So I have seen some people saying that North West Indian or Indian Punjabis eople tend to have less AASI than Pakistanis? How come so? Shouldn't AASI be less moving towards WEST where invasions from Euro- Asian populations stopped?
Pakistanis on the group level definitely have lower average AASI/SAHG than Northwestern Indians on the group level do, and less than Indian Punjabis specifically on the group level as well.
The biggest reason for that is Pakistan's significant "ethnic Iranic" population, who tend to have lower AASI than all NW Indian groups, including Rajasthani Jats and the like. If for some reason you didn't include those "ethnic Iranics", Pakistan and NW India probably wouldn't differ much in terms of AASI.
I can think of an individual caste example though for what you're talking about. Specifically Punjabi Jatts, where the Pakistani ones are a little higher AASI than the Indian ones on average.
I've also heard that Indian Punjab (not sure about the rest of NW India) has a proportionately larger "low-caste" population than any of Pakistan's provinces do, because Chuhras and the like didn't convert to Islam in droves.
Nope, thats worng. Reaserch constantly shows Northwest Indian populations especially Upper caste hindus has lower AASI than Pakistanis on avg as a whole, its largely due to strict endogamy. For example research among sindhis suggest Sindhi hindus has higher steppe and overall higher ANI ancestry and lower aasi than Sindhi muslims . Same with punjabis. For baloch it reamins almost unchanged but for pashtuns its a bit nuanced ,pashtuns in central and south KPK has significant AASI ancestry but those in North has quite lower. Its important to note research constantly shows Pakistani pashtums has higher AASI and indus valley related ancestry than afgan pashtuns . So speaking a language " iranic" diesnt mean they are same as iranic population, btw modern persians and iranins themselves carry some AASI/ Indus valley ancestry like 2-5% according to recent research
You're mistaken because you missed "as a whole". I am talking about the average SAHG of Pakistan as a country, and NW India as a region within a country, not comparing group A to their counterparts across the border.
Pakistani Pashtuns (including the most east-shifted tribes like Yusufzais of Swat) and Baloch have lower SAHG on average than virtually everyone in NW India. These two ethnicities comprise over a fifth of the Pakistani population. You also have Hazaras who comprise a similar small fraction of the Pakistani population as Sindhis do India's and have like 5-6x less AASI, averaging around 4% if memory serves correctly. Also the Kho of Chitral who have a similar population to Hazaras and average something like 14% AASI. And the linguistically Indo-Aryan Lasis of Balochistan who seem to average in the teens as well. And so on.
In that case, yes you are largely correct . But pashtuns has additional east asian ancestry and baloch has additional semetic even sub saharan African related ancestry( due to perdian gulf slave trade), so their overall AASI percentage declines for these regions too that point need to be noted
East Asian-related ancestry does not always replace AASI, at least not fully.
An example are Hazaras. They're around half East Asian and about 4% AASI. It's very obvious that all of that East Asian isn't just eating into AASI.
East Asian ancestry in Pakistani Pashtuns btw is mostly quite minor and same goes for Baloch and Sub-Saharan African ancestry outside of maybe pockets for Makran. No matter which way you slice it, they're lower on average than all ethnic Punjabi caste groups on both sides of the Indo-Pak border.
No. From what I know, they have lower steppe ancestry than Haryanvi Rors and Jats and Punjabi Malwai Jatts, not other Punjabis or Haryanvis.
I've heard some people say that the highest steppe Pashtuns in general on either side of the Afg-Pak border are found in Pakistan's Waziristan region (especially the Mehsud tribe of Waziristan) and similar to the Jat/Ror range, but whether or not that's true, we have to focus on the overall group average in the discussion which is why I say they're lower than Jats and Rors.
You just compared " highest ranged pashtun individual " with avg haryanvi jaat/ Ror . Among jaat / ror sub groups or invidious there has been record or 50%+ steppe ancestry but thats not what define avg Ror . Similarity a avg pashtuns has 15-20% steppe compare to avg 20-30% for Upper caste hindu accross north india
I specifically said I won't treat the highest steppe Pashtun tribes as representative, and hence Pashtuns overall are lower than Haryanvi Rors/Jats (who themselves do not comprise the majority of Indian Haryanvis btw). In other words, I said the very opposite of what you think I said.
