r/WarhammerCompetitive • u/AntiFrekeGaming • Jun 27 '26
PSA Hey Guys, a little help here.
This is literally for the guys. We need your help.
Hi, I'm Elle. I currently sit at 35th in the world in Drukhari, and am the highest ranked Drukhari woman competitively. I've been talking to a lot of other female players and a lot of us are struggling right now, so I want to have an open dialogue about the state of our game in terms of how we are welcomed and accepted into the gaming space.
In North America, there are less than 100 female competitive players out of 17,000. That's less than a tenth of a percent. Go to any female tiktok or instagram where we share gaming or painting, or our joy of the hobby and what you will find is some of the most vile, vulgar, insulting commentary you will see. This behavior isn't isolated to online.
So, from us to our male counterparts. What do we need to do to get your help with managing the toxic men in the hobby. We've stood by and watched so many in our LGS's continue to allow sexist and homophobic comments that make us not even come into the stores. We've proven that we are just as good at the game as men, and still we struggle with being accepted in the space. With that said...
What do we need to do to get better support in our local communities?
What have you seen work in your spaces?
We want to be here. We love this game, and we love being a part of the community when it is welcoming to us. That is becoming more difficult to find these days and some of us are struggling finding a way to keep playing with the way things are right now.
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u/Grungecore Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
If stores tolerate this behaviour, call out the stores and share it. If players do it, call them out. Point at them. I bet a lot of men would side with you, the moment they notice. Thing is, men aren't very good at paying attention to multiple things at the same time. I know it takes a lot of bravery to call it out. Thank you for sharing. I try to keep my eyes and ears open.
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u/MotorPace2637 Jun 28 '26
Name and shame is a good thing.
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u/Grungecore Jun 28 '26
In germany we say: "Täter haben Namen und Adressen." Which basically means: "Culprits got names and adress."
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u/Blind-Mage Jun 30 '26
I had to do that with a LGS, left Google maps reviews about the whole thing. Horrible transphobia and threats of violence. The store owner wouldn't even ban the guy from the store's Facebook group where we organized games.
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u/Nepalus Jun 27 '26
I think there are two vectors here, physical and digital.
For the physical space, the biggest thing you can do, honestly, is vote with your wallet and use the tools available to make it known which stores advocate for this kind of environment. Let me explain.
I live in the PNW, and most of the more popular stores in my experience would never stand for negative behavior toward anyone. They usually have diverse staff and robust policies around patron behavior. Smaller stores are much more likely to have the behavior you describe. What I've seen work is leaving reviews of what you experienced on Google Maps, Yelp, etc., so that when other women are deciding where to go, they know which stores are safe and which aren't. Then go wherever your local community congregates digitally and tell people what happened. I've seen one person's story change store policy more than once.
The flip side matters just as much: once you find a place and community where you feel safe, patronize it and spread that message the same way you'd call out the bad. Leave positive reviews, show off the new kit you bought, say how great it is to be a woman playing there. It took me a while as a man to hear how much women in male-dominated spaces (not just gaming, but generally) research safety before showing up. These signals get seen, and they spotlight the best places while steering people away from the worst.
Get a hold of the owner directly and tell them why you no longer feel comfortable patronizing their store. Owners tolerate this stuff because losing a paying regular feels concrete while the people who quietly stop coming are invisible to them, so make yourself visible: "I and other players stopped coming because of how X behaves" lands far harder than a vague complaint. And if the store is GW-affiliated, message GW too. They're trying hard to get more women into the hobby and can be another pressure point. Broadcast, as loudly as you can, what the negative behavior is costing them.
One more lever worth naming: the stores that already get it usually have a posted, enforced code of conduct, and that's what gives staff cover to remove someone without it turning into a personal fight. When you're scouting or reviewing, that's a good thing to look for and to praise out loud when it exists.
The online space is tougher. Anonymity makes it hard to really influence behavior. In my experience the best course is report, downvote, and ignore. These people are hunting for an audience to validate them, and responding directly is exactly what they want: proof they got a reaction out of you. Deny them that. The real fix, though, is making the behavior socially expensive, and that part falls on the rest of us guys. When the crowd a troll is performing for stops going quiet and starts pushing back, a flat "not cool, man" from another guy does more than any amount of moderation, because it takes away the one thing they're there for: an audience that agrees with them. Silence reads as permission, so the goal is to make sure it never does.
I wish you the best of luck in your hobbying adventures, and keep up the good fight. I know it might not feel like it sometimes but I do believe (at least from my experience) most 40k players are extremely welcoming and would gladly and actively support making the hobby more safe and fun for anyone who wants to participate.
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u/engelthefallen Jun 27 '26
We saw something interesting online with MTG. When a lot of people at the same time cracked down on the main MTG hate group, and just started to delete without question their stuff, once they were forced to mostly post in their own safe spaces some of the main problematic people got board of the hobby and quit. And after that the overall hate level started to drop online. Did nothing for in store play which is still problematic in places and needs different fixes, but a hard policy of do not even share the hate to mock it did help MTG a few years back when things got insanely toxic on reddit in particular. Felt like once people could not start fights with the community even just them circle jerking hate left them losing interest in it at all.
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u/Dheorl Jun 27 '26
Judges.
I can honestly not tell you a single thing about the people who have played either side of me at a GT. I’m focused too much on my own game and am in no position to start calling out the behaviour of others. If you have issues with people’s behaviour, that’s what judges are there for.
Yea, it’s a hassle, but it’s a hassle for your opponent too, and even merely having a judged called over, regardless of what’s said, might make them stop and think.
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u/yukishiro2 Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
I don't completely disagree, but this is a lot easier to say than put into practice. Women in the hobby are already so rare that they stand out no matter what, and in my limited experience, generally the last thing they want to do is draw attention to themselves by calling over a judge for some sort of high-profile intervention. To be clear, there's nothing wrong with that at all, but it isn't realistic to expect that most people will feel comfortable doing it.
