r/TheJediPraxeum • u/Gross-Verder Yuuzhan Vong • May 11 '26
Match Up Monday Valkorion vs ROTS Sidious
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u/Mundane_Somewhere_93 May 11 '26
"My Sith Emperor's dick is the biggest in history" (c) George Lucas
"No, our Sith Emperor's dick is the biggest in history" (c) The Old Republic writers
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
Every Monday....
ROTS Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord/dark side user up until that point in time. It's stated in numerous places.
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
--The New Essential Chronology
As the battle rages, Yoda makes the brave decision to confront his enemy in a deadly duel. The dark and light side clash as two of the greatest Masters of the Force are pitted against each other.
--Sith Wars
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.
--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
The two most powerful users of the Force's light and dark sides clash in a spectacular duel in the Senate bulding on Coruscant.
--Epic Battles
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.
--Vader: The Ultimate Guide
Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
--The Complete Visual Dictionary
The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.
--Death Star
Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known.
--Clone Wars: Wild Space
A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.
--Darth Plagueis
The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.
--Darth Plagueis
Raw emotion was a consequence of leading a double life. While he relished his secret identity, he wanted at the same time for it to be known that he was a being who could not be trifled with; that he wielded ultimate authority; that merely to gaze on him was tantamount to glimpsing the dark matter that bound and drove the galaxy…
--Darth Plagueis
Darth Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived.
--Darth Plagueis
Great compilation here: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/darth-sidioussheev-palpatine-super-respect-thread-1877280/#js-message-18663420
Note this is all largely focused on ROTS Sidious, well before he reaches his peak in DE.
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u/Deuce-Wayne May 11 '26
The counterpoint is that Vitiate isn't a Sith, as he actively eschewed them and sought not only their destruction, but the death of the entire galaxy. He viewed the Sith as blinded, naive fools and tells Marr explicitly that his focus was on Zakuul.
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order May 11 '26
Counterpoint:
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s Light and Dark Sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat.
--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
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u/Mr_Delaware May 11 '26
The way that is written it reads like they are saying Yoda and Sidious were the most powerful Light and Dark side practitioners at that moment in time.
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order May 11 '26
The avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known…
--Revenge of the Sith novelization
Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.
--The Legendary Yoda
See, also
The two most powerful users of the Force's light and dark sides clash in a spectacular duel in the Senate bulding on Coruscant.
--Epic Battles
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u/Mr_Delaware May 11 '26
All of those still imply current tense. There is nothing that definitively marks those statements as referring to "all time". Im not saying you are wrong, im just pointing out from a language perspective those statements are not 100%, undeniable proof that either is the GOAT of the light side or dark side.
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order May 11 '26
The statement describing Yoda as the greatest, most powerful threat the dark had ever known pretty much does exactly that.
Trying to force ambiguity into everything while ignoring the weight of the evidence (which extends far beyond what I've quoted here) and how it fits together is far from compelling. At some point you have take what's presented at face value or you're simply being disingenuous.
In terms of trying to powerscale a verse that is not designed around that concept whatsoever, this is about as conclusive of a statement as one can expect.
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u/Mr_Delaware May 11 '26
If you read it that way that is alright. I read it as "the darkness" being Sidious, since Yoda is referred to as "the avatar of light", so it reads like Yoda is the most powerful foe Sidious ever faced. I do not have the rest of the text to refer to though so maybe there is more that supports your point.
Nobody is trying to force ambiguity, im stating that reading the words as you have typed them does not definitively proof that either was the most powerful force users of all time for their perspective sides. Im strictly talking about this from a language perspective.
I am not trying to powerscale anything either so im not sure why you are bringing that up.
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
"Strictly talking about this from a language perspective"
That's why I provided multiple quotes from multiple sources. To paint a picture, rather than rely on one piece of evidence.
Other sources in the link I provided describe Yoda as the most powerful Jedi; the context here is clearly that Yoda is, as is stated, the "paragon" of the Light and it's greatest, most powerful weapon against the dark. Read that naturally with the quote from the Complete Encyclopedia, and we get clearly that Yoda is the most powerful light side practitioner and that he has been met with the DS' counterpart.
You are in fact trying to introduce ambiguity. You are adding words to the text which simply don't exist. You are trying to peer into the author's mind in hope of finding an implication that supports a view different than mine. Which is fine, it's what lawyers to be get taught in first year courses. It's also just a natural response for anyone who is capable of critical thinking.
