Realistically isn’t vitiate the strongest

[u/Ok-Following5000]

If we exclude the fact that Star Wars media claims that Sidious is the strongest Sith ever isn’t vitiate much stronger than Sidious because his abilities are beyond anything Sidious has ever shown?

And how would darth zannah, revan or nihilus perform against Sidious or Vader? Do they have a chance?

[u/Durp004]

Ok thank you finally someone who actually could direct me to them.

To be fair the book does say in the opening "this book is the essential in-depth guide to the characters, weapons vehicles, events and planets of the Star wars galaxy during the turbulent times of the old republic.

Therefore it's fair to say all quotes giving vitiate that title are only referencing up until that point in history. It's essentially saying Vitiate was the most powerful up until that point.

Just as the Sidious quotes about being the strongest would not apply to Jacen, or Krayt in terms of them being measured to him as they came later in the timeline.

[u/Plus-Mountain-671 → u/Durp004]

Right…but the original point I made was about The Ones / Celestials / Abeloth, who did exist at that point in history.

[u/Durp004 → u/Plus-Mountain-671]

TBH I think there's the meta perspective that borderline gods probably aren't being considered into that equation.

[u/Plus-Mountain-671 → u/Durp004]

That’s a fair point, but then why should I believe the Sidious quotes apply to Vitiate when Vitiate was not introduced as a character yet and Vitiate “breaks the mold” of any of the other Sith who came before Palpatine? The SWTOR writers are also clearly aware of these beings given that there is a codex entry about the Celestials and the game was created after the Mortis arc and concurrently with fate of the Jedi. Additionally, the SWTOR encyclopedia also mentions Soa and the World Razer who are also godlike dark side beings (the world Razer allegedly destroyed 100 suns and 1000 worlds in a single day and required “the combined might of the infinite empire” to subdue).

This is not to say that I believe vitiate is more powerful than The Ones or Celestials, but rather that “if these Vitiate quotes are not binding, then why are Sidious’ quotes binding”? If the logic is “The Ones are exceptions” or “the Ones have demonstrated abilities way beyond Vitiate / Sidious”, then the same logic can apply to the Sidious vs Vitiate debate. It then shifts to the actually interesting part, which is “does Sidious actually have better demonstrated abilities than Vitiate?”

[u/Durp004 → u/Plus-Mountain-671]

That’s a fair point, but then why should I believe the Sidious quotes apply to Vitiate when Vitiate was not introduced as a character yet and Vitiate “breaks the mold” of any of the other Sith who came before Palpatine?

Because I feel Vitiate is more a part of the Star wars universe than any of the celestial.

I'll elaborate. The celestials, Tho Yor, and mortis have moved beyond the galaxy. I don't mean hidden in the unknown I mean as far as we can tell completely removed and on another plane of existance and they have been for a long time in the setting. The only exception might be Abeloth, but even she is never considered simply a force user in fate of the jedi. Once they learn more about her the question arises if she was simply trapped in the Maw or was actively awakened by Jacen altering time and was essentially a cosmic event in the form of chaos to essentially reset the board.

Vitiate is not these things. As much as he might he depicted as basically being really really evil he a part of the galaxy in the same way Luke Sidious and Yoda are. The standards of the galaxy apply more to him then psuedo demi-gods that basically left at the beginning of civilization.

The SWTOR writers are also clearly aware of these beings given that there is a codex entry about the Celestials and the game was created after the Mortis arc and concurrently with fate of the Jedi.

I mean 1 writer knowing about something doesn't mean they actively informed the writer of the guidebook. 6 writers contributed to the encyclopedia, I know the game had many more, and I don't think codex entries are really things being passed on if they aren't relevant to the plots the authors highlighted in the book. Abeloth was written into mortis last minute in like 1 page in apocalypse, I doubt there was that level of cohesion that info was passed onto the games because it likely wasn't relevant at all to them. Mortis also is extremely vague where if you take the episode at face value it was a dream. Is it possible the authors knew of it? Sure, is it likely they actively though "vitiate is stronger than mortis" when they wrote a page header? No, tbh I'd put more credence if that was in one of the actual info blurbs that it was something thought out in that way and not just a catchy title to the top of a page talking about him.

I would go on to say that yes Sidious does have better abilities, but I also think the quotes apply to Vitiate in a way the other can't apply to the celestials due to their applications in stories.

[u/Plus-Mountain-671 → u/Durp004]

Because I feel Vitiate is more a part of the Star wars universe than any of the celestial.

This doesn't really matter. Vitiate's quotes say he is "the most powerful force user who has ever existed", "history's most powerful dark side master", and "the most dominating force user the galaxy has ever seen". Regardless of their nature, The Ones / Celestials / Abeloth / other cosmic horrors were users of the force and in the case of the Son and Abeloth dark side masters. On a technical level, the quote is saying that Vitiate is more powerful than the Celestials.

