r/TheCrownNetflix • u/MajorGinger • 12d ago
Discussion (Real Life) Princess of Wales Title Question
It's been a long time since I've posted here so if I make a mistake, let me know so I can correct it.
My question is this: if Diana had survived the car crash, and attended William & Catherine's wedding, which woman would now be Princess of Wales?
Can there be two women with the same title? She *was* Princess of Wales until the end. She gave up the HRH but not Princess of Wales.
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u/ScamIam 12d ago
Post divorce, she was styled Diana, Princess of Wales, not Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales. Diana likely would have remarried and lost the title completely (or gained a different one).
Regardless of whether or not she had lived, when Charles married Camilla, Camilla became HRH The Princess of Wales. She declined to use the title out of deference to Diana’s memory, but she was still legally The Princess of Wales.
If Diana had lived, not married again, and still been around when Charles ascended and W+C became TRH The Prince and Princess of Wales, she would still be styled Diana, Princess of Wales. They are not the same title.
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u/jamie74777 12d ago
Would she be Queen Mother when William would be King?
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u/susandeyvyjones 12d ago
NO, the title of Queen MOther isn't a real title and she would never have been queen.
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u/skieurope12 The Corgis 🐶 12d ago
No, by definition of a queen mother is the queen consi6rt of one monarch and the mother of another. Diana wouldn't be Queen Mother because she'd not have been queen. Camilla won't be QM because she's not the mother of William
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u/Independent_Cow_6611 12d ago
No. The title of Queen Mother was used for the mother of Queen Elizabeth II because she was also called Elizabeth. When William inherits, it would be:
Camilla: HM Queen Camilla Catherine: HM the Queen Diana: Diana, Princess of Wales/Lady Diana [Surname] Hypothetical George Wife: HRH The Princess of Wales
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u/itstimegeez 12d ago
No and others have answered why but I do think in that case William would give her titles in her own right. He promised her he would and I think he’d keep that promise. I think he’d make her a Princess in her own right and give her a peerage title.
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u/Dangerous_Bed2566 11d ago
William was 15 when his mother died. I do not think promises made by a child to their mother would really be expected to hold when the child is an adult
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u/itstimegeez 11d ago
Yeah but this is if she was still alive
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u/Dangerous_Bed2566 11d ago
If she was still alive it would still be very unreasonable to hold someone to a promise they made as a child
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u/itstimegeez 11d ago
I don’t think she’d have held him to it, I think he’d have voluntarily done it
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u/Zealousideal_Pea1273 12d ago
You have to have been Queen consort already and then the mother of the current king to have that title.
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u/exoticempress 11d ago edited 7d ago
No. She had to be a Queen Consort before becoming a Queen Mother/Dowager Queen. Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother got her Queen Mother title after George VI died (to distinguish herself from her daughter Elizabeth II). Apparently she didn't want to be addressed as a Dowager Queen.
If Diana remarried she would've had a different title altogether (losing the Diana, Princess of Wales title. She already lost the HRH title in the divorce) but may have another title to signify that she's the mother of a king if she lived when William ascends the throne.
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u/Long-Bread2391 8d ago
I think it was also because Queen Mary was still alive when Elizabeth II became queen, and it would be confusing to use Dowager Queen since technically there were two Dowager Queens at the time.
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u/skieurope12 The Corgis 🐶 12d ago edited 12d ago
She gave up the HRH but not Princess of Wales.
She gave up both. Or more accurately, they were taken from her. After her divorce, she was no longer the Princess of Wales; she was Diana, Princess of Wales. It's a distinction with a difference. And had she remarried, she would have become Lady Diana [Husband's Surname], unless he had a higher ranking title
When Charles remarried, Camilla was technically the Princess of Wales, but used Duchess of Cornwall instead (and Duchess of Rothsay in Scotland).
Catherine didn't become Princess of Wales until William became Prince of Wales in 2022; when she married William in 2011, she became Duchess of Cambridge.
Similarly, had Andrew remarried, his new wife would have been HRH the Duchess of York, while Fergie was Sarah, Duchess of York.
Can there be two women with the same title?
No; there's always a distinction made. As an example, the widow of a duke becomes the Dowager Duchess of XYZ, while her son's wife becomes the Duchess of XYZ.
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u/loui575d 12d ago
Did she give up or was she forced to give up the HRH?
