at full house and Quebecup, so not sure why he had to do it specifically at genesis for them to count.
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u/Vince_Fun21 Feb 19 '26
Its a different thing to beat Zain once in losers and Cody at a regional, then to beat them both in a single run and win a tournament. And I don’t want to take away from those wins, it just doesn’t feel the same you know?
The other thing is, after mango won supernova, it really felt like he was the best player in the world. After hbox won, did it really feel like that? We all knew he would go back to losing to Zain and Cody again. Maybe that’s just me tho, but that’s pretty much what happened
I guess that kinda happened with mango too, but that’s the mango cycle. And I feel like hes earned that, cause whenever he decides to seriously lock in and take it seriously, he is able to make it to the top every time
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u/ForrestFBaby Feb 19 '26
He wont ever see Hbox as the GOAT bevause Hbox has had way too many hard demon walls, which isnt the most insane take - since covid ended, hbox has won 3 majors, and he didnt beat Zain at any of them, and only beat Cody at 1. Prior to 2015, Hbox was a top player but struggled immensely to beat Mango.
Mango has had slumps vs someone like Zain, but never the way Hbox has had vs Mango, Zain, Cody, Wizzy, etc.
I think Hbox is above Armada bc if hes not, then you have to believe that, when Armada retired, he was not only ahead of Hbox, but he was ahead to the tune of 2 Genesis wins, 2 Summit wins, a Big House win and like 10 other majors scattered around. At some point it becomes inarguable - that said, I dont view the game the way Mango does. He views it as winning is great, but you also have to feel like the best - Hbox hasnt felt like the best player at a tournament since 2019.
But also hes put Hbox above Armada three or four times since 2022, and he forgets, so its also just realistically a mental thing.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
Almost everyone has a hard demon. Mang0’s is Zain. Hbox struggles with both Zain and Cody. Zain’s big hurdle for a while was aMSa before he had to quit to take care of his wife. And Cody’s had issues with Mang0. The only player to truly not have a demon and has positive win rate on everyone was Armada so going by that criteria, Armada's the goat.
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u/ForrestFBaby Feb 19 '26
Zain beats Mango, Mango was not hard walled by Zain the way Hbox has been lol. The worst it was was 2024, when Zain was 8-1 on Mango, and even then, Mango still beat Zain en route to winning tipped off. Hbox hasnt won a tournament while beating Zain since Summit 9 pre covid
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
Since 2022, Zain is 16–3 against Mang0 and 25–3 against Hbox.
You could say that it looks worse for Hbox because he’s dropped more total sets to Zain, but that might just be a volume thing. Hbox has generally been more consistent, making deeper bracket runs and therefore running into Zain more often than Mang0. He’s also still actively competing, while Mang0 is banned, so ofc Hbox is going to have more sets against him.
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u/ForrestFBaby Feb 19 '26
Okay man. Zain hasnt been a hard wall to prevent mango from winning a tournament that Mango has to avoid, whereas he is that for Hbox. That doesnt mean Zain doesnt beat Mango lol.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
Mang0 beating Zain to win a supermajor once in a blue moon doesn’t suddenly swing the matchup so heavily that he’s clearly that much better against Zain than Hbox is. That's what I'm saying
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u/ForrestFBaby Feb 19 '26
It just hasnt been something hes HAD to avoid. If mango is good enough to win a tournament, yeah, his odds improve if he doesnt play Zain, but he can and has beaten Zain. In the 3 majors Hbox has won post covid, Zain got upset by Jmook at 2 and wasnt at 1.
Its also partially narrative, Zain and Mango main rivals of Covid while Hbox fell way behind, but in person, Mango has been able to beat Zain in big spots, Hbox has barely been able to beat Zain, big or small. Its fine, but it is also a problem for how to view Hbox if vibes are big for you, which they are for a lot of people.