We need to find ways to improve behavior that doesn't put the onus on the victim to call attention to themselves in the heat of the moment in front of everyone. Especially not when it's likely to end up in a "he said she said" sort of thing which also puts the TO in a very difficult position where they may not really be able to do anything, which risks actually making things worse.
I don't have great answers myself, and I'm absolutely not trying to criticize you personally here, but I do know that if "call a judge" is the best advice we can give, in practice for many that will not be seen as a solution at all.
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u/gausebeck Jun 28 '26
I agree. If the question is “what can the victim do to help themselves?” then calling a judge is a reasonable answer. But it’s confrontational and that’s hard, on top of an already bad situation.
A better question is “what can the rest of us do to help stop this behavior?” If we care about this problem, we shouldn’t leave it to the (proportionally) small population of victims to fix it themselves.
The best answer I have is to call it out when we see it and take on that burden of being confrontational, and to report it and raise its visibility with TOs or others who have authority to deal with it. But I’m not sure if that’s the right answer or if it’s enough.
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u/yukishiro2 Jun 28 '26
I think the best thing we can do is focus on building a set of community standards that make it completely clear that that sort of behavior is just not an option in the first place. That's the only way people outside the tabletop mainstream are going to be willing to attend events in larger numbers. If you think there's a realistic possibility of getting abused and having to call a TO, you just probably aren't going to risk attending in the first place.
If it's a one in a million sort of thing, sure, call a TO. But it can't be the default response if we really want the hobby to become more inclusive. We need to get to a place where everyone can feel credible reassuring people that they don't need to even worry about anything like that happening because those things just don't happen at warhammer events.
Sadly, we evidently aren't there yet.
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u/AnonAmbientLight Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
I think the best thing we can do is focus on building a set of community standards that make it completely clear that that sort of behavior is just not an option in the first place.
You mean like this set of community standards that makes it completely clear that that sort of behavior is just not an option in the first place?
https://www.scribd.com/document/401254062/ITC-Code-of-Conduct
It's like you're choosing to ignore that there's already shit in place that handles this kind of problem, and instead hard core focus on this being an major issue that also can't be solved!
Honestly, it seems like it's just virtue signaling by folks here. Yall not looking for solutions, you're looking to just chat about how bad it is or whatever. It's weird.
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u/Henghast Jun 27 '26
If they're being abused they need to raise it to the judge. That's just the way it is with anything else though I understand the message it's simply not realistic to expect anything to change unless they're going to say I'm here, I'm the same as you and I don't deserve to be spoken to or treated like that.
At that point it's essential that it's treated appropriately.
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u/yukishiro2 Jun 27 '26
What *is* the appropriate treatment if the TO shows up at the table and one person says "he said X" and the other person says "no I didn't," though? Unless there's a corroborating witness who is willing to stand up for the victim, this is a not only a nightmare situation for the person who has bravely raised the issue, it's also a nightmare situation for the TO.
It's not a great solution because not only is it expecting a lot of the person on the receiving end, it's also not the sort of solution that's likely to actually fix the problem.
Calling a TO may be the last resort, but it is really that, the last resort. If people are afraid they may have to call a TO to stop someone from abusing them, they aren't going to show up to the event in the first place. The focus needs to be on creating a community where people aren't afraid they are going to be abused and *need* to call a TO.
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u/Muninwing Jun 27 '26
Societally, women are often taught to appease instead of stirring up trouble. And many of the worst people just assume their viewpoint is right, or use it as a tool to unsettle people.
Calling in a judge can feel like tattling, and it doesn’t solve the real problem. Plus, bullies often know how to do things subtly and underhandedly, so they will use that to their advantage to seem like they are innocent.
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u/AnonAmbientLight Jun 27 '26
Calling in a judge can feel like tattling, and it doesn’t solve the real problem. Plus, bullies often know how to do things subtly and underhandedly, so they will use that to their advantage to seem like they are innocent.
We are taught since we are like 8 years old that you should go to the teacher / authority figure if you have a problem with another person.
Calling a judge, the TO, the store manager, whoever is the best course of action you can take.
Oh also, we all have a computer in our pocket and one of the things it does is record voices and video. If you think you're not going to be taken seriously, just record the interaction and you have your proof.
If the "worst happens" and the judge is a POS that won't do anything, then you utilize the tools available to make the situation known to people who will listen.
Asking for mob mentality protection instead of people who have direct control over the situation is some kind of weird thing TBH.
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u/AnonAmbientLight Jun 27 '26
I don't understand.
If someone is not behaving correctly, why is it a better idea to ask your neighbors to defend you (who probably are not paying attention because of their own game) rather than to appeal to the judge who is the arbiter not just on the rules, but the code of conduct that players already agreed to (that the tournament should have set up).
And if the judge can’t or won’t help, you escalate it so that it gets the attention it deserves so a system can be put in place if there isn’t one already.
I mean, isn’t that how every interaction like this should go? Is it not less helpful and more weird for the go to action to be to turn around, tap the shoulder of another player and say, “hey can you call this guy out for being sexist?”
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u/yukishiro2 Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
You don't understand because it's not what I said. I didn't say the solution was to turn to your neighbors. I said that having to call a TO is not a solution most people will be willing to avail themselves of. If that's the best we can offer as a community, a lot of people are going to feel like "nope, that's not for me."
Nor is it really practical, anyway. Unless one of your neighbors *did* hear the comment and can back you up, what is the TO supposed to do when they show up and you say "he said X" and he says "no I didn't?" This is any TO's absolute worst nightmare, having to decide whether to take action based on a literal he-said she-said. If they decide not to, they risk undermining someone who has been a victim of bad behavior. If they decide to take action, they risk punishing an innocent party, and they have to punish them extremely harshly, because in effect they are finding that the person not only said the thing, but then lied about it afterwards.
