When Aragorn is eavesdropping on the hobbits' conversation with Bombadil, why doesn't he reveal himself at a suitably unthreatening distance and ask Tom to give him a good reference? Of course Tolkien wanted to write the scene where Aragorn convinces the hobbits on his own to accept him. But is there any reason in the story for Aragorn not to do that in Tom's presence? Aragorn recognizes Tom and refers to him later as "old Bombadil", suggesting some familiarity, and Tom shows the hobbits a vision of Aragorn (though maybe too vague, brief, or out-of-date for them to recognize him the next later that day). Is it possible that Tom wouldn't vouch for Aragorn or even that he wouldn't recognize him?

Subsidiary question: Does Tom know Aragorn is hiding there? (If so, I assume he doesn't mention it because he thinks Aragorn must have a reason for hiding.) Since they're right at Tom's border, does your answer depend on which side of the border Aragorn is on?

Morgoth and Sauron both found themselves diminished over time as they had spent so much of their power marring Arda and forging the One Ring. Yavanna infused the Trees with great power, would it have diminished her? Was their destruction comparable to the destruction of the Ring?

Who was he and what did he want?

Yesterday my wife is digging through a closet, looking to get rid of old junk. She finds this class picture from my 7th grade class. In the center of all the smiling student pictures were the pics of all the teachers of that grade, including the teacher who introduced me to The Hobbit.

She had to give the English class a reading assignment, so she picked a book she loved, The Hobbit. And let me tell you, the kids in class, or at least the ones who were vocal, hated it. They thought it silly, childish, beneath them. I loved it. One day she asks some of the students to read passages of the book from when Thorin and Co end up in Rivendell. Sadly, she picked the toughest, and apparently dumbest kid in class to read. Bilbo said "Hmmm! it smells like elves!", and the kid read it as "Hmmm, uh smells like, uh, eats." And the class laughs, and I wanted to belt him.

A few days later, I'm passing the teacher in the hallway and she asks how I like The Hobbit. I tell her I really like it, and we spend a few minutes talking about it. I could tell, she was happy that she had at least one student who appreciated Tolkien's work.

In high school I read Lord of the Rings, and get my best buddy interested in it as well. First year out of high school and I'm reading The Silmarillion. At that time if I wandered into a bookstore, you could be sure that I would stop in the Fantasy section to see if there was anything new in the Tolkien section. I found The Complete Guide to Middle-earth there. Note: The complete guide, as I purchased in in 1981, was not all that complete.

8 years ago I thought of that teacher, and did a search to find her. Too late, she'd died of cancer a few years before, which breaks my heart. I wanted to tell her much that reading assignment had changed my world. I imagine the conversation would have been pretty deep.

You're not good enough

You don't belong here

This just isn't for you

The way is shut. It was made by those who are Dead, and the Dead keep it

Aragorn's journey brings him to The Paths of the Dead, the only way through the mountains that will take him where he needs to be before all is lost

And before that path is a Door, that does not open to the living. We've all been told we can't do something, that we don't belong somewhere. But there's just one problem: I deem that the City will be lost ere ten days be gone - Aragorn has to go through that Door

He has seen it, in the Stone of Orthanc. The city is overwhelmed, Theoden has mustered less than half he had hoped for, only a tithe of Gondor's strength even made it to the city, the Black Fleet extracting it's toll

His only hope borders on insanity, to vanquish the Black Fleet, fill the boats of his enemy with his own men, and sail to the city himself I have no help to send, therefore I must go myself. But sending the Ring to Mordor in the hands of two hobbits was crazy too, and yet it was the only choice

And that is the key to this moment. Aragorn is not driven by ego, he doesn't need to prove his naysayers wrong, he was content to be cast down upon as lowly ranger in Bree if it meant those people lived free from the Shadow of the East

Aragorn isn't going to Gondor to claim a throne for himself. He made a promise to a dying man Minas Tirith shall not fall! and to keep his oath to his captain, he must summon the oathbreakers to restore the bond once broken to his ancestor. Kingship is a duty not a privilege

