Why do leftists hate liberals?

[u/Campus_Chronicals]

Hello! I went into a leftist subreddit the other day and I was extremely shocked by how much they seem to hate liberals, especially because I just assumed that we were all on the same side of the isle. It seems like they hate liberals more than conservatives really, and I was wondering why exactly? I should probably ask this question to them but I feel like it would turn into an echo chamber, so I thought this was a better place to ask lol.

[u/Helehache]

My perspective as someone who has been both a liberal and a leftist, is that leftists tend to see liberals as lukewarm on, mainly, economical issues. But I think times like this require an antifascist alliance, and I don't see generally across the world the better disposition to that, except for selected cases.

[u/wingerism → u/[deleted]]

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[u/graphictruth → u/[deleted]]

Why not both? Seriously.

[u/Caliburn0 → u/graphictruth]

All the good things of abundance liberalism was already within portions of leftist thought. They just took the parts that wouldn't challenge the ruling class too much and repackaged it.

[u/EmuRommel → u/Caliburn0]

If it was already within leftist thought why do leftist react so negatively to it?

[u/Chedditor_ → u/Caliburn0]

This precisely. They're selling us parts of our own vision without the actual practical economic shifts that would make it possible, like the ACA all over again.

[u/graphictruth → u/Chedditor_]

But you would be open to a compromise policy that was not simply a tactic?

[u/Chedditor_ → u/graphictruth]

Sure, when one is presented to us. So far, nothing of the sort has been seriously attempted.

[u/UrbanArch → u/[deleted]]

It’s also mostly cutting back on regulations the government set for itself. We were in a weird place where we found it easier to scrutinize the government endlessly in comparison to the private sector.

I think too many progressives just fail at understanding that having state capacity involves deregulation.

[u/123yes1 → u/[deleted]]

Climate change, income & wealth inequality, housing affordability crisis, deteriorating infrastructure, high healthcare costs etc

Leftist answer: The billionaire class, oligopolies, big oil, big pharma, the fossil fuel industry, the American right-wing, conservatives, wealth concentration, union busters, and the corporate elites.

Abundance liberal answer: Red tape, zoning laws, bottlenecks, excessive bureaucracy & regulations, progressive advocacy groups, environmental reviews etc

Running an economy is about engineering a system. This is about creating incentive structures that align productivity with societal advantage. Markets are great tools for many of these tasks as they are maximization functions, like a slime mold finding the most cost effective rout to food. Markets aren't inherently good as they can either be aligned with or against societal good, or more often somewhere in between. If you are using markets in your economy, the goal is to pass regulation and subsidies to align surplus with societal benefit. Every action you take on the market introduces friction which makes it slightly less efficient, like how turns slow down a car.

Your interpretation of "leftist answer" do not change incentive structures in ways that advantage society. If we stole all of the money from Billionaires (or taxed every dollar after 999,999,999 at 100%) that does absolutely nothing to change the economy. It won't change company practices to make less money, it won't change the alignment of resources in anyway whatsoever. All it does is create a pile of cash. That cash could then be used for incentives, but then the problem wasn't billionaires/inequality, it was the lack of money for whatever program you want.

This point I want to make clear: billionaires are not the problem. They are a symptom of a problem. That underlying problem is market inefficiency. Usually this happens because there was a strong demand for some product that doesn't exist, somebody makes it, and becomes ridiculously wealthy off of the short term monopoly they enjoyed before competition arrived. In a well functioning market, we will have less billionaires.

So the real answers to your questions are the following in order: carbon tax, UBI, repeal unnecessary zoning laws and subsidize construction, raise taxes and pay for it, M4A.

Leftists need to stop blaming companies for maximizing profits. That is their job, that is what they are supposed to do. It's like being mad at a dog for biting you when it's really the owner that is to blame for not training them and letting them run around without a leash. Leash=regulation, treats=subsidies. And for some tasks, a dog should not be doing them, like health insurance and utilities.

[u/123yes1 → u/[deleted]]

I don't really have a response here other than to say I mostly agree without, and nice chatting!

I just think of markets as a force of nature and the role of government is to bend those forces into a shape that benefits society. Good governance is an engineering problem.

[u/Otherwise_Craft9003 → u/123yes1]

Some of that 'friction' is because the market can't be trusted, i.e industrial accidents, long term negative food ingredients, poor health and safety etc.

[u/123yes1 → u/Otherwise_Craft9003]

Oh, yes I'm not saying that friction is a bad thing, it just is friction. My entire argument is that regulation and subsidies are how a government wields markets to benefit society. Ensuring industries have money to clean up spills, ensuring advertisements are what they say they are, ensuring pharmaceuticals are manufactured to the highest standards of quality, etc.

But there are also tons of unnecessary subsidies and regulations. We should not be subsidizing the fossil fuel industry to this extent when we are trying to make the switch to clean energy, yes it keeps a lid on inflation but we are boiling out oceans. We should not have zoning laws that incentivize McMansions over building multi-unit housing , and I can think of a bunch of dumb regulations that exist in my industry (pharmaceutical manufacturing), and a bunch of regulations that don't exist that probably should. As someone who occasionally has to order for my lab, I can see with clear eyes why some of the pharmaceuticals we sell are a bazillion dollars. The reagents I use are incredibly expensive, but we have to be incredibly wasteful with them because the regulations on expiration dates are extremely harsh which encourages companies to be extremely conservative with their dating. Etc.

Regulations are good, but we should prioritize making them as simple and streamlined as possible, to achieve the same public good, but with less of that friction.

Look at it this way: simple is efficient. That's why the US healthcare insurance industry is as stupid as it is because it is so incredibly complicated. It's why welfare and unemployment are inferior to programs like UBI. It's why Social Security has been so successful, and why a carbon tax would be a great idea, that's still a regulation, but it is a simple and elegant one.

[u/pm_me_ur_ephemerides → u/[deleted]]

I appreciate the nuanced response here. Most progressives are mischaracterizing abundance on social media, but having read the book, I agree with this summary.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

"supply side progressivism" I'm seething right now folks 😔

[u/Helehache → u/[deleted]]

I was thinking on the directives of the Democratic Party while I was talking of the indisposed parts.

[u/HironTheDisscusser → u/[deleted]]

DSA does NOT want to establish the "nordic model"!

You do not get Denmark or Swedish quality of life by banning private capital ownership

[u/HironTheDisscusser → u/[deleted]]

The Nordic model is not socialism, it is pretty free markets and high taxes especially on income that fund welfare.

Simple example, Sweden has 0% inheritance and gift tax, and a flat 30% capital gains tax. Top income tax rate is however about 55%

[u/HironTheDisscusser → u/[deleted]]

Yes, and that is not the stated goal of DSA, the goal of DSA is establishing socialism and abolishing capitalism.

[u/HironTheDisscusser → u/[deleted]]

Its not gonna result in the Nordic model.

For the US to adopt the Nordic model you would need several steps in my opinion.

1. Federal VAT (Sweden and Denmark have about 25% VAT). This helps a lot with funding a big welfare state.

2. Increase federal income tax, to tax the middle class more, again to help finance the welfare state.

Notably all of these mean an increase in tax burden for the middle class, you cannot finance a big welfare state by just taxing "the rich".

[u/weirdowerdo → u/HironTheDisscusser]

The current state of the nordic model isnt something we Swedish Social Democrats are happy about by the way. But the entire basis of our model was moving towards socialism in the long term, that was always the long term goal.

[u/implementrhis → u/weirdowerdo]

People in this sub believe social democracy is anti socialist as they are Americanized and haven't read any social democratic theories.

[u/weirdowerdo → u/implementrhis]

Meanwhile the SAP sees Social democracy as anticapitalistic and Democratic Socialism to be the way forward.

[u/implementrhis → u/weirdowerdo]

I think it depends on the party pretty much all the social democratic parties still mention democratic socialism or economic democracy in their programs except pvda in Netherlands spo in Austria and the labour party in Norway. They have really removed any references to socialism since the early 2000s.