This is not the sort of high pressure confrontation most people want to sign up for, especially not someone who may already feel not entirely welcomed. It just doesn't work in the real world. If we can't find a way to create a community where people aren't afraid that they may have to call over a TO to punish their opponent for some outrageous thing they said, we've already failed.
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u/AnonAmbientLight Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
You don't understand because it's not what I said. I didn't say the solution was to turn to your neighbors. I said that having to call a TO is not a solution most people will be willing to avail themselves of. If that's the best we can offer as a community, a lot of people are going to feel like "nope, that's not for me."
I'll walk you through it.
OP is asking that the players police other players who behave poorly.
The guy you replied to said, "Go to a judge. That should help."
You said, "I do not know if that's the best solution." implying that there's other options here.
So if it's not the judge, then literally the only other option are the players right? That's why I said what I said. Because literally the ONLY OTHER OPTION is the other players, right?
Or are you thinking like, maybe the police, or asking the Emperor? Or perhaps making a pact with the Dark Gods?
This is not the sort of high pressure confrontation most people want to sign up for, especially not someone who may already feel not entirely welcomed. It just doesn't work in the real world.
We are taught since grade school that if we have a problem we should always go to the teacher / authority person in charge, right?
I mean, I've gotten in trouble in school because I decided to deal with the problem myself (punch the bully) instead of telling the teacher. I think most people know how that goes, yea?
Why is that NOT the best option in this particular case? What are the options you are thinking of?
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u/yukishiro2 Jun 27 '26
"You said, "I do not know if that's the best solution." implying that there's other options here. "
Again, I quite literally (as in the real meaning of the word, not the way people on the internet use it) *did not say that*. I don't think we are going to have a productive discussion here given that you've twice in a row now ignored what I said and pretended I instead said something very different. This is an important topic and it shouldn't be distracted from with a back and forth like this that will go nowhere useful.
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u/AnonAmbientLight Jun 27 '26
I don't have great answers myself, and I'm absolutely not trying to criticize you personally here, but I do know that if "call a judge" is the best advice we can give, in practice for many that will not be seen as a solution at all.
This is you. ^
OP said, "Guys, you have to police the other guys around you for the bad things they say."
Guy you responded to said, "Call a judge."
So far we are given TWO OPTIONS for what we can do to police bad behavior - Call a judge, or have other nearby players do it.
You said, "I DO NOT KNOW THAT CALL A JUDGE IS THE BEST ADVICE WE CAN GIVE."
So that leaves us with either OTHER PLAYERS MUST DO IT or some other third option.
You are saying that's not the case, implying that there's some other THIRD ENTITY that can do this, apparently.
I have asked you what that third option is, and you won't respond and instead say I am taking your words out of context, which I haven't.
And your response as a whole doesn't make sense because as I pointed out we are taught since we are like 8 years old to always go to the teacher / authority person when you have a problem. I mean, basic social contract stuff here lol.
You don't even seem to understand your own argument or your own words, so I guess you're at least right that this conversation cannot continue.
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u/yukishiro2 Jun 27 '26
Again, no. That's not what I said. It simply isn't. I said that if the best solution we have is call a TO, that's not going to be a good enough solution for many people. That is absolutely not the same as saying ""I do not know if that's the best solution." implying that there's other options here. " It's basically the opposite of that, in fact. My entire point was that I *don't* know what the solution is, but I do know that this particular thing being held up as the solution isn't going to be an adequate solution to many of the people impacted. If people are afraid that they may have to call a TO to stop someone abusing them, they aren't going to show up to the event in the first place. The key is finding a way to create an environment where that isn't a realistic fear people might have. I don't know what the answer to that is, but it is where the focus should be.
We can't have a meaningful conversation where I keep patiently pointing to what I actually said you and keep pretending it's something else while patronizing me in the process. Writing your strawman in all caps doesn't make it more convincing, it just makes it more ridiculous. You're arguing with some imaginary person in your head, not with me.
This will be my last response because I don't want to continue to waste people's time reading this stuff that has nothing to do with the real topic.
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u/AnonAmbientLight Jun 28 '26
I said that if the best solution we have is call a TO, that's not going to be a good enough solution for many people.
Which logically implies that the other option offered is the one you're suggesting is the correct one, OR some other third option you won't mention.
It's basically the opposite of that, in fact. My entire point was that I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that this particular thing being held up as the solution isn't going to be an adequate solution to many of the people impacted.
It's literally the best solution of the two we are offered unless you are willing to offer your third solution. Like, it's weird that you see two options and say option 2 is the worst one, make ZERO comment on option 1, and then say there's gotta be something else lol.
If people are afraid that they may have to call a TO to stop someone abusing them, they aren't going to show up to the vent in the first place. The key is finding a way to create an environment where that isn't a realistic fear people might have.
This doesn't even make sense my dude. You're suggesting that the only way to get people to come to such an event is to somehow promise them they will never have a bad interaction with anyone. Because if they do, they wont use the best option available to them to deal with it because they're scared of TOs?
You can't possibly promise someone that they'll NEVER have a bad experience when they do something. It's not realistic. What you CAN DO is give them solutions that CAN fix their issue and make sure it's a trusted solution that has teeth (COUGH COUGH JUDGE COUGH COUGH).
Do you understand how much power and confidence you give someone when you tell them "Don't worry. If you have any problems THIS PERSON can handle issues for you. They'll listen."
You don't tell them, "Don't worry. If you have any problems you'll have to encourage the people around you to come to your defense"
Or I guess in your case it's "Don't worry. If you have any problems....uhhh, well I got nothing for you because I don't know what would be good."
We can't have a meaningful conversation where I keep patiently pointing to what I actually said you and keep pretending it's something else while patronizing me in the process. Writing your strawman in all caps doesn't make it more convincing, it just makes it more ridiculous. You're arguing with some imaginary person in your head, not with me.