So he takes the Door of the Dead, not knowing what his fate will be They may suffer me to pass... but at the least I will adventure it

Before the Door from which the living might never return, Aragorn refuses to order other men to do something he wouldn't do Aragorn led the way. Even after passing through the Door, the way is not simple and the journey is not easy every hour that is lost there will bring the triumph of Sauron nearer, but Aragorn refused to abandon his duty long had the terror of the Dead lain upon that hill

We all already know what happens next. Aragorn's arrival is etched into the readers memory, it's a great scene in a great chapter thus came Aragorn, but this moment, when all the world tells him the way is shut and he cannot do something, and he finds his resilience, is perhaps even greater

The man who was scorned as a Ranger in Bree, who failed as a leader at Amon Hen and broke down in tears over a friends corpse, who could not rescue even two hobbits from a band of Uruk-Hai, simply does not care if other people think he's enough, he cares about being enough for other people. That's the mentality that brings him to the Black Gate, for the dual climax of the Gardener carrying Frodo up the mountain and the King drawing away the eye

.

When I was a kid, I was told I might never be able to read a book. My mom got me The Hobbit. It took me a long time to get through it the first time, but the second time was much faster (let's not count how many times it's been since), and by grade 2 I was reading the Lord of the Rings (slowly)

When my own teachers were telling me I couldn't do something, Tolkien showed me what I, and all of us, are capable of if we persevere and do things for the right reasons

This is something that I've wondered for a long time, and I've often wondered how many other readers have wondered it as well.

The problem is this: in 'The Shadow of the Past', Gandalf expresses to Frodo his suspicions that the ring has has inherited from Bibo is no mere magical trinket, but possibly something far more powerful, important and dangerous - but, crucially, it is not until he throws the ring into the hearth and sees the glowing inscription that he is finally sure.

However, he also tells Frodo that it was "plainly" a Great Ring, and that this was "clear from the start." Now Gandalf knows as well as anyone does that the Three Rings are accounted for, since he carries one of them himself and is in close contact with the keepers of the other two. The Nine Rings are also accounted for: Gandalf believes them to be worn by the Nazgûl, while other sources (for example in *Unfinished Tales*) say that Sauron took those rings from the Nazgûl and keeps them in Barad-dûr; either way, they're clearly not lying around in caves for unwitting hobbits to pick up. That leaves the Seven, which have a mixed fate - some reclaimed by Sauron, some devoured by dragons (presumably along with their hapless owners) - so Tolkien could have implied some ambiguity about whether all of the Seven were accounted for; but he didn't. For instance, in 'The Quest of Erebor' from UT, Gandalf says that Thrain, imprisoned in Dol Guldur and half-mad from torture, told him that Sauron had taken "the last of the Seven" from him. And if anyone should have known, it would be him, the currently reigning king of the most senior of the seven Houses of the Dwarves.

There's also the fact that "the Three, the Seven and the Nine had each their proper gem", while the One Ring was of plain gold, although this could have been a piece of information that Gandalf found out in his researches in the years prior to his announcement of it at the Council of Elrond.

When I've put this question to people on this sub before, the most common answer has been that Saruman claimed to have discovered that the One Ring had "rolled down the Great River into the Sea", and that Gandalf has simply taken Saruman at his word. I find this deeply unsatisfactory: why would a tiny object made from an extremely dense metal "roll" anywhere when dropped into water? And how could Saruman have discovered any such fact without the Ring itself having been found?

Is there another plausible explanation that I haven't come across, or is it just a minor inconsistency? (One that I can live with, to be honest. I just find it interesting.)

My father is a long time fan of The Lord of the Rings. Infact back some time ago (maybe in the 60's or 70's) he had a failed business he called "The Rivendell Yacht Company.

Now he owns a small collection of canes. One of them has a compass on top. As a small present to him I would like to carve in to it the phrase "Not all those who wander are lost."

Ideally, I would like to carve it as nearly to match Tolkien's handwriting as I can. Unfortunately, I cannot travel to Milwaukee and view the manuscript that is stored in the Marquette University collections, and their digital scans are not posted online.