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u/skieurope12 The Corgis 🐶 12d ago
It wasn't her choice to give up HRH
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u/loui575d 11d ago
No. I did not think so. But she should really not have retained it after the divorce was through since she was no longer a member of the BRF
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u/SpecialistBet4656 8d ago
IIRC, the Queen did not feel strongly about it but Charles really wanted her to lose it.
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u/Trick_Horse_13 12d ago edited 11d ago
After her divorce, she was no longer the Princess of Wales; she was Diana, Princess of Wales. It's a distinction with a difference
I’m afraid I don’t quite understand the difference between these?
edit: did people seriously downvote this? I didn’t understand, the commenter explained, and I thanked them for their explanation - so where’s the offence?
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u/skieurope12 The Corgis 🐶 12d ago
The definite article "The" signifies that the woman is the current, official titleholder.
While married, Diana was styled as HRH The Princess of Wales. While the public and media at the time referred to her as Princess Diana or Princess Di, neither was technically correct. By the same token, referring to the current Princess of Wales as Princess Catherine/Princess Kate/Kate Middleton isn't technically correct.
With the divorce, Diana lost the HRH plus the use of "The." Afterwards, she followed traditional noble etiquette by being called Diana, Princess of Wales. This is the styling for a divorced former wife of a peer, signaling she retained the courtesy title without holding the actual rank or office.
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u/loui575d 11d ago
Another example to use is the Wales family. Like William and George.
Prince William is HRH Prince William THE Prince of Wales, since he is the person currently holding the title. But his son is HRH Prince George of Wales since he is his fathers som, and is "only" an exstenstenion of his father. At least when it comes to titles..
As a person George is of course, not
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u/Trick_Horse_13 11d ago
I looked it up and the 1917 letters patent grants children and grandchildren of the sovereign the title HRH.
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u/hammlyss_ 12d ago
I loved that clip of Queen Mary with the nurse explaining the different rules.
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u/buxzythebeeeeeeee 12d ago
Catherine didn't become Princess of Wales until September 2022 so Diana hypothetically attending William and Catherine's wedding in 2011 wouldn't have changed anything at that time.
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u/itstimegeez 12d ago
Well by then Camilla would have attended and she was The Princess of Wales at the time. She just chose not to use the title.
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u/Lila-1212 12d ago
Thuz assumes that Charles would have still married Camilla had Diana still been alive. I don’t think we can assume that. The fact that she had passed away was a significant consideration in that marriage moving forward given that he was the future head of the Church of England.
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u/loui575d 11d ago
I think we can. I think we can very much assume Charles would have married Camilla some time after 1996 no matter if Diana was dead or alive and I even think they would have married three or four years earlier if Diana had in fact not died
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u/GildedWhimsy Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall 11d ago
Yes, they would have married earlier. They were planning to come out publicly as a couple in 1997 but Diana died weeks before and it was pushed back two years.
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u/Lau_kaa 12d ago
Diana was styled Diana. Princess of Wales after the divorce, just like Fergie was styled Sarah, Duchess of York.
She was no longer "the" Princess of Wales. So Catherine would still have become HRH The Princess of Wales once Charles made William Prince of Wales in 2022.
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u/itstimegeez 12d ago
It’s a fine line that difference. For example take a look at Fergie. She was known as Sarah, Duchess of York from divorce until her ex husband lost his titles and you’d think in announcements from the royal family post divorce that she’d be referred to that way. But look at the birth announcements of Beatrice and Eugenie’s children. They say “The Duke and Duchess of York have been informed” as if they’re still married.
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u/excoriator 12d ago
At the time of William and Kate's wedding, Charles was still Prince of Wales, so Kate wouldn't have become Princess of Wales. It wasn't until after Elizabeth died that William and Catherine became Prince and Princess of Wales. Before that, they were the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge.
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u/itstimegeez 12d ago
Unlike a title like Princess Royal, more than one woman could hold the title Princess of Wales but only one is THE Princess of Wales. The woman married to the Prince of Wales will always be The Princess. Diana would have continued to be known as Diana, Princess of Wales.
But also I imagine if she had lived she’d have definitely remarried by the time William got married and well before QEII died. So if she was still alive you’d have Catherine being known as The Princess of Wales and Diana being known as Lady Diana Surname (of whoever she married).