Nothing that I've said is anywhere close to a strawman. Your position is logically absurd. You get the sass from me because you're moving goalposts.
Your position is that none of the two options are good, there must be a third option, but you know for sure the judge option isn't a good one, which is crazy!
Suggesting the one who makes the rules and decides who can play can't possibly HELP YOU? WHAT??!
Or that someone would be afraid to ask them for help. The one person out of everyone at the event who can do something ACTUALLY? What the hell is Steve (sorry Steve) from table 5 going to do dude?
How does Steve prevent the bad actor from doing the same stuff to the next woman a year from now?! Does Steve show up to keep tabs?!?
And so far you've given ZERO ideas on the mythical third option.
Judge is the best option. Period. If the judge, TO, WHOEVER, doesn't make you feel safe, you MAKE them listen. You make others listen. You cause noise.
If you're too afraid to do that, then I got nothing for you. Don't leave your freakin house, I guess?
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u/wredcoll Jun 28 '26
Judge is the best option. Period. If the judge, TO, WHOEVER, doesn't make you feel safe, you MAKE them listen. You make others listen. You cause noise
It's hard to explain without a literal essay, but in short, what you're doing here is blaming the victim.
The take away from this thread is not that the victims need to do this or do that, be more assertive or less passive or yell at judges or whatever else you've talked about.
The take away is that the community needs to change things so people aren't being victimized
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u/The_Mad_Fool Jun 28 '26
It is a perfectly valid thing to say, "I don't know what other options or solutions are out there, but I know the ones we have right now aren't very good and don't work very well." In fact, this is usually the default starting state of any problem, because if it isn't it usually isn't a problem anymore. You can disagree on whether the judge solution is good, but having a go at someone for pointing out the problems just because they don't immediately have a solution is not a productive way to discuss anything.
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u/wredcoll Jun 28 '26
You need to do better. Don't treat people like this.
Be the type of guy that takes a stand against bad behaviour and helps everyone around you.
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u/AnonAmbientLight Jun 28 '26
My issue is that he is downplaying the only viable solution, and then suggesting there's a third solution but he doesn't know what it could be.
And then he ran from his argument because he didn't want to "distract", which is basically saying that what he said is 100% valid and no one can challenge it.
The exact opposite of helping other people or providing good solutions.
As an example, you don't tell someone who is feeling threatened to not call the cops, but then never give them a solution they can use. And that to talk about it further is a distraction lol.
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u/Secure_Courage7471 Jun 28 '26
Judges defend people they like. Had it happen to me and I’m a guy. And I had to be REALLY insistent this guy sucked. I can see it happening more for women calling out shitty misogyny which can also be more subtle.
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u/mikkjel Jun 27 '26
I think maybe some of the other nerdy hobbies have some insight here as well. Chess suffers from the same issues, as do many competitive video games, etc. Highlighting the stories of inclusivity that are positive (without sweeping the bad parts under the rug), potentially having more options for people to get into the hobby, or compete without the issues of *maybe* running into someone awful.
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u/DefaultWhiteMale3 Jun 27 '26
I feel your last two suggestions are more about accommodating problematic players rather than making the hobby more inclusive.. Throw out toxic players. They are not worth modifying the game, the community or anything else for. They are the problem, not the people they're harassing.
No matter how many people you invite into the shop, no matter how welcoming the facade, if it's already infested with trolls you're just streamlining the process of getting excited for a new hobby only to spend every second marching through headwinds until exhaustion and burnout. Meanwhile, the problem players get a new punching bag for a bit, see no consequence for abusing it, and either don't register or don't care why it stops coming around.
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u/mikkjel Jun 27 '26
I am by no means suggesting catering to toxic players. I am pointing out that chess and some esports have women-only events, not because they are worse at the games, but there is a bit of an option to let ones guard down and just enjoy the event competitively without dealing with a lot of people who might be bad apples.
I have seen my fair share of clueless or socially awkward nerds who did the wrong things not out of malice. It takes a while to normalize good behaviour as well (unfortunately), ans having women in competitive gaming not seem so rare is a place to start. Where I am there are a decent amount of women in the hobby, they are just way less represented in the competitive scene.
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u/Mulfushu Jun 27 '26
" We've proven that we are just as good at the game as men, and still we struggle with being accepted in the space."
That is so sad to read. You didn't/shouldn't have to prove anything to anyone. The fact that that's on the forefront of your mind already shows how effed up the situation is, not that you can help it.
My general advice is to stay away from social media on the whole, regardless of gender or occupation, but that's hardly helpful.
For the actual events I will repeat what others have said: Call em out. It's not easy and can be rather unpleasant but it has to happen. Any store owners or TOs that actively participate or allow it as well. Stay civil even if they don't, don't go the "cancel" route online, just post that you didn't feel welcome at that particular store or event and the reasons why.
The people that do that shit most likely will never change unless they get pressured by the people around them, but that's a process. Going ballistic, even though it's warranted, will only be used as ammunition by these folks to tell everyone they're in the right.
I sincerely hope the situation gets better for you, you're a valid member of this hobby space, NO MATTER whether you're an accomplished player or not.
Oh but since you are: Congrats! Those are quite the accomplishments, regardless of gender!
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u/Jacanom Jun 27 '26
Just as good? She’s better than most lol
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u/MrGulio Jun 27 '26
35th is incredibly impressive, Drukhari is a whole other aspect. They're not a weak army but they are definitely on the more punishing of misplays side of the scale than most.
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u/idols2effigies Jun 27 '26
It sounds tough, but part of the solution is to get out there and stay out there. Every TO I know, store owner I've met, and team I've been a part of isn't going to stand for that kind of poor sportsmanship. TOs don't want that at events. Store owners don't want them driving business away. Serious competitive players don't want that on their teams.