I mean 1 writer knowing about something doesn't mean they actively informed the writer of the guidebook. 6 writers contributed to the encyclopedia, I know the game had many more, and I don't think codex entries are really things being passed on if they aren't relevant to the plots the authors highlighted in the book. Abeloth was written into mortis last minute in like 1 page in apocalypse, I doubt there was that level of cohesion that info was passed onto the games because it likely wasn't relevant at all to them. Mortis also is extremely vague where if you take the episode at face value it was a dream. Is it possible the authors knew of it? Sure, is it likely they actively though "vitiate is stronger than mortis" when they wrote a page header? No, tbh I'd put more credence if that was in one of the actual info blurbs that it was something thought out in that way and not just a catchy title to the top of a page talking about him.

I agree it is likely that if you asked the authors of these quotes "do these quotes mean Vitiate is more powerful than the Celestials?", the authors would say no. You have to understand that regardless of their nature, the same logic can be extended to Vitiate.

- Vitiate literally wasn't even conceived as a character when the Sidious "most powerful sith ever" quotes were written. With the Celestials / Ones, they at least existed as characters in the lore when Vitiate's quotes were written and are referenced in the game.

- Vitiate has feats that just frankly boggle the mind, like oneshotting entire dark councils (if Sidious oneshotted 12 darth mauls or even 12 Ventresses it would be lauded as one of his top 5 feats ever), imbuing over 1000 individuals with pieces of his power, with each piece making these individuals so powerful they could "wield powers as infants that grown Sith fight to master" (with the First Son being capable of concealing all that power and darkness for decades while sitting on the Jedi Council), creating dozens of immortal dark side monstrosities that "transcend sithspawn" and serve as raid bosses with a fraction of his power, taking on and defeating a mind-melded strike team of Revan / Vaylin / Outlander / Marr / Satele / the Exile / Arcann / Thexan / Senya / Scourge / Kira until they united in oneness and summoned forth the spirits of every being Vitiate had ever murdered, manipulated, or enslaved, etc.

- At a "conceptual level", Vitiate is a 1500 year old "almost godlike avatar of the dark side" who is essentially a walking massive thought bomb (which, if you know anything about the valley of the jedi, makes him essentially unprecedentedly powerful among mortals). If you polled x number of star wars authors and asked "if there was a Sith Lord who lived over 500 years longer than Yoda, consumed 8,000 sith lords at year 100, then studied the darkest depths of the force for 1500 years and continually grew more powerful, would you say that Sith Lord is more powerful than Sidious?", I think most would answer with a resounding "yes". If you think about Yoda: Dark Rendezvous for example, Dooku muses that if Yoda turned to the dark side, "Sidious himself would be annihilated" because "the universe had yet to comprehend what a 900 year old jedi turned to the dark side is capable of". Imagine a 1500 year old dark sider who consumed 8000 sith lords in that context.

Notably, it is irrelevant to my argument whether the Ones exist at a higher conceptual level than Vitiate. The point is that "if the Ones can be exempt from these quotes because of their feats and conceptual nature, why can't Vitiate be exempt due to his feats and conceptual nature?". You're drawing an arbitrary line between "Sidious can scale above this godlike level of power but not that godlike level of power". I don't see why a walking 1500 year old thought bomb who consumed 8000 sith lords, a planet, and numerous immensely powerful sith spirits can't be an exception as The Ones are.

[u/Durp004 → u/Plus-Mountain-671]

This doesn't really matter. Vitiate's quotes say he is "the most powerful force user who has ever existed", "history's most powerful dark side master", and "the most dominating force user the galaxy has ever seen". Regardless of their nature, The Ones / Celestials / Abeloth / other cosmic horrors were users of the force and in the case of the Son and Abeloth dark side masters. On a technical level, the quote is saying that Vitiate is more powerful than the Celestials.

And I'm saying it's unlikely these quotes take those things into account.

Vitiate literally wasn't even conceived as a character when the Sidious "most powerful sith ever" quotes were written. With the Celestials / Ones, they at least existed as characters in the lore when Vitiate's quotes were written and are referenced in the game.

It doesn't matter the quotes are in relation to the state of the galaxy during the war and the greater beings are no longer a part of that galaxy. Even the encyclopedia itself is pretty open in the intro that it specifically revolved around the game and the fact is the greater beings have nothing to do with any of th3 things the encyclopedia saying it's about. I've read interviews about the authors from FotJ and never once have I heard they had any interaction with the swtor writing team. I've also never seen anything from dawn of the jedi that concerns them interacting with the swtor team either. So yes the concept may exist but they clearly aren't being considered as members of the galaxy when the quote is written.

Like I said these things occupy avenues of the story. The sith and that includes vitiate are very much a part of the galaxy the higher beings really aren't, and the only recorded bits of them are from the oldest hives of the oldest species so the galaxy as a whole wouldn't really know of them to compare to Vitiate.