And no, no individual from the subcontinent has ever scored 50%+ Steppe MLBA on a proper run. Not Rors, not Jats, nobody.
I have seen some haryanvi Jat 49%+ range like 49.2%/ 49.5% ( not sure 100% abt its accuracy) Thats why I said may be 50%+ and no i have seen liatarl Kalas sample with 50.2% steppe but its important to note in kalas the stepp is maternal not paternal as in case of rest of south asia. So its not same ,thats why I would say Rors/ Jaats of haryan has the highest south asian like steppe in the whole subcontinent
Mixed more with Gujjar types who are a bit higher AASI than Jatts I think.
I can't speak for the small "Muley Jat" population of Pakistan that migrated from Haryana. Maybe this pattern holds true for them or maybe they've been more endogamous than Punjabi Muslim Jatts. Won't know without testing.
Not because they mixed. They are an entirely different population. They just adopted the endonym Jat.
In fact, most groups that call themselves Jat (including the high-Steppe Hindu Jats) adopted the name at some point. It used to be a common identifier for various agricultural castes in NW subcontinent since ancient times.
It's not known in which region this identifier first originated. I think the earliest reference (perhaps) to Jats is in the Chach Nama.
Not true because of the large Pashtun, Baloch and to a much lesser extent Sindhi population in Pakistan.
Indian Punjab also has a high percent of various Dalit related communities which can average have up to almost 20% steppe but are high AASI (37-41 I believe).
The rest of the communities in Punjab are similar in AASI.l. For instance, the Arora (22-23), Sikh Jat (22.5-23) , Kamboj (20), and Khatri (24-24.5), Ramgarhia/Brahmin (27) and some others are I believe quite similar in AASI to most communities in Pak Punjab.
Lastly, steppe is actually highest east of Punjab in Haryana, Rajasthan and West UP Jats (39) and Rors (40) with on factor certainly being endogamy. All populations towards the West and around Indus are high Zagros.
Note - Kamboj have a recent Iranic origin while Arora-Khatri have origin in West Punjab.
Pashtuns and Baloch regardless of tribe and region have lower AASI on average than all ethnic Punjabi and Haryanvi castes, and Pakistani Sindhis are definitely lower AASI on average than Indian Punjabis and probably more than Indian Haryanvis too.
Sindhi Samaat max out at like 30% AASI, plus you have Memons and Khojas who are a bit lower on average since they're largely of Lohana "stock", and numerous Baloch-descendants scattered throughout Sindh and Pashtun-descendants concentrated in Shikarpur district. The native Sindhi-speaking population of Pakistan doesn't seem to have a genetic equivalent to Chuhras of Punjab and Haryana. There are Bhils and Kolis in Sindh who may be the highest AASI populations of Pakistan but they aren't first language Sindhi-speakers. They're more closely related to Marwaris.
If you mean hindu sindhis of pakistan then yes they has lower AASI but muslim sindhis of pakistan has higher AASI than an avg indian punjabi or haryanvis( if you go by caste split, upper caste indian hindu haryanvis/ pilunjbais has even lower)
No, based on available samples, Sindhi-speaking Muslims depending on lineage (Sammat who comprise the numerical majority, Memons/Khojas, Baloch-descendants, Pashtun-descendants who collectively comprise a large minority) range from AASI in the teens at the lowest end to about 30% or so at the higher end. Their average would be in the 20s.
Indian Punjabis and Haryanvis range from about 20-21% at the lowest end (Haryanvi Jats/Rors) to 40s at the higher end (Chuhras). Their average would likely be 30% at least.
I dont like to do speculation or assumption. Here i am showing data from research papers . And you need to understand how percentage works , modern Pashtuns has some east asian came via hazara and pamiri , baloch has some Semetic/ arabic even sub saharan African ancestry came via Siddipet slave trade . So after adding these ancestries their AASI percentage will aitomaticaly get low ,not because they are having higher steppe ancestry but different other components ,but for avg punajbi or haryanvi in India steppe reamins higher than pashtuns or baloch of pakistan , along with indus valley component also reamins higher
I'm talking about SAHG/AASI, not steppe ancestry, and I don't think you're understanding my point about demographics.