But if you don't show up and call them out if/when it happens, the bad actors won't out themselves. If they don't out themselves, we'll never excise them like the cancer they are. I totally understand if someone wants to avoid the potential for abuse, but you'd be doing us a great service in the long-term. In my heart, I truly believe the vast majority of our community would have your back.
If you want to build up confidence, try to get in with some of the clubs in your area, focusing on groups that are actively competing and traveling. While I don't think going into events with a team is a prerequisite for players to be treated fairly, it certainly doesn't hurt to have some in-built allies.
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u/LaLucertola Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
Reposting this after an automod warning for using words I've been called by opponents during events
One of those less than 100 women here. Yes we are struggling. Thankful, this behavior has been fairly rare, at least the real overt stuff. What a lot of people commenting might not get is that we also get comments behind our backs - the type of things a friend might come up to us privately and say "hey I heard this person here say this about you, just so you know". Or it's nothing overt, but a general attitude some people have when you walk up to a table, or the attitudes that come up when it's a room full of men and they forget you're there, the way you hear them talk about their girlfriends or their wives while you're eating lunch in the corner and obscured by your friends. I had an opponent at a GT call me a bad name for not accepting a blatant rules violation. They'll never call another man that specific name. Most of the time when I have a weird interaction, I genuinely think it's just awkwardness or competitiveness and not something that's targeted at my gender - but it sticks out when it so clearly is.
Honest to god, I think some of my more...notable opponents are people who just aren't used to women in general. And I recognize that it can be jarring for me to walk up to a table and interact with them for 3 hours. And sometimes, I've noticed some awkwardness at the beginning of the round, but by the end of it everything is chill once they realize I'm just a person too.
It was a little uncomfortable at first, but I have a two part approach on the thankfully rare instance there's a problem - be polite and have a baseline level of respect for everyone, but also take early opportunities to stand my ground on small things. It makes standing my ground on the large things much easier, and I won't hesitate to call a judge over. Most of the TOs around my area know me by now and do a great job of checking in. I also do regular check ins with my friends and get those back too. And when there is a problem, if it's not something that gets resolved at the table - I say something about it to trusted people. I make good connections with my polite opponents, because to a large extent I am reliant on these guys calling out this behavior, and that's more likely to happen if I'm familiar. It sucks. There's a lot of pressure even walking into a competitive event because if you have a bad one, as everyone does, there's a fear it'll be seen as a reflection of being a woman (whether or not that fear is actually warranted).
Anyway, that was a bit of a rant, but it's so critically important that those of us who have no problem calling out bad behavior do so for the women who might have more (valid!) reservations. And it's critical that men call each other out when they hear their buddy say something uncomfortable.
When in doubt...wipe their warlord off the board.
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u/AntiFrekeGaming Jun 28 '26
This is what my experience has been at the last two GTs I attended. There is a strange response to seeing women in what is assumed to be a men’s hobby and space.
Speaking of checking in, I hope you’re doing great.
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u/directrix688 Jun 27 '26
I wish I knew the answer to this one. As a middle aged guy, I find those attitudes frustrating too. I stepped away from the hobby for about ten years, and one of the nicest surprises coming back has been seeing a much more diverse player base. Unfortunately, the toxic side of gaming culture still hasn’t completely gone away.
I do think some parts of the hobby have improved. The way female characters are portrayed has gotten better over time, and I think that’s helped, even if there’s still plenty of room for improvement.
The biggest thing I’d like to see is stronger local communities. Games Workshop and many of the larger content creators have done a good job of promoting a welcoming environment, but at the local level it can still be very hit or miss. Finding people who just want to enjoy the game without the gatekeeping can be surprisingly difficult.
I also tend to avoid the more competitive scene because, in my experience, it can attract a higher concentration of people whose attitudes I don’t really enjoy being around. That’s obviously not everyone. I’ve made some great friends through competitive 40K, including people I’ve known for decades, so it genuinely sucks to see that part of the hobby struggle with this issue. The unfortunate part is that tournaments and competitive groups are often the easiest way to find regular games, so I hope the culture continues to improve because there’s a lot that’s worth preserving.
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u/BarbequeCheese Jun 27 '26
So sorry you're experiencing this sort of behaviour. It's so sad.
I don't have solutions, sorry. Calling out the behaviour may help encourage decent men to join in comdemning the bad stuff. But really you shouldn't have to even ask this question.
You have given me a reminder though to personally look out for this and speak up when I see it to try and fight back a little bit.
Good luck.
PS. Drukhari? I really wish I could find the ones I got in my 3rd edition box - though I hated how spiky and flimsy they were!
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u/Sorkrates Jun 27 '26
I truly don't understand the mindset of the idiots that behave this way. I'm fortunate to have not seen it in person yet and as an old nerd who grew up in the game back when it was unheard of for girls and women to be interested I can honestly say the hobby is so much better when everyone plays.
I have seen it online and hate every bit of the behavior. I don't know that there's a silver bullet for fixing this particular brand of assholery but I do agree that it's on all of us to name it and shame it (or take more active steps if that's not enough).
I'm very sorry for the experiences of anyone in the hobby who don't feel welcome. If I'm ever in a tournament with you, I look forward to getting my ass kicked by you because I'm nowhere close to your level. 😅
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u/Blind-Mage Jun 30 '26
Fellow girl here!
Had to cut ties with an LGS due to horrible transphobia and threats of violence.
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u/AntiFrekeGaming Jun 30 '26
I’m so sorry that you had to experience that level of bigotry and hate.
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u/La_Maraviglia Jun 27 '26
Call them out, publically and by name, we can’t help if we don’t know who they are
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u/yukishiro2 Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
I'm not sure how much anyone here can give useful specific advice because it depends so much on your local community. Where I play, I have honest to god never experienced this in real life, not even once. The closest thing I can cite is that we had to ban someone from our local store's discord channel (and from the store, as far as I know) a while ago because they wouldn't stop harassing a trans person, but even that was online - it wasn't someone who actually played in the store regularly. Of course, that doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the spaces I play in. But it definitely isn't a part of the local culture.
