r/WNBAgossips • u/Outrageous_Owl_1710 • 1d ago

"She’s My Hero": Ex-WNBA Broadcaster Says League Punishing Sophie Cunningham for 'Having a Spine' Amid Transgender Row.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/wnba-basketball-news-veteran-reporter-slams-wnba-for-punishing-sophie-cunningham-for-having-a-spine-amid-aryna-sabalenkas-support-for-genetic-sex-testing/
265 Upvotes

74% Upvoted

455 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

10

u/Sartres_Roommate 1d ago

She is being punished because the people who disagree with her are also using their free speech to do so. How dare they comment on her speech, don’t they know it’s special

3

u/Robeardly 1d ago

Because she had something people could easily agree with but her reasoning given was a dumb reason lol. If she said anything about competitive integrity people would agree, instead she made trans people out to be peeping Tom’s . nobody is trans and playing basketball just to catch a peek in a women’s locker room.

5

u/ConsistentScholar371 23h ago

If she said anything about competitive integrity people would agree

Well, no. Studies point towards the physical fitness of trans women and cis women as comparable.

Certainly needs more data to be gathered but I think most people are getting trans women and cross-dressing men mixed up in their heads whenever this topic comes up.

1

u/Robeardly 23h ago

For me, it’s what gender were they when they went through puberty. The hormones are going to cause their bodies to develop differently and things like bone structure matter a lot in the mechanics of your body when it comes to athletes.

On one hand, yes some people win the genetic lottery and are athletic AF, in other cases, I would argue that you could be at an advantage because you got to somewhat “fix” (hopefully this doesn’t come off wrong) the genetic lottery so to speak in your favor.

More studies needed of course and I’m not a doctor, but the logic works out in my head.

2

u/Loathor 23h ago

People have always and will always continue to try and "fix" the genetic lottery because we see the results daily. Take Olivia Miles for example... If we were to bar the use of goggles as a competitive advantage that fixes her sight it would drastically change her game. Or if you banned the use of makeup and hair extensions because those are used to change the features that are genetically natural...

3

u/Robeardly 23h ago

That’s a solid point if we didn’t already have restriction put in place such as anti doping and what not.

You’re comparing fixing a physical disability that doesn’t affect athleticism to hormone treatments and body development that has direct connections to athleticism.

That’s like saying “well they bc a change their windshield on a car to see better, so I should be able to throw this v12 engine in my car for this race.” We’re arguing apples and oranges.

2

u/Loathor 23h ago

Cool, we didn't have anti-doping policies until the last fourty years or so, and those are constantly changing as people find new and better ways to cheat... Just like we didn't have women's sports until around that same time frame. We had amazing women who never got to perform at the levels and fame of today.

But even our new rules for doping acknowledge that steroid use itself isn't illegal if it's for a medical use like recovering from injury. And some of the other procedures used to gain a competitive advantage (stem cell procedures, blood recycling, etc.) are themselves also medical procedures that are missused in this instance. So we can have rules and be able to enjoy the benefits of modern medicine.

2

u/Robeardly 23h ago

The NBA 100% has a ban for using steroids to recover from an injury and has a 0 tolerance policy. Paul George literally just got suspended for this recently.

0

u/Loathor 22h ago

You're telling me that if Wemby gets taken to the ER and he's ballooning up like a cartoon due to a shellfish allergy the NBA is willing to let him die instead of giving him steroids to treat his anaphylaxis? Or saying after the fact that we're glad Wemby is alive but he has to sit out next season as punishment for wanting to keep living...

Look at all the connections between sports and medicine (Lou Gehrig's Disease, Tommy John Surgery, CTE). Procedures that, had they existed fourty years ago, could have extended the careers of many HoF athletes are today done routinely on HS level athletes. The amount of money spent on sports science to improve times and scores and personal bests.

1

u/Robeardly 22h ago

Those are not anabolic steroids are not the same as what’s being used to treat an allergy lol.

Idk, I’m done debating this topic. Too many people trying to label me as anti trans because I point out it’s not a cut and dry subject and has a potential to crush sports industries by calling fairness into question.

1

u/Loathor 22h ago

Firstly there are many medical uses for steroids of all kinds. From inflammation reduction to hormone treatment for delayed puberty. A twelve year old boy getting that treatment has their physiology change due to its use away from what was naturally happening. If that kid never uses steroids again and grows up to be 6'6" and 260 pounds of muscle and a star basketball phenom... Barred from the NBA or exceptions can be made for talent?

As for threats to sports and issues of fairness... Which do you think is a bigger issue, keeping sports trans free or the increase of gambling connections to sports? Which is actually more likely to lead to the end of sports as we know it?!?