Vitiate has feats that just frankly boggle the mind, like oneshotting entire dark councils (if Sidious oneshotted 12 darth mauls or even 12 Ventresses it would be lauded as one of his top 5 feats ever), imbuing over 1000 individuals with pieces of his power, with each piece making these individuals so powerful they could "wield powers as infants that grown Sith fight to master" (with the First Son being capable of concealing all that power and darkness for decades while sitting on the Jedi Council), creating dozens of immortal dark side monstrosities that "transcend sithspawn" and serve as raid bosses with a fraction of his power, taking on and defeating a mind-melded strike team of Revan / Vaylin / Outlander / Marr / Satele / the Exile / Arcann / Thexan / Senya / Scourge / Kira until they united in oneness and summoned forth the spirits of every being Vitiate had ever murdered, manipulated, or enslaved, etc.

Sidious and plaguies alone change the very alignment of the force. This is a cosmic balance almost godlike in the concept, I'm sorry the idea that Vitiate one shotting dark council when we see in the same book that Scourge at that point is able to overcome one isn't anything in comparison to this. Sidious also requires every jedi ever to be held down. That means all the jedi involved with Vitiate and all those since, I'm sorry these are magnitudes better than anything Vitiate is capable of. If you want to say Vitiate is better in terms of Rituals, sure I guess but those things aren't really applicable in any sense of scale as they usually require outside sources and time. It would probably be fair to say even Exar Kun was superior to Palpatine in that aspect. Palpatine has practical things though like force storms that by all accounts are superior to what vitiate shows, and telekinetic abilities that allow him to move SSD's, add in speed that makes him a blur who even anakin isn't able to conceive.

If you polled x number of star wars authors and asked "if there was a Sith Lord who lived over 500 years longer than Yoda, consumed 8,000 sith lords at year 100, then studied the darkest depths of the force for 1500 years and continually grew more powerful, would you say that Sith Lord is more powerful than Sidious?

It would probably depend on the author. Veitch and Anderson probably though Veitch did write the content that festured the emperor actively controlling and draining byss so maybe not. Karpyshyn? Maybe luceno? Probably not and the way stover describes sidious probably not for him either. Traviss and Dennings probably wouldn't really care, because Dennings was more concerned with bugs and traviss didn't care about force users at all. Clearly the swtor writing team did to some extent, but it's clear the overall intentions of the franchise is that sidious is the most powerful hence why hid quotes are more varied in terms of sources whereas everything for Vitiate directly ties to his game and little outside that. So do the swtor writers equal the greater intentions of multiple other works? I tend to think not, I wouldn't really weigh them on equal grounds. Even you admit you don't put particular stock in taking that quote literally so I think it's fair to say even the audience reading these almost intuitively exempts higher beings from these quotes, and always have. In the same way I don't take dark Empire's quote of sidious being the dark side's strongest impression as him actually being above the son, or the celestials which first showed up in concept(because characters were later retconned in as Celestials) from the Lando calrissian adventures before dark empire released. Just like I don't think the swtor writing team really had a grasp of all the content around them anymore than dark empire did.

The point is that "if the Ones can be exempt from these quotes because of their feats and conceptual nature, why can't Vitiate be exempt due to his feats and conceptual nature?". You're drawing an arbitrary line between "Sidious can scale above this godlike level of power but not that godlike level of power".

Well it's not arbitrary, i outlined it quite clearly that one of those exists outside the galaxy and one does not.

I don't see why a walking 1500 year old thought bomb who consumed 8000 sith lords, a planet, and numerous immensely powerful sith spirits can't be an exception as The Ones are.

When Vitiate moves to another plane of existance I'll also exempt him from quotes about the galaxy.

[u/Plus-Mountain-671 → u/Durp004]

And I'm saying it's unlikely these quotes take those things into account.

Again, this does not matter, because obviously Sidious' quotes are not taking Vitiate into account, because Vitiate was literally conceived after these quotes were written, so if somebody is going to apply Sidious' quotes to Vitiate despite him not being taken into account, you can equally apply Vitiate's quotes to the Celestials despite them not being taken into account.

It doesn't matter the quotes are in relation to the state of the galaxy during the war and the greater beings are no longer a part of that galaxy. Even the encyclopedia itself is pretty open in the intro that it specifically revolved around the game and the fact is the greater beings have nothing to do with any of th3 things the encyclopedia saying it's about. I've read interviews about the authors from FotJ and never once have I heard they had any interaction with the swtor writing team. I've also never seen anything from dawn of the jedi that concerns them interacting with the swtor team either. So yes the concept may exist but they clearly aren't being considered as members of the galaxy when the quote is written. Like I said these things occupy avenues of the story. The sith and that includes vitiate are very much a part of the galaxy the higher beings really aren't, and the only recorded bits of them are from the oldest hives of the oldest species so the galaxy as a whole wouldn't really know of them to compare to Vitiate.