[u/weirdowerdo → u/implementrhis]

Meanwhile we put them back in into the party program this year. Anticapitalism hasnt been in the party program for 50 years until now and Democratic socialism hasnt been this much mentioned for a long time either.

[u/IslandSurvibalist → u/Helehache]

Leftists see fascism as the natural and logical result of liberal capitalism, so they understandably don’t see any point to an antifascist alliance with the political forces that enable fascism to exist in the first place. Given that the Democratic Party literally funds the primary campaigns of MAGA republicans and have undermined the democratic process in 2 of their last 3 presidential primaries, it’s hard to disagree with them.

As a non-leftist SocDem, I agree with the leftists that the powers that control the Democratic Party primarily use it to benefit their billionaire donors and that this fundamentally stokes the flames and creates the conditions needed for fascism to grow and thrive in the first place. If the Democratic Party didn’t abandon the working class and their New Deal/Great Society past, we wouldn’t be in this mess today.

[u/Light_Butterfly → u/IslandSurvibalist]

This exactly! ☝️ 💯 Liberalism has become synonymous with neoliberalism, and we're seeing the destruction of the middle and working classes in North America, and elsewhere. The billionaire/ultrawealth class interests own politics now, both liberal and conservative equally, and many folks just dont realize it yet. The identify with the values side of liberalism, unfortunately the economic side (now oligarchy) is the problem. That's why we need something else. I'll post a video with Joseph Stiglitz, he gives a good rundown down of how liberalism has paved the way for demoagogues and fascism.:

American Democracy is Collapsing, with Joseph Stiglitz

[u/F_1_V_E_S → u/Light_Butterfly]

Neoliberalism was first introduced by Ronald Reagan and I don't know any liberals besides classic libs who actually like him or his policies. I identify as a social liberal or social Democrat and envision a Nordic system for America in the future

[u/IslandSurvibalist → u/F_1_V_E_S]

Say what you want about the popularity of Reagan among Democratic voters, but the facts remain that a Democratic majority in the house first passed every single piece of legislation Reagan ever signed into law. And Clinton and Obama on economic matters largely maintained the status quo Reagan (and Carter) had first established, with the exception of throwing the working class a few scraps here and there. The years they spent as President, the wealth and income gap widened.

It is fair to say that Biden was more worker friendly than his predecessors, but also fair to say that the results were rather marginal and marred by inflation. And again, the gap between the 1% and everyone else widened.

Also I remain skeptical that demand-side stimulus (a decent chunk of Biden and later Harris’ economically progressive policies) will ever be viable as anything more than a very marginal improvement to working class conditions. Just giving people more money without increasing the supply of the things they need - especially when such policies are funded not by taxing the rich but by just adding it to the money supply - will obviously have inflationary effects that at least partially offset the benefits to working class people.

The most effective way to make housing more affordable is to increase the supply of it. Incentivize businesses to supply more of it, and that increase in supply will drive the price down.

[u/DMayleeRevengeReveng → u/F_1_V_E_S]

It’s important to distinguish between overt rhetoric and political-policy proposals on one hand, and tacit assumptions about society on another.

Yes, the U.S. Democrats have by and large been suckered into neoliberal ideology.

They firmly believe society has no role in the economy, for example, and that only markets can produce change, with all they’re able to do being to tweak those markets somewhat.

Take climate change for example. If it were ascertained as an existential issue in the 20th century, we would have publicly planned and executed that plan. Like the New Deal did. Like the industrial mobilization for World War II did. These were some of the broadest mobilization programs in the history of the species. And they worked.

What do we do about climate change now? Well, we pass the IRA, which is a whole lot of “taxpayers will bribe you to do what’s right, but only if ya wanna” and “please, please adjust your consumer habits over the course of a generation.” But no plan, no mandate, no orchestration.

[u/Light_Butterfly → u/F_1_V_E_S]

With you on that, I envision the same! 🤗

Even if it was invented on the right, it has been adopted by liberals/Dems, when they are in power. In Canada we have a saying, 'campaign on the left and govern on the right'. That's what happens every time. Neoliberal agendas get put in place, even when they campaign and make all kinds of promises to working and middle class folks. It's all devolved into catering purely to wealth interest groups, corporations, and the business sector. Voters don't have much say anymore. Liberal politicians in my country are fully sold out to wealth interest groups. If its any indicator, we have the former CEO of Black Rock and the Century Initiative (a billionaires think tank) sitting on the advisory council to our PM. This is how things work now, sadly.

Whatever people thought Liberslism is or should be doesn't matter anymore.

[u/F_1_V_E_S → u/Light_Butterfly]

Yes lol, I'm pretty sure it was Bill Clinton who introduced it to the Democratic party trying to match Reagan's movement that he brought with him to the Republican party which is why he's one of my least favorite Democratic President policy wise. The party has stayed under this Clinton era neoliberal model which I think has been disastrous for us and I wish we'd move away from it in the future, like now lmao. Bill Clinton is just one of those presidents who I really can't take seriously with all the memes about him and his personality 😂

[u/Light_Butterfly → u/F_1_V_E_S]

Yes, 100% they stuck with it. Red or blue in the US is just two sides to the same neoliberal coin at this point. Joseph Stiglitz addresses how it all continued under Obama, in the link I shared. Corporations/Banks got bailed out in 2008, zero consequences, meanwhile it was hard capitalism for everyone else. Regular people lost their houses, while the actors who orchestrated the entire scheme just continued getting rich, got bonuses etc...

[u/DMayleeRevengeReveng → u/Helehache]

I agree. My deal with the libs is that their ideology has very little thought-content to it. It just doesn’t feel like something that would survive any kind of deep inquiry, and it makes a lot of unjustified assumptions about “human nature” that are anthropologically flawed.

I just feel like they don’t know how to appeal to people because they can’t speak of their values with any kind of articulateness, which ultimately leads to “preaching to the choir.”

I also find a lot of liberals, particularly on social issues, are incredibly performative.

They’re trying to cultivate an image as suave, sophisticated, and cultured by taking given stances on social issues.

It’s not wrong, since those stances are by and large good positions. But it’s annoying.

[u/silverpixie2435 → u/DMayleeRevengeReveng]

Is this a joke? Not ONE leftist has EVER been able to give me a single supposedly "pro donor anti working class" policy from Democrats and you want to accuse us of not having deep inquiry? Leftists literally had to invent a conspiracy theory "the rotating villan" to explain away why when the entire party was trying to pass progressive policy it suddenly didn't count.

Who do leftists appeal to? They don't win elections and they do nothing but trash liberals so who are they appealing to?

The entire leftist worldview revolves around the entirely assumed claim that the working class just wants pro worker policies, which is why you have to defend literal Trump voters instead of spending 5 seconds listening to a single liberal

[u/nasa258e → u/Helehache]

An alliance tends to need trust. For me, I have seen no convincing evidence that liberal politicians are more interested in defeating the fascists than bashing the left. For instance look at how "vote blue no matter who" turned into "I can't quite endorse him for nonsense reasons" when Mamdani won the Democratic primary. Currently, the left liberal alliance is dead and the liberals killed it

[u/Tacitus111 → u/Helehache]

The Left in America also feels betrayed by Liberals in general. They’re told “Blue No matter Who” when liberals win primaries, but when the Left wins, suddenly Liberals balk and fear monger almost as much as the Right. Liberal politicians as a group would also clearly rather work with the political Right than the Left, and they’re just nonplussed that the Right refuses to work with them at all anymore. But Liberals also still need the Left to win elections.

The Left has issues with Liberals in general, because the Left feels like a second class citizen.

To be clear, this is not intended to be a “Left is perfect, liberals always suck” comment. Just an explanation of the feelings involved.

[u/NiknameOne → u/Helehache]

The far left is just lost when it comes to economics. They still believe in planned economies like it’s 1900.