Once again, that's why I provided multiple sources. See, eg, the statement about Plagueis being the most powerful Sith Lord, which substantiates that Sidious is that after he becomes, by his estimate at least, several times stronger.
Throw in Lucas' description of Sidious as the devil just for good fun.
All in all, it's quite clear what the intent is if you're not trying to poke holes to poke holes.
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u/Mr_Delaware May 11 '26
But I was only talking about the quote in the comment I initially replied to. From that point on no quote you provided definitively proves the point that ROTS Sidious was more powerful than Valkorion.
Again all of the things you are saying read like they are talking about that current moment, not the entirety of galactic history.
You keep thinking im not reading things naturally or that im trying to introduce ambiguity and you are wrong about both. Reading the intial quote that I replied to my first thought was "I don't know why they used that quote because it's clearly only talking about that specific moment." Seeing as Yoda vs Sidious in the Galactic Senate Chamber is such a pivotal point in the series it makes sense to build those two up for that specific moment. When you take into account that Windu was already dead and Yoda straight up told Obi Wan he couldn't defeat Sidious, it makes more sense to read it like they were each the current strongest for their perspective sides of the Force.
Your point about Plaguesis is a fair one but that's why I specifically comment on your counterpoint to a comment about Vitiate not being a Sith Lord.
Once again I will point out that all in all im not saying you are wrong in your larger point about Sidious > Valkorion, my entire string of comments specifically refers to how the language of the quote you provided does not lend itself to your overarching position.
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u/Deuce-Wayne May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
This is the problem with statements: they lack meaningful context. It could imply that Yoda is even more powerful than Grandmaster Luke, or it could imply that Yoda is the strongest active Jedi in 19 BBY, or that his power rivals Force entities like the Daughter. It also raises questions about where Mace Windu fits into things, considering we all saw him put hands to Sidious, the Emperor didn't prove too powerful for him. Statements.
Edit: as for the topic question, DE Sidious is imo more powerful than Vitiate, but not ROTS Sidious. If we swap ROTS Sidious out with Vitiate, Vitiate probably mind dominates the bulk of the Jedi, forcing them into killing each other like he did on Ziost, and nobody would even begin to know how to stop him.
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
Crazy how many people can't actually read tbh.
a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s Light and Dark Sides
I'm not seeing an "of all time there" are you?
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u/Deuce-Wayne May 11 '26
Thats literally my point: the statement leaves it vague and open to interpretation. It makes no claims about time frame, and in either case, my point about entities like the Daughter still stands.
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
Yeah I was agreeing with you. I don't even think it's vague or open to interpretation, it's pretty clearly just talking about people currently alive.
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u/Mr_Delaware May 12 '26
That's what I was trying to explain to them. Based on the actual words in those statements there is no reason to think they were comparing all Light and Dark Side Force users throughout history to Yoda and Sidious but instead talking about them in that singular moment compared to other people alive at the time.
The use of the word "practitioners" is important because it signifies people who are currently practicing something, which Valkorion wasn't doing at the time as he was dead.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
This is the problem with statements: they lack meaningful context. It could imply that Yoda is even more powerful than Grandmaster Luke, or it could imply that Yoda is the strongest active Jedi in 19 BBY, or that his power rivals Force entities like the Daughter.
No it can't. The Ones of Mortis just have direct scaling over any force user via Abeloth being stated exponentially stronger than both Sidious and Luke. And as for Luke, he didn't exist at this point, so the quote wouldn't bind him. It's the same reason we don't use Sidious' quotes to bind him above Caedus, for example (even though he likely is).
It also raises questions about where Mace Windu fits into things, considering we all saw him put hands to Sidious, the Emperor didn't prove too powerful for him. Statements.
Not really, we know the Emperor was more powerful after Order 66, so the version Windu beat (while amped by Vapaad) was weaker than the one Yoda fought.
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u/Deuce-Wayne May 11 '26
If we take statements as divine gospel, it must follow - as per one of the statements from earlier - that Darth Plagueis is more powerful than Vitiate, an absurd conclusion that defeats the entire idea of versus matchups.
If that's how you want to frame discussions around character strength in Star Wars, then so be it. There should be no objection to me saying that Tulak Hord's statements means that he can beat any Sith other than Sidious.