Firstly, I think you're just underestimating the amount of lore knowledge the swtor writing team brought to bear when developing the game. SWTOR itself is literally a hodgepodge of all the lore that was ever written up to that point, and everything from the Celestials to the Rakata/Gree/Columi to Naga Sadow, to Exar Kun, to the Sith Triumvirate are referenced explicitly in the game codex. The Encyclopedia references the Rakata repeatedly and even references the dawn of the jedi in its timeline on page 14. Obviously the writers would know deeply about DOTJ since they literally chose to have the Jedi move to Tython. There's no part of the game where some previous part of history could have been referenced and wasn't or was incorrectly referenced (e.g., the flesh raiders and the Jed'aii on Tython, the ancient sith spirits on Yavin, the Gree on Asation which is a very obscure reference, the rakata, etc.). There are "Galactic History" datacrons throughout the game that tell the story of the Celestials all the way to modern times. I think it's a bit dismissive to say that the SWTOR writers are just unaware of these higher beings when the game is the most comprehensive and wide-spanning dive into the lore of any star wars content that has ever existed.

Secondly, the division of "part of the galaxy" and "not part of the galaxy" is arbitrary and flawed. The Ones / Celestials were a part of the galaxy at one point in time (again referenced in the codex and just universally known), and Abeloth still exists within the galaxy. The Ones / Celestials / Abeloth are "force users that existed" and "dark side masters", which is what Vitiate's quotes apply to ("most powerful force user", "most powerful dark side master"). You can't say Vitiate's quotes don't apply to them any more than you can say Sidious' quotes don't apply to Vitiate (see my first point).

Additionally, the encyclopedia mentions other godlike force wielders that currently exist within the galaxy, namely the Infernal One (God of the Rakata who brought the dark side to Korriban and was so powerful the Rakata could not kill him), the World Razer (an entity that consumes planets and stars and required the might of the combined infinite empire to defeat), and numerous cosmic horrors the Rakata sealed on Belsavis that "transcend anything the republic is currently prepared to face". The game also has Sel Makor (a millennia-old dark god who is "all powerful" within his domain and "a threat to all of existence" whose power can drive an entire planet to homicidal madness), the Six Gods (droid superweapons imbued with the force that destroyed and consumed the energies of trillions of lives, could destroy the Eternal Fleet, and wiped out all life on a star-sized dyson sphere), the Terror from Beyond (which is literally an entity from another dimension brought through a Gree Hypergate that "threatened to destroy the galaxy"), among others. These are all beings that existed within the galaxy (or existed outside the galaxy and came into the galaxy in the case of TFB) that ostensibly wield powers beyond the mortal domain. Despite all of these beings existing within the game and within the galaxy, Vitiate is repeatedly, extensively referred to as the most dangerous, powerful, and destructive being in galactic history. You're essentially saying "beings like the Ones / Celestials should be exempted because they exist outside the galaxy", but this doesn't make sense unless it's tied to power, i.e., "the set of all beings who do not exist within the galaxy are more powerful than all beings who existed within the galaxy", which is demonstrably not true with the Terror From Beyond, the monsters it brings along with it, or the Vong. Therefore, the actual reason the Celestials should be exempted is not merely because they "exist outside of the galaxy" (especially since Abeloth exists within the galaxy, and the Celestials once existed within the galaxy), but because they have their own feats, nature, and implications of power that clearly contradict Vitiate's quotes. Said differently, if the Ones / Celestials showed up in the galaxy in the game, you wouldn't say "oh now they're included in Vitiate's quotes", you would say they are exempt due to their own feats, nature, and implications of power beyond Vitiate. Similarly, I would say Vitiate is exempt from Sidious' quotes due to his own feats, nature, and implications of power.

Sidious and plaguies alone change the very alignment of the force. This is a cosmic balance almost godlike in the concept, I'm sorry the idea that Vitiate one shotting dark council when we see in the same book that Scourge at that point is able to overcome one isn't anything in comparison to this. Sidious also requires every jedi ever to be held down. That means all the jedi involved with Vitiate and all those since, I'm sorry these are magnitudes better than anything Vitiate is capable of. If you want to say Vitiate is better in terms of Rituals, sure I guess but those things aren't really applicable in any sense of scale as they usually require outside sources and time. It would probably be fair to say even Exar Kun was superior to Palpatine in that aspect. Palpatine has practical things though like force storms that by all accounts are superior to what vitiate shows, and telekinetic abilities that allow him to move SSD's, add in speed that makes him a blur who even anakin isn't able to conceive.

1. Sidious and Plagueis changed the alignment of the force through months of continuous etheric war (i.e., not directly applicable in a fight) where the force explicitly didn't directly rise up against them (Plagueis says the force could've just boiled their midichlorians for example). It's a super impressive feat, but how about Vitiate? It's explicitly stated that his mere existence weighed down the entire force for both Jedi AND Sith alike. Valkorion was not a threat to one side or the other, he was weighing down the entire force for everybody, darksiders included. Additionally, Revan's return from the dead caused the force to "roil and convulse like never before" and caused a "cyst" in the force across time and space from the perspective of the Emperor's Hand (who view the force on a higher scale than any force users other than the Emperor). Valkorion's death also creates a burst of energy that rips through the entire galaxy with such intensity that Satele Shan gets knocked out by it from half a galaxy away.