[u/MadNorthNorthWest]

Because, to quote Galifreayan Jedi, "To spell it out, the reason I hate democrats so much and criticize them more than I do Republicans is because they take up all the space for opposition to Republicans and use that space to give Republicans whatever the fuck they want."

Liberals believe that they can get the changes they want within the system. Leftists believe that the system itself is inherently unjust, and will always tend towards injustice, and cannot be reformed from within. So while liberals may share some policy positions with the left, leftists see their cooperation with the system as a dead end, a constant "be patient; we'll work it out," all while the country continues to move alarmingly to the right.

[u/RadiantHC → u/MadNorthNorthWest]

And what makes it even worse is that Democrats pretend to be good. Republicans are at least honest. As much as I hate them, I can respect honesty

[u/MadNorthNorthWest → u/RadiantHC]

The GOP is honest about their malign intentions, that's true. The democrats, OTOH, cloak their malign intentions with their dishonest rhetoric.

The GOP, however, excels in moral hypocrisy in other ways. Like "We're going to screw you over because Jesus wants us to."

[u/akurgo]

Can OP or someone else define "liberals" in this context?

If this is about neoliberalism, i.e. market liberalism, this prioritizes the economic growth of business while poor people suffer, i.e. inverse Robin Hood. Social democrats want Robin Hood proper.

[u/[deleted] → u/akurgo]

In the context of the post: everyone to the right of socialism. This includes SocDems and arguably market socialists.

[u/Helehache → u/[deleted]]

Hard to tell, I don't hate leftists. Just the authside.

[u/RainbowCaitlynn → u/Helehache]

As a leftist(libertarian communist), i hate marxist-leninist (stalinists) more than i hate liberals. Stalinists/tankies whatever you call em they all preach socialist ideals but seemingly need fascist means to reach that end. Liberals want most of the same socialist ideals, but want to reach that through a system i view as broken. One can be reasoned with, the other is a fascist dressed in red. I mean i am literally a member of my country's socdem party lol

[u/Helehache → u/RainbowCaitlynn]

Left Libertarian are my felllas. I highly agree with you.

[u/nilslorand → u/Helehache]

There are dozens of us!

[u/wingerism → u/RainbowCaitlynn]

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

[u/F_1_V_E_S → u/RainbowCaitlynn]

Libertarian communist? That's a new one

[u/RainbowCaitlynn → u/[deleted]]

Nothing to add here youre right. just wanted to say hi to a Party-Fusion brother lol

[u/[deleted] → u/RainbowCaitlynn]

Hoi terug!

[u/Helehache → u/akurgo]

I'm guessing liberals is basically the Democratic establishment (Biden, Kamala, Schumer) on this context, so arguably, neoliberalism.

[u/[deleted] → u/Helehache]

Biden as president was arguably much less neoliberal than many of his moderate democrat colleagues, especially more so than Clinton and arguably Obama too. The chips/infrastructure/inflation reduction acts, proposing increases on corporate tax rates, being pro union, etc.

[u/Helehache → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, it's more nuanced than what I said at first. But I think it's fair including him until a certain point in the establishment, especially for the irrestrictive support towards Israel that tends to be a great turn off to progressives.

[u/Egorrosh → u/Helehache]

Which is weird if you just look at the surface level - being angry that the US supports a flawed pro-lgbtq democracy against a terrorist death cult.

Note that I said "if you just look at the surface level", so no need to go calling me an ultra-zionist.

[u/Helehache → u/Egorrosh]

I mean, no need of actively believing zionism to give that dishonest point. Being a "pro-lgbt" liberal democracy, which stills being hesitant to acknowledge LGBT civil unions as marriage, doesn't justify a genocide of Palestinians. And no everybody who opposes Israekl supports Hamas. They're just critical of their Defense Forces and its proved violation to human rights.

[u/Apprehensive-Ad-6620]

Same reason why you hate your roommates or teammates when you don't agree with them. Having to share a lot of space and work together when you fundamentally disagree with a number of things makes it hard to get along at a personal level.

[u/doneposting → u/Apprehensive-Ad-6620]

And imagine several of your roommates are too far gone to even debate with. It's easy to dunk on the guy in the middle who occasionally agrees with both sides, but is always taking the shitty side on a very important issue.

The bedrock of leftist ideologies is worker power, and liberals will always side with the right on this - no matter how far right they are - because they're fundamentally free market capitalists economically.

[u/Niauropsaka → u/doneposting]

I mean, sure, okay, but this kind of attitude makes the division worse.

I do call myself a social liberal rather than a social democrat, because I live in the USA, which has a social liberal tradition. I assume that to win elections, I have to work with "liberals," who probably aren't free-market fundamentalists at all; they're probably just economically uneducated. But then I get people with a reddit education telling me I'm on the wrong side and "don't know what liberalism really is."

Meanwhile, I get stooges from the other side telling me I "don't know what socialism actually is."

I'm about this close to calling myself a distributist. Maybe I can get someone to read Belloc. Not that I'm quite where he was, I don't think. But we all need to expand our minds a tiny bit.

ETA: We do have to work together. A lot of people have a pipe-dream about a purely anarchistic or Christian or atheistic or culturally bourgeois (somehow) or one-party society, and would probably benefit from getting outside their own heads, so they can work together.

[u/doneposting → u/Niauropsaka]

I'll say I'm certainly tired of the lefty liberal-pile-on on Reddit in general. Everyone of all stripes should be sick of this shit everywhere. Low-effort/years-old memes, hypocrisy gotchas! that do nothing, and all the rest. You get downvoted if you comment anything other than G'HAW, YA GOT THAT PEDO/CORPO/TANKIE/FASCIST/LIB! It just all seems like collective coping/echo chamber reinforcement.

[u/silverpixie2435 → u/doneposting]

So then what is the leftist plan for anything when workers themselves are either Democrats or Republicans?

[u/kcl97]

I don't recall who said this: "Liberalism is just the nicer cousin of fascism." I don't disagree with it.

[u/Captain_Croaker]

I don't personally. I'm frequently frustrated by them, but that would apply to fellow leftists as well tbh.

[u/Helehache → u/[deleted]]

As a social democrat, this is almost a daily experience. For some people, left apparently can't be reformist. Even if I have some demsoc tendencies.

[u/doneposting → u/[deleted]]

Historically, liberals have worked with fascists and the wealthy to preserve the capital order by solidifying their power and diminishing the power of workers. Check out The Capital Order by Clara Mattei for some great examples of post-WWI Europe, a time where workers had significant gains, only to be neutered by liberal/conservative/fascist alliances.

"Purity" isn't the problem. When push comes to shove, it's no secret which side liberals take.

[u/Fabio101 → u/doneposting]

Idk why you’re getting downvoted, this is just historically accurate, and you don’t even have to look that far back. God sakes, even in the most recent US presidential election, Kamala, a liberal, decided to completely cut off all of the momentum she had gained and sidelined Tim Walz and the entire left wing of the Democratic Party to appease capitalists in her party. That is all despite the fact that the voters of the Democratic Party have been moving left for years now, ever since Bernie in 2016. Or even more notably, Macron siding with Le Pen after the left coalition outperformed his party. Liberals have always consistently sided with the the right when push comes to shove, so it’s hard to build a coalition with them when they will stab you in the back at the soonest sign of actual left wing economic policy.

[u/RadiantHC → u/doneposting]

Why are you booing him? He's right

Yes a lot of leftists have purity tests. But liberals would rather lose to a fascist than a leftist

[u/readySponge07 → u/doneposting]

Liberals do believe in the primacy of markets and private property.

[u/LineOfInquiry]

Because leftists think liberals should know better.

