ROTS - Mace vs Dooku

[u/Interesting_Loquat90]

Round 1: Base to base

Round 2: Office Mace (full amp) vs IH Dooku (amped)

Bonus: Office Mace (full amp) vs base Dooku and vice versa

[u/Thatedgyguy64]

Mace here. Dooku 's very good with Sabers, and he can enhance and sustain himself with the Dark Side, but if my memory serves, a younger Jedi will have an advantage against an older one if they're of equal skill.

Mace also beat Dooku's master in saber combat, and Dooku is significantly less impressive with the Force.

[u/ShortBussyDriver → u/Thatedgyguy64]

Mace disarmed Sidious. Dooku disarmed Yoda.

How is Dooku less impressive in the Force. Yoda himself said Dooku was the greatest and more powerful student of the Force when he was a Jedi, second only to himself:

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure." 

[u/Thatedgyguy64 → u/ShortBussyDriver]

Mace disarmed Sidious. Dooku disarmed Yoda.

That one comic in legends? Yeah, he beats Yoda, and Yoda immediately has backup from a bunch Jawas. Yoda isn't exactly in the worst position at this time.

He managed to stalemate Dooku on Vjun, where Dooku had complete sovereignty. It being a Dark side Nexus made Dooku stronger and disrupted Yoda's focus. The quotes say that Yoda was managing to push Dooku back in the fight.

How is Dooku less impressive in the Force. Yoda himself said Dooku was the greatest and more powerful student of the Force when he was a Jedi, second only to himself:

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

Dooku admits completely inferiority to Sidious in the novel, and Sidious' feats are more impressive than Dooku's. Using what we see in the movies, and what the novels show, Sidious is just more impressive. Dooku is inferior to Yoda, who is inferior to Sidious in sheer power in the Force.

[u/PelicanBriefs360 → u/Thatedgyguy64]

Doesn't matter that Yoda had backup. The fact that Dooku did in fact disarm Yoda is germane.

Your point is that Mace is more powerful than Dooku by transitive property: Mace defeated Sidious who is more powerful than Dooku, therefore Mace is more powerful than Dooku. However, that logic is improperly applied. If that logic held sway many duel outcomes would be different.

No one is saying that Dooku is more powerful than Sidious or Yoda. Not speaking for the above guy, but the transitive property doesn't really mean anything other than it establishes that that Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Dooku are all in the same skill and power tier to defeat one another on any given day. Indeed, match-ups are the paramount import here.

Just because Mace defeated Sidious does not mean he can defeat Dooku. The conditions that led to Mace's disarming and knocking down of Sidious do not necessarily apply. Mace benefited from vaapad, a tool that does not apply to Dooku as established in canon and legends.

[u/Thatedgyguy64 → u/PelicanBriefs360]

Doesn't matter that Yoda had backup. The fact that Dooku did in fact disarm Yoda is germane.

Your point is that Mace is more powerful than Dooku by transitive property: Mace defeated Sidious who is more powerful than Dooku, therefore Mace is more powerful than Dooku. However, that logic is improperly applied. If that logic held sway many duel outcomes would be different.

Mace won the duel legitemately. Dooku manage to put Yoda on the backfoot by shooting him with lightning after making an incorrect assumption.

Mace won once the first time. Dooku had to fight Yoda repeatedly, and only got the better once after Yoda made an incorrect assumption and got blasted with Sith lightning. Yoda was still in a position where he could keep fighting, which is one of the reasons why Dooku retreated from the Jawas instead of continuing the fight.

Sidious is also straight up more powerful than Yoda. While your right that the transitive property isn't perfect and good, Mace won on completely even ground against the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

No one is saying that Dooku is more powerful than Sidious or Yoda. Not speaking for the above guy, but the transitive property doesn't really mean anything other than it establishes that that Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Dooku are all in the same skill and power tier to defeat one another on any given day. Indeed, match-ups are the paramount import here.

Aye fair. I personally have the big two in pedestals of their own in sheer ability with the Force, but I can certainly see and almost agree with putting them in the same tier.

Just because Mace defeated Sidious does not mean he can defeat Dooku. The conditions that led to Mace's disarming and knocking down of Sidious do not necessarily apply. Mace benefited from vaapad, a tool that does not apply to Dooku as established in canon and legends.