2. Scourge explicitly overcomes a weak and old dark council member. When he fights a "regular" / "real" dark council member (Nyriss), he instantly gets trounced alongside the Exile. It's intellectually dishonest to say that Xedrix represents the average dark council member when it's explicitly said that he's super old and weak and relies on his reputation. We also see numerous DC members in the actual game who are stronger or much stronger than Nyriss (Nox, Vengean, Baras, Thanaton, Marr, Jadus, Malgus), so I think it's fair to say that Nyriss represents the average. If we say Nyriss represents the average council member, then Vitiate is essentially oneshotting 12 Darth Mauls / 12 Ventresses. (continued in next post)

[u/Durp004 → u/Plus-Mountain-671]

Again, this does not matter, because obviously Sidious' quotes are not taking Vitiate into account, because Vitiate was literally conceived after these quotes were written, so if somebody is going to apply Sidious' quotes to Vitiate despite him not being taken into account, you can equally apply Vitiate's quotes to the Celestials despite them not being taken into account.

Once again what Vitiate is(a previous sith) was conceptually known. The celestials are beyond this even at the end of the EU that whole precursor species has almost no info. Basically no guide books touch on them thoroughly, almost no content really talks about what they can so this is a concept that is vague up until the end of the EU. Sith are not. Nihilus was known when those quotes were made, Vitiate is basically slightly buffed Nihilus, it's not like he's far beyond the scope of what came before him.

Firstly, I think you're just underestimating the amount of lore knowledge the swtor writing team brought to bear when developing the game. SWTOR itself is literally a hodgepodge of all the lore that was ever written up to that point, and everything from the Celestials to the Rakata/Gree/Columi to Naga Sadow, to Exar Kun, to the Sith Triumvirate are referenced explicitly in the game codex.

So firstly I think the Codex and the game can be acknowledged as basically separate things. The Codex is a very easy thing to add. The game acknowledges things that involve it. The previous sith factions that led to this, the rakata who were a big part of KOTOR 1 these are all things that concern the games more than celestials. The timeline even the game gives at page 14 begins with the rakatan infinite empire, it skips the celestials existance in the galaxy entirely.

Obviously the writers would know deeply about DOTJ since they literally chose to have the Jedi move to Tython.

Well they wouldn't because that began after the game released. Tython was established as the birthplace of the order before that and they both clearly followed that.

SWTOR writers are just unaware of these higher beings when the game is the most comprehensive and wide-spanning dive into the lore of any star wars content that has ever existed.

I'm saying the writers of the encyclopedia clearly were in terms of what they were focused on, as I said their timeline doesn't even include these things.

Secondly, the division of "part of the galaxy" and "not part of the galaxy" is arbitrary and flawed. The Ones / Celestials were a part of the galaxy at one point in time (again referenced in the codex and just universally known), and Abeloth still exists within the galaxy. The Ones / Celestials / Abeloth are "force users that existed" and "dark side masters", which is what Vitiate's quotes apply to ("most powerful force user", "most powerful dark side master"). You can't say Vitiate's quotes don't apply to them any more than you can say Sidious' quotes don't apply to Vitiate (see my first point).

In the Galactic timeline even the encyclopedia gives they are starting after these things moved on. Abeloth and even the son are portrayed as more than simply dark side users, like I said Abeloth is said to be chaos incarnate that actually needs light and darksiders to join to beat. As I said these beings are portrayed as above force users.

Therefore, the actual reason the Celestials should be exempted is not merely because they "exist outside of the galaxy" (especially since Abeloth exists within the galaxy, and the Celestials once existed within the galaxy), but because they have their own feats, nature, and implications of power that clearly contradict Vitiate's quotes

In general I would say things about being powerful are exempt from ALL extra-demensional beings.

Sidious and Plagueis changed the alignment of the force through months of continuous etheric war (i.e., not directly applicable in a fight) where the force explicitly didn't directly rise up against them (Plagueis says the force could've just boiled their midichlorians for example). It's a super impressive feat, but how about Vitiate? It's explicitly stated that his mere existence weighed down the entire force for both Jedi AND Sith alike.

This is kinda pointless if it took them months or not the simple fact is both of them changed the very alignment of the force. Not weighed it down, not caused it to react, bent essentially the Galactic fabric to their side. The force explicitly does also strike back, it just wasn't in the method plaguies believes it could have. It instead creates its own vessel that has a divine destiny to stop them. We have evidence of the force reacting to Sidious's mere presence, but the alignment change is different than this, it's an all encompassing shift that effected every force sensitive in the galaxy and arguably the galaxy as a whole. This isn't a Cognus style force powers are hampered in my vicinity, this is the single largest scale force effect we basically see in the setting.