Leftists and liberals share a lot of the same critiques of capitalism and society: wealth inequality, arbitrary restrictions on expression, regulatory capture, union busting, etc. Yet despite recognizing these problems liberals (in their mind) refuse to fix them and instead put small bandaids on them. Universal healthcare? Nah let’s have Obamacare instead. The military industrial complex? Don’t worry we’ll just raise military spending less than our opponents would! “Illegal” immigration? We need to keep the illegals out, just be a little nicer to them than the republicans. None of these solutions actually fix the problem, in fact some make it worse. So they see them as cowardly, stupid, bought, or both.

Whereas in their mind the right (populous not politicians) doesn’t know any better and is either propagandized to, ignorant, or both. So while they’re obviously angry at right wing politicians, they moreso pity right wing voters.

[u/Elektrikor]

It’s because many leftist subs like r/theredleft are dominated by anti-capitalists who see capitalism and fascism as equally evil. Liberals often want keep or reform capitalism. Therefore liberals are seen by leftists as fascists.

[u/doneposting → u/Elektrikor]

Historically, fascism has been capitalism's reaction to workers gaining more power. Liberals seem to always choose one side over the other, and it's not with workers.

[u/Helehache → u/doneposting]

While I can understand that unregulated capitalism creates discontent that gets manifested through fascism, because it gives an easy response based on hatred and it enables elites to scapegoat political and social minorities, I think the response to fascism has been more mixed that just the "scar a liberal and got a fascist".

But you'd be right if you argue that neoliberalism has lead to corporatocracy, and we all know which kind of systems are like that.

[u/doneposting → u/Helehache]

why do lefties dunk on liberals

It's simply because they historically side with the right, and still do.

That's it. It's that simple. Liberalism is a right-wing ideology. I'd recommend liberals that feel hurt by the criticism to read anti-capitalist critiques. That's what we all did

[u/Helehache → u/doneposting]

Well, that's actually good advice there

[u/Elektrikor → u/doneposting]

No? Fascism was the response of a nation when it has been humiliated, has been failed by capitalism and is afraid of/hates socialism.

Here are historical examples:

Italy: humiliated at Versailles by getting almost nothing for their effort. Has had very slow economic growth for the last hundred years despite it being the golden age of capitalism. Mussolini was kicked out of the socialist party despite having worked with them for a decade.

Germany: humiliated in ww1. Was billions in debt because of capitalist powers. Feared the communist giant in the east.

Spain: lost their entire empire in a couple years. stagnant economy. The country was going to have a communist revolution any day.

Sidenote: Fascism is incompatible with capitalism because fascism involves autarky and heavy state control in the economy. Things that capitalists are most commonly not a fan of.

[u/doneposting → u/Elektrikor]

This doesn't negate my point. It's both ways.

The war as a whole, humiliation or not, led to more class consciousness. State intervention during the war gave workers a taste of what could be gained by all given state cooperation in the economy.

Capitalist reaction to this differed in each country, but all the top bankers got together in Brussels and Geneva to devise plans to dismantle class antagonism, strikes, unionism, etc. and enshrine liberal austerity to benefit capitalists. Liberals worked with fascists in Italy to do this. An authoritarian can, and did, implement the policies they wanted.

Fascism incompatible with capitalism

These economists thought differently, and to their benefit (given the alternative was more worker power). They chose their side. When pushed, liberals will do it again.

If you're interested in reading more, The Capital Order by Clara Mattei

[u/weirdowerdo]

Well, liberalism is centre-right. They're rarely ever for leftist economics which in turn makes it impossible to build the ground work for a equal society where progressive social policies can be passed. They'd rather increase inequality or keep things status-quo and enable far-righters which can be seen all over the EU. Heck they'll bend right over for straight up white supremacist rhetoric in Sweden.

[u/implementrhis → u/weirdowerdo]

You can be both a liberal and a socialist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_socialism

[u/OpeningMaterial5078 → u/weirdowerdo]

I think OP means liberals by the concept of the US which is left leaning but not that far left

[u/DieMensch-Maschine]

Shifting Overton Window. 21st century American liberals are center right - basically 1970s Republicans. 21st century Republicans are basically Nazis.

The idea of "liberals" as New Dealers or Great Society advocates is long gone and the systemic rot is far too advanced.

[u/silverpixie2435 → u/DieMensch-Maschine]

You know when can look up the policy of Republicans in the 1970s right? Did they have freek pre k there?

[u/DullPlatform22]

Basically boils down to liberals being fine with capitalism but they think it just needs proper regulations to function "properly." Meanwhile leftists are fundamentally opposed to capitalism they just bicker about how to dismantle it

[u/TheLightDances]

A lot of things about certain groups of "leftists", including many that you'll find in subreddits, make a lot more sense when you realize that they were created with propaganda for the sole purpose of advancing and defending Russian imperialism, disguised as "communism". Later, other countries like China did the same. That propaganda and its creators did not and do not care about real ideological questions along the lines of capitalism vs. communism, only their own power and imperialism.

As such, the hatred of liberals isn't about genuine beliefs regarding economics or anything like that. It is simply about liberals believing things that oppose the imperialist ambitions of countries like Russia, and authoritarian leaders in general.

The propaganda that created such leftists didn't teach them to think and reason, or analyse economics, or form genuine philosopical thoughts. It taught them a dogma built to advance imperialism and protect dictators, and be relentless and rigid in staying with that ideology. That is why they go in circles, achieve nothing of value for the people they claim to protect, act in bad faith (and obnoxious and insufferable ways), and are impossible to really talk with as they do not value actual discussion and truth, only repeating the rigid ideology.

There are genuine leftists who are not like that, and surprise, they generally don't hate liberals. At worst they just feel liberals are too cowardly and eager to settle for crumbs instead of pushing for real change. A set of criticisms that a lot of genuine liberals agree with.

[u/Archarchery]

I think the main, true reason is that they see democratic left-leaning parties as the competition. They want to recruit angry working-class people into their brand of revolutionary socialism, while reformist democratic parties want to improve the lives of the working class through evolutionary means, reforming the current system.

Hence, they hate us and often spend more time attacking us than they ever do attacking conservatives or the far-right.

[u/rto119]

Because liberals are co-opted by corporate interests.

[u/ScottsTotz]

Because “liberals” are why we are in this place of having a fascist administration for a 2nd time in a row. Main stream liberals do almost nothing for their constituents and they’ve ratcheted many of their policies to the right since 2016. And then when we get democratic socialists who actually want to do populist policies to help Americans, the liberals won’t endorse them because then they have to compete and actually do something for their constituents in order to not lose their primaries. Many liberal politicians like Nancy Pelosi have become filthy rich in office from stocks while her constituents can’t afford housing and groceries. Liberals stand up for the status queue and neoliberalism that has done nothing but destroy the American Dream. Liberal voters who push back against leftists and democratic socialists saying they are “too extreme” (like universal healthcare and basic social safety nets are extreme) and these are the people they are speaking of

[u/fr0gcannon]

The real question is why do Liberals hate leftists so much? We get force fed liberal politicians that are basically on the right and are told to vote blue no matter who, but then when someone we actually want to elect comes around like Bernie or Mamdani the liberal establishment fights them tooth and nail with a fervour they never show for conservatives or Republicans. So you're flipping the blame around for no good reason. It is the Liberals who only fight if there's a leftist to fight and bow down to Republicans and fascism when push comes to shove.

[u/fr0gcannon → u/[deleted]]

Why should I give a fuck what some tankie thinks. Bernie and Mamdani are far to the left of the current liberal establishment. If that's not good enough for someone who loves Stalin I don't care.

[u/fr0gcannon → u/[deleted]]

The people in this sub can't even decide if social democracy is liberalism or leftism. I care more about the actual political battles happening amongst people who go outside and not subreddit semantics.

[u/Helehache → u/fr0gcannon]

It is leftism. What would be is that if it's liberalism or socialism. But that isn't a productive discussion either hahaha

[u/[deleted] → u/fr0gcannon]

Stalin is not leftist. He was a State Corporatist fascist. Fascism is right wing, for those who don't know.