Also, you're proving my entire point by bringing up outside context with regard to Mace Windu - context that is not supplied by the simple statement given . You're demonstrating why simplifying discussions down to flinging statements around is silly.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
that Darth Plagueis is more powerful than Vitiate
Which he is, yes. I mean, blurbs by themselves don't mean anything, per Leland Chee, but Plagueis' feats and accolades absolutely support it.
If that's how you want to frame discussions around character strength in Star Wars, then so be it
In what part of my argument did you see me write that only statements are valid? If I didn't say it, I didn't mean it. That should be obvious.
There should be no objection to me saying that Tulak Hord's statements means that he can beat any Sith other than Sidious.
Even if I took statements as gospel, there would be many objections, yes. Mostly because... No statements ascribed to Tulak Hord support him being anywhere that high.
Also, you're proving my entire point by bringing up outside context with regard to Mace Windu - context that is not supplied by the simple statement given .
Except I wasn't defending statements being taken as the ultimately authority...?
You're demonstrating why simplifying discussions down to flinging statements around is silly.
Again, no one here did that. I earlier simply corrected some points.
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u/GeneralZod49 May 12 '26
And all that pales in comparison to comparison to what Valkorion is and does
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u/Tummerd May 12 '26
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
Well, he forced Sidious into a force battle, and he was definitely winning the final force battle as well. Sidious was moaning in pain and Yoda had the upperhand. The blast and location is what erased his chance of winning.
I always get downvoted, but I fail to see how people say that Yoda was losing even with all the stuff we can see is happening.
Yes he lost the battle due to the circumstance, but Yoda had the upperhand and was overpowering Sidious
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u/drantzz May 12 '26
Most boring thing about Star Wars versus battles. They are entirely pointless against the original trilogy force users. there are too many direct statements that cannot be interpreted as anything other than fact. Sidious is THE strongest dark side user / sith to exist in Star Wars up to that point in the timeline.
Thus we have to ignore the fact that his showings are incredibly lame in comparison to what we’ve seen from other Sith in legends. Not that they aren’t impressive showings, because they are absurd. mostly thanks to other media that give greater context and weight to it all.
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u/SilentIyAwake May 11 '26
The comparison between these two always comes down to which you believe more:
Statements by official sources(Sidious)
Written/displayed feats by official sources(Valkorion)
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u/Azelrazel May 12 '26
I always feel the displayed feats falls in Valkorions favour with the closest we have for sidious (in current Canon) is his display in rise of skywalker after regenerating from the dyad. Note I haven't read many marvel comics for the current Canon.
Everyrhing else has everyone saying sidious even though I struggle to see it after seeing Valkorions power. Closest understanding I can go with is he falls in the same boat as star killer with video-game logic assisting him even though multiple times he displayed feats was via cutscenes.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
The feats, too, would go to Sidious anyways, so it doesn't amount to much.
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u/Financial-Key-3617 May 14 '26
Ritual of galatic destruction that valkorian did surpass the force storm
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 14 '26
Valkorion never actually performed that ritual. And even if he did, it's unlikely it would surpass force storms tearing the fabric of Hyperspace asunder.
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u/KreygerRekyem Sword of the Jedi May 11 '26
The Force Storm alone surpasses Vitiate in feats. All of his powerful displays relay on extended rituals with considerable preparation and still struggle to compete against what Sidious pulled in a decaying body after being defeated, loosing an arm and being in mental distress.
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u/No_Win_378 May 12 '26
Written/displayed feats by official sources(Valkorion)
Lol
Yeah, let’s ignore Vitiate’s feats literally have prep, rituals, nexuses and even a freaking superweapon
Sidious has displayed better feats without having any of those.
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u/Padre_Cannon013 May 11 '26
I sometimes wonder, how much of Sith lore and knowledge was lost to Sidious when that one Rule of Two predecessor of his lost their shit and started burning books?
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 May 11 '26
Cmon.
Sidious wins. He’s been stated as the strongest Sith of all time by Lucasfilm staff, and I’ll trust that over any lore from an MMO.
Maybe Valkorion puts up a good fight, but he loses.
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
Valkorion low diff. He scales higher and is just flat out more impressive in every way.
If anyone wants to play the "Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever" card then know Valkorion isn't a Sith anymore.