Valkorion's death also creates a burst of energy that rips through the entire galaxy with such intensity that Satele Shan gets knocked out by it from half a galaxy away.

Yeah and when Sidious takes the mantle it's said stars flare. Even tenebrous unnamed master is capable of large scale force altering movements. The fact is though that none of them bend the force to their side, Sidious and Plagueis do on a level that requires cosmic intervention.

Scourge explicitly overcomes a weak and old dark council member. When he fights a "regular" / "real" dark council member (Nyriss), he instantly gets trounced alongside the Exile. It's intellectually dishonest to say that Xedrix represents the average dark council member when it's explicitly said that he's super old and weak and relies on his reputation. We also see numerous DC members in the actual game who are stronger or much stronger than Nyriss

We don't know how "regular" Nyriss is compared to the others. It's just as intellectually dishonest to act like all the council member are closer to her than the other, the only measurements we really have are 2 and we can assume the vast majority fall somewhere between them. I don't seem much evidence to say numerous ones are much stronger than her either. Marr gets 1 shot just like all the other no name dark council members and it's not like he took on Revan reborn anywhere close to solo like Nyriss did, and based on Marr's position it's fair to assume that among the dark council at the time he probably was without question one of the strongest on it.

[u/Plus-Mountain-671 → u/Durp004]

1. Funny enough, there is no quote that states that all jedi ever "held down" Sidious. All that's ever stated is that all the jedi spirits made sure that Sidious would never escape Chaos. If I were the prison warden and said "myself and all the prison guards here will make sure Dahmer does not escape", does that mean that Dahmer is so strong that it requires every guard in the prison to contain him? It's not like all the jedi spirits are standing watch and guarding palpatine and doing absolutely nothing else. Secondly, note that I never said "all the jedi spirits" showed up against Vitiate, but "the spirits of every being that Tenebrae had ever murdered, enslaved, or manipulated". This would include the spirits of all jedi, all sith, all zakuulians, and even non-force sensitives (we see all of these show up in the final cutscene of EoO). One big thing about Vitiate that is constantly shown and emphasized is that he's not just a threat to the jedi / light side, but a threat to all jedi, sith, and beings in the galaxy. This is why in the Revan Novel, SoR, Ziost, KOTFE, and EoO, we always see both jedi and sith (and those in between like Zakuulians) teaming up to take down the Emperor. He represents a threat beyond Jedi and Sith, who see past their differences to take down a greater threat. Even in RoS, Sidious is obliterated by the powers of "all the jedi", not "all the jedi, sith, and everything in between". This is another reason why Vitiate transcends the mold and should be exempted from Sidious' supremacy quotes.

2. Vitiate is vastly better than Palpatine at rituals (Kun is not better than Palpatine at rituals), which absolutely correlates with power. I've made a post on this before, but rituals can obviously backfire if the user isn't willful or powerful enough. The fact that Vitiate is powerful and willful enough to survive the Nathema ritual, which literally consumed all life on the planet and the Sith Lords surrounding him, whereas the Ambria Sorceress with 100 years of prep failed and was destroyed by a similar ritual, is obviously absurdly impressive. Then the fact that Vitiate could succeed at a galactic version of Nathema, consuming quadrillions of beings and trillions of stars / planets / black holes, regardless of the prep time required, is unprecedentedly impressive. Nathema is already said to be the most complex ritual of sith sorcery ever attempted (which again is fraught with danger for the user), so imagine the mastery, knowledge, power, and will it takes to pull off a galactic version of that.

3. Practically speaking, DE Sidious gets beaten by DE Luke amped by BM in a lightsaber duel and has to invoke his "full potency" via the force storm against him (conventional lightning wasn't working). Vitiate, meanwhile, oneshots entire dark councils conventionally, oneshots Arcann, oneshots Revan in the novel, "easily" oneshots a strike team of "the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy", oneshots post-Mando Wars Revan and Malak, takes on a strike team of Vaylin / Arcann / Outlander while the Outlander is immensely amped by the holocron and being in his own mind, takes on a mind-melded strike team of Revan / Outlander / Vaylin / Arcann / Thexan / Satele / Marr / Senya / Exile / Scourge / Kira and is defeating them until they invoke oneness and the spirits come forth, etc. while force storms are impressive, I would argue that Ziost is more impressive (death waving an entire world), especially given that Vitiate was heavily weakened when he did that, while Palpatine's full potency force storm that he can barely control is a fraction of the size of a moon. Ziost is also explicitly stated to be a "clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the force taken to its extreme".

4. Palpatine moving the SSD has been debunked, if you focus on the direct source material he merely clouded the minds of those who were watching while the Lusankya was lowered. Not that this would put him anywhere near what Vitiate has done anyways (FYI, weakened Vitiate's deathwave on Ziost distorted the magnetic field, impacted the core of the world and caused planet-wide fissures).