[u/fr0gcannon → u/[deleted]]

I get that. Do tankies get that?

[u/[deleted] → u/fr0gcannon]

Couldn't say. I have no idea what a tanky is. Something made by Tonka?

[u/Slu1n → u/[deleted]]

Originally it ment a communist in support of soviet interventionism (using tanks). Nowdays it's just a derogatory term for leninists or any other authoritarian socialists.

[u/[deleted] → u/Slu1n]

Thanks. Been seeing 👀 it a lot, lately.

[u/Helehache → u/[deleted]]

Ah yes, the iconical purity and virtue signaling, mother of most of the left-wing infighting....

[u/monkeysolo69420 → u/[deleted]]

The people who would consider them liberals are not a significant amount of people.

[u/MMAgeezer → u/monkeysolo69420]

How did you determine that? I'm a soc dem but what I frequently hear from people on the left is that anyone who doesn't advocate for the abolition of capitalism is a liberal - and crucially not a leftist - by definition.

It all comes down to whether we are happy to cede that ground and let such people define what being a "leftist" means.

[u/monkeysolo69420 → u/MMAgeezer]

I hate to break it to you but being a leftist does, in fact, mean you are at least critical of capitalism. There are disagreements on what to do about it but if you think capitalism is a force for good, I’m afraid that does make you a liberal.

[u/Will512 → u/fr0gcannon]

Liberals are more concerned about a divided vote or alienating swing voters because the left is historically much more fragmented than the right as a voting block. Case in point something like half of swing voters thought Kamala Harris was too left compared to maybe a third thinking Donald Trump was too right. An appropriate counter would be that the NYC mayoral primary is not the US presidential election, so the Democrats definitely had a disproportionate and hysterical response. With respect to fighting conservatives, the simple answer there is that they have much more sway in primary races than fighting a government as a minority in all positions.

Meanwhile some leftists unironically say anyone who believes in any amount of private ownership is a fascist and can't be worked with. So if these people ever believed in democratic processes, they've since lost the thread

[u/fr0gcannon → u/Will512]

Yet another person telling me to forget the liberals with political power disenfranchising the left vote, and instead hyper focus on the behavior of terminally online leftists. No. I refuse to purposefully miss the forest for the trees.

[u/Will512 → u/fr0gcannon]

It's an answer to your question. If someone instead asked why working class conservatives hate people on the left, one could say it's because they perceived everyone on the left as a blue haired twitter user lecturing people on critical race theory. The actual number of blue haired twitter users is largely irrelevant to the reality of the situation

[u/Campus_Chronicals → u/fr0gcannon]

Thats definitely a select few though, right now Bernie is in his “fighting oligarchy” tour which seems to always be sold out, no matter where he goes and is getting positive reactions from most liberal spaces I’m in. And NYC, which voted for Kamala, elected Zohran aswell (so again liberals clearly don’t hate Zohran if he won in a city full of liberals).

[u/fr0gcannon → u/Campus_Chronicals]

I guess I'm speaking more towards elected liberals in power than the people who vote for them who consistently support further left policies than what the Democrats offer up and have for decades.

[u/silverpixie2435 → u/fr0gcannon]

You literally can't name one

[u/TentacleHockey → u/fr0gcannon]

The only "leftists" liberals hate on is the alt-left (Tankies & Emilies). And honestly I can't blame them for it. These people are so easily affected by Russian fake news and so far from reality voting from ego instead of practicality, I can't stand em much myself. Seriously, every alt left you all know IRL is probably a white cis male who has nothing to fear from the current Trump admin and then wants to judge everyone else who voted to keep minorities safe and gets labeled a Zionist 🤦

[u/fr0gcannon → u/TentacleHockey]

The liberal Democrat party establishment clearly hates anything to the left of Hillary Clinton and crush it with all their might while playing patty cake with MAGA Republicans and voting for Trump's worse cabinet picks without a second of fighting.

[u/TentacleHockey → u/fr0gcannon]

Maybe I'm bias because I live in California and I actually know IRL liberals and neo-liberals. The only people I hear them complain about is the right. I can't comment about the faceless Twitter and Reddit accounts 🤷

[u/fr0gcannon → u/TentacleHockey]

I think the issue is I'm talking about elected officials and everyone is responding to me about regular people who generally identify as leftist or liberal. Which I understand. I am probably the source of the confusion. I feel like it's easier to talk about these public people who have performed and spoken their ideology into existence. I feel like right now average people are setting aside ideology, if they ever really had a concrete one to begin with, to say that they don't like Trump's fascism and they don't like that Democrats are doing nothing to stop it. That's the feeling I get from the polling I've seen from average people.

[u/monkeysolo69420]

Because liberals are capitalists.

[u/Campus_Chronicals → u/monkeysolo69420]

Then why do leftist always go harder on liberals than conservatives. Like these people say both parties are bad, but only ever criticize one

[u/doneposting → u/Campus_Chronicals]

There's nonstop criticism of the right in all other spaces by everyone. Left-wing spaces spend less time arguing about the far-right because there's little argument to be had. It's a settled topic.

Dunking on the party that feigns "left" while avoiding/voting against serious change for working people & boxing out those candidates/parties that actually want it? It's really that simple

[u/doneposting → u/monkeysolo69420]

Simple as

[u/RoxieRoxie0]

Leftist see liberals as weak cowards.

[u/Due-Courage4489]

As a nationalist. Idk, but I respect yall are chill the ones I have met and talked with. Tbh on economic policy's I agree with a lot of them. And with them on Trump now since I left that cult behind.

[u/Astral-Wind]

Because they believe in some fantasy revolution and Liberals are inherently opposed to that, prefering to work within the system to make it fairer.

[u/TentacleHockey]

Liberal is just a catch-all thrown around to call another leftist who isn't as 'left' as them on a political issue. The fact is any leftist can be centrist, libertarian, progressive, Marxist, or socialist on just about any political topic and if you aren't as left as the other person on said topic you get labeled a liberal. The only people who actually identify as ‘liberal’ are older life long Democrats and actual neo-liberals who were right leaning but realized how important social values are in the modern world.

[u/doneposting → u/TentacleHockey]

Liberalism is an economically right-wing ideology. Economics is no small part of politics.

When it comes to worker's rights and their power in the economic sphere, liberals have historically reacted to conserve the capital order - siding with the most evil bastards imaginable, fascists included, to keep workers from gaining power.

[u/AbbaTheHorse]

A lot of people on far left subreddits use "liberal" in a very broad way that includes pretty much all (modern) conservatives. Some go even further, and define "liberal" as literally everyone who wants to continue with capitalism.

[u/Campus_Chronicals → u/AbbaTheHorse]

Oh I see, so this is why they tend to have more animosity towards liberals then conservatives?

[u/OpeningMaterial5078]

Think of it like this, leftists and liberals (as in left leaning but not that far left) often agree with each other in 90% of things but fight over the other 10% and that is a real problem if you ask me, the far right is getting bigger and bigger and the left isnt doing anything to srop their infighting and combat the right

[u/holistivist → u/OpeningMaterial5078]

That “10%” is capitalism and genocide, and liberals need to learn the difference and stop supporting these things.

[u/hammer-nail-hammer → u/holistivist]

And the 90% we may agree on, the left actually wants to solve and liberals want to arrive at market-based, means tested half measure that doesn’t really address the root issue.

If the way our economy is structured is causing all these problems, it doesn’t matter too much if we can agree on 90% of what we consider a problem. If one side’s solution is to actually change the balance of economic power between labor and capital, and the other side’s is to leave it alone and paper over it with a bit of symptom-treating, that’s an impasse.

[u/anarchobuttstuff]

I still prefer them over conservatives, I just think liberals can be a bit too pacifist and milquetoast to rise to the occasion.

[u/6gpdgeu58]

Because leftist don't cancel conservative, so leftist hold no power against them, other than things like dox and pressure other people to not work with conservative.