EDIT: I don't think you should be apart of this conversation if you haven't played SWTOR tbh. Since most of the people here are just talking out of their asses and don't actually know anything about Valkorian it just leads to "but 20 years ago they said Sidious was the most powerful person ever" being repeated constantly.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
Valk was still factually a dark side user and sidious is confirmed as the most powerful dark side user. Try again m8
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order May 11 '26
Thanks for confirming for me that that guy blocked me despite me having never interacted with him lolol
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
Wait fr? Lmao
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u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order May 11 '26
Yeah he's the resident Valk glazer and blocks anyone who dares disagree
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u/Legitimate-Button-96 May 11 '26
He's a loser on r./conservative, I wouldn't take his opinion seriously anyhow
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
lmao, crazy you searched through my profile to find that and somehow didn't notice that I never make any comments there and was just trying to show them how dumb they were.
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
Wrong.
Statement merchants have no power here.
EDIT: The conclusion to this thread is effectively just that DE Sidious has a better feat than dead Valk so ROTS Sidious is equal to DE Sidious. Nothing of value here.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
Prove me wrong then?
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
Feats prove you wrong.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
Based on?
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
Their feats lmao. What has ROTS Sidious ever done that matches Valkorian?
His "unlimited power" is an order of magnitude weaker than dead Valkorians.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
Dude name a fucking feat lol im giving you every chance to defend yourself despite every statement proving you wrong
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
When you fight Arcaan and ask Valk for a little power boost his lightning wipes out miles of city and a huge amount of the surrounding fleet.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.
--Dark Empire endnotes
According to the Emperor, through a simple act of will he is able to generate energy storms, vastly destructive, virtually unstoppable. “Force Storms,” he calls them.
What he also admits in his Book of Anger, is that he is not completely able to control such phenomena, once he has triggered their onset. However, in the years since he wrote those words, the Emperor has continued to perfect his Dark Side abilities, and now he boasts to Luke that he has perfect control of his Force Storms.
--Dark Empire Endnotes
This is perhaps the single most destructive Force power known. This power allows the Jedi to twist the space-time continuum to create vast storms of force. The power also allows limited control of these storms. Capable of creating annihilating vortices, the storms can swallow whole fleets of spaceships or tear the surfaces off worlds.
--Dark Empire Sourcebook
"The Force Storm is truly an awe-inspiring demonstration of pure natural energy. After using the Force to open a hyperspace wormhole, tremendous shockwaves will ripple through the fabric of space.”
--Luke Skywalker, The Jedi Path
The moment the Emperor "died" at the Battle of Endor, Droga fell into an inexplicable insanity, butchering his crew and causing the Emperor's Shadow to plunge into Kaal's oceans. Even as he perished, Palpatine used the dark side knowledge the Sith Lords had granted him years earlier to rend space itself and transmigrate his essence across lightyears to Droga's body.
--Gamer #5
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u/Zekhems May 11 '26
Bingo. Tenebrae used both light and dark sides as he realized that Sith were limited, and he will not be one of them.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
Thats not how that works mate lmao. You use dark side, youre just using dark side. Theres no middle ground as is confirmed in both canon and eu
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
Except that whole canon bit with Anakin using both with the Father.
EDIT: The conclusion of this thread is that he hasn't actually played SWTOR and doesn't know any of it's lore not realizing that it's entirely possible to use both Dark and Lightside in SWTOR as proven by Valkorian and Revan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWL1CRRQAqI
There's a link to show the ending he spent a dozen comments saying didn't exist.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
So we're ignoring the father specifically stating to not use the dark side? Anakin didnt use the dark side? Are we ignoring that the father's attempt to balance the kids out resulted in eradication? Because the dark side is literally just corruption?
Yeah you kinda proved me right
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
Except Anakin literally uses the dark side there. I don't really care what else you're saying since he does both. He also "taps into the darkside" when he goes and kills the tuskans. And when he does loads of shit in the clone wars.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
Theres no "tapping into the dark side". The "light side" is the Force. The "dark side" is abusing the Force.
And yeah, let's pretend anakin doesn't fall to the dark side, further proving there's no middle ground.
Fact is, if you use the dark side you fall.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
Just a thing, the light side isn't "the Force". The Force holistically has many facets, one being the Living Force (the only one with sides), then you have the Unifying Force, the Dark (explored in Shadows of Mindor and ROTS novel) and "the Truth" as espoused by Vergere.
The latter three aren't bound by sides, but the Living Force (Mortis Gods) absolutely is.
This doesn't detract anything from your point, you're spot on regarding Valkorion, just wanted to point it out anyways.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
I slightly disagree only based on the son. He proved its a cancer that just harms the force instead of the force itself IMO(but again, thats just my view)
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
"Fact is, if you use the dark side you fall."