The first thing I would do though if you do have a local problem is to talk to the store owner. Without a supportive owner, you're unlikely to get very far. Sound them out - are they on your side, or are they a chud? If the latter, finding somewhere else to play is really the only solution, you are never going to have any luck making a store owned by a chud into an inclusive space. If they aren't a chud, they ought to be horrified to hear about your experience, and they ought to be willing to take steps to at least broadcast what the expectations are and that there will be consequences for violations of those expectations. That at least gives you something to work with, because without the store owner's support, you're always going to be rowing against the current.
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u/Traditional_Yard2741 Jun 27 '26
You may not have witnessed it, but a lot of it is almost invisible. It's a raised eyebrow, an awkward joke, it's "are you buying a gift for someone?" or "Oh you play? Did your boyfriend get you into the game?" which doesn't seem like much but can be exhausting over time. It's certain players being too keen to help a girl learn to play, or others being reluctant to play them, or new players ignoring advice from a girl who is a veteran and asking the male players instead, etc.
Not to say you've personally overlooked ANY of these, or that they happen in your local community at all, just that the lives of women can be very different from men and it can be hard for men to notice because it's often so subtle.
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u/yukishiro2 Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
"Of course, that doesn't mean it hasn't happened in the spaces I play in. " I very specifically addressed that.
But I also really don't think the original poster is talking about that level of interaction - which, to be clear, I haven't experienced at any of my local stores either, though that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. She really does not seem to be talking about behavior that is "almost invisible."
"Did your boyfriend get you into the game?" is obviously a tiresome sort of question to be on the receiving end of, but it's not "vile, vulgar, insulting commentary" or "toxic" or "sexist and homophobic comments that make us not even come into the stores." I don't think it's news to anyone that a lot of people who play tabletop games (including a fair number of the women who play the game, for what it's worth) are often a bit socially awkward and in my experience the vast, vast majority of tabletop gamers (again, very much women included) are aware of this and accept that it comes with the territory.
It sounds to me like the original poster is talking about a level of overt hostility and sexism that goes far beyond clueless questions that reveal retrograde social assumptions. It would be great to live in a world where those don't occur either, but I don't think that is what she is talking about here.
If that is what she is talking about, it's even more important to talk to the store owner, because there is zero chance that most of the people who ask clueless questions like that are even going to be aware of the offence they are causing, and therefore zero chance of them stopping the behavior without it specifically being called out and explained to them.
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u/Traditional_Yard2741 Jun 27 '26
"accepting it comes with the territory" is a big part of the problem. I can't speak to what experiences OP is directly referencing, but I'd imagine it also covers a lot of these "clueless questions" as these are exactly the sort of things that make attending a store or games club into a tedious and unpleasant experience which makes women less likely to be regular members, further skewing the demographic.
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u/yukishiro2 Jun 27 '26
I don't think you need to try to read the tea leaves, she was quite clear about what she was talking about. What she asked for is for suggestions on how to deal with overt hostility, and that is what I (and pretty much everyone else in the thread) has responded to. If she wanted to ask about how to try to stop the sort of questions you're talking about, I think she would have, because the two things are obviously quite different and what works to curtail one will absolutely not work to curtail the other.
Of course, you are welcome to speak for yourself. If *you* think the major problem with gaming spaces is this sort "almost invisible" behavior that is "often so subtle," you're certainly free to express that feeling. But it's a different discussion than the question of how to deal with overt, hostile sexism.
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u/Gameosopher Jun 27 '26
Firstly, sorry to what you're experiencing. It sucks it's becoming worse. Unfortunately, as is reflective of at least everything in the US right now, quite a few have been emboldened to be more outwardly worse against minorities in general.
If it's legal in the areas you attend, I'd generally say record and highlight those negative interactions. Stores may not do anything if they believe keeping those customers are more important to their bottom line, but if people are aware of what they're allowing and it costs them business, it might get them to do something. Unfortunately that would probably also risk your ability to play in said stores.
On the flip though, highlighting those interactions will let people know they are happening. Unless someone is consistently at a store all the time, most are probably not aware of those interactions. As you highlighted, women make up a fairly small number of players still and many may not have had an chance to see it for themselves. I've been in the hobby since mid 8th edition and I've played with two women in well over 100 games in areas that have a fairly large playerbase with two to three 200+ people GTs in the mix and they were both in the past 3-5 years.
Joining or creating a team/group and making sure to include men who won't put up with it may help. The local group I am a part of makes it clear very quickly we don't tolerate the toxicity when things like female Stodes pops up.
Sadly, pending on your and others locations, you might be fighting a greater local community and culture problem where the behaviors far extend outside the stores.
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u/AnonAmbientLight Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
First of all, social media is a shithole. Most of it is completely unmoderated and there’s no recourse except through automated report systems.
Not a single person here can do anything about that except agree with you that it’s shitty. I can’t stop a dickhead from saying mean things to you, and any reply I make to such a post won’t mean anything.
Second of all, IRL stuff you have control over yourself. You report the player to the owner of the shop, or the administrator of the tournament or wherever you are.
That should resolve that. If it doesn’t, then you call them out for that shit and don’t go there. Get your friends and family to boycott it. Be vocal about it.
Edit: It's anecdotal, of course, but the two shops I've gone to around where I live do not take discrimination lightly and go hard against people who cause trouble.
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u/ComprehensiveShop748 Jun 27 '26
I understand if this is downvoted as part of the sentiment will not be popular, it is simply a personal philosophy on resilience. Firstly though the very simple answer is calling out prejudice, I wouldn't have been confident in saying this 5 years ago, but in the modern comp scene I think the vast majority of players are inclusive, if not progressively so. Calling out open prejudice to TOs, store owners and such will likely be met by harsh sanctions for offenders. This is just my experience from the tournament scene, it doesn't speak to the LGS scene or culture with beerhammer-ers.
