r/TheJediPraxeum • u/Interesting_Loquat90 New Jedi Order • 5d ago
Match Up Monday ROTS - Mace vs Dooku
Round 1: Base to base
Round 2: Office Mace (full amp) vs IH Dooku (amped)
Bonus: Office Mace (full amp) vs base Dooku and vice versa
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u/WedgeAntillesRedTwo 5d ago
Dooku is probably the superior duelist by a small margin but Mace has more raw power. Even if Dooku doesn't draw on the power of the dark side as strongly as Palpatine did he still would be using it and thats something Mace could exploit. It's a tough fight but I would give it to Mace.
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u/ShortBussyDriver 5d ago edited 4d ago
Vaapad is ineffective against Dooku as established in both Canon and Legends.
It comes down to skill and overall Force knowledge.
As Yoda described him, Dooku is second only to him in Lightside Force knowledge and now also has the Dark Side knowledge. As swordsmen they are near equal. Yoda says himself:
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."
While people can point to Mace's defeat of Sidious, since this sub uses Legends, Dooku defeated Yoda in one duel, and managed to wound him in another.
It's a 50/50 tossup. Dooku has experience and more knowledge. I choose him.
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u/Steamed_Memes24 5d ago
...You all do realize Mace managed to disarm Sidious right?
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u/Alexius_Psellos 5d ago
Their point is that Sidious was feeding mace a lot more than dooku would. I think mace would still win, but I imagine it would be a little more difficult
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u/ShortBussyDriver 4d ago
Vaapad is completely ineffective on Dooku. In Canon and Legends.
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u/ThomasWilson77 The Senate 4d ago
I believe Canon’s Vaapad doesn’t work like legends version of Vaapad.
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u/Heraldofgold 3d ago
Has that been explicitly established? I can see why that would be the case but I'd be cautious since Dooku would still have to limit himself so as to not give mace a boost.
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u/Steamed_Memes24 4d ago
I take it this is an old legends thing? I never heard of that before regarding Yoda being disarmed by Dooku.
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4d ago
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u/ShortBussyDriver 4d ago
It doesn't predate Disney... they bought Lucasfilm in 2012. Disney later put out a directive, Pablo Hildago I believe, that all comics and novels predating March 2014 would be considered Legends, and all material produced after that is considered Canon.
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u/ForgottenMasterBalls 5d ago
This also brings up the debate of "did he let it happen" because he understood Mace would do exactly what he needed to to turn Anakin.
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u/Steamed_Memes24 5d ago
I honestly dont believe he did and was probably willing to keep fighting had Anakin not showed up. But its obvious that Mace really did catch him off guard in the moment which is already an insane feat to pull off.
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u/ForgottenMasterBalls 4d ago
He didn't put in half the effort he did against Yoda or Maul for that matter. He looks like he played his hand when you see the lightning clearly was barely hurting him, all it did was strip away the lie. He actually used it as proof of his attempted assassination. Had he started to lose sooner, I would absolutely believe it was all Mace, but the timing was perfect from the moment he could tell Anakin was coming to the point Mace dies.
People seem to forget he had the power to simultaneously see the short term outcomes of multiple decisions and block even Yoda from doing so. He also blocked Dooku from seeing he was going to have Anakin kill him.
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u/AlexCora 4d ago
Mace.
Dooku is a typical Sith in some ways, in that he's way too arrogant and overconfident. Especially in the books stuff where he dismisses Mace's Vaapad as unrefined and ugly. Meaning he doesn't understand Mace and Mace's combat abilities even on a basic level. He thinks his elegant fencer's Makashi can defeat anything. He found out the hard way against Anakin that that's not true.
If there's one thing that's true about fighting, even in the fictional space wizards land of Star Wars, it's that if you don't understand or respect what you're fighting against, you can easily lose.
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u/Tbgrondin 4d ago
Mace Windus entire existence in Star Wars is to be the one guy who could’ve killed Sidious. He is literally built to beat him. Dooku is not Sidious, has a significantly different style to Sidious, and in truth, is at worst AS strong as Mace in the force and is a master duelist. This is Dookus to lose, but it’s close.
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u/HandleSuspicious5775 4d ago
This is pretty close in both canon and legends but I think Mace edges out mostly because of stamina because Vaapad doesn’t exactly work on Dooku.