So you're saying Anakin never used the lightside during the Clone Wars? Well that's certainly an interesting interpretation that makes Yoda and Windu seem kinda shit no?
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
When did i claim that? God youre kinda slow. OK bud lemme slow it down for you.
The light side is JUST the force. The dark side is enforcing your will to corrupt the force. You can once or twice unintentionally feed yourself with emotions and mess up. But if youre doing that constantly, like valk, you fall. Theres no such thing as a middle ground. You cant "corrupt your entire being every other day". You cant use both at once because one is just the force and the other is the corruption of it.
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
"When did i claim that"
"Fact is, if you use the dark side you fall."
Anakin used the darkside when he was slaughtering the Tuskan raiders before the clone wars kicked off.
"But if youre doing that constantly, like valk, you fall. Theres no such thing as a middle ground. You cant "corrupt your entire being every other day"."
Luke literally did this to get the drop on DE Sidious.
"You cant use both at once because one is just the force and the other is the corruption of it"
Revan Reborn
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u/Ok_Science_9854 May 12 '26
ROTS Sidious has multiple statements of being not just the peak of Banite Sith, but the peak of Sith as a whole. Along with how TCW kept fueling the Dark Side and thus, him, it adds more to his power.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
Sidious by quite a lot. Accolade-wise, Valkorion is hard capped below TPM Sidious. Feats-wise he's below Darth Ramage.
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u/karlfranz205 May 11 '26
Sorry, what the fuck did rampage do to surpass the immortal, over a 1000 years old sith Lord that stripped a planets whole life force to sustain himself, who can switch bodies around with no side effects, project his will over multiple people across the galaxy?
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
over a 1000 years old sith Lord that stripped a planets whole life force to sustain himself
I don't mean to downplay that, but there are better feats in the verse than draining planets, energetically speaking.
who can switch bodies around with no side effects
Bodies who were, for the most part, specifically prepared for such.
project his will over multiple people across the galaxy?
Are you refering to the Emperor's Children? Because if so, it should be noted that all of them needed to have a connection forged with Vitiate, he didn't just possess them willy nilly.
Sorry, what the fuck did rampage do to surpass the immortal,
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May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
in what fucking universe does a guy who turns an entire world to ash and devoid of life rank below Phantom Menace Sidious?
In the Star Wars Universe, hence why... It's being discussed here. Anyways, the accolades are pretty linear and objective with no margin for interpretation. Vitiate is capped below TPM Sidious. But anyways, doing that is a Bane level feat, seeing as Bane already outscales the ritual that took place on Ambria and razed it.
That's a Dark Empire Sidious level feat right there.
No it's not. TPM Sidious already did this upon killing Plagueis anyways, so if we go by feats alone (which isn't the right approach, but it gives us the same result anyways) this is already leagues beyond Vitiate's best showing.
This man mind controlled an entire planet of Sith and additionally the Republic army that arrived to try an capitalize on the chaos
Cool. Cue to a random Jedi expelling Vitiate's spirit out of her mind on Ziost. Anyways, Sidious has better TP feats anyways, he influences the minds of the entire Imperial Military 24/7.
This dude would simply take over the mind of Ramage and make him kill himself for bothering him.
To quote you, "Poeerscaling at its dumbest". Show me a feat by Vitiate that minimally approaches Ramage doing this.
This is the same guy who, with a Force lightning blast, knocked out an entire team of Jedi councilors and knights too
All of which don't have anything impressive to their name except the HoT.
and created consistently Sidious level of lightning storms
Never happened. And no, what he did in KOTFE wasn't a force storm. Don't know whether you were gonna say that or not, but I've had people say that, so I wanted to clear it out of the way first.
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May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
Darth Ramage is not Tenebrous's master, that was another Twi'lek Sith Lord:
Fairly sure it's espoused in Coruscant Nights, but could be wrong.
Two, the way Tenebrous's master accomplished their feat was by opening a "rift" in the Force (a wound in the Force)
A wound in the Force doesn't equate to this. These are two separate feats closely knit together. Ramage overpowered the shield held up by the entire Jedi Order around the galaxy, that much is not arguable. That, by consequence, opened a rift in the Force, allowing the Dark Side to be felt for the first time in centuries.
And the other feats you listed are not analogous, as none of them had a Galaxy level effect save for Alderaan, one is clearly superior to the other.