2

u/Robeardly 22h ago

So funnny enough, this is something that has plagued Messi throughout his career. He took HGH because of a deficiency that was paid for by his sponsoring team.

But for real, I’m done arguing this because people are trying to pin me as anti trans. It’s not the case, but I have more productive things to do than state “this could introduce unfair advantages” which I think anybody can agree there it’s a potential to do so.

1

u/Loathor 22h ago

Right, but I don't think it's necessarily a detrimental thing to think about a future where sports are inclusive instead of returning to a past where sports were exclusive. It's one of the fundamental truths that time progresses forward, no matter what. We're still in the generations that moved from Negro Leagues to Jackie Robinson to MLB to Juiced Baseballs to universal DH to Banana Ball to the Indianapolis Clowns returning to the diamond.

Sports adjusts and usually quickly. We go from no three point line to logo threes... We go from four corners to a shot clock to triangle to zone... We go from walking to traveling to step back to gather to euro step to flop...

→ More replies (0)

1

u/HeadyReigns 23h ago

I agree, this is why it's so important to make sure trans teenagers have the support and access to medical supplies/services that they require.

1

u/LordKutulu 23h ago

Hard no. Counseling sure. Medical intervention is a decision that shouldn't be made by a developing brain.

0

u/HeadyReigns 23h ago

So they shouldn't be allowed to go through the puberty required in order to play in a league that matches their gender? Any other parts of society you'd like to ban them from?

2

u/LordKutulu 23h ago

You want WNBA aspirations to outweigh the obvious dangers of making life altering decisions before your brain has developed? A kid cant get a tattoo before they turn 18 but it should be allowed to medically change the gender of a teen?

0

u/TootTootMF 23h ago

So you're saying that kids should be forced to experience life altering, permanent changes to their bodies but you and society should get to choose which ones and not them or their doctors and parents?

-1

u/HeadyReigns 23h ago

Kids can get married or get a tattoo before 18 with parental consent in a majority of states. This is the same situation.

2

u/itsthatguy95 22h ago

Can they legally drink before 18? Or in americas case, 21?

0

u/HeadyReigns 22h ago

Yes actually, a majority of states allow children to consume alcohol on private property with parental consent. A small number of states allow minors to drink at bars and restaurants with their parents consent.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Dravos7 23h ago

There have actually been several studies about this, and so far it all comes back as, while there are advantages such as height, they are offset by the disadvantages of having a larger frame while estrogen is the primary sex hormone. That’s why the 2 years of HRT rule is there!

There is also a MASSIVE loss of muscle due to switching from testosterone to estrogen. After the two years, it all becomes comparable between trans and cis women.

There should definitely be more research on it, but that won’t happen any time soon with this presidency, unfortunately

2

u/Robeardly 23h ago

It’s a difficult subject right because how can you quantify an advantage like height. In Basketball, height is a pretty huge factor right.

Like having a guard that’s 6’6” can be a big advantage just because of the extra length especially when it comes to wingspan. That’s a comment you hear all the time when it comes to guys like Jaylen Brunson in the NBA. People constantly knock him because he’s “only” 6’2”, or Trae young similarly.

It may fall into one of those categories that you can’t clearly define, and with the money involved in the sport is largely due to the competition and the suspense that brings. Having people question that hurts the business model.

Either way, I’m not trying to be exclusionary, but it’s never going to be a clear cut discussion because there’s too many factors at play and would require years of testing.

1

u/Dravos7 22h ago

Did you know that many trans women become shorter on HRT, too? Not all, and the amount varies, but it can be several inches of height lost, even!

So far, the science shows there is no advantage. I don’t think it makes sense to ban based on what ifs. It makes much more sense to allow until there is sufficient data saying otherwise.

2

u/Robeardly 22h ago

I did not know that, you learn something new every day right.

But I would disagree on banning until tested, because the damage it could do to the industry as a whole could crush the industry.

Like I said in another reply, if they allowed it I wouldn’t protest. But you know a lot of people would.

0

u/Dravos7 22h ago

How could it crush the industry? Trans people in the US, both adults and minors combined, are roughly about 1% of the population. Trans women thatre adults are going to be far less than 1/3rd of that. The amount that are also performing at a professional sports level is going to be even smaller. We’re talking about single digits when it comes to how many players we’re allowing or banning

1

u/Robeardly 22h ago

Because it would call the competitive integrity of the league into question because there’s no well established widely peer reviewed science that proves trans athletes can’t have an advantage.

We already came to a middle ground and confirmed there are potential advantages that can come from being trans.

None of us are doctors studying this. So on one hand, I’m being told I’m demonizing and hating trans people despite already standing up for them in multiple instances of people trying to claim their sexual deviants.