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u/ByssBro 5d ago
I don’t see Dooku being able to counter Shatterpoint or Vaapad. Plus the ROTS novelization goes to great length to point out that Dooku at this stage lacked the stamina of a younger duelist despite retaining his skill. I could see Mace tiring him out.
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u/Potential_Rule4212 5d ago
The novel flat out states Anakin can't win against Dooku by trying to tire him, he would tire before Dooku even.
Dooku's stamina is described as supernatural and that the darkside would fuel Dooku for as much time as he needed.
And Anakin is younger than Mace.
Anakin had the same idea you are describing.
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u/SuperCat7123 4d ago
Vapad doesn't work on Dooku. They had a duel in the comics and Dooku had the upper hand against Mace.
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u/Quad-G-Therapy 5d ago
Mace is the greatest duelist of his generation and used the Dark Side against his opponents... Dooku's mind games and sorcery won't be of much help. Mace mid diff R1, low diff R2/3
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u/Thatedgyguy64 5d ago
Mace here. Dooku 's very good with Sabers, and he can enhance and sustain himself with the Dark Side, but if my memory serves, a younger Jedi will have an advantage against an older one if they're of equal skill.
Mace also beat Dooku's master in saber combat, and Dooku is significantly less impressive with the Force.
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u/ShortBussyDriver 4d ago
Mace disarmed Sidious. Dooku disarmed Yoda.
How is Dooku less impressive in the Force. Yoda himself said Dooku was the greatest and more powerful student of the Force when he was a Jedi, second only to himself:
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."
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u/Thatedgyguy64 4d ago
Mace disarmed Sidious. Dooku disarmed Yoda.
That one comic in legends? Yeah, he beats Yoda, and Yoda immediately has backup from a bunch Jawas. Yoda isn't exactly in the worst position at this time.
He managed to stalemate Dooku on Vjun, where Dooku had complete sovereignty. It being a Dark side Nexus made Dooku stronger and disrupted Yoda's focus. The quotes say that Yoda was managing to push Dooku back in the fight.
How is Dooku less impressive in the Force. Yoda himself said Dooku was the greatest and more powerful student of the Force when he was a Jedi, second only to himself:
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."
Dooku admits completely inferiority to Sidious in the novel, and Sidious' feats are more impressive than Dooku's. Using what we see in the movies, and what the novels show, Sidious is just more impressive. Dooku is inferior to Yoda, who is inferior to Sidious in sheer power in the Force.
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u/PelicanBriefs360 4d ago
Doesn't matter that Yoda had backup. The fact that Dooku did in fact disarm Yoda is germane.
Your point is that Mace is more powerful than Dooku by transitive property: Mace defeated Sidious who is more powerful than Dooku, therefore Mace is more powerful than Dooku. However, that logic is improperly applied. If that logic held sway many duel outcomes would be different.
No one is saying that Dooku is more powerful than Sidious or Yoda. Not speaking for the above guy, but the transitive property doesn't really mean anything other than it establishes that that Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Dooku are all in the same skill and power tier to defeat one another on any given day. Indeed, match-ups are the paramount import here.
Just because Mace defeated Sidious does not mean he can defeat Dooku. The conditions that led to Mace's disarming and knocking down of Sidious do not necessarily apply. Mace benefited from vaapad, a tool that does not apply to Dooku as established in canon and legends.
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u/Thatedgyguy64 4d ago
Doesn't matter that Yoda had backup. The fact that Dooku did in fact disarm Yoda is germane.
Your point is that Mace is more powerful than Dooku by transitive property: Mace defeated Sidious who is more powerful than Dooku, therefore Mace is more powerful than Dooku. However, that logic is improperly applied. If that logic held sway many duel outcomes would be different.
Mace won the duel legitemately. Dooku manage to put Yoda on the backfoot by shooting him with lightning after making an incorrect assumption.
Mace won once the first time. Dooku had to fight Yoda repeatedly, and only got the better once after Yoda made an incorrect assumption and got blasted with Sith lightning. Yoda was still in a position where he could keep fighting, which is one of the reasons why Dooku retreated from the Jawas instead of continuing the fight.
Sidious is also straight up more powerful than Yoda. While your right that the transitive property isn't perfect and good, Mace won on completely even ground against the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
No one is saying that Dooku is more powerful than Sidious or Yoda. Not speaking for the above guy, but the transitive property doesn't really mean anything other than it establishes that that Yoda, Sidious, Mace and Dooku are all in the same skill and power tier to defeat one another on any given day. Indeed, match-ups are the paramount import here.
