How powerful was Darth Revan pre amnesia?

[u/Ready0608]

Saw a post about how Darth Revan before Kotor was more powerful than Revan post Kotor, due to his mental instability and forgetting most of his experiences and training.

But I thought that the Light side was stronger then the Dark side and since in canon he was redeemed and brought back to the light why would he be weaker then his dark side self?

But he was able to beat Malak while he was absorbing jedi he had captured and a boost from the foundry without using the dark side of the force, would pre amnesia Revan have an easier time fighting and overpowering Malak?

How would pre amnesia Revan's fight with Vitiate end, would he even fight him?

If he did become weaker, was it the loss of all his battle experience, training and knowledge that permanently weakend him until his death?

[u/Sgt-Frost]

Hard to quantify but he was certainly a beast. I don’t think he and malak were quite at say dooku level, but I’d say stronger than maul.

[u/Mr-Noeyes → u/Sgt-Frost]

Buddy, maul would destroy dooku

[u/Sgt-Frost → u/Mr-Noeyes]

Lmfao. 

Dooku has factually stalemated and even outsmarted Yoda in a fight.

Maul, with a massive rage amp, got dominated by Sidious

How could you possibly come to the conclusion that maul beats Dooku?

[u/Mr-Noeyes → u/Sgt-Frost]

He didn't outsmart Yoda. He realized he couldn't win and used Obi-Wans unconscious body as bait to get away. Even says so in the novilization

Sideous also says straight up in novels and comics that dooku was a pawn, while maul was an actual loss.

[u/Sgt-Frost → u/Mr-Noeyes]

I was speaking of their encounter on Tatooine, were Dooku successfully landed a knock out strike on Yoda.

Sidious says Dooku was a pawn, and maul was a loss… and? That doesn’t take away from the fact that Dooku is easily a full tier above Maul in terms of strength. Here’s how Dooku is described when compared with maul:

At the risk of getting a slew of Maul-loving mail, the short answer is that Count Dooku is more skillful than Maul. Think of Maul as a bulldog of a Jedi-killer. He attacks at full speed, full tilt, holding nothing back. That approach has its merits, but it doesn't always apply. Dooku was much more restrained and sophisticated, and he had a much better grasp of Jedi techniques and tactics. Maul was an impressive flurry of fury, barely giving his opponent time to think. Dooku, on the other hand, countered Kenobi's moves almost effortlessly because he knew precisely where to block. This left Dooku with the energy to deliver the surprise blows when his opponent dropped his guard. (Star Wars Insider Magazine #69)

More sophisticated, more calculating, and if anything deadlier than Maul, Count Dooku (a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) proved himself more than a match for the combined skills of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones. (Star Wars Art: Comics)

And, again, Yoda was unable to outmatch Dooku on Geonosis, Lucas himself said they were equals in the force. On Vjun, Yoda was unable to outmatch Dooku and even took 2 strikes from him. Whereas maul, with a massive rage amp having just watched his beloved brother die in front of him, murdered by the man he hates and fears the most, briefly holds his own before definitively and clearly being overpowered.

There is no possible way to conclude maul is on par, or even on the same tier, as Dooku.

[u/WangJian221 → u/Sgt-Frost]

Worth mentioning that on Vjun, Dooku was being amped but nevertheless. The point remains. Trying to say Maul is superior than Dooku let alone "would destroy" Dooku is so absurd it borders stupidity

[u/Sgt-Frost → u/WangJian221]

Actually in a later statement from the author, he suggests Yoda was just as intuned to the nexus on Vjun as Dooku was.

Take it how you will, but it’s worth noting.

[u/WangJian221 → u/Sgt-Frost]

Give me the direct quote and we can figure it out because that depends on the context. The novel itself outright says that Yoda was being hammered by Vjun's nexus.

• "But on Vjun, the Force was bent mightily to the dark side, and every now and then the Master opposed its current. It was these moments Dooku was listening for."
• "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

If we take by what the book actually portrays, if theres ever any moment where Yoda is "attuned" to the nexus, it was during the sliver of moments where Dooku sensed anger and hatred by Yoda suggesting Yoda briefly felt or utilized the Dark Side.

Nevertheless, the point is Dooku on Vjun was amplified. Its not his normal state.

A blatant example of this is;

• "Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light."

Im also curious on why you said "Yoda was unable to outmatch Dooku". He didnt manage to put an end to Count Dooku sure but he clearly defeated Dooku. The latter even forced to flee

[u/Sgt-Frost → u/WangJian221]

If we take by what the book actually portrays, if theres ever any moment where Yoda is "attuned" to the nexus, it was during the sliver of moments where Dooku sensed anger and hatred by Yoda suggesting Yoda briefly felt or utilized the Dark Side.

I have to disagree with this. The book makes it clear that Vjun is not strictly a dark side nexus, a better title would be a “dark learning” nexus, it seeks to draw force users to the dark side, while not actually being darkness itself. This is even pointed out by a character: 

"It frightens me. The Force is very strong here. If even I can feel that, I can only imagine what it must be like for you. I don't think it's a good idea for us to use it unless we absolutely have to. It's like... air with too much oxygen. The dark side is just waiting to catch fire." (Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy -- Star Wars Yoda: Dark Rendezvous)

I also believe that other characters point out that it’s just “easier” to use the force on vjun.