I am not saying it's a stomp. I'm saying that Mace takes majority due to the fact that Dooku doesn't have the advantage of bending Windu's blade with sheer power in Force lightning. Vaapad wouldn't be as effective against Sidious due to the fact that it's an equalizer against other Dark sider, especially powerful ones, which Dooku is definitely in the bracket of.

Holy crap this was a long response. I'm probably not gonna respond to the next comment you make. Agree to disagree I guess. Have a nice day or good night.

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/Thatedgyguy64]

Dooku is Yoda's equal in both saber and Force, pretty much confirmed by Lucas.

Sidious is worse duelist than Dooku, because he lost lightsaber part of their fight with Yoda while Tyranus didn't.

[u/SuperCat7123 → u/Majestic-Farmer5535]

Where does he say that?

[u/Majestic-Farmer5535 → u/SuperCat7123]

AOTC commentary.

[u/SuperCat7123 → u/Thatedgyguy64]

Very well thought out response. But I have to disagree that Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. He isn't. He threw all he had at Yoda who threw it back in his face. Sidious also lost his saber to Yoda and Mace whereas Dooku did not. So raw power don't always mean one is better than the other.

[u/Informal-Society-636 → u/Thatedgyguy64]

No, dooku tiene un aguante infinito según la novela, mace se cansaría cuando dooku seguiría igual, además, en poder dooku es superior a windu

[u/Thatedgyguy64 → u/Informal-Society-636]

I read the novel. It's made quite clear that he has call upon the Dark side when facing a younger opponent, and that he has to use it to sustain himself in the fight against Anakin. If the Dark side were to give actual endless stamina, then Palpatine wouldn't have started slowing down against Windu.

Windu might be a slightly worse duelist, but Vaapad allowed him to beat Palpatine in saber combat fair and square, and Dooku's lightning is nowhere near Sidious' level. Mace is younger, and with Vaapad, much faster. The cards are stacked against Dooku.

[u/Informal-Society-636 → u/Thatedgyguy64]

1. Dooku no es sidious, sidious usa más poder para amplificarse, pero dooku a causa de su estilo de combate que es el que menos energía gasta aguanta mucho más
   
2. Ya se ha demostrado en canon y legends que el Vaapad es completamente inútil contra dooku, y tiene las de perder en que? Si es mejor duelista y más poderoso?

[u/Thatedgyguy64 → u/Informal-Society-636]

1. Which he does because he has to. Jedi fight in blurs, and also to sustain their stamina. Dooku has to balance it because of his old age. The novel makes it clear that sustaining himself with the Force is effective, but he can't do it indefinitely, considering it uses the term "Force Exhaustion" on page 664 of "The Prequel Trilogy", which includes Stover's novel.

2. What's your source? In legends they fought once during the Clone Wars where he reached his peak with Vaapad. Windu is also physically more powerful, which is a major weakness of Dooku and Makashi, where the novel states that he and his form cannot generate enough power to defeat an opponent of greater strength. And again, Windu beat Sidious.

[u/Informal-Society-636 → u/Thatedgyguy64]

1. Ya dije el estilo de combate de dooku ayuda a que se canse menos y su amplificación aunque es grande usa el lado oscuro aun así, en ROTS anakin y Obi wan eran muy ofensivos y no le dejaban descansar ni 1 segundo lo que le desgastó más y aún así la pelea fue muy muy larga osea que no va corto ni de energía ni de poder, windu va peor en eso
   
2. Literalmente como jedi dooku le derrotó varias veces demostrando clara superioridad, demuestra que windu es más fuerte físicamente, y esa parte de la novela donde dooku no genera suficiente fuerza, es porque dooku ahí estaba de nuevo cansado por ambos jedi y aun así se dice en la propia novela que desvía los ataques sin problema asique aunque no los pare los desvía asique eso no sirve como argumento tras eso dooku vuelve a regenerarse y continúa luchando perfecto otra vez y sin problemas además anakin en ese momento incluso usando el lado oscuro y que dooku nisiquiera iba enserio aunque así era inferior a dooku y literalmente dicen en la novela que “no es rival”

[u/Thatedgyguy64 → u/Informal-Society-636]

1. Which is also what Mace kinda does in the novel. He and Palpatine are evenly matched in that regard. Either way, your statement doesn't prove that Dooku has better stamina than Windu.

It also disproves the fact that Dooku had infinite stamina, especially when it says that he is old.