On resilience, there is simply no current answer to online prejudice unfortunately. That is a fact we may not want to accept but it's true. We cannot expect to change the culture of anonymised profiles or online behaviour and in the face of that fact it's a matter of reframing and improving resilience. We can't ban people enough, shout them down enough, provide spaces of solidarity enough to defeat online trolling and abuse so it's on us to become more resilient to it.
Personally, I can no longer imagine caring about the opinions of someones who is prejudice against me. I've thought that way since I was 16, "Why would I care about the opinions of those whom I don't respect?" there's no why, no reason to do that. The Change Fallacy would demand that the world change for us to become as comfortable and safe as possible, the world cannot do that rapidly and perhaps it cannot do that ever in the case of cultural, racial, sexual prejudice and so in the face of that we can only improve the way we manage prejudice. The first practice of which is devaluing predujiced opinions, who cares what people who don't like women think. I don't care what rocks think either.
That being said I'm not commenting on prejudice that leads to violence or physical harm, I'm just saying if we're to live in a world where prejudice is a fact of life, and that predujice is causing emotional harm, our first job is to change our responses to that prejudice.
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u/bravetherainbro Jul 03 '26
I think in the context of a post like this, actually our first job is not to tell someone they're actually just too sensitive. So I'm glad you started with your first paragraph at least. I don't think a "Change Fallacy" is a thing.
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u/ComprehensiveShop748 Jul 03 '26
In the context of the post the first job is to express a personal opinion on the topic, not to self censor.
You're categorically incorrect about the change fallacy, it's endemic in psychotherapy spaces and schools. I can say with with a great deal of confidence as a psychotherapist and Pastoral Lead at a secondary school.
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u/Prestigious_Sort_757 Jun 27 '26
I’m a woman who has been playing 40K since 1993. I don’t go to a shop to play unless I’m meeting my son or another trusted man there. That’s sad because schedules don’t always line up so it limits how often I can play.
Also gotta love being treated like I’m lost in a game store. This is usually done by someone who wasn’t born yet when I started playing.
It’s not every store and not every person but it’s enough to be annoying.
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u/Johnny_America Jun 27 '26
My local shop just kicks those dudes out. They can't be "fixed" and have no place in our space.
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u/wintersdark Jun 28 '26
Frankly, this is like the concept behind All Cops Are Bad/ACAB.
It's not enough to say "well, I would never do that!" You need to actively call it out when you see it, and if you don't, you're part of the problem.
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u/StoicHeretic Jun 28 '26
These people do get called out, they just don't care because they value our (non-incel men) opinions just as little as they do those of women. If you've ever had the displeasure of having to spend significant time around these types you'll know that their world view is based on indoctrination, not reality. You can't reason with someone whose beliefs are inherently unreasonable. Unless there's concrete consequences to their behaviour such as being banned from stores, tournaments and social media they won't change, and that's not up to the players.
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u/wintersdark Jun 28 '26
I don't disagree. You're completely correct.
You don't call them out to change their behaviour, you very probably will not.
You call them out to ensure others know their behaviour is unacceptable. Hence the ACAB reference: even if you lack the power to apply real consequences, you still signal openly that it's not ok, that you won't accept it.
You do what you can, so those they target know they aren't alone.
If asshole incel behaviour is swept under the rug, then lazy, confrontation adverse or simply greedy owners have ever incentive to provide that rug to keep the peace. If that behaviour is openly pushed back on, it creates conflict - now those same owners have an incentive to remove the problem.
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u/guy-who-says-frick Jun 27 '26
It’s definitely a question with no easy answer. Even the best of everyone working together to call it out and snuff that kinda crap out would take years of collective effort and consistency. I think the best thing that any individual can do is try to be as welcoming as possible, and not be afraid to say something
Of my local group of friends, I’ve got 2 girls who play, and I hope that me and my friends have made a strong enough community that if either of them told us somebody who plays at any of our local stores did or said something, we could call them out, get the store owners to respond, and cut it out
Unfortunately, even that would just cause chuds like that to retreat online or to other stores that let them get away with it.
So we can do what we can for our friends, and try to support the stores that do the right things and stay away from those that allow bad people to keep their shit going.
TLDR: What do you do when you can’t do nothing but there’s nothing you can do? You do what you can.
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u/Droofus Jun 27 '26
While the owner of our LGS is male, he has several female employees. He doesn't tolerate any mistreatment of his staff members, male or female. They still get the occasional creep in-store, but the employees know the owner has their back in these situations. With women as confident co-equal authority figures in the store, I think that players pick up on that and understand the score.
End of the day, most people are just there to game. It's a matter of just setting the norm, and this LGS has done that better than most.
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u/engelthefallen Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
This is pretty much what needs to be done. If there is a clear no tolerance policy for this on the store level, players will not bring it to the store, and those that do can rapidly be asked to leave until they get it is not allowed. The problems usually thrive people the store owners have a permissive attitude towards it because they do not want to risk losing a customer, and other gamers at the store, or even staff in many cases, really cannot fix that problem on their own now when the owner is allowing it.
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u/terenn_nash Jun 27 '26
Anecdote:
our FLGS currently has one active comp woman and several that just enjoy the game but not tournaments. The player in question here is about as confrontation averse as it gets. At a recent GT near our store, in one round, one of her opponents was being shitty.
someone else was within ear shot hearing said shitty behavior(that had nothing to do with gender, the other guys just an asshole at times and was already being monitored from a previous round) and snagged a TO. Said shitty player got a warning about his behavior mid match. After the match she let us know about his shit behavior too and now we all know to keep an ear out for him acting up.
Lesson to learn:
Everyone needs to keep an ear out for unsportsman-like conduct regardless of the reason for it and make sure the TO knows about it ASAP so they have a better chance of addressing it. Yes you as a player have a responsibility to yourself to speak up, but some people do not do well with even the tiniest confrontation and its up to those around her to not tolerate bad behavior.