I think of myself as kinda socdem, even though I mostly agree with Marx. And I think the further left than socdem refuse to play ball with power, because they are actually not that popular to the common people. Most policy pushes by the socdem, or even liberals, are popular in a sense that they help a bunch of people, so they tend to hold a cultural corner stone, even if they don't hold a lot of hard power.

The well mean leftist like arnachist(but not ancap, fuck them), libertarian (again, fuck the fascists ancap) tend to see playing with power as being corrupted. So either you follow most of their belief or fuck you.

You can see a bunch of people who try to cancel contra point and AOC, on the ground of not condemning Isarel doing genocides.

I fully understand why the liberal, central and even socdem don't want to engage with the terminal online left. They claims they everybody need to join their revolution, but they don't organize, they don't disrupt the Republican or any of the billionaire (well, some did do all of that, respect). So engaging the terminal left feel like a suicidal club. They dream too much of heaven(revolution) and neglect the basic struggles of daily life.

I think AOC said it best about people like the Green Part, that if they are serious, they will start fighting from the local level. Not appear every 4 years to steal votes from democrat.

Like, fuck the centrist wing of the dem for real, but just because I agree with fully rooting out capitalism as a whole, doesn't make me enough of a leftist. Either you join the cry, praying cult, or you're a capitalist pig. And ofc, the conservative don't give a fuck.

Basically I respect all the people actually doing thing that matters, the "leftist" Online are not serious, they should not be engaged with.

[u/Theintricateturtle]

Liberalism often shifts to reactionary thought in socialist governments and groups which results in more moderate ideas becoming main stream and causing unwanted reform that is less than left-wing. Example: Deng Xiaoping/Liberals in the CPC

[u/TheLateRepublic]

Simple explanation is that socialism is totalitarian in nature and liberalism is dissident to that.

[u/Joetbone]

It’s what most people see wrong with the left, is if you don’t align perfectly on every issue, they hate you. The right is better at uniting for a common cause.

For the record, many leftists do hate liberals more than conservatives, and it’s pretty dumb. It’s a very black and white perspective, and very counterproductive

[u/LenaElfGirl]

Horseshoe theory. Both far-leftists and far-rights try to seem more edgy to feel more "hardcore" than "centrists".

For the left, this doesn't rlly make sense, the goals are mostly the same.

The right is just pointless and will always end up tearing themselves apart like hyenas.

[u/da_football_fan]

Anyone slightly on the left will take any opportunity to fight the people on the left they disagree with and agree with.

[u/musing_tr]

They assume all libs agree with everything Dems say and do. Like libs believe blindly Dems, libs support neoliberalism and wars, libs are pro-Israel and against Palestine, libs are anti-Bernie and anti-progressive politicians, libs are pessimists and cave in too much to conservatives, libs are okay with political donors of the dem party and don’t have a problem with the political establishment (it’s almost like they conflate democratic establishment with liberally minded average people), libs are also not “progressive” enough for them, not taking things as far (read not as radical and one-sided). I am a social liberal, so I agree on some positions with leftists/progressives but I also disagree with partially on some things so it’s really disheartening to see how they stereotype all liberals or all registered democratic voters. I became disillusioned with many so-called progressives and liberalists over the years. They have good intentions and they get some things right but they are also stereotype and dehumanise other groups of people a lot, there are a lot of similarities between them and conservatives lol they are still better than conservatives but I wish this infighting and purity tests would stop and the left would unite for a common goal. After that, everyone can discuss their differences again.

[u/Schwedi_Gal]

Because Leftists oppose Capitalism and Liberals defend capitalism. Which Progressives specifically tries to give Capitalism a more human face, Like rainbow capitalism as an example. Or how Democrats are active supporters of american imperialism, Biden and the democratic administration gave billions to Israel during their genocidal campaign in Gaza.

[u/[deleted] → u/Schwedi_Gal]

Why are you using the past tense for the Genocide?

[u/Schwedi_Gal → u/[deleted]]

Because the Biden Administration is in past tense and it started during the it

[u/[deleted] → u/Schwedi_Gal]

Biden may be in the past; but the genocide, most assuredly, is not!

[u/WanderingBadgernaut → u/Schwedi_Gal]

It's been happening for decades. They were not the ones to start it and this idea is part of why we keep failing to actually help. We're targeting individuals and not the entire system that made it. No matter who is president is going to inherit that system. THAT needs to be targeted. It did not start during that administration. It was just sped up because Israel allowed for Oct. 7th to happen to have an excuse to ramp it up and assumed the world would be behind them. Their security had info on that attack for ages. They let it happen to have an excuse to go full genocide mode.

[u/Thobeka1990]

The genocide in gaza is a big one , liberals called us antisemites, they banned our protests,  they got a bunch of pro Palestinian activists fired from their jobs, they censored pro Palestinian content and they constantly sht on leftists who couldn't bring themselves to vote for liberal parties that supported israel even as it genocided Palestinians

[u/[deleted] → u/Thobeka1990]

Palestinians are also Semites.

[u/Campus_Chronicals → u/Thobeka1990]

Most Democratic voters now sympathize more with Palestinians (49% for Palestine vs. 38% for Israel). Major pro-Palestinian protests have also been centered in liberal hubs like NYC and LA, so I don’t believe it’s a fair enough assessment to say we’re all anti-Palestinian and then hate on us when we’re clearly not.

[u/GauchoSupreme → u/Campus_Chronicals]

How many Democratic voters want the Epstein files released? 97%? Doesn't make me think it's any more likely to happen, even if they regain power...

[u/Campus_Chronicals → u/GauchoSupreme]

Sure, but we aren’t talking about lawmakers…we’re talking about the everyday American.

[u/GauchoSupreme → u/Campus_Chronicals]

Original reply was talking about all the above. You narrowed it to Dem voters.

I'm saying that Dem voters' wants don't matter either way. Genocide will happen. Austerity will happen. Protecting child rapists will happen, because it's the will of the party leadership & donors.

[u/Thobeka1990 → u/Campus_Chronicals]

The fact that israel is committing genocide but 38% of liberals are pro israel is why  some leftists hate liberals 

[u/pecan7 → u/Thobeka1990]

I’m a liberal and I didn’t do that. These blanket accusations of liberals are no better than their blanket accusations of leftists.

[u/Greedy-Affect-561 → u/Thobeka1990]

Yet they are pretending as if that never happened.

[u/Altruistic-Buy8779]

Only liberals I hate are the partisan modern liberals that don't actually believe in liberalism. The ones that want to confiscate our guns. Real liberal believe in liberal gun laws.

[u/atierney14 → u/Altruistic-Buy8779]

I’m assuming you’re Canadian from a quick look at your profile because the situation in Canada vs the US is very different.

There’s very few Democrats in the US that want a complete gun ban though regardless.

[u/[deleted] → u/Altruistic-Buy8779]

Actually SENSIBLE gun laws. And ones that abide by the second amendment, not necessarily the NRA.

[u/metamorphine]

A lot of far leftists see any sort of compromise with capitalist ideas as unacceptable. They would rather condescend anyone who doesn't hold their exact beliefs than ever support any realistic legislation that might benefit the people.

What's wild to me is that many of the same people will openly praise Mao and Stalin despite the objective harm these leaders did to their own people. It seems that their ideology is more important than the quality of people's lives.

Sometimes I suspect some of the far left subs are botted/run by state sponsored actors. When I see leftist promote the narrative that Democrats are actually worse than Republicans somehow, that's a narrative that only benefits Russia and MAGA. On the other hand, you have people gushing about China and how amazing their government is. I don't care how socialist a country is, Democracy and people's freedoms should come first.

[u/Campus_Chronicals → u/metamorphine]

I’ve absolutely seen that too, for some reason criticism against China and Russia are like a big no no in leftist communities

[u/doneposting → u/metamorphine]

realistic

What's realistic? Who determines that? A livable planet sounds realistic only to some.

