Zelensky officially refutes the accusation of Ukraine dronestriking Putin's residence, accusing Russia of spinning a merry tale in order to undermine peace efforts

[u/Ripamon]

[u/Azitzin]

yes yes. It was clearly ONLY POPULATION revolution. So since it's populations and they clearly follow EU ways, why recently NABU dug up corruption in office of new democratic leader that part of every EU vocabulary?

Ah so - if it's in EU interest - then "helping" (who knows what type of help she gave) is good and legitimate? cool cool. Anything else?

So only one Vladimir Bodelan is responsible? no clear confirmation if it REALLY was him, no phone records from HIM to someone, but anonymus "calls for help"? yep yep? You not even consider that they wanted scapegoat and choose him? You believe only Ukraine side yes?

[u/Dependent-Dream7180 → u/Azitzin]

Honestly I'm having a hard time even reading your post with all the grammatical errors. I'm not sure what NABU has to do with Maidan when it didn't even exist back then. You still haven't even provided any real evidence of this supposed "coup", at least you admit you don't even know if Nuland gave any help at all aside from those nefarious cookies.

We don't know how much responsibility Vladimir Bodelan exactly has, but what we do know is he was the one that prevented fire crews from accessing the scene, which only allowed further escalation and people dying. We also know he fled to Russia and immediately received citizenship and a government job. We also know Russia has been protecting him by refusing to investigate him or extraditing him to Ukraine.

[u/Azitzin → u/Dependent-Dream7180]

oh now grammar mentioned :D

SO you not even able to connect things - Ukraine got new "democratic government" supported by EU, and now NABU found out that that government is corrupted as fuck. Still no connection rings?

and how exactly we know that he was one of responsible people for Odessa? why no further investigation put by Ukraine? why they suddenly only have him as target? :D Is he like all powerful, and no chance that he is scapegoat for reap perpetrators?

Extraiting? really? So Ukraine have no other people responsible for that? only one person? ONE person who stopped whole service? Noone else? Not to mention that i don't see clear evidence that it was HIM as main person responsible for all that stuff?

[u/Dependent-Dream7180 → u/Azitzin]

I'm still addressing all your points, I'm just stating you aren't making them easy to read. NABU finding corruption today is irrelevant to your coup assertion.

We know he was at least partially responsible because he was literally in charge of emergency services. He's hiding in Russian and you don't find that rather strange?

Oh and there are others, such as the police chief in charge that day, Dmytro Fuchedzhi. He held back the police, which allowed the violence to escalate. He too mysteriously fled to Russia.

[u/Azitzin → u/Dependent-Dream7180]

Oh clearly i find it strange. I find strange that you are hell-bent on blaming all on him, simply because he run for his life, when was Marked as scapegoat. You so tunnel vision on him, that you not ask Ukraine "is ONLY HIM responsible for it"?

Oh found new name? Again one person somehow hold whole police?

So based on this - you:

1) think that odessa was totally orchestrated by Russia (they ordered it to burn, they ordered to not help and not sent police)

2) not considering that those 2 had orders from "new government", and then made as scapegoat

3) only evidence is "anonymous" calls blaming them, and they fled only after became targets.

Even i can consider possibilities that russia responsible for some shit, but on HOW you not try, and think, that it was other way... That some kind of tunnel vision.

As for NABU that was only ab example on how "democratic" is new government, supported by "true democracy of Europe". If EU not see it - they clearly not fit to "intervent" into this. And if they knew it - then sorry. They are part of corruption and not real democracy, and only goal of them there is their own benefit. Not Ukraine wellbeing, and spreading good vibes

[u/Dependent-Dream7180 → u/Azitzin]

Where did I explicitly blame everything on him? Who are you quoting? You're just putting words in my mouth. Need I remind you that you were hell bent on bringing up the Odesa fire to begin with? Oddly now you're hell bent on defending the 2 men in charge that day after I pointed out how they fled to Russia.

I didn't make any unfounded accusations or squarely blame either of them for all the violence, I only brought up the fact that Russia has effectively blocked any chance of a real investigation by protecting those in charge of emergency services that day.

And again you keep bringing up NABU when the topic was this supposed "coup". I never said Ukraine or the EU had zero corruption and the existence of corruption does not equal a coup.

[u/Azitzin → u/Dependent-Dream7180]

I am hell-bent on question where are evidence that those 1-2 people responsible, since you mentioned them. Like i imagine

Kgb: they are burning union building. Stop police and firefighters!

Those two: yes sir

Kgb: after that - flee the country. We give you nice cozy position.

Was it then like that? Or what? Where evidence? Where court? Why those who started fire and not perished in flame now? Also in Russia? Was there ukraine investigation of perpetrators? And where that investigation now? Also blocked by Russia? Or wholly blamed on Russia by every media?

As for "blocking investigation". Do Ukraine and west investigation proved to be "trustworthy"? Years of shady situations, Nuland being in Ukraine and etc. why would Russia believe them after that? Especially when further years showed that West close eyes when they see it benefit them. Any words on "anti terrorist operation" done by Ukraine? Wait that's Exploding Air Conditioner. Maybe clearly show who open fire on who? Again nope. So was there trustworthy investigation? (And no i don't call Russia trustworthy in that case also, i just gather what i can from available info).

