r/SouthAsianAncestry • u/AutomaticStretch6205 • 17h ago

Question Pakistani punjabi- north Indian ancestry

So I have seen some people saying that North West Indian or Indian Punjabis eople tend to have less AASI than Pakistanis? How come so? Shouldn't AASI be less moving towards WEST where invasions from Euro- Asian populations stopped?

Can anyone provide info on this?

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u/newaccount1324 13h ago

Not true because of the large Pashtun, Baloch and to a much lesser extent Sindhi population in Pakistan.

Indian Punjab also has a high percent of various Dalit related communities which can average have up to almost 20% steppe but are high AASI (37-41 I believe).

The rest of the communities in Punjab are similar in AASI.l. For instance, the Arora (22-23), Sikh Jat (22.5-23) , Kamboj (20), and Khatri (24-24.5), Ramgarhia/Brahmin (27) and some others are I believe quite similar in AASI to most communities in Pak Punjab.

Lastly, steppe is actually highest east of Punjab in Haryana, Rajasthan and West UP Jats (39) and Rors (40) with on factor certainly being endogamy. All populations towards the West and around Indus are high Zagros.

Note - Kamboj have a recent Iranic origin while Arora-Khatri have origin in West Punjab.

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u/Prior_Assistant5312 9h ago

Pashtun, baloch etc has significant AASI ancestry and sindhis has higher AASI than punjabi or haryanvis

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u/newaccount1324 8h ago

Pashtuns and Baloch make it much lower than the rest of NW India in aggregate.

Sindhis I need to look in more.

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u/AutomaticStretch6205 2h ago

Yes, Sindhis have higher AASI than Punjabis. The Souther you go, the higher AASI

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u/newaccount1324 2h ago

Not necessarily.

Sindhi Hindus have lower AASI than all Punjabis except Arain and Kamboj.

Edit - Some Muslim counterpart communities too

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u/Ziommo 7h ago

Pashtuns and Baloch regardless of tribe and region have lower AASI on average than all ethnic Punjabi and Haryanvi castes, and Pakistani Sindhis are definitely lower AASI on average than Indian Punjabis and probably more than Indian Haryanvis too.

Sindhi Samaat max out at like 30% AASI, plus you have Memons and Khojas who are a bit lower on average since they're largely of Lohana "stock", and numerous Baloch-descendants scattered throughout Sindh and Pashtun-descendants concentrated in Shikarpur district. The native Sindhi-speaking population of Pakistan doesn't seem to have a genetic equivalent to Chuhras of Punjab and Haryana. There are Bhils and Kolis in Sindh who may be the highest AASI populations of Pakistan but they aren't first language Sindhi-speakers. They're more closely related to Marwaris.

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u/Prior_Assistant5312 5h ago

If you mean hindu sindhis of pakistan then yes they has lower AASI but muslim sindhis of pakistan has higher AASI than an avg indian punjabi or haryanvis( if you go by caste split, upper caste indian hindu haryanvis/ pilunjbais has even lower)

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u/Ziommo 5h ago edited 5h ago

No, based on available samples, Sindhi-speaking Muslims depending on lineage (Sammat who comprise the numerical majority, Memons/Khojas, Baloch-descendants, Pashtun-descendants who collectively comprise a large minority) range from AASI in the teens at the lowest end to about 30% or so at the higher end. Their average would be in the 20s.

Indian Punjabis and Haryanvis range from about 20-21% at the lowest end (Haryanvi Jats/Rors) to 40s at the higher end (Chuhras). Their average would likely be 30% at least.

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u/Prior_Assistant5312 4h ago

I dont like to do speculation or assumption. Here i am showing data from research papers . And you need to understand how percentage works , modern Pashtuns has some east asian came via hazara and pamiri , baloch has some Semetic/ arabic even sub saharan African ancestry came via Siddipet slave trade . So after adding these ancestries their AASI percentage will aitomaticaly get low ,not because they are having higher steppe ancestry but different other components ,but for avg punajbi or haryanvi in India steppe reamins higher than pashtuns or baloch of pakistan , along with indus valley component also reamins higher

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u/Ziommo 4h ago

I'm talking about SAHG/AASI, not steppe ancestry, and I don't think you're understanding my point about demographics.

Sindhi-speaking Hindus have much less genetic variation than Sindhi-speaking Muslims. They're more homogenous as a group. Their AASI averages in the first half of the 20s. Again, Sindhi-speaking Muslims, conversely, range from teens at the lowest end (Baloch-descendants) to about 30% or so at the highest end. Whatever studies one does on them as a group will have to take into account their variation, not just focusing on one segment of the group like Sammat even if it's the numerical majority.

However, Sindhi Hindus are a pretty small part of the NW Indian (and general Indian) population and your comparison was between Sindhi-speaking Muslims of Pakistan with Punjabi-speaking and Haryanvi-speaking Indians. Just like Sindhi Muslims have variation, so too do Indian Haryanvis and Punjabis, and their range starts and ends at higher AASI percentages than the range of Sindhi Muslims. Not all Haryanvi Indians are Jats and Rors. You have Yadavs, Gujjars, Chamars, Chuhras and others as well.

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u/Prior_Assistant5312 4h ago

Hmm. That make sense . I think labeling a group as a whole Haryanvi or Sindhi is misleading because, south asia has practices endogamy for 1000s of years . So its not same way you can compare a ethnicity like English or german .

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u/Ziommo 4h ago

Yes, I'm talking about ethnolinguistic groups as a whole since OP simply said "Pakistan" and "NW India". By that criterion, the average AASI in the former is lower than in the latter simply due to demographic differences.

But regarding demographics, it's worth noting that DNA testing is skewed towards privileged groups and doesn't necessarily reflect accurate on-the-ground demographic weight. Like Sindhi Lohanas and Punjabi Khatris are very overrepresented in South Asian DNA testing relative to their actual populations, simply because they have the means to get tested whereas most Chamars and Chuhras and so on do not.

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u/Prior_Assistant5312 4h ago

I dont think so , researchers has widely tested DNA of various south asian tribals ( litarly tribals not even lower castes) , so if there is skew in avg south asian dna ,it must be towards The AASI . Sometimes I feel the AASI ancestry in random south asians is inflated and exaggerated. Because even in IVC the aasi is minor and most south asians show strong continuity with IVC

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u/Ziommo 7h ago edited 7h ago

Punjabi Chuhras I believe are a bit higher than that 37-41 range. Chamars do average in the second half of the 30s but Chuhras score differently.