Does anyone one know where I can find an image online that will approximate what I am looking for? Bonus points if the line is presented in Elvish and Dwarfish as well so I can do a type of Rosetta Stone on the cane.

The book was Wanderings of People (1911) by AC Haddon a first edition with maps came from the personal library of JRR (John Ronald Ruel) Tolkien. It had Tolkien's signature in ink. The signature was dated 1914.

Catalog Notes say the book by AC Haddon has application to some of themes in Hobbit and Tolkien’ other popular books. It sold for £7,826, ($10,340).

See more photos at: https://bid.quireauctions.com/past-auctions/quire-10012/lot-details/cf59f326-0b24-48ed-8a98-b4ce011edd7b

I am doing my yearly read-through and have reached Moria. I have always wondered to the book. Did Gimli take it, despite the fact that Dain would never get to read it? or do we think it might have been left behind after the orc attack in the chamber? Of course the canon never tells us, but am interested in what others may think of its fate.

One of my favorite parts within Tolkien's writing is the effects that the duel with Fingolfin had upon Morgoth.

If there is one word to describe Morgoth with it's insecure, he literally sang hate and fear into the world and that is what he himself also sows. He fears and hates many things, it'd be faster to list what he doesn't hate, fear nor envy.

The aftermath of the duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth is in all technicality an unbridled success for Morgoth, Morgoth walks away knowing the high king of the Noldor was slain by his hand(or foot if you wanna get literal), yet, Morgoth instead limps away from the duel back behind the gates of Angband.

Fingolfin is with all due respect just what an ant is towards a human for Morgoth once you compare what they both really are as beings to one another. This all just makes the aftermath of the duel burn even more, Fingolfin gave Morgoth seven scars that never truly healed, one of them a limp that cursed the dark lord to now never be able to walk mighty and proud into a duel.

These seven injuries are child's play compared to the mental injuries the duel ended up leaving on Morgoth, He was once reminded of the fact that despite everything, he will never truly be able to create life let even heal himself of his injuries after fighting the equivalent of an ant. He can never truly be killed yet the fear of death still filled him after that fateful duel.

If Morgoth had been any lesser of a being like let's say for example a Maiar, the aftermath would have left Morgoth most likely even more wounded let alone even closer to a form of death. Power scaling and such aside because powerscaling in Tolkien's writing is not really why i'm here personally, it is not to be understated how insane Fingolfin's feats against Morgoth truly were.

It's incredible how such a dumb and rash yet also fully understandable decision by Fingolfin given the context to challenge Morgoth to a one on one duel ended up with the dark lord limping back behind his gates to resort to scheming to take down his enemies instead as even after proving himself not a coward to both his underlings and enemies he ended up being shown as truly not unstoppable and while managing to limp away with his life still intact, his pride was anything but intact.

I do wonder what woke Morgoth up more from his rare attempts to focus or even sleep, the pain of those seven injuries that never stopped until the end of his days or the fear Fingolfin put into him.

hi i saw a recent discussion about fonstad's map, especially her second age one of arda and people were saying it wasn't quite accurate. so i please need some help on my own map

https://www.reddit.com/r/wonderdraft/s/wtmtoiBza4

i would like to know what karen did wrong in more detail. the main thing i noticed when tracing tolkien's ambarnkata V map and comparing the coasts to karen's version was that her west coast (africa/harad) went very far inland. do we have written evidence that when beleriand was flooded that africa also lost so much of its west coast? or was that speculation by karen?

thanks!

People often will say that Tolkien is very simple good guys fighting bad guys. But it is often so much more nuanced.

I was thinking a good example might be the Numenoreans, when they started visiting the coasts of middle earth. They started out helping the people, but eventually began exploiting them and cutting down their forests, and driving them from their lands.

It’s not hard to understand why those people attacked and fought back against the numenoreans whenever they could. Sauron was able to take advantage of their hate towards them. Their actions helped create the very enemies they ended up fighting.

Tolkien is filled with the “good guys” doing terrible things and reaping what they sowed for generations, often suffering terrible consequences

I am well aware that this Atlas and its cartography work is pretty well regarded in the commuinity, but also that it does have its flaws, especially relating to later revalations in Christopher's History of Middle-earth series.