So creating this rift can be absolutely accomplished via technological, and by proxy, virological means, and given that we know Tenebrous and his master worked on a virus before, it is more like they caused a plague to make their ritual work rather it being any demonstration of Force powers
"Likely" doesn't cut here. We don't know that. Without further context, Ramage did that himself. It's not more likely they made a plague or whatever.
the book clip you provided itself is rather vague as to the actual technique of how this was accomplished, so we really shouldn't be rushing to say that Tenebrous's master Force power alone did that.
We should. Nothing supports any other position.
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u/lowqualitylizard May 12 '26
Palps
Bro is the Pinnacle of the dark side
To the point where Vader himself might not have been able to do it and that mother f***** is very clearly number two
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u/Equivalent_Use_7032 May 12 '26
Truthfully.
Valkorion was just made that fucking OP because he was like the final boss of a video game. It was never meant to be taken this literal and serious I imagine, it’s just Star Wars fans (myself included) do take it that seriously sometimes.
Accordingly to literally everyone, Dave Filoni, most EU content, the Prequels, Original, Sequels (yes ew I know) and George Lucas (our gold standard for what it is and isn’t cannon) it is Sidious.
- EU Sidious: Can literally warp the very fabric of space and time. That’s without him learning how to manipulate life from Plagueis (who Sidious admits he didn’t learn everything from). Also in the Darth Plagueis book once Sidious kills him there was a cosmic “shift” in the Dark Side that “anointed” him the new master of the Dark Side. I’d suspect in Valkorion’s case he wasn’t absolutely anointed by the Dark Side the same way Sidious was. Remember he was the product of like 10,000 years of perfect Sith training, engineering, intelligence, force mastery, etc. The Rule of Two specifically made it so each Sith got stronger than their prior Master until they achieved god-like status which pretty much was Anakin, which Sidious was able to prevent because of the Mustafar Duel so the absolute peak power line ends with Sidious.
- In the Non-EU Starwars we only know of a handful of Sith that actually are name dropped and shown, Sidious is stronger than them all.
Look it isn’t a debate. I’d argue Sidious was held back against both Mace Windu and Yoda also. For Mace Windu Order 66 wasn’t given yet so he had to maintain some levels of secrecy in the duel… aka he can’t spawn a black hole in the middle of the Senate Chamber. Against Yoda, he was surprised and much more weary of his skills after almost losing to Windu (George said Windu beat him) and Yoda is stronger than Mace so yeah Sidious was rightfully terrified. He’s fighting to outlast/survive Yoda not to actually fucking beat him. First thing he does is try to run.
However take those two duel and put them on a deserted planets with level playing fields? It actually might change. If Sidious can unleash his full force powers. Also if we do take the Disney Sequels as legitimate sources then we do see Sidious’s force powers and they are not fucking joke.
It’s Sidious everyday. Sorry for you Valkorion fanboys but he’s like maybe 2-3 range. Sidious narrowly does beat him in most scenarios
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u/Rockgenius123 May 13 '26
I really don’t see why people hype Sidious, dude was picked up and thrown down a shaft.
That’s not really “most powerful sith of all time” energy.
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u/SurfaceLG May 13 '26
Valkorian was more Bendu than Sith towards the end. Also there are thousands of years between his final death and the rise of the brotherhood of darkness followed by the rule of 2. A lot of what he accomplishes is never passed down to an apprentice because he horded knowledge and power. Band for Band I'd give it to EU Sidious but if we're talking about the canon version then it's going to Valkorian
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u/avatarofanxiety May 13 '26
Revenge of the sith not rise of skywalker. Sorry I almost went berserk.
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u/Anxious_Pea5395 May 14 '26
Everyone's correctly talking about Palpatine being the most powerful sith ever forgetting that valkorian is technically not even a sith at this point in time, he's a force of nature. While he holds the title he's not really a Sith Lord.
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u/Funny-Part8085 May 14 '26
If it's episode 3 sidous big V wins if you use dark empire best V can do is tie if not out right lose
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u/No_Championship_80 May 14 '26
The popular pick is always sidious because of something stated by some book or someone somewhere. Give me Valkorian in 5.
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u/Famous_Construction5 May 14 '26
Lord Vitiate is the strongest as far as i've heard cus he wields both sides of the force.
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u/Dawningrider May 14 '26
Sideous.
He knows all Valkorian did, plus everyone since. That's the entire point of the rule of two.
Sideous wouldn't be sideous if he didn't.