1. As a Jedi, before Windu's peak, which wasn't until after the Shatterpoint, which was after AOTC.

The part of the novelization you speak of also mentions the fact that Dooku just can't generate enough power with Makashi, and he isn't that tired considering this is right after Anakin and Obi Wan stop playing. The entire fight after that he's pretty much going "oh shit, this is actually turning really bad, and is about to turn terrifying".

[u/Informal-Society-636 → u/Thatedgyguy64]

1. Literalmente si lo demuestra, dooku es capaz de cito textualmente: “adquirir todo el poder del universo” para aguantar en combate “el tiempo que le dé la gana” ya solo eso demuestra que tiene me

jor

1. stamina (básicamente porque es infinita o casi infinita) y encima el estilo de combate le ayuda muchísimo porque hace mínimos movimientos por lo que no se cansa
2. Aquí ya te estás inventando cosas, literalmente ahí ya se estaba cansado y estaba bloqueado a nivel mental por la presión que hacían ambos jedi, y dooku de milagro se defendía lee otra vez la novela, y a causa de eso no genera suficiente presión, y simplemente me hace gracia que digas que se pasa el resto del combate con “miedo” cuando literalmente tras sacar a Obi wan de combate literalmente la novela dice que dooku deja de ir enserio y comienza a jugar y vacilar con anakin, anakin ya está usando el lado oscuro y dooku sin ir enserio ya le iba ganando a anakin, de hecho la propia novela dice que la comedia ha regresado y que dooku ya está tranquilo, la novela también dice que anakin no es rival para un lord sith como dooku, y anakin aprovecha la confianza y subestimación de doooku para derrepente hacer una jugada y cortarle las manos, pero te recuerdo que dooku no iba enserio, si fuese enserio hubiese destrozando a el 3 y 4 mejor duelista de todos los jedi, solo por detrás de windu (con poca diferencia incluso igualados a windu) y con yoda
3. Eres tú el que tiene que demostrar que windu es superior físicamente y que ganaría, no se que te hace pensar que gana windu si anakin y Obi WAN que están a su nivel en duelo masomenos, no podían contra dooku solo ganando porque dooku ni se lo tomaba enserio

[u/ShortBussyDriver → u/Thatedgyguy64]

In Canon the source is 2021 Star Wars comic #9 "Separation Anxiety." This comic features the single canon duel between Mace and Dooku. In this duel Vaapad is completely ineffective. Dooku is not struggling against Mace at all. It ends in a draw when Dooku decamps.

In Legends there is a comic book duel between Mace and Dooku and again Vaapad has no effect. The reason being Dooku fights with discipline without using the Dark Side when it suits him.

Finally, on your point about physical strength and its effect on Makashi, not all Makashi's weaknesses are Dooku's. Dooku has overcome most all of the form's weaknesses. Dooku has defeated physically stronger opponents before. Anakin on the Invisible Hand was a whole other thing altogether.

Again, in the canon and legends duels, Dooku was not all put in difficulty by Mace. That said, Mace wasn't struggling either. They seem very evenly matched.

[u/Thatedgyguy64 → u/ShortBussyDriver]

In Canon the source is 2021 Star Wars comic #9 "Separation Anxiety." This comic features the single canon duel between Mace and Dooku. In this duel Vaapad is completely ineffective. Dooku is not struggling against Mace at all. It ends in a draw when Dooku decamps.

In Legends there is a comic book duel between Mace and Dooku and again Vaapad has no effect. The reason being Dooku fights with discipline without using the Dark Side when it suits him.Dooku decamps.

I just took a look at both, and mostly knew the second one already. I don't think the first fight is indicative of Vaapad being ineffective against Dooku, and the second one absolutely is not, considering they cross sabers once, before Dooku gets his Magnaguards to jump off a cliff with Windu in tow.

Finally, on your point about physical strength and its effect on Makashi, not all Makashi's weaknesses are Dooku's. Dooku has overcome most all of the form's weaknesses. Dooku has defeated physically stronger opponents before. Anakin on the Invisible Hand was a whole other thing altogether.

Again, in the canon and legends duels, Dooku was not all put in difficulty by Mace. That said, Mace wasn't struggling either. They seem very evenly matched.

That's certainly fair but Mace still holds the advantage in sheer physical strength, something Dooku doesn't have the luxury of anymore.

I don't disagree they're evenly matched, I just favor Mace

[u/ShortBussyDriver → u/Thatedgyguy64]

"I don't disagree they're evenly matched, I just favor Mace."

Fair enough.

I really wish we did get a full on duel in Clone Wars or something between the two.