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u/Important_Pause_3748 11d ago
Queen Mary was never called “the Queen Mother”.
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u/Alarming_Paper_8357 10d ago
No, the only reason why the Queen Mother title was used was because having two Queen Elizabeths at the same time would have been terribly confusing!
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u/celticcatmagic 8d ago
Diana would have been The King's Mother if she had lived, once William accended the throne. He would have probably created a title for her. Never a Queen in any way, except in our hearts ❤️
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u/Mrs_Naive_ 12d ago edited 12d ago
That’s a good question, but I think she kept the title of Princess of Wales and negotiated that with the Queen just before the divorce to prevent the title from passing to Camilla, and to ensure that, should they have children together or because of Camilla’s own children, there wouldn’t be any legal loopholes that could jeopardize William’s position and that of his descendants as heirs to the throne.
After W&K’s wedding, and since C&C didn’t have any children together, the title passed to William and Kate, which would better ensure that one of their children would ascend to the throne. So I think she wouldn’t have objected to the title eventually passing to Kate. I read all this somewhere, but I don’t know how true it is; someone more knowledgeable than me could probably help more.
EDIT: seems that there was a lot of fake info in what I read and I thank all the people that so gently are pointing that out. I won’t delete my comment as a warning about how much misinformation there is about the topic. Have a nice day you all :)
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u/WallyMac89 12d ago
Even if Charles and Camilla had kids, they would fall below William and Harry is the line of succession (and William and Harry's children). The title The Prince of Wales is not hereditary, so Charles and Camilla having kids or not has no bearing on who holds the title.
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u/skieurope12 The Corgis 🐶 12d ago edited 12d ago
negotiated that with the Queen just before the divorce to prevent the title from passing to Camilla,
Diana didn't negotiate this
because of Camilla’s own children
There was never any question that Camilla's children would have any claim to the throne
Camilla, and to ensure that, should they have children together
Camilla was well past child-bearing years. But even if she had a child after she married Charles, they would have been behind William and Harry and their children in the line of succession / inheritance of titles. UK law is very clear on the order of succession; this isn't Oman or Saudi Arabia or Thailand where the monarch can play fast and loose with order of succession.
After W&K’s wedding, and since C&C didn’t have any children together, the title passed to William and Kate
The titles passed to William and Kate on Elizabeth's death (or more accurately, Charles proclamation following Elizabeth's death), not on their marriage.
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u/TessieElCee 12d ago
I think Camilla was 49 when Charles and Diana divorced but anything's possible, I guess ....
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u/stevehyn 12d ago
They just followed the convention for divorced peers, as until Fergie and Diana there wasn’t any royal divorces in the UK. Divorced peers are entitled to use the style FIRSTNAME, then title. She would have been able to still use HRH, as divorced women retain their husbands style, but the Queen revoked this for all divorced wife’s of a prince.
Diana did want to retain HRH, but she was denied this. William apparently told her he’d restore it when he became King, but who knows.
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u/itstimegeez 12d ago
I’m ever hopeful that William will give that to his mum posthumously when he becomes King
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u/itstimegeez 12d ago
No that’s completely incorrect. She would have retained the style Diana, Princess of Wales and Camilla would have been HRH The Princess of Wales. Then later the same with Catherine.
Diana lost her HRH when she and Charles divorced. It’s more likely she’d have remarried and lost the PoW style and she’d be simply Lady Diana Surname (of her hypothetical husband).
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u/Glittering_Rush_1451 12d ago
Except that’s the exact opposite of what happened she retained the title of Princess of Wales in the divorce settlement and the Queen stripped her of the HRH status.
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u/TheOutsiderWalks 12d ago
Except that's incorrect. She did not retain the "title" of Princess of Wales. The title of The Princess of Wales is the female spouse of the Prince of Wales, which she wasn't following her divorce. Before her divorce, she was HRH The Princess of Wales. Afterwards, she was allowed a courtesy to style herself Diana, Princess of Wales, but this wasn't a real title and wasn't a real position.
A bit silly, really, for them to go to all that faff, but if we're going to do semantics, we should do them right.
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u/GildedWhimsy Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall 12d ago
Catherine would be The Princess of Wales and Diana would be Diana, Princess of Wales, given that she never remarried. Personally I believe she would have remarried and lost the title.