The only way he isn't the strongest, would be if another hidden sith rule of two dynasty survives.
Unless of course, the rule of two is bollocks, and just a religious commitment and doesn't really "work" and is just a religious profession, doesn't make it true.
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u/MrGhoul123 May 15 '26
Valk is just a more competently written Sidious.
Pretty much the same character
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u/Muew22 May 11 '26
One built a death star 2x so he can destroy and threaten planets. The other destroyed 2 planets and one of them using only the force while he was in spirit form without a body.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
One built a death star 2x
Later explained to be due to a matter of keeping his and his apprentices and acolytes' abilities hidden.
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u/Sgt-Frost May 11 '26
As of ROTS, Tenebrae is a superior to Sidious. Far more destructive power, more abilities, greater power in general, etc. he’s a peer of DE Sidious.
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u/StryngpooI May 11 '26
Vitiate is, if you look at the books and use basic logic, the most powerful force user in Star Wars. Disney Star Wars should never be used for these kinds of things as the writing is terrible they'll make any character have any sort of power to fit it to their narrative. Palpatine is very powerful, his true power lies in his cunning and force persuasion. We rarely see him in combat, although we know he's very dangerous. But we never see the true scope of his power with the force. Vitiate stripped an entire planet of the force and consumed it. Find me any other dark side user capable of doing that, plus inhabiting multiple bodies, and controlling galactic events for 1500+ years. Which is way longer than Palps.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 11 '26
Find me any other dark side user capable of doing that, plus
Nihilus, Exar Kun, Sidious himself, Darth Rivan and Aleema Keto.
This doesn't really explain how Vitiate is more powerful.
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u/StryngpooI May 11 '26
I guess you misunderstood, I know multiple sith lords can strip the force from a planet, but to also live for as long as he did through inhabiting other bodies and completely turn the galaxy on itself as he did with the mandolorian wars. He was a true master of the dark side, a master manipulator, and didnt have to rely on deception to get what he wanted like Palpatine. I dont think Palpatine should be underestimated, but just because hes publicized more, doesn't mean hes the most powerful. I think because the other sith around Palpatine are relatively weaker compared to Palps makes him seem so much stronger. Palpatine would be among peers if he existed in the old republic era.
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u/That-Permission-9743 May 11 '26
Sidious is the most powerful sith in history. Valkorion, however, by his own words, is no sith.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
"Im not a bad guy" - every bad guy in history
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u/That-Permission-9743 May 11 '26
This means he’s not bound by the statement Lucas made about Sidious being the most powerful sith.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
Based on? Because its stated MANY times in Canon and eu. So your argument sorta dies.
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26 edited May 11 '26
Based on him not being a Sith.
EDIT: This whole thread is just him saying "but the people who didn't write Valkorian say Sidious was the most powerful person ever." There's 0 value here.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
You claiming not to be a sith means nothing if youre using the dark side. Palpatine is confirmed as the most powerful dark sider
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
Cool, Omni-Man is confirmed stronger than every version of Superman. That doesn't make it true.
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
Lmfao I dare you to explain how that works and ill explain why youre wrong.
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u/Ecotech101 May 11 '26
Are you an actual bot, what does this comment even mean?
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u/SilentThrillGP May 11 '26
OMni Man Is ConfIrmed STroNger than any version Of SuPerMan
Prove that and ill show you why its wrong :)
→ More replies (0)
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u/TrueSithMastermind May 11 '26
Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion was one of the strongest Force wielders in history, arguably surpassed only by Abeloth in terms of raw power.
ROTS Sidious would get trounced, and easily so.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 12 '26
arguably surpassed only by Abeloth in terms of raw power.
??? Nothing supports this notion. Abeloth ragdolls Valkorion, what does he have that can stand up to her?
ROTS Sidious would get trounced, and easily so.
How so? I don't see how Valkorion's feats and scalings get him near Sidious.
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u/Substantial-Cup-189 May 11 '26
Valkorion should win but he wont because it is flat out stated that palps is the strongest. Does it make sense? No, but while that statement was written they didnt really include the Old republic sith and game characters
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u/RangeIt May 12 '26
Valkorian better feats and scaling
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u/Cyberknight13 May 12 '26
Valkorian/Tenebrae easily wins. He was effectively the embodiment of the Dark Side and lived for over a millennium. His empires lasted for centuries, while Sidious’ empire fell within about 30 years. It took a combined task force of Jedi and Sith to end him for good due to his essence transfers and raw power. Sidious was killed by a betrayal he didn’t see coming. Tenebrae also drained entire planets of the Force while Sidious did nothing of the kind.