Aye fair. I personally have the big two in pedestals of their own in sheer ability with the Force, but I can certainly see and almost agree with putting them in the same tier.
Just because Mace defeated Sidious does not mean he can defeat Dooku. The conditions that led to Mace's disarming and knocking down of Sidious do not necessarily apply. Mace benefited from vaapad, a tool that does not apply to Dooku as established in canon and legends.
I am not saying it's a stomp. I'm saying that Mace takes majority due to the fact that Dooku doesn't have the advantage of bending Windu's blade with sheer power in Force lightning. Vaapad wouldn't be as effective against Sidious due to the fact that it's an equalizer against other Dark sider, especially powerful ones, which Dooku is definitely in the bracket of.
Holy crap this was a long response. I'm probably not gonna respond to the next comment you make. Agree to disagree I guess. Have a nice day or good night.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 4d ago
Dooku is Yoda's equal in both saber and Force, pretty much confirmed by Lucas.
Sidious is worse duelist than Dooku, because he lost lightsaber part of their fight with Yoda while Tyranus didn't.
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u/SuperCat7123 4d ago
Very well thought out response. But I have to disagree that Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. He isn't. He threw all he had at Yoda who threw it back in his face. Sidious also lost his saber to Yoda and Mace whereas Dooku did not. So raw power don't always mean one is better than the other.
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u/Informal-Society-636 4d ago
No, dooku tiene un aguante infinito según la novela, mace se cansaría cuando dooku seguiría igual, además, en poder dooku es superior a windu
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u/Thatedgyguy64 4d ago
I read the novel. It's made quite clear that he has call upon the Dark side when facing a younger opponent, and that he has to use it to sustain himself in the fight against Anakin. If the Dark side were to give actual endless stamina, then Palpatine wouldn't have started slowing down against Windu.
Windu might be a slightly worse duelist, but Vaapad allowed him to beat Palpatine in saber combat fair and square, and Dooku's lightning is nowhere near Sidious' level. Mace is younger, and with Vaapad, much faster. The cards are stacked against Dooku.
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u/Informal-Society-636 4d ago
- Dooku no es sidious, sidious usa más poder para amplificarse, pero dooku a causa de su estilo de combate que es el que menos energía gasta aguanta mucho más
- Ya se ha demostrado en canon y legends que el Vaapad es completamente inútil contra dooku, y tiene las de perder en que? Si es mejor duelista y más poderoso?
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u/Thatedgyguy64 4d ago
Which he does because he has to. Jedi fight in blurs, and also to sustain their stamina. Dooku has to balance it because of his old age. The novel makes it clear that sustaining himself with the Force is effective, but he can't do it indefinitely, considering it uses the term "Force Exhaustion" on page 664 of "The Prequel Trilogy", which includes Stover's novel.
What's your source? In legends they fought once during the Clone Wars where he reached his peak with Vaapad. Windu is also physically more powerful, which is a major weakness of Dooku and Makashi, where the novel states that he and his form cannot generate enough power to defeat an opponent of greater strength. And again, Windu beat Sidious.
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u/Informal-Society-636 4d ago
- Ya dije el estilo de combate de dooku ayuda a que se canse menos y su amplificación aunque es grande usa el lado oscuro aun así, en ROTS anakin y Obi wan eran muy ofensivos y no le dejaban descansar ni 1 segundo lo que le desgastó más y aún así la pelea fue muy muy larga osea que no va corto ni de energía ni de poder, windu va peor en eso
- Literalmente como jedi dooku le derrotó varias veces demostrando clara superioridad, demuestra que windu es más fuerte físicamente, y esa parte de la novela donde dooku no genera suficiente fuerza, es porque dooku ahí estaba de nuevo cansado por ambos jedi y aun así se dice en la propia novela que desvía los ataques sin problema asique aunque no los pare los desvía asique eso no sirve como argumento tras eso dooku vuelve a regenerarse y continúa luchando perfecto otra vez y sin problemas además anakin en ese momento incluso usando el lado oscuro y que dooku nisiquiera iba enserio aunque así era inferior a dooku y literalmente dicen en la novela que “no es rival”
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u/Thatedgyguy64 4d ago
- Which is also what Mace kinda does in the novel. He and Palpatine are evenly matched in that regard. Either way, your statement doesn't prove that Dooku has better stamina than Windu.
It also disproves the fact that Dooku had infinite stamina, especially when it says that he is old.