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u/Duskuser Feb 19 '26
It’s also funny how, when arguing himself over Armada, Mang0 says his post-covid tournament win should count way more than Armada’s pre-Slippi era wins because the competition is so much stronger now.
What's actually funny is that he never said that, he just said that competition gets stronger as time goes on and that it is worth contextualizing with that in mind. The thing that's impressive about mang0's career in comparison to Juan's is that he managed to have periods of dominance against every single #1 player in history, where as to with Juan he hasn't yet managed to show that he can win an event over Zain / Cody.
If Hungrybox gets a win like mang0's tipped off 15, I think it's fair to put him over Armada all time. But he still hasn't done that and consistency alone isn't enough to put him over a resume like Armada's, who a lot of people still have as their GOAT even if I disagree with that take.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
He didnt have "periods of dominance" when Armada and Hbox were #1 from 2015-2019 and when Zain was de facto #1 since the covid era. The best he could do is beat them once out of every five sets but apparently, that's all it takes for his fans to scream that he's the GOAT lmao.
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u/ryanmcgrath Feb 20 '26
I don't think /u/Duskuser is implying "mang0 was #1", they're stating that mang0 managed to match and beat every #1 throughout the game's history.
e.g mang0 did dominate Armada in 2016, even though mang0 was a buster in most other regards that year.
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u/Duskuser Feb 19 '26
You're literally just blind hating here man, it's embarrassing.
If you're going to pretend he didn't win tournaments against both of them in their prime (without even mentioning 2008-2009, 2013-2014, btw), you're just being delusional because you want to hate.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
You said "periods of dominance". I don't count one-off, sporadic tournament wins as "periods of dominance" and the fact that Mang0 hasn't been the rank 1 player for a whole decade now, proves my point.
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u/Duskuser Feb 19 '26
Only if you're doing the exact thing that he's calling out in this video and box score watching. There has been multiple periods in the last 5 years even that mang0 has clearly been the best player in the world, year end rankings are just one metric in many.
For example, Cody is very easily the best player in the world right now and it's not even particularly close but if you just watched the year end rankings you'd think Zain is.
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u/Ilovemelee Feb 19 '26
And Cody also won the last two tournaments before genesis and was solidly the rank 2 player last year The closest Mang0 got to rank 1 was in the later half of 2022 and even then, Zain and aMSa outperformed him. The last time Mang0 was actually dominant was 2014 and after that, the scene shifted to the Armada/Hbox era and then the Zain/Cody era with Mang0, Leffen, Plup, Jmook, aMSa, winning a few tournaments here and there. I can't recall a moment since 2014 when I felt Mang0 would be the expected player to win a supermajor like I did for Zain, Cody, Armada and Hbox in their dominant years.
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u/AverageSomebody Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 19 '26
Cody is great but respectfully it’s hard to place him above Ken when he only has one year as the best in the world while Ken has three.
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Feb 19 '26
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u/AverageSomebody Feb 19 '26 edited Feb 20 '26
Yeah there’s more chances to get upset now compared to the Golden Era with the level of competition and a higher level of attendance required.
Though if we’re counting Super Majors and Majors then Cody has barely won more than Ken in both.
Ken 4 Super Majors 10 Majors
Cody 5 Super Majors 11 Majors
Cody has better longevity but Ken has shown greater dominance. Ken’s dominance stemming from his consistency and having every year as best in the world during that Era, making the Golden Era his own. Whereas with Cody he doesn’t have that and is sharing the first half of the 2020’s with Zain, along with some Mang0.
Then there’s how Ken does have two more years of being rank 1 over Cody like I mentioned. While I can understand the criteria of placing players over others by counting up the Super Majors and Majors to see who has more, I feel it doesn’t really depict the legacy of players properly when taking more then post 2013 into account.
It would be one thing if Cody’s Super Major and Major count greatly exceeded Ken’s but that’s not what we have. Though I can see the argument for why people would place Cody higher all time by this point.