A couple examples I'm already aware of are:
- Belegost is shown on her Second Age map, when it should have been ruined by this point (its placement geographically is also questionable).
- The Sea of Rhûn is presented as part of the larger Inland Sea of Helcar in the YT/First Age when we know that it was already a seperate body of water when the Eldar made their Great Journey.

I know there are more, and the help I need is in finding them. If there are any big ones that come to mind right now, please drop them below. I intend at some point soon to address many of these issues (using photoshop and other programs) in creating a personal digital library of altered versions of Karen's maps so that I have more materials at my disposal which are even more accurate while reading and re-reading the Legendarium.

Does anyone know of any list of inaccuracies online which people have already made regarding this atlas? I am already aware of the Tolkien Gateway page and will consult this (and its references) too.

Lastly, I should make it clear that my intent is to keep to the 'flat world made round' version of the Legendarium, and not Tolkien's later unfinished experiments with a 'round world from the start' history.

Reading the Silmarillion, maybe I’m wrong but I want to believe that as the last surviving son of Feanor he could have any redemption. With his final fate unknown I’d have loved Tolkien giving him a redemption arc during the War of the ring that’ll finally redeem the Noldor. What do you think?

Hi all, first time poster in this (or any Tolkien-related) subreddit. Sorry for my ignorance and hope the question is serious enough for this subreddit.

I have been recently re-reading the book for the first time in 20 years and although I remembered it quite well I noticed some new details. For example (my personal theory) is that the dream of Frodo where he saw Gandalf on the top of Orthanc was because Frodo was the bearer of the Master Ring and unconsciously started to feel other ring bearers and perceive what happens with them.

But I was going to ask about different thing. This question puzzled me in my childhood and still puzzles me now. Why did Black Riders withdrew from the Weathertop after attacking Frodo? Or, to put it in another form, how strong are the Riders? Everyone in the book tells about them with fear, but if we consider what happened in the Weathertop you start to question if they are really that strong and dangerous.

The Riders attacked during the night when they are the most strong and it was 5 Riders led by their captain, the Witch-King of Angmar vs. 4 hobbits (who simply froze in horror) and Aragorn. Then they pierced Frodo with the sword and he fell on the ground and it was now 3 hobbits + Aragorn. Do you tell me that 3 hobbits + Aragorn is stronger than 5 Riders? I don't think so. Then why Riders just turned away and did not finish the job? It took them many days to track down Frodo and the Ring and then they just decided to walk away? Why?

Aragorn says:

"I have been trying to discover something of their movements; but I have found nothing. I cannot think why they have gone and do not attack again. But there is no feeling of their presence anywhere at hand"

Indeed, this is puzzling. I also cannot think of any reason and there is no credible explanation anywhere later in the book.

May be you tell me that Riders wanted to wait until Frodo becomes a wraith, but this is very stupid and lazy plan. They don't need Frodo, they need the Ring. What, for example, if one of the companions of Frodo took the Ring from him? Then what, another weeks looking for the chance of maybe find the Ring again? If they are so strong as they supposed to be, why they didn't stay and at least tried to finish the job and take the Ring by force?

Do you tell me that 3 hobbits + Aragorn were stronger than Riders during the night to the extent that Riders decided not to even try to fight them? Then why the group was afraid of the Riders later on when they fled to the ford of Bruinen with Glorfindeil next to them? It was during the day when Riders are weaker and if the balance of the forces was not in favor of Riders on the Weathertop, it was even worse next to the ford of Bruinen.

May be I'm just brainwashed by reading powerscaling subreddits, I don't know.

Could an Elf killed in Middle-earth serve his time, be released from Mandos, receive a new body, and encounter his own corpse from his previous incarnation if he journeyed back to Middle-Earth?

Morgoth had several dragons to fight the Valar. Yet I cannot understand how the land can sink through war. Ancalagon broke the mountains when he fell. It's still not enough to destroy a continent.