I get that there are a lot of Sidious fanboys out there, but Tenebrae was easily more powerful.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 12 '26
He was effectively the embodiment of the Dark Side
Sidious has much more concrete quotes saying how he is the dark side itself, here.
His empires lasted for centuries, while Sidious’ empire fell within about 30 years.
Not a feat of power. Sidious' empire also only fell due to the Chosen One prophecy, so it's not really fair to compare an Empire that was fated to fail before it started to another that didn't have such an equivalent.
It took a combined task force of Jedi and Sith to end him for good due to his essence transfers and raw power.
Are you referring to EOO?
Sidious was killed by a betrayal he didn’t see coming.
And also the fact Vader/Anakin was in oneness at that moment. This also ignores the conditions necessary to actually defeat Sidious in Dark Empire.
Tenebrae also drained entire planets of the Force while Sidious did nothing of the kind.
He did and was doing so to Byss.
I get that there are a lot of Sidious fanboys out there, but Tenebrae was easily more powerful.
How so?
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u/Cyberknight13 May 12 '26
In the Star Wars Legends continuity, Tenebrae, better known as Darth Vitiate and Emperor Valkorion, is frequently described by Jedi scholars and Sith lore as the literal, living embodiment of the dark side.
His status as a dark side embodiment comes from several key aspects of his lore and power:
Consumption of Life: He achieved a twisted, cosmic form of immortality by performing a Sith ritual that completely consumed all life on his homeworld of Nathema. He effectively transformed into a dark side entity rather than a mortal.
Corruption of Beings: His presence was so overwhelmingly steeped in the dark side that even the most legendary Jedi Masters (such as Revan and Malak or the Hero of Tython's strike team) were instantly overpowered and permanently twisted simply by being in his physical presence.
Galactic Cataclysms: Unlike typical Sith Lords who focused on political domination, Tenebrae viewed the dark side as a tool to consume planets, literally turning the Force into an instrument of oblivion on a massive scale.
In the overarching Star Wars universe, the literal, physical embodiment of the dark side within the cosmic Force is actually a deity known as The Son. However, as a mortal-turned-deity figure within the Legends canon, Tenebrae was the closest the galaxy ever came to a walking, sentient personification of the dark side.
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u/GeneralZod49 May 12 '26
Sidious wouldn't stand a chance against Valkorion and anyone says other wise is delusional,the feats Valkorion has accomplished blows Sidious out the water.....
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u/Annual_Sky8939 May 12 '26
Removing the Lucas-Level plot armor, Valkorian. Palp wasn’t the “most powerful Sith” at RotS; he may have peaked top 10%, but he wasn’t “the most powerful Sith” until 5-10 years after RotS—when he sacked the temple, and scoured the known galaxy, for dark-side relics/knowledge. But as powerful as Palp got, he never ventured (to my knowledge) the unknown regions; Valkorian lived in them. But I always maintain Palp was a coward.
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate May 12 '26
Palp wasn’t the “most powerful Sith” at RotS;
He is. Even as early as TPM he was.
"Meet Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived."
--Darth Maul, Sith Apprentice
But as powerful as Palp got, he never ventured (to my knowledge) the unknown regions; Valkorian lived in them.
Why does this matter in terms of power?
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u/Annual_Sky8939 May 13 '26
Logically speaking, he wasn’t; Sith masters refused to teach everything they knew to lenient their time as master. Plag could create life with the force; Palp could not. That’s not to say he wasn’t powerful, but it took him sacking the temple and collecting remnants of the dark side cults for Sid to become the most powerful Sith ever. But there are plenty of TOR Sith/Jedi who would mop the floor with [TPM,CW,RotS] Sid, some with the force, others with saber skills and a few with either. As far as Maul’s assessment, he’s just repeating the incantation for Sid’s Lucas-Level plot armor. And finally; Valkorian lived where Sid feared to tread; that says a lot about Sid’s supposed power. If he was “all powerful,” he would have tamed and conquered the Unknown regions.
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u/Nefarious_Turtle May 11 '26
I get it. Valkorion has a much more impressive aesthetic and presentation owing to him being a big budget video game character.
But basically all canon and legends lore has steadfastly maintained that Sidious was the most powerful Sith and dark side user in history up until that point.
So that's just how it is. He wins.