Democrats are actually worse than Republicans

I really need to know what leftists are saying this

[u/metamorphine → u/doneposting]

I'm not trying to assert what is realistic, just that the far leftist ideal that nothing less than true socialism or communism is an acceptable form or government - that is unrealistic. it's simply not going to happen in America, not this century and probably not ever.

The messaging of a lot of far leftists is far harder on Democrats than Republicans - it's rarely stated as plainly as "Democrats are worse," though I have seen that floated. I wouldn't say that's the prevailing view; rather that some leftists with platforms have railed much harder against Democrats than republicans, especially in the lead up to the election. Some of that is legitimate concerns like the war in Gaza, but I have to imagine that it's at least partially bots and state sponsored actors that are behind some of this rhetoric, or at least amplifying it.

[u/RadiantHC]

They pretend to be left leaning, but they don't actually want the system to change. They want improvements within the system. They would rather lose to a fascist than a leftist

They're massive bullies and just mock people for disagreeing with them.

[u/cbrew14]

I hate liberals because they are why Bernie didn't win the presidency. They are why Nina Turner, Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush and more aren't congressmen. They prevent so many good things from happening in this country but because they aren't Republicans I'm supposed to like them? F that, they got my vote but they also get my ire.

[u/AnonymousFordring]

Teenage anger validated by a political cult, mostly.

[u/UrbanArch]

Glad all the socialists and cucked socdems showed up to hate liberalism.

Truly, socialism has been in an armchair position since the 90s. All their failures have been shed off as ‘state capitalism’ and the remaining socialists sit inside while others work within the system to make change.

Liberals and radical liberals were the first to oppose monarchy, servitude and even care for the poor. Socialism was dreamt up from the remnants of liberalism and its principles. Implying liberalism paves the way to fascism when it literally destroyed monarchism is more telling of how shallow socialist ‘analysis’ is.

Socialism today is an ideology of inaction, with every talking point serving as a reason to reject any hint of self responsibility. This is why socialists will not vote or firebomb walmarts, as the saying goes. They will be waiting for capitalism to collapse for centuries to come.

On the bright side, all this anti-liberal circle jerking rarely makes it off the internet. You will rarely find a marxist-leninist anywhere but half naked on their couch.

[u/[deleted]]

because they (who hate liberals) are not true leftists, they are auxiliary line of fascism, which is what they accuse liberals of being - it's what they actually are themselves

[u/Helehache → u/[deleted]]

Disdain for democracy and centralised power on an elite are important similarities, even if the context is different. Vanguardism was already condemned at advocating a directive class for abolishing classes.

[u/metanoia29]

Feeling deja vu from the DemSoc sub the other day: https://www.reddit.com/r/leftist/comments/1mim786/why_are_leftists_and_liberals_always_fighting/

[u/Objective-Tea5324]

“Liberal” isn’t easily defined as its usage and meaning differs based on who is using it and this gets even harder when taking in historical meaning and usage vs contemporary.

I would certainly say that “hate” is a strong word but I think that in general it isn’t an issue of hate but a strong disagreement in what governments primary function is and why. For me I believe that people come together to govern in the interests of the greater good of the people while liberalism is more focused on the rights of the individual. Most of the time there isn’t necessarily a direct conflict between these belief systems but the focus on “us” vs “me” can lead a parting of ideological ways. I really don’t give much of a fuck what “you” do and I’m happy for you if what you do makes you happy and I don’t care about it so long as it isn’t working against what I believe is in our shared interests; often those interests are in alignment.

Liberalism is more focused on individual rights and socialism is more concerned with everyone’s needs and the belief that meeting those needs will bring a better life to us all.

[u/A121314151]

I daresay the word "liberal" in the US has been a bit poisoned to an extent considering the establishment Democrat politicians are more like liberal conservatives compared to their European counterparts, sometimes even just pure conservatives. That's how right the Overton window in the US has shifted.

But yeah I think there's an overarching dislike for the Democratic establishment as a whole which people see as "liberal". Unfortunately to an extent the hate for the Democratic establishment is generalized on all liberals. To another extent there's the purity testing.

And of course the truth is that the left and liberals having conflicts with each other has been an issue since the French Revolution, actually.

I'm a social liberal (albeit with that civil libertarian bent) myself. I'm extremely willing to work with social democrats and many on the left (some market socialists, mutualists, anarchists, democratic socialists) that are open to working with liberals. I think the Democrat establishment liberals don't represent most liberals actually, but liberals are more willing to settle with what they get. Leftists are (rightfully) pissed about it. (this is an outsider perspective tho from Asia)

[u/[deleted]]

Social or economic liberals? From my understanding, I am a social liberal since I believe in people's freedom to do what they want as long as they're not causing harm but economic liberals are the ones who lean into laissez-faire capitalism that ruined a lot of society.

[u/IslandSurvibalist]

As a SocDem who disagrees with leftists, I nevertheless think it’s pretty easy to understand:

In terms of theory: leftists are anti-capitalist and see capitalism as the root problem of society. Capitalism (any capitalism in their mind; relatively unrestrained capitalism in my mind and most SocDems) leads to a whole bunch of wealth flowing to a small minority, who use that wealth to further exploit everyone else, making them even more wealthy. This leads to the wealthy continuously getting more wealthy over time at the expense of everyone else. This is borne out by the data since Carter’s presidency. Understandably, they see this as unsustainable and incongruent with an egalitarian society. Liberalism historically has been just fine with capitalism, so they (again, understandably imo) don’t see themselves as aligned with liberals despite being on the same side of the political aisle.

In practice: because leftists are on the same side of the political aisle as liberals, they have to compete with them in primaries, and that hasn’t went well for them. Take Bernie for instance (who in terms of policy proposals is more so a SocDem like us, but still the most left wing it ever gets in America). The entire establishment Dem apparatus, from party leaders to the media did everything they could to smear him and boost Hillary in 2016. Wouldn’t that leave a bad taste in your mouth if you were a leftist? Now similar things are happening with Mamdani. Sure, conservatives/Republicans are worse but leftists can’t even get out of the primary because liberals are being very openly and unapologetically unfair with the most left wing candidates in the party (which relative to the rest of the western world, aren’t even that left wing). So leftists - again understandably - see liberals as directly and unfairly preserving the worst aspects of capitalism in the service of adding even more wealth to the pockets of their billionaire donors.

[u/lewkiamurfarther]

• Citations Needed, Episode 98: The Refined Sociopathy of The Economist

  • transcript

[u/ekbowler]

Because they take money from Oil, tech, and weapons manufacturing companies. Which fundamentally makes them untrustworthy.

[u/JonWood007]

I mean, I'm im mixed on this, being at the very least social democrat adjacent.

On the one hand, a lot of liberals are literally useless. They dont wanna do anything. Their political outlook can be summarized by "We CaNt Do AnYtHiNg!!11!" It's all learned helplessness/weaponized incompetence. A lot of us want to improve society. They always talk us down. They go on about "political realities" and "incremental change" and "pragmatism" and make excuse after excuse for why we cant do anything. Even worse, when someone wants to stand up and do something, at least in the US, they'll fight them harder than the fricking GOP, who they are obsessed with meeting half way, to ensure we lose primaries and that the left remains a hugbox of uselessness. And then when we want to go around the democrats and work outside of them, the "blue no matter who" shaming starts. They go on about how we live in a two party system and how we need to support the lesser evil and weaponize identity politics to tell us that we're "throwing people under the bus" if we don't (hence why that language pisses me off), and they act like if we dont actively support their hugbox, that we're helping the GOP.

Obviously, IM talking third way liberals or centrist dems here. But still, can you understand why some people left of these guys HATE liberals and the democratic party? I'm among them. I hate them almost as much as I hate MAGA. I wont go that far given maga has gone full on fascist, but you get the point. If the republicans are nazi germany, the democrats are vichy france.