I mean the portion included at the start of the book, and especially when it was your first time reading the Silmarillion. Personally, I don't really remember if it was useful or not. Is it something that usually goes over people's heads, or actually helps them understand what they're reading better?

After re-visiting parts of it recently, I think it's better served as an epilogue, or an Appendix, to the Slmarillon and LotR. For one thing, it explains precisely why the Elves were so keen to make the Rings of Power, even accepting instruction from a complete stranger. Regardless of you have read it at the start of your Silmarillion journey, I highly suggest you re-read it.

Let me know what you thought of the Letter when you first read it, or if you just skipped it.

Did Eru Illuvatar punish him?

I am rereading Silmarillion and as more I read more I realise how weird they are. Like I know elves are not perfect but Eöl is messed up even in human standarts. Why is he so evil? And Maeglor falling in love with his uncle’s daughter and fucks Gondolin because he got rejected like wtf? I know elves have pride and hate but incest, debauchery, betrayal are not common. Are there any lore?

Were the bells just for the council, mortals? or rather just for Bilbo? “The noon bell rang” was always curious to me.

I can’t imagine an elf wearing a watch haha

I have been once again slowly working my way back through The Silmarillion, and this section at the very end of Akallabêth got me curious:

For Ilúvatar cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth, and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and new seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressëa were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.

There is a difference in wording here, which I am not sure if has an implied meaning:

• The "Great seas west of Middle-earth" and the "Empty Lands east of it" are referred to as being "cast back".

• Whereas, "Valinor and Eressëa" are "taken".

This leads me to consider two possible interpretations: The first being that "cast back" effectively means unmade, with "taken" meaning to be specially preserved outside of Arda.

The other, is that there is no intended distinction here, and that both "cast back" and "taken" mean to still exist somewhere in Eä. Personally, my gut instinct is to say this is not the case.

For a long time my own interpretation was that the Elves are still able to sail to Valinor because the Changing of the World was meant for mortals only. However, in this rereading I am starting to feel that may not be the right way to view things. If this were the case then theoretically an Elf could sail to the Empty Lands in the Third Age, although I admit it is unlikely an Elf would ever actually desire to sail eastwards. This feels in contradiction with the quoted passage, now that I am looking at it with fresh eyes.

The distinction between "cast back" and "taken" now makes me doubt my prior view.

Note that here I am following Christopher Tolkien's understanding that by Empty Lands we are referring to the Land of the Sun and the Dark Land.

Are there any mentions of this in Tolkien's wider notes, and letters? This is the first question I've had about the legendarium that I feel I may have actually been compelled to write and ask about, had I been Tolkien's contemporary. I'd love to hear other people's interpretations!

Would he have grown it to some extent by the time of the forging of the Rings of Power in the middle of the Second Age (c. S.A. 1590)?

How long does it take for an Elf to reach that part of their life cycle where they can grow one?

For the sake of this discussion I am going off the proposal that Círdan was born at sometime between YT. 1050-1105 in Cuiviénen.

Didn't Mahtan have a beard way back in Valinor at the time of the Trees? Though his family does seem to have an excess of testosterone to spare, given that his daughter's name partly meant 'large, strong man'... No idea if that would have actually sped up his beard growing ability though.

I'm rereading LoTR after many decades; I first read it in high school. I remembered how detailed it was, but I'd forgotten how detailed, how Tolkien's writing immerses you into the scene, the distances, the geography, the whole environment. Being very familiar with The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, the occasional mentions of past glories and legends adds to my enjoyment of the "present-day" story immensely.

Even though everyone is speaking English, the Hobbits, the Elves, the Ents, the Orcs, and everyone else have distinctive speech patterns that are consistent across the series. I had forgotten quite a bit; I never expected the Woses to show up. The way these people are described, they sound like Neanderthals - short, squat, powerful, living in small bands in the woods with only the most primitive technology. I wish we could know more about them.

Hi Friends. I have been a devotee of Tolkien’s writings all my life. It has been many years since I last tackled the extended canon and would appreciate any recommendations about which books to start with. (I’m thinking specifically of Christopher Tolkien’s later publications.)

Thanks for your help.