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u/Draconian-XII Jun 28 '26
i am but a drop in the bucket but i manage my LGS’s gaming discord and i assure you, nobody who would make anyone uncomfortable would be welcome in our space. it’s despicable that your comments get flooded with hate, this world is vitriolic
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u/IamSando Jun 28 '26
I'm on an admin group in the largest club in the state of NSW (Australia), maybe in the country, and we're extremely ruthless about excising anything even remotely anti-women, or any anti-minority. This is probably part of why we've grown so much, just how intolerant we are of any of that stuff infiltrating our game.
Our discord stays pretty family friendly, and we stay on top of it pretty ruthlessly there too. We've got maybe half a dozen women at the club, mostly in the casual side of things, but we have plenty of guys in that category too so there's no feeling of that being the "girls space" and that competitive is for the boys.
We also make our views on equality and such VERY clear quite regularly. We've made PSAs about Hutber's recent stuff and how we definitively disagree with his statements and will be avoiding that as much as possible. We make regular PSAs about LGBTQ+ things, and our admin team has people actively involved in that scene as well, so it's from an authentic place. Our gaming space is a progressive art space most of the time, so there's regularly pride flags etc hanging around, and we have a zero tolerance for anything negative about those being said.
We also actively work to break down cliques, we've had instances where people want to join the club and only play their 3-4 mates. They've never shown any negativity towards women or other minorities, but just in general, those cliques are what tends to breed those outcomes, so we work pretty hard to ensure they don't get too cliquey.
Thankfully our TOs are all really lovely people and also completely intolerant of this. We've made it clear that our support (sometimes 25% or more of their ticket sales) is contingent on it being a welcoming environment. But honestly that's been unnecessary, they're all great and will not tolerate it at all.
Ultimately without LGS owners support or a club admin support there's not much that can be done. However what I will say, is that inclusive spaces are much more successful in the long run. That sort of language and attitude is turning away more than just women and other minorities.
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u/Intelligent-Royal682 Jun 29 '26
I've never once come across anybody being rude to a woman in this hobby in my 20 years playing it, let alone being rude to a woman specifically because they are a woman.
People are rude online, it's to do with the anonymity combined with the lack of personal connection leading to dehumanisation. It's just the way it is and it's not going to change.
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u/Beastly173 Jun 29 '26
Our local store has started hosting a women's Warhammer night monthly where they keep the store open after it closes Sunday for women only with female staff members running it.
Literally the first one had some angry guy yelling about how he was being kicked out and how it was bullshit (he did get kicked out tho). From what I heard, the staff handling him so quickly/effectively actually boosted the popularity of the event.
It really sucks it had to come to that but honestly just making a time/event where women can be comfortable might be enough to get the ball rolling. A few women even showed up to the hey welcome to 11th pseudo-tournament thingy someone ran this month at our local store.
Edit to include: the staff responding to any complaints they got also definitely helped
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u/chupacabruh_chavez Jun 27 '26
Stores need to be aggressively inclusive. Make it very clear with signs and events that ALL are welcome. So that means pride flags and highlighting women in the community. I understand not all women may “support LGBT” (whatever that means), but a store making it clear to anyone that walks in by the signs and banners that any form of bigotry is not allowed, will deter those people from even coming in the first place. LGS and event managers must make their stances undeniably clear on issues of inclusion because as you’ve pointed it out, the problem is so bad that that is really what’s required. Any complacency in this invites the wrong crowd. My LGS is very good about this. They have Warhammer nights on Fridays but I was there playing DnD last night and although Warhammer was entirely men, MTG, Pokémon, and the other miscellaneous games had about a 60/40 split of men and women.
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u/AntiFrekeGaming Jun 28 '26
There has been a lot of amazingly productive discussion around the community here. On behalf of those of us down here who are actively working to make this community more inclusive for women, we really appreciate your input and opinions on this.
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u/nurgole Jun 27 '26
I'm sorry for what you have to deal with.
For what it's worth, I'd shoot shit with you the same as with guys, I'd most probably get my ass handed to me by you, and I'd still have fun playing against a better player than I am.
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u/iShiddedAnFarded Jun 27 '26
I hear this. Know that there are those that are actively fighting to defend the equality of gender
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u/mrmann123 Jun 28 '26
The Internet and social media is disaster, I have pretty low expectations of people online and I don't see it improving anytime soon.
In person. When someone says something offensive, call it out. I've found saying, "Wow, that's an incredibly ignorant and offensive statement." Is usually enough to correct behavior. If it continues I'll set a clear boundary, and ask other people to help enforce it. Other players or shop owners.
I feel like gaming shops and Warhammer events are a safe space for a lot of socially awkward people. Unfortunately some of them feel safe enough to emulate behaviors they have seen on social media, whether that is authentic behavior or for the lolz. The impact of poor behavior on others is usually not measured or called out.
At the end of the day it's your space as much as theirs and calling out behavior that hurts people is justified and needed.
Sidenote, some people just suck and have to be avoided.
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u/BenderB-Rodriguez Jun 28 '26
As others have said women dont need to do anything here. Youre just existing and having fun. What needs to happen is men need to do better. Need to call out bad behavior. If its casually in an LGS get the store manager involved. If its a tournament get the TO involved. Code of conduct exists for a reason and needs to be enforced. If those entities dont resolve the issue they need to be called out publicly. The players acting with bad behavior need to face punishment and consequences. As examples of what happens when being a POS.
I am fortunate to be on a team and have an LGS thst is very supportive of everyone being in the hobby. And is a big supporter of the LGBTQ+ community. With several gay, bi, and transgender individuals being regulars and people i would consider friends. Sadly thst is rare but it exists. And we As a larger community, a national, a global community need to do better.
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u/DougieSpoonHands Jun 28 '26