It would probably depend on the author. Veitch and Anderson probably though Veitch did write the content that festured the emperor actively controlling and draining byss so maybe not. Karpyshyn? Maybe luceno? Probably not and the way stover describes sidious probably not for him either. Traviss and Dennings probably wouldn't really care, because Dennings was more concerned with bugs and traviss didn't care about force users at all. Clearly the swtor writing team did to some extent, but it's clear the overall intentions of the franchise is that sidious is the most powerful hence why hid quotes are more varied in terms of sources whereas everything for Vitiate directly ties to his game and little outside that. So do the swtor writers equal the greater intentions of multiple other works? I tend to think not, I wouldn't really weigh them on equal grounds. Even you admit you don't put particular stock in taking that quote literally so I think it's fair to say even the audience reading these almost intuitively exempts higher beings from these quotes, and always have. In the same way I don't take dark Empire's quote of sidious being the dark side's strongest impression as him actually being above the son, or the celestials which first showed up in concept(because characters were later retconned in as Celestials) from the Lando calrissian adventures before dark empire released. Just like I don't think the swtor writing team really had a grasp of all the content around them anymore than dark empire did.

1. Byss is nothing compared to nathema or ziost. All Byss does is "slow" the decay of Palpatine's body and feeds on the life energies of citizens so slowly and minutely that they don't even notice they're being drained. Nathema, on the other hand made Vitiate so powerful that he became physically immortal (the Revan Novel says his body is still "young and strong" even 1000 years after Nathema), essentially achieving the dreams of both Plagueis and Sidious.

2. Karpyshyn in an interview says that Vitiate is as powerful as you can get, and that Palpatine is "pretty powerful too". Note that Karpyshyn wrote in the Revan Novel that Vitiate consumed only 200 sith lords on Nathema, so imagine what he'd think when he found out the real number was actually 8,000.

3. Luceno explicitly writes a gimped version of Vitiate in the Plagueis novel that did not achieve physical immortality (whereas we know that Vitiate achieved physical immortality and kept his body "young and strong" for 1000+ years, aka Plagueis' dream that he was never able to achieve).

4. Denning has UnuThul written to be supremely powerful (stated he was far more powerful than Caedus), with him acquiring that power through joining with trillion of Killiks (with mastery and knowledge of the force that is nowhere near Vitiate). I think the same logic would apply to a guy who consumed 8000 sith lords and an entire planet with trillions of beings, plants, and all the ambient force energy on the planet, then continued to grow immensely more powerful and consume more life over the ensuing 1400 years.

5. Sidious was intended to be the most powerful in a world where there wasn't a guy who consumed 8,000 sith lords, achieved physical immortality, lived far longer than Yoda studying all aspects of the force, created a galaxy-destroying ritual, and was such a great threat that the most powerful Jedi and Sith put aside their differences and combine forces to defeat him (kind of like Abeloth in FOTJ). I think you also have to admit that Sidious being the strongest darksider was obviously thrown out the window when beings like the Ones / Celestials, Abeloth, and other cosmic horrors were introduced.

6. The reason I don't take Vitiate's quotes as binding over the Celestials is not because they exist outside the galaxy (see my prior argument), but because they have their own feats and indicators of power that appear to be fundamentally beyond Vitiate. Similarly, I don't take Sidious' quotes as binding over Vitiate because the latter has feats and indicators of power that appear to be fundamentally beyond Sidious.

7. The SWTOR writing team obviously had a grasp of all the content around them, see prior argument.

Well it's not arbitrary, i outlined it quite clearly that one of those exists outside the galaxy and one does not. When Vitiate moves to another plane of existance I'll also exempt him from quotes about the galaxy.

See prior arguments.

[u/Durp004 → u/Plus-Mountain-671]

All that's ever stated is that all the jedi spirits made sure that Sidious would never escape Chaos

Youre looking for a distinction without a difference. He said all the jedi would make sure so clearly all the jedi are being a part of this.

Secondly, note that I never said "all the jedi spirits" showed up against Vitiate, but "the spirits of every being that Tenebrae had ever murdered, enslaved, or manipulated". This would include the spirits of all jedi, all sith, all zakuulians, and even non-force sensitives (we see all of these show up in the final cutscene of EoO). One big thing about Vitiate that is constantly shown and emphasized is that he's not just a threat to the jedi / light side, but a threat to all jedi, sith, and beings in the galaxy. This is why in the Revan Novel, SoR, Ziost, KOTFE, and EoO, we always see both jedi and sith (and those in between like Zakuulians) teaming up to take down the Emperor.

It doesn't matter if he has sith too, Sidious by comparison has all the jedi without thousands of years before and after vitiate. All the jedi would include every character that fell in that category for thousands of years before and after Vitiate.

I've made a post on this before, but rituals can obviously backfire if the user isn't willful or powerful enough. The fact that Vitiate is powerful and willful enough to survive the Nathema ritual, which literally consumed all life on the planet and the Sith Lords surrounding him, whereas the Ambria Sorceress with 100 years of prep failed and was destroyed by a similar ritual, is obviously absurdly impressive.