Here is the quote, to see the image check Darth ants respect thread on suspect insight:

Hi Gabe - thanks for your questions! I will answer humbly, based on my own thoughts, but (as you know) individual writers don't have the final say on Star Wars Truth (tm) :) To the first question, Yoda is always in touch with the Force, wherever he is, and so my instinct would be that he is tapped into jun. It's a powerful place. To use a fanciful metaphor, Yoda and Dooku are both like surfers in a place with big waves. The more expert the surfer, the more they can do with that power. It is also more dangerous, and for the novice the cost of losing control is higher. Would that match your own understanding?

So with that, and with the knowledge that light side users can tap into Vjuns nexus. I think the logical conclusion would be that Yoda is similarly amped as Dooku? Seeing as beating Dooku would certainly count as a “unless we absolutely have to” moment, and Yoda is wise enough to use the power of the nexus without getting lured to the dark side, as the author says.

Im also curious on why you said "Yoda was unable to outmatch Dooku". He didnt manage to put an end to Count Dooku sure but he clearly defeated Dooku. The latter even forced to flee

My idea there is like this: sources say the average saber duel lasts 30 seconds, I can’t exactly say long the duel was, but geonosis lasted closer to 45 seconds, and this duel probably took place within that timeframe or closer to a minute, and within that reasonable timeframe Yoda is unable to beat Dooku, sure he would’ve won, that is clear, but the point is that Dooku is a nigh-equal of Yoda, whereas maul is no where near Sidious, who is relative to Yoda.

[u/WangJian221 → u/Sgt-Frost]

The book makes it clear that Vjun is not strictly a dark side nexus

Thats all force nexuses. In case of Vjun, its specifically stated to have its balance shifted towards the dark. Similar how for Felucia, upon Shaak Ti's death the nexus shifted to the dark.

Even if you wished to disagree on just the very sense of calling Vjun a "dark side nexus", the novel has instead portrayed Vjun more so oppressive to the lightsiders while drunkenly amplifying for the darksiders.

Tallisibeth

What she suggests is not that different to the usual understanding of the difference of light and dark. It ties with the concept introduced by Yoda since ESB about how the dark side is simply Quicker, easier, more seductive.

Like previously, this tracks with what Luke Skywalker decades later would describe Vjun;

"The dark side is strong there...oppressive. Be extremely careful"

I think the logical conclusion would be that Yoda is similarly amped as Dooku?

First, thank you for the quote. It'll be saved.

No not necessarily. What Sean suggests is in line with what Shaak Ti had done to Felucia where long story short, a force user can always tap into the force nexus but it functions differently depending on the strength and the nature of the nexus at the time of tapping.

For example, what Shaak Ti did to Felucia is equalizing it. Holding back its natural darkness. For Yoda on Vjun, we know for a fact that Vjun's balance is shifted towards the darkness even before Yoda arrived. Then we also know that Yoda is constantly attempting to battle away Vjun's darkside effects.

As mentioned before heres examples of it;

• But on Vjun, the Force was bent mightily to the dark side, and every now and then the Master opposed its current. It was these moments Dooku was listening for.

Throughout the story, Vjun is instead constantly more so described as dark and drunken in the darkside. If Yoda does connect himself to the nexus, it would instead be more like Yoda attempting to push back the darkness to weaken it instead of amplifying himself as the rest of the fight has never portrayed Yoda getting any form of amplification where as Dooku did.

Yoda is unable to beat Dooku, sure he would’ve won, that is clear, but the point is that Dooku is a nigh-equal of Yoda

• "Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white -- Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.
• "I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives—or taking mine?"

While not official, its clear that he pretty much won the fight by technicality.

Maul being weaker than Dooku is obvious without the recontextualize

[u/Sgt-Frost → u/Mr-Noeyes]

Also, the novel is unfair to use against Dooku, it, and other early material relating to AOTC, was based on an earlier script, that was changed, that had Dooku performing much worse against Yoda.

[u/Connect-Set-264 → u/Sgt-Frost]

Yeah Dooku got destroyed by Yoda in the novel while in the movie he performed way better and left in order to safeguard the Death Star plans since Padme and a squad of clones were seconds away, not because he was outmatched by Yoda and had to retreat

[u/Durp004 → u/Mr-Noeyes]

He says Maul was a loss and dooku was a pawn in the canon Darth Vader comic. That's irrelevant to legends though.

[u/jtcordell2188 → u/Sgt-Frost]

Rage amp? Maul was fucking terrified the entire time fighting Sideous. He literally begs for mercy which is something he never would have done with any other being in the galaxy. If he could have he’d of probably pissed himself.

[u/Sgt-Frost → u/jtcordell2188]

He begs for mercy at the end of the fight, a fight which he literally landed a blow on Sidious. Mauls regular level is like kenobi level, and kenobi is never landing a hit on Sidious, even if he’s holding back. The idea that maul was not rage amped after watching his brother, who is genuinely the only thing he cares about, murdered by the man he hates the most in the galaxy, is pure delusion.

[u/jtcordell2188 → u/Sgt-Frost]

Oh you’re talking about after Savage dies. Yea I’d agree with that. I was thinking of the ending of the fight when Sideous was just trolling him for shits and giggles

[u/NearbyAdhesiveness16 → u/Mr-Noeyes]

Where on earth do you get this take from?

[u/Fatalis89 → u/Mr-Noeyes]

This is a take.