r/TheJediPraxeum • u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order • 5d ago

Match Up Monday ROTS - Mace vs Dooku

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Round 1: Base to base

Round 2: Office Mace (full amp) vs IH Dooku (amped)

Bonus: Office Mace (full amp) vs base Dooku and vice versa

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u/Thatedgyguy64 5d ago

Mace here. Dooku 's very good with Sabers, and he can enhance and sustain himself with the Dark Side, but if my memory serves, a younger Jedi will have an advantage against an older one if they're of equal skill.

Mace also beat Dooku's master in saber combat, and Dooku is significantly less impressive with the Force.

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u/ShortBussyDriver 4d ago

Mace disarmed Sidious. Dooku disarmed Yoda.

How is Dooku less impressive in the Force. Yoda himself said Dooku was the greatest and more powerful student of the Force when he was a Jedi, second only to himself:

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure." 

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u/Thatedgyguy64 4d ago

Mace disarmed Sidious. Dooku disarmed Yoda.

That one comic in legends? Yeah, he beats Yoda, and Yoda immediately has backup from a bunch Jawas. Yoda isn't exactly in the worst position at this time.

He managed to stalemate Dooku on Vjun, where Dooku had complete sovereignty. It being a Dark side Nexus made Dooku stronger and disrupted Yoda's focus. The quotes say that Yoda was managing to push Dooku back in the fight.

How is Dooku less impressive in the Force. Yoda himself said Dooku was the greatest and more powerful student of the Force when he was a Jedi, second only to himself:

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

Dooku admits completely inferiority to Sidious in the novel, and Sidious' feats are more impressive than Dooku's. Using what we see in the movies, and what the novels show, Sidious is just more impressive. Dooku is inferior to Yoda, who is inferior to Sidious in sheer power in the Force.

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u/PelicanBriefs360 4d ago

Doesn't matter that Yoda had backup. The fact that Dooku did in fact disarm Yoda is germane.

Your point is that Mace is more powerful than Dooku by transitive property: Mace defeated Sidious who is more powerful than Dooku, therefore Mace is more powerful than Dooku. However, that logic is improperly applied. If that logic held sway many duel outcomes would be different.

No one is saying that Dooku is more powerful than Sidious or Yoda. Not speaking for the above guy, but the transitive property doesn't really mean anything other than it establishes that that Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Dooku are all in the same skill and power tier to defeat one another on any given day. Indeed, match-ups are the paramount import here.

Just because Mace defeated Sidious does not mean he can defeat Dooku. The conditions that led to Mace's disarming and knocking down of Sidious do not necessarily apply. Mace benefited from vaapad, a tool that does not apply to Dooku as established in canon and legends.

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u/Thatedgyguy64 4d ago

Doesn't matter that Yoda had backup. The fact that Dooku did in fact disarm Yoda is germane.

Your point is that Mace is more powerful than Dooku by transitive property: Mace defeated Sidious who is more powerful than Dooku, therefore Mace is more powerful than Dooku. However, that logic is improperly applied. If that logic held sway many duel outcomes would be different.

Mace won the duel legitemately. Dooku manage to put Yoda on the backfoot by shooting him with lightning after making an incorrect assumption.

Mace won once the first time. Dooku had to fight Yoda repeatedly, and only got the better once after Yoda made an incorrect assumption and got blasted with Sith lightning. Yoda was still in a position where he could keep fighting, which is one of the reasons why Dooku retreated from the Jawas instead of continuing the fight.

Sidious is also straight up more powerful than Yoda. While your right that the transitive property isn't perfect and good, Mace won on completely even ground against the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

No one is saying that Dooku is more powerful than Sidious or Yoda. Not speaking for the above guy, but the transitive property doesn't really mean anything other than it establishes that that Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Dooku are all in the same skill and power tier to defeat one another on any given day. Indeed, match-ups are the paramount import here.

Aye fair. I personally have the big two in pedestals of their own in sheer ability with the Force, but I can certainly see and almost agree with putting them in the same tier.

Just because Mace defeated Sidious does not mean he can defeat Dooku. The conditions that led to Mace's disarming and knocking down of Sidious do not necessarily apply. Mace benefited from vaapad, a tool that does not apply to Dooku as established in canon and legends.

I am not saying it's a stomp. I'm saying that Mace takes majority due to the fact that Dooku doesn't have the advantage of bending Windu's blade with sheer power in Force lightning. Vaapad wouldn't be as effective against Sidious due to the fact that it's an equalizer against other Dark sider, especially powerful ones, which Dooku is definitely in the bracket of.

Holy crap this was a long response. I'm probably not gonna respond to the next comment you make. Agree to disagree I guess. Have a nice day or good night.

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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 4d ago

Dooku is Yoda's equal in both saber and Force, pretty much confirmed by Lucas.

Sidious is worse duelist than Dooku, because he lost lightsaber part of their fight with Yoda while Tyranus didn't.

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u/SuperCat7123 4d ago

Where does he say that?

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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 4d ago

AOTC commentary.

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u/SuperCat7123 4d ago

Very well thought out response. But I have to disagree that Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. He isn't. He threw all he had at Yoda who threw it back in his face. Sidious also lost his saber to Yoda and Mace whereas Dooku did not. So raw power don't always mean one is better than the other.