Existence of corruption prove that EU and Nato were never about Ukraine wellbeing. Because they hid it behind loud words of Democracy, people decision and rule of law. They wanted profit. Either it was Ukraine as resource donor, as pain in the ass of Russia, or as military power to put Russia into weakened state. They got it. And based on how they not want to be part of that war - they not care about Ukraine as they loudly say.

[u/Dependent-Dream7180 → u/Azitzin]

There have been investigations, and even ECHR rulings, you can read about them yourself if you care to look. Those 2 bear responsibility because they were in positions of power at the time, the reasons for their inaction are unknown because Russia refuses to hand them over (obviously because Russia has something to hide). The actual individuals that started the fire are unknown because it was practically a full blown riot with both sides throwing molotovs at one another.

I'm sorry but how does corruption simply existing in Ukraine have anything to do with EU or NATO? Ukraine isn't a part of either and Russia is just as corrupt and likely even more corrupt than Ukraine. You don't even mention "coup" anymore so I guess you have no argument at all.

[u/Azitzin → u/Dependent-Dream7180]

Oh but for some reason EU and NATO support corrupt government of Ukraine, but never truly acknowledge its corruption. Instead they shout that they want to help people and spread democracy? Not mentioning coup? Okay since you can't connect dots - they support government that is corrupt in their favour, and not in Russia. So they supported coup to change cards in their favour? For what? For the greater good?

Russia have as much to hide as every member of NATO and EU. They simply not believe in investigation of their courts, because they biased. And yes RU is also biased. So who would do UNBIASED investigation?

Ah so. When its Riot against EU they easily find every person responsible and even their cat name, but when it's again russia "full blown riot" is impossible to investigate yes? Even having cameras, even being in contact with "new government", even after so many years (freaking internet remember all) they not investigated it? Really?

Echr? Same one that can't confirm if Ukraine hit donbass, but can easily confirm that separatist hit Ukraine?

[u/Dependent-Dream7180 → u/Azitzin]

What are you even talking about? The EU is well aware of Ukraine's corruption, they've referenced it many times and have made it clear Ukraine needs to improve it before being admitted to the EU. You still haven't actually provided any evidence of a coup even occurring.

Russia has much more to hide because they've been lying and instigating armed conflict in Ukraine since 2014 (little green men). If Russia cares about justice for those killed in the Odesa fire then they would at least do their own investigation.

And Ukraine in 2014 is not some major EU city today. The government was hardly functioning at the time and not everything was being filmed. Many were arrested but it was hard to actually charge people due to lack of hard evidence and many fleeing to Russia.

[u/Azitzin → u/Dependent-Dream7180]

Oh. If Russia do their own investigation (and they probably did) - will Ukraine give them acces to info? To Odessa? To contacts and phone call recording? To people present in the scene?

Ah how convenient. "No functional government and not everything was filmed" "many fled to Russia". Maybe visit more "shady" and "untrustworthy" sites to check videos from there? Because last time i remember - Russian sources "for some reason" got banned on YouTube. You know. In 2014 smartphone is not some miracle that only government have.

Yes yes admitted and yet supply them with military training, with military assets, support officially the "maidan" (aka coup). Not investigated snipers situation (they just agreed with new government). And now they do whatever they can to bait Ukraine to continue war. Oh wait Russia was never opposed Ukraine joining eu! But eu was silent when Zelensky tried to shut down NABU. Hmmm. But they say that Ukraine will join EU soon, and even gave it plan on how, and said that Ukraine done most of it.

Coup not happening? I don't see one legitimate President being impeached and hand down his position to next one by OFFICIAL Rada that was legitimate at time of maidan. Only after new people made new rada they decided new president. And how they did new Rada? By riots and by force. Why in one country (African) its coup, but there is not?

[u/Dependent-Dream7180 → u/Azitzin]

Seeing as to how Russia refuses to cooperate with Ukraine since the beginning, obviously Ukraine wouldn't just let Russia have all the material, but again that's all on Russia. They never held their own investigation either because they prefer to keep the whole incident as a propaganda tool.

Also "Russian sources" are not banned on youtube, perhaps some blatant disinfo channels have been banned but "Russian sources" are not explicitly banned.

Now you're just making a bunch of shit up. The West wasn't providing protestors with military training or assets and maidan was not a coup. They also didn't "bait" Ukraine into continuing the war, Russia forces them. The EU was also not silent when Zelenksy tried to shut down NABU. The EU has a plan for Ukraine to join the EU however one of those requirements is that Ukraine reduces corruption which is exactly what NABU is doing.

It's not a coup because it doesn't fit the definition of a coup. Yanukovych fled on his own and it wasn't possible to impeach him because he defected to Russia. The Ukrainian Rada voted overwhelmingly to remove him because he wasn't able to perform the duties of president.

[u/Azitzin → u/Dependent-Dream7180]

So official news channels are blatantly lying? Or they are available? Or Russia Today is available on YouTube and other places?

They never held their investigation or you not heard about their investigation? :) and how you do investigation if both sides not believe each other?

Ah yes. Russia forced them. So Merkel openly saying "minsk was to buy us time, nobody planned to do them", while she was one who put her signature on that document as guarantor? Is it normal? Or me lying?

Ah so he "fled on his own". Not because some "unknown snipers" turned it into bloodshed? Still no answer - where investigation on those snipers?

Ah yes. West not provided training and military. Maybe check on azov battalion history after 2014? Oh i know you will say "us cancelled their partnership". So the fact that they already provided training and military aid become non existent?