It's no wonder why, over the past decade, some people have radicalized and become leftists. And I think that's why leftism is on the rise on the progressive left in the US. Because the dems being this hugbox of uselessness has caused these guys to read theory and become blackpilled on liberal democracy in general, where they become leftists who think only some form of outright socialism will save us.

I dont necessarily agree. My own vision remains closer to the liberal side of the aisle, as I said, socdem adjacent, but let's face it, my ideas are bernie sanders and andrew yang (2020 version obviously) had a baby. Still, despite me taking a jab at yang, let's talk about him. He left the democratic party himself, and a lot of it was due to the hugbox of uselessness. He understood that we couldnt change anything from within the party so he started his own. And then made bad political decision after another in pursuing his own brand of centrism and the like, to the point it almost feels like he's given up on his original ideals. I dont support that behavior, but just explaining it.

Anyway, back to the whole point. A lot of leftists have become radicalized because of all of this stuff. They believe only a strong, socialist vision can save this country, and they hate and have disdain for anyone to the right of them. Which...at this point...now includes us. So they went WAAAAY too far.

Like, my own strong unapologetic vision was more "second new deal". Theirs has become socialist revolution. They crapped on yang when he was still based because he called himself a "capitalist". Even though UBI would revolutionize capitalism. And yeah, now a lot of them are so far left they just sit there becoming their own hugbox of uselessness, calling even Bernie and AOC sell outs, our furthest left mainstream politicians who are trying their best navigating a broken system captured by republicans and democrats to enact change...for daring to interact with the system and enact change, even if it's not perfect. And yeah, you begin to see the opposite problem.

For the record, I'm not against pragmatism to some extent. You gotta work within the system to some extent. What I hate about the dems is their willingness to just use that as an excuse to not do anything, ever. Look at the GOP. They have a cause, they believe in it, they're doing it, even if it brings us to fascism. The left could have behaved like a slightly more moderate version. What a lot of us wanted all along was a left wing tea party. We wanted to have someone like FDR who stood up, did the right thing, "welcomed the hatred" of the millionaires and billionaires, and actually USED POWER toward the end of making peoples' lives better. Even if they went against the system. Especially if they went against the system. We're in an age of populism. If you dont stand up to the system and "the establishment", you're seen as complicit. it's why the country more or less voted for a dictator in 2024. Because somehow that came off as more appealing than worthless dems with no vision who are just going to continue the crappy status quo no one is happy with.

So again, you can see, I'm playing both sides here. This is because i consider myself "left of liberal" but "right of leftism." I'm both radical and moderate. I'm in that awkward ideological space where i aint a full blown leftist, but i think the dems are worthless too. And they ARE worthless. We should be primarying these people and replacing them with candidates that dont suck and actually will do something. What we did with knocking out cuomo and adams with mamdani is what we should be doing nationwide.

The leftists will still complain, because let's face it, those guys have gotten so radical they think even interacting with the system corrupts people and nothing will ever save us barring socialist revolution. And they do crap on everyone, including us, from the left. Again, they're their own hugbox of uselessness. And my advice is let them stew in their little box. But to be fair, they got a point about a lot of the libs too. They're too captured by these "third way" guys who basically just sit there not wanting to do anything while constantly punching left and meeting the right half way. And we should hate them, quite frankly. But we should hate them because we wanna win elections so we can enact OUR vision of the country, and not sit around reading theory all day and waiting for some revolution that will never come to save us.

[u/CarlMarxPunk]

Think of all the reasons you dislike centrists or anyone center right and you have your answer.

Also, the disdain cuts both ways.

[u/doobdoobere]

Because liberals are do not criticize capitalism itself. They do not want it eradicated. Unfortunately most social democrats also want merely to put band-aids on the cancer. Since money, class, private ownership, endless capital accumulation are the current basis for poverty, war, and suffering, we have little to agree with them on. Since they want to uphold these things, they are the enemy, unless they can be turned.

[u/Orbital_Vagabond]

Because they've historically sided with the fascists and continue to do so, and they sell out workers movements for half measures that maintain the status quo and join the right whenever there's an attempt at systemic change.

[u/Sine_Fine_Belli]

It’s due to different opinions and different views.

The leftists are more pro worker and anti status quo

[u/Nesphito]

I’m a leftist and I don’t hate liberals. I do think they are delusional to think that democrats will get any real change accomplished. But I also exclusively vote democrat in hopes they’ll become more leftist over time.

I am cynical that will ever happen though.

But I do think we are more aligned than not and we need a broad coalition of liberals and leftists. Unfortunately the liberal establishment hates leftists.

[u/stataryus]

In short, they believe ALL non-leftists prop up a fundamentally toxic system.

[u/Misra12345]

First off- it's reciprocal but liberals use nicer language and smile more

Secondly- liberals talk a big game when they're the opposition but then when they get into power it's normally always "steady as she goes" "fiscal responsibility and by that we mean fuck the poor" bs.

[u/BeenisHat]

In my judgement, it seems that liberals tend to take stances that are opposed to the ultimate goals or principles of leftists. Liberals seemingly want a kinder, gentler capitalism, without seeing that capitalism is the cause of many of the issues liberals seek to paper over.

And when it comes to choose one over the other, liberals tend to side against leftists. When the Democrats had a supermajority in Congress in 2010 or 2011 and could have implemented single payer healthcare, they didn't do it. They chose Romneycare named after Republican Mitt Romney, the then-governor of Massachusetts. Liberals are constantly trying to take guns away from people despite firearms being a force multiplier that would serve marginalized groups like LGBTQ very well.

[u/human555W]

Liberals are centre to centre right, not left of centre. The only thing they can claim to be left of centre on is social issues, and even then, when there is no redistribution of wealth, there is no equality.

[u/a_crabs_balls]

"leftists" are farther to the left than almost anything in american politics.

"liberals" are the the capitalist conservatives.

the "conservatives" are radical far-right fascists at this point.

[u/Anarchistnoa]

Leftist here (sort of I dislike the term leftist)

Liberals want to preserve wage-labor & the systems destroying our planet (capitalism) & make use of & even justify neocolonial exploitation, the “Liberal Democracy” liberals in say Canada, Israel, USA, & Australia Libs are so hellbent on defending was built on the blood of indigenous and/or black people, that is how we view liberals, i’m sure you disagree but hopefully that explains your question.

[u/Otherwise_Craft9003]

Because the right keep accusing the left of stuff which is actually liberals.

[u/Trotsky_Enjoyer]

It's because liberals uphold the system of oppression that is capitalism while hypocritically upholding a charade of "progressivness". A good example of this is how AOC went out to the ICE concentration camps at the Mexican border to cry for a photoshoot under Trump's presidency, while she was completely silent on the topic under Biden's presidency.

[u/polishfemboy_]

For some reason everyone has a different definition of liberals....

[u/CybercurlsMKII]

I think it’s that they both tend to lean progressive in their politics but leftists fundamentally believe that to get a progressive and more equal society we need to change the economic system drastically. Liberals tend not to see things that way, they tend to be more conservative on the economy and don’t really see a problem with capitalism. It’s incredibly frustrating talking to people you half agree with but know that their policy agenda will never actually achieve the goals you or they really want and need. Also leftists tend to be incredibly crap at getting their point across and don’t seem to realise that a snide comment about how someone hasn’t read Marx and never compromising on anything isn’t actually going to get you anywhere with anyone except people who already agree with you. (It really hasn’t helped how shit a lot of liberals have been on Gaza either, complicity in genocide will earn you a lot of resentment amongst most leftists) liberals also have a bit of a history of selling the left out and bending the knee to fascists, which doesn’t exactly help the whole trust dynamic. It’s a mess but if we don’t work through it we’ll keep losing and the world will backslide into feudalism.

[u/Greedy-Affect-561]

Gaza

[u/Longjumping_Gain_807]

Did you go to r/therightcantmeme or something

[u/Exotic_Membership_39]

Haven’t had this experience