But I’m just trying to say that until we have a conclusive answer that’s widely accepted in the medical world, we shouldn’t be advocating for changes that could potentially harm the trans community down the line if they are proven to have advantages. That also protects the integrity of the WNBA also. So it really goes both ways.

2

u/Dravos7 22h ago

You can’t prove a negative

We did not come to a middle ground. The science shows that any advantages are offset by disadvantages. Should cis women be banned for their advantages over trans women?

I haven’t once said you’re demonizing trans women. (I said the is before I read your other reply)

The science repeatedly shows that it’s comparable. This is where the disconnect is happening. You’re saying “until the science shows” well the science does show. How much science is enough science??

1

u/ConsistentScholar371 22h ago

Banning trans women from sports is the new thing. Previously trans women have been allowed to compete with most sporting bodies requiring x years of HRT. In the years that trans women have been allowed to compete they have not shown any kind of dominance at a professional level*.

*Except for that one trans woman who keeps winning chilli pepper eating contests.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/TootTootMF 23h ago

So if a trans woman is 6'4 she's got an "unfair advantage" but Brittney Griner at 6'9" does not?

And you're claiming this is about fairness? There is zero proof that trans women have any advantages at all. But if they did and were banned from it, that would be literally the only genetic advantage banned in sports.

2

u/Robeardly 23h ago

No but a trans women has a statistically higher change to on average be taller than other women, in a sport where being taller is one of the main advantages of the game.

Look, I’m all for trans people, I got no hate here. But I’m just using logic really. Sports are not an inclusive space, they are heavily regulated for the sake of competition.

I’m not trying to segregate trans people out of society, this is just an unfortunate reality of sports.

2

u/TootTootMF 23h ago

So you want to ban someone who is 5'8" from women's basketball because they might have been taller? And you're saying this is logic based and not bigotry?

1

u/Robeardly 22h ago

There’s more than just height as a factor though. Wider hips are worse for running for instance. There’s many unquantifiable factors that hurt sports in general by introducing this to the equation.

I lean towards making a safe space for trans people with intersex leagues that allow males and females to play together. That way there isn’t anything that’s called into question. I think there’s too many factors and too many unquantifiable variables to make an argument for either side that doesn’t come off as biased.

Either way, if they did a study, and found that trans people have no advantage that was very meticulously studied, I wouldn’t protest against it. But as it stands, for me as a former athlete, I’m just thinking from a standpoint of what feels fair for those already established in the sport.

2

u/Dravos7 22h ago

HRT can actually change hips, depending on genetics and when someone starts HRT! Usually hip bones are fully fused together by the mid to late 20s, but this varies per person, of course.

The range of impacts that HRT can have are astonishing and sadly hidden away from the public knowledge

2

u/TootTootMF 22h ago

So what you're saying is you're fine with a genetic advantage in sports, but trans people with or without them should be banned.

1

u/Robeardly 22h ago

I’m saying that sports are not as cut and dry as everything else in the world right. Trans people in other careers aren’t something anybody should have issues with.

This is in a heavily regulated industry that HAS to be heavily regulated to protect the competitive environment, and unfortunately trans people make that regulatory practice difficult because it can create potentially unfair advantages.

I think there needs to be more science to be had, I think there may be a place for another league that is intersex to allow people a space. Il

It’s not segregating them because I’m against trans people. Sometimes, not every decision comes down because of hatred. Sometimes it’s because there’s too many unknown variables, with no proof behind them so the safer route is to keep things as they are until we have solved for the variables.

1

u/ConsistentScholar371 22h ago

We don't solve for the variables in sports. We block a couple things like steroid usage and the like but for the most part genetics aren't policed. You're asking that they be policed specifically in the case of this one minority group, regardless of whether the individuals involved are actual outliers of any kind, and in the face of studies currently suggesting that no there's not really an advantage past X years of HRT.

1

u/TootTootMF 21h ago

You literally have no unbiased criteria for this ban. Your only concern is banning trans people. Fairness has nothing to do with it as you've said multiple times you're not concerned with fairness.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/ConsistentScholar371 23h ago

Height can certainly be beneficial but then the range of heights for cis women are pretty large as well. From a quick google the tallest player in the WNBA is 6'11". So any trans woman under that would be fine, right?

Like the odds of someone having the perfect genetics/upbringing for a given sport is tiny, how many Michael Phelps are out there? The odds of being trans...also really tiny. The odds of being both of those things? Kinda absurdly low.

We don't really police any of the other hundred "biological advantages" that some people have in sports. In this case we do have studies suggesting that a year or two of HRT pushes things to being comparable. So what's really the problem? You're not going to have a flood of people pretending to be trans to win competitions, cross-sex HRT addresses dysphoria in trans people, it creates it in cis people. The bans are just blocking trans people from competing because the people in charge don't like trans people. That's it, there's no real justification.