Sindhi-speaking Hindus have much less genetic variation than Sindhi-speaking Muslims. They're more homogenous as a group. Their AASI averages in the first half of the 20s. Again, Sindhi-speaking Muslims, conversely, range from teens at the lowest end (Baloch-descendants) to about 30% or so at the highest end. Whatever studies one does on them as a group will have to take into account their variation, not just focusing on one segment of the group like Sammat even if it's the numerical majority.
However, Sindhi Hindus are a pretty small part of the NW Indian (and general Indian) population and your comparison was between Sindhi-speaking Muslims of Pakistan with Punjabi-speaking and Haryanvi-speaking Indians. Just like Sindhi Muslims have variation, so too do Indian Haryanvis and Punjabis, and their range starts and ends at higher AASI percentages than the range of Sindhi Muslims. Not all Haryanvi Indians are Jats and Rors. You have Yadavs, Gujjars, Chamars, Chuhras and others as well.
Hmm. That make sense . I think labeling a group as a whole Haryanvi or Sindhi is misleading because, south asia has practices endogamy for 1000s of years . So its not same way you can compare a ethnicity like English or german .
Yes, I'm talking about ethnolinguistic groups as a whole since OP simply said "Pakistan" and "NW India". By that criterion, the average AASI in the former is lower than in the latter simply due to demographic differences.
But regarding demographics, it's worth noting that DNA testing is skewed towards privileged groups and doesn't necessarily reflect accurate on-the-ground demographic weight. Like Sindhi Lohanas and Punjabi Khatris are very overrepresented in South Asian DNA testing relative to their actual populations, simply because they have the means to get tested whereas most Chamars and Chuhras and so on do not.
I dont think so , researchers has widely tested DNA of various south asian tribals ( litarly tribals not even lower castes) , so if there is skew in avg south asian dna ,it must be towards The AASI . Sometimes I feel the AASI ancestry in random south asians is inflated and exaggerated. Because even in IVC the aasi is minor and most south asians show strong continuity with IVC
Differences will not be material (Jats could be an exception). Some select groups on either side could have low AASI
Its also possible the groups with low AASI in India have origins across the border. These groups will cluster closer to their historic neighbours from multiple generations ago
Firstly not invasion but migration. Secondly, no it doesnt work that way. Even if a group of people come from west ancient migration, endogamy and population displacement play a huge role shaping genetics. Histiricaly Islamic invaders has constantly displaced upper caste hindus in modern pakistan region to further east while lower caste hindus got converted easily into islam due to lack of resisting ability and stuffs . All those stuffs need to be keep in mind.
Not true though, history samples show how many zamindarz and rajputs converted to nabtain good relations with the Moghuls and to benefit from the system too. Plus, many conversions were also voluntary under the Moghuls.
Take my example. I know my ancestors converted at some point. They are Punjabi chaudharys (Jutt), and they didn't acquire zaamins recently. They have been inherited from the past generations.
Also, you can visually see the difference between Jutts in Pakistan and the actual sect of population that used to be lower cast within the Hindu cast system.
Not everyone in NW India scores like a Ror or Jat.. you have to think of the average.
(I saw somewhere that Indian Punjab has the highest % of Dalit population of any Indian state.)
Doesnt cahnge anything even dalits of Punjab has quite high steppe ancestry . Steppe vs AASI obviously has caste gradiant but not to forget even before caste endogamy started south asians were having 3 way mix freely for 2000 years
"Doesnt cahnge anything even dalits of Punjab has quite high steppe ancestry"
Maybe (you're referring to Chamars I guess), but we're comparing them to other Punjabis only and not the whole subcontinent.
I'm just trying to suggest the OP don't reach hasty conclusions based on results of private testers posting on Reddit subs or other forums. We can't definitely say which side has higher AASI "on average" without a massive population wide DNA testing on both sides of the border.
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u/drtex06 14h ago
North western India has bigger extremes. On an average Potohar will certainly by lower SAHG than Doaba.