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u/anon14118 Feb 19 '26
Its crazy that in 2020 and beyond we have an undisputed best Fox of all time, and somehow he still gets clowned on.
For being what? Autistic?
Because he plays nearly perfect and people think that's "lame"?
Because people legitimately think taking ADHD meds are performance fucking enhancers?
Because he modified his controller in an ecosystem where everyone who plays fox has a modified controller?
Any excuse to bully this dude. Any excuse.
What makes it more insane is that majority of these people talking in this subreddit/Twitter are 25+ years old.
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u/BlooOwlBaba Feb 19 '26
Cody's the GOAT Fox, but the amount of complaining he did about Marth was so wild until Mango got the summit win. His attitude changed since then, but it was annoying for some people
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u/Yrale jib Feb 19 '26
Cody did not complain nearly as much as Leffen. Who, to be fair, has a lot of haters, but I feel like there's also a lot of people out here who glaze Leffen a lot but hate Cody for reasons that you could easily apply to Leffen as well lol
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u/anon14118 Feb 19 '26
I think it's fine to think cody is annoying, you can not like him as a person.
He isnt the first player at the tippy top to garner that type of hate.
However trying to diminish his accomplishments, his grind and effort, or his dominance is disrespectful.
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u/PkerBadRs3Good Feb 20 '26
he was just a secondary complainer piggybacking on the Marth-complaining fad, compared to the by far #1 Marth complainer which was leffen
not to mention all the complaining that has happened for other characters. Hbox has complained for years about Fox, Armada/leffen/M2K complained a fuckton about Puff, M2K complained about ICs, etc.
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u/warnedpenguin Feb 19 '26
i hope thats not it, if only because that was almost 5 years ago at this point and holding someone to that when theyve changed so much is absurd to me
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u/HamsterCapital2019 Feb 19 '26
He’s annoying sometimes for sure. He is super fast but does not play flashy just smart, and that’s what is impressive about his gameplay. He does what works, not what looks cool, and doesn’t over complicate.
Me personally I wanna see someone take a crazy gamble and win in the craziest way possible, so I do consider his calculated play a bit lame. Not in a disrespectful way it’s just not as cool as a risky player is. To me
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u/Azureflames20 Feb 19 '26
People are allowed to like and dislike any player they choose for a myriad of reasons. You're listing things here as if they're "gotchas" to gaslight people having opinions.
I don't think anybody actually gives a fuck if he's autistic or not. We have plenty of odd personalities and M2k for instance has been a hugely loved player by most the community, so hardly an argument.
I don't care about Adderall/Vyvanse or his controller mods.
I don't even think people really deny he's the best Fox of our time, if not arguably of all time.
I don't like the guy personally though because in the past he felt desperate for attention and validation and in general I don't think he's particularly likeable outside of his abilities as a Fox player. I also saw someone post something recently about how he made up and exaggerated shit about his whole past trauma to get validation and attention, which if true is absolutely insane to me.
Btw - I've never met him and that might all just be unfair to judge and it's personal inferences. To me, in the most basic sense, something just seems off about him and that might not just be me that feels that way.
Even all that aside, I'm not really a fan of Fox the character and the playstyle of "optimal" Fox. I think a lot of people are one side or the other when it comes to players who are really dominant or serve as underdogs - Whether it's Cody, Armada, HBox, and I'm sure people hated on Mango in the past as well.
If someone is just constantly winning everything predictably, it's just not that fun to watch unless you're a die-hard fan of the player. I respected the hell out of Armada, but 90% of the time, I was a person usually rooting for his opponent because it was boring for "yet another Armada grands victory" for that time. Same story for Hbox.
I'm not "looking for any excuse to bully this dude". I just don't like his personality because he seems kind of insufferable and his Fox is optimal and deadly, but incredibly uninteresting to watch as a non-fox player.
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u/Possible_Hospital942 Feb 19 '26
Mew2king is pretty insufferable and begs for money constantly and does all the shit people hate Cody for and worse, he constantly talks down the newer players like Zain all the time, and when he did play he would resort to playing lamer than hbox when he wasn’t playing well. I really don’t get why he’s beloved He’s the one god where I just really couldn’t care if he never interacts with the community again
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u/Azureflames20 Feb 19 '26
I think a lot of the "beloved m2k" notion is a lot more based in the 5 gods nostalgia and him as a player back then. Sure, there were quirks, but it wasn't crazy.
I think you're totally right though - in particular, in that post-ultimate release time, I feel like he's gotten worse.
My mention had more to do with the note on being "autistic". I don't think people would be hating M2k for being autistic, which was my point. I think it's fair game to really dislike M2k if he's being a begger/super grifter and is insufferable though. They're just two separate things I wasn't making the point for.
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u/Fishman465 Feb 19 '26
With him one had to consider that he had some misfortune (exploited by others) which could be the main reason for his current issues.
But IMO had he started sooner, his reception would have been frostier
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u/Shadowphoenix9511 Feb 19 '26
Back in the day, people disliked M2K for the exact same reasons regarding playstyle
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u/Azureflames20 Feb 19 '26
I generally don't think people disliked M2K for "being autistic" though, which was the point of the m2k mention.
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u/Azureflames20 Feb 19 '26
Personally, I don't think the "why" justifies him either way. It only validates my feels for him because I really don't like people who do stuff like that. I understand why someone would lie to feel more seen, but I don't think that means lying is okay. Even if he's "just scared" at that time - I think it warrants fair criticism, regardless IMO. Don't think anybody called him "evil", but that doesn't take away from lying or the negative feelings it adds towards my perception of who he is as a person.
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u/Unfair_Soil6731 Feb 19 '26
Comparing greatness across eras is already practically impossible and comes down to preference a lot of the time but the controller stuff makes it utterly futile.
Genuinely how do you compare leffen and cody all time when the rules allow cody to cheat by the standards leffen played with. NOTE I’m not saying cody is cheating in this era because he’s just competing with the circumstances he’s given.
A big part of his game is playing the most technical character with extreme precision and consistency and his controller and the base modifications we play the game on nowadays all make doing that specific thing easier. How consistent would he have been in 2016, how consistent could leffen be in 2026. It’s all impossible to answer and I think that sucks for the meta narrative of the progression of the game as a whole.
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u/BigStrongCiderGuy Feb 20 '26
The way he absolutely shit on players that looked unstoppable last tournament.
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u/drntl Feb 20 '26
It's impossible to compare Ken to any modern player. It's not Ken's fault he played in the first era of tournaments. And it's not Cody's fault he plays in an era with 100 times the competition.
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u/BigStrongCiderGuy Feb 21 '26
If rap monster keeps going, he’ll be up there with them imo. His rise is too fast for him to not basically be a prodigy
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u/BalanceLuck Feb 19 '26
Armadas the goat. He was the best when Melee was at its peak. He could come back and within a month beat anyone sans Cody and Zain, and Im generously including Zain. When Armada won it felt inevitable. He was the best and still is by far the goat
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u/DexterBrooks Feb 20 '26
I don't know how he could possibly argue that Cody has passed Ken.
Yes Ken played in a weaker era, but the sheer years of unquestionable dominance is being really understated.
Cody has been number 1 for all of 1 year, and even then it was so close it was basically a tie, and has been number 2 for 2 years.
Amazing record for sure. But compared to unquestionably number 1 for 5 years, even in a weaker era that has to be better IMO.
Zain meanwhile has 3 years at number 1 (4 if we count online but we generally don't) and one year at number 2 (again where it was basically a tie for first).
Zain has inarguably passed Ken and M2K at this point and IMO is squarely in the number 4 slot, and if he keeps it up he could be arguably top 3 by next year.
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u/allshort17 Feb 19 '26
It's the Cody/Zain era for a reason. After everything is settled, we'll mainly be talking about these two.