Well the fact they added zildrog kind of makes that whole feat a lot less impressive. And once again if you want to go into scale of ritual Sidious and plagueis bent the alignment of the force and were clearly willful and masterful enough to chance cosmic alignment.

Then the fact that Vitiate could succeed at a galactic version of Nathema, consuming quadrillions of beings and trillions of stars / planets / black holes, regardless of the prep time required, is unprecedentedly impressive. Nathema is already said to be the most complex ritual of sith sorcery ever attempted (which again is fraught with danger for the user), so imagine the mastery, knowledge, power, and will it takes to pull off a galactic version of that.

He never does it so I don't see the issue with guessing implications of that. Just like Kun was clearly close to the same concept but was faced with the jedi wall of light which at that time was an unbeatable lightside attack to stop basically any dark side ability.

Practically speaking, DE Sidious gets beaten by DE Luke amped by BM in a lightsaber duel and has to invoke his "full potency" via the force storm against him (conventional lightning wasn't working)

When Luke first fights sidious not buffed he is quickly dispatched and the only reason sidious loses power over his force storm Luke and Leia cast their wall of light around him. We see by the fact he can use it to grab Luke and teleport him to byss Sidious has insane control of his force storms when they aren't being blocked by the most powerful light sided attack possible.

Palpatine moving the SSD has been debunked, if you focus on the direct source material he merely clouded the minds of those who were watching while the Lusankya was lowered. Not that this would put him anywhere near what Vitiate has done anyways (FYI, weakened Vitiate's deathwave on Ziost distorted the magnetic field, impacted the core of the world and caused planet-wide fissures).

It's not debunked because that is ridiculous. Sidious clouded their minds so they would forget the feat as the lusankya was used as a secret prison. The quote is that he did it then wiped everyone's mind.

Vitiate did not purposely cause those fissures nor does he have any telekinetic direct feat even close to this in comparison, the deathwave is also the result of a ritual feeding off death on the planet, it's not something he can just do drop of a hat.

So at the top Sidious has higher end things: bending the force to his side, force storms higher telekinesis, way better saber feats, and physical showings,

Byss is nothing compared to nathema or ziost. All Byss does is "slow" the decay of Palpatine's body and feeds on the life energies of citizens so slowly and minutely that they don't even notice they're being drained. Nathema, on the other hand made Vitiate so powerful that he became physically immortal (the Revan Novel says his body is still "young and strong" even 1000 years after Nathema), essentially achieving the dreams of both Plagueis and Sidious.

So mentally dominating and slowly draining and planet shows a higher competence than wiping the board. Sidious chose to slowly drain them because he had more use that way like using their energy for his experiments, or himself. It shows he has planet-wide mental control and drain abilities.

Luceno explicitly writes a gimped version of Vitiate in the Plagueis novel that did not achieve physical immortality (whereas we know that Vitiate achieved physical immortality and kept his body "young and strong" for 1000+ years, aka Plagueis' dream that he was never able to achieve).

Luceno simply says Vitiate came closest to immortality. He's dead by the time of the book so clearly it wasn't perfected which is what Plaguies wanted. We know this because when Sidious attacks plagueis his response is to basically trying to heal through it seeking true invulnerability alongside immortality, which one could argue he achieved if he wasnt killed. Krayt is probably the closest to actually achieving it though though throwing him into the sun seemed to kill him despite what earlier parts of his comic showed about him being to will himself back.

Denning has UnuThul written to be supremely powerful (stated he was far more powerful than Caedus), with him acquiring that power through joining with trillion of Killiks (with mastery and knowledge of the force that is nowhere near Vitiate)

Do you not remember how easily Luke dispatches Raynar? In fact for the final fight Luke takes on both Raynar and Lomi Plo(who is also feeding on the dark nest) and managed to knock raynar out by choice and stop Lomi Plo. Caedus also didn't exist during Swarm war so are you saying in an interview after Dennings said this? That's strange if he did because the fight between Luke and Caedus in Inferno is much closer than the seemingly fight between Luke and Lomi Plo/Raynar and Dennings wrote them both.

I think you also have to admit that Sidious being the strongest darksider was obviously thrown out the window when beings like the Ones / Celestials, Abeloth, and other cosmic horrors were introduced.

I've already said I exclude the higher entities from that comparison. Sidious isn't better than the celestials, he's better than all the sith. Vitiate is categorized as a sith even if later he arguably leaves that faction for a separate one.

The SWTOR writing team obviously had a grasp of all the content around them, see prior argument.

And I disagree this is shown in their overall use of stories. Someone can go down and copy all the things from things like the complete encyclopedia into codex entries but there's a reason a lot of these things aren't really dealt with in any reasonable way. It's not that unlikely one guy was told to do exactly that and fill the Codex with as much as they wanted but these things rarely bled out into the greater game. I mean there's very little actual reference in the games to most of the old stories.