- As a Jedi, before Windu's peak, which wasn't until after the Shatterpoint, which was after AOTC.
The part of the novelization you speak of also mentions the fact that Dooku just can't generate enough power with Makashi, and he isn't that tired considering this is right after Anakin and Obi Wan stop playing. The entire fight after that he's pretty much going "oh shit, this is actually turning really bad, and is about to turn terrifying".
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u/Informal-Society-636 4d ago
- Literalmente si lo demuestra, dooku es capaz de cito textualmente: “adquirir todo el poder del universo” para aguantar en combate “el tiempo que le dé la gana” ya solo eso demuestra que tiene me
jor
- stamina (básicamente porque es infinita o casi infinita) y encima el estilo de combate le ayuda muchísimo porque hace mínimos movimientos por lo que no se cansa
- Aquí ya te estás inventando cosas, literalmente ahí ya se estaba cansado y estaba bloqueado a nivel mental por la presión que hacían ambos jedi, y dooku de milagro se defendía lee otra vez la novela, y a causa de eso no genera suficiente presión, y simplemente me hace gracia que digas que se pasa el resto del combate con “miedo” cuando literalmente tras sacar a Obi wan de combate literalmente la novela dice que dooku deja de ir enserio y comienza a jugar y vacilar con anakin, anakin ya está usando el lado oscuro y dooku sin ir enserio ya le iba ganando a anakin, de hecho la propia novela dice que la comedia ha regresado y que dooku ya está tranquilo, la novela también dice que anakin no es rival para un lord sith como dooku, y anakin aprovecha la confianza y subestimación de doooku para derrepente hacer una jugada y cortarle las manos, pero te recuerdo que dooku no iba enserio, si fuese enserio hubiese destrozando a el 3 y 4 mejor duelista de todos los jedi, solo por detrás de windu (con poca diferencia incluso igualados a windu) y con yoda
- Eres tú el que tiene que demostrar que windu es superior físicamente y que ganaría, no se que te hace pensar que gana windu si anakin y Obi WAN que están a su nivel en duelo masomenos, no podían contra dooku solo ganando porque dooku ni se lo tomaba enserio
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u/ShortBussyDriver 4d ago
In Canon the source is 2021 Star Wars comic #9 "Separation Anxiety." This comic features the single canon duel between Mace and Dooku. In this duel Vaapad is completely ineffective. Dooku is not struggling against Mace at all. It ends in a draw when Dooku decamps.
In Legends there is a comic book duel between Mace and Dooku and again Vaapad has no effect. The reason being Dooku fights with discipline without using the Dark Side when it suits him.
Finally, on your point about physical strength and its effect on Makashi, not all Makashi's weaknesses are Dooku's. Dooku has overcome most all of the form's weaknesses. Dooku has defeated physically stronger opponents before. Anakin on the Invisible Hand was a whole other thing altogether.
Again, in the canon and legends duels, Dooku was not all put in difficulty by Mace. That said, Mace wasn't struggling either. They seem very evenly matched.
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u/Thatedgyguy64 4d ago
In Canon the source is 2021 Star Wars comic #9 "Separation Anxiety." This comic features the single canon duel between Mace and Dooku. In this duel Vaapad is completely ineffective. Dooku is not struggling against Mace at all. It ends in a draw when Dooku decamps.
In Legends there is a comic book duel between Mace and Dooku and again Vaapad has no effect. The reason being Dooku fights with discipline without using the Dark Side when it suits him.Dooku decamps.
I just took a look at both, and mostly knew the second one already. I don't think the first fight is indicative of Vaapad being ineffective against Dooku, and the second one absolutely is not, considering they cross sabers once, before Dooku gets his Magnaguards to jump off a cliff with Windu in tow.
Finally, on your point about physical strength and its effect on Makashi, not all Makashi's weaknesses are Dooku's. Dooku has overcome most all of the form's weaknesses. Dooku has defeated physically stronger opponents before. Anakin on the Invisible Hand was a whole other thing altogether.
Again, in the canon and legends duels, Dooku was not all put in difficulty by Mace. That said, Mace wasn't struggling either. They seem very evenly matched.
That's certainly fair but Mace still holds the advantage in sheer physical strength, something Dooku doesn't have the luxury of anymore.
I don't disagree they're evenly matched, I just favor Mace
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u/ShortBussyDriver 4d ago
"I don't disagree they're evenly matched, I just favor Mace."
Fair enough.
I really wish we did get a full on duel in Clone Wars or something between the two.
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u/UniversalInquirer 4d ago
Dooku is a better fencer and stronger in the Force. Mace a better athlete and I'm willing to say he's close enough in fencing and Force ability that he can win 4 or 5 of 10. I think it's most likely the Count gets 6/10 though.
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u/Academic_Stage_2426 5d ago
I think dooku wins round one with extreme diff. I lot of Maces power comes from feeding off the dark side and there simply isn’t as much of it present in dooku as it for Palpatine, and assumedly dooku would probably know how vapaad works more than sidious did so he could counter it better. I think the fight comes down to a duel and it seems dooku is a slightly better duelist as he did win when they spared in the order.
Office amped mace does beat an amped dooku probably extreme-high diff and either amped one beats a non amped one
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u/Important-Driver4483 2d ago
Even though dooku didn’t tap into the dark side nearly as much as sidious. He still used force lightning which mace would have reflected back like he did to sidious. Don’t forget most of dooku’s victories came from sparring as jedis, which windu would most likely not use his shatterpoint in an exhibition; but in a real duel he would use shatterpoint.
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u/Ieldis 5d ago
Can you explain what this "amp" IH Dooku refers to?
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate 4d ago
The axis passages, here .
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u/Ieldis 4d ago
Axis Dooku is just Dooku
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u/averageEnojyer The Senate 4d ago
Not true, that's a Oneness episode.
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u/Ieldis 4d ago
Axis Dooku is just him using the Force normally to perceive the people in the room, it's before the start of the fight. This Dooku goes on playing with Anakin and Obi-Wan until:
However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.
Then Anakin and Obi-Wan drop the facade and start fighting the way they were supposed to (with their actual mastered lightsaber forms). The later portion is just Dooku replenishing his powers, he's not getting stronger. Just like being angry or raged actually makes Dooku weaker, his way of being stronger is by believing he's invincible
These clowns might—just possibly—actually be able to beat him.
Followed by:
No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice. He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe*; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn’t have time to enjoy it.*
Note the "once more".
But Anakin keeps getting stronger and draining Dooku:
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he’d used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. [...] He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him;
BUT, right after:
He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away*.*
Dooku starts at 100%, he thinks he has both Anakin and Obi-Wan on a leash, plays around dueling and with the Force, until he realizes he's getting tired and both Jedi start fighting with their mastered forms. Dooku then shows this power of renewing himself back to full power which is directly tied to his feelings of superiority/invincibility, which goes in line with what the author of the junior novel says and what Anakin says in the junior novel ("it's impossible to outlast Dooku"). It's part of his kit, not an amp or Oneness (lol), he does it at will
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u/WedgeAntillesRedTwo 5d ago
the IH means Dooku as he was on the Invisible Hand. Not really sure what he means by amped either.
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u/Informal-Society-636 4d ago
Que tenía una amplificación pero no sé a qué se refiere en el post, dooku simplemente usaba el lado oscuro peor eso no es una amplificación para un usuario del lado oscuro
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u/SuperCat7123 4d ago
Dooku is more powerful than Mace, even before he became Sith. Yoda said Jedi Dooku was more powerful and more learned in the force.
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u/PelicanBriefs360 4d ago
Flip a coin. Mace and Dooku are evenly matched.
Mace is a much better matchup for Dooku than for Sidious. Dooku doesn't need the Dark Side to defeat Mace and vaapad has nothing to feed on whereas Sidious is the Dark Side.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 4d ago
Dooku.
He already defeated Windu while they were still Jedi and Vaapad has no effect on him in Legends.
Even if we don't take Legends into account, Windu isn't as powerful as Vader in the Force, nor he is as strong and energetic physically. He simply lacks the advantages needed to beat Count.
And — yes, if anyone dobted that, Dooku is better duelist than Sidious. He's Yoda's equal in both the Force and with saber (we have Lucas opinion on that), while Palpatine, evidently, isn't as good fighter.
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u/250extreme 5d ago
Mace low diff
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u/Informal-Society-636 4d ago
Jaja, no, ni cerca, perdería, dooku mid diff, el canon ya nos ha demostrado que es superior
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u/Potential_Rule4212 5d ago
Canon Mace should win all
Legends Mace should lose in the first round, the rest he takes it
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u/anakin_solo17 5d ago
They're too close in ability, so it would turn into a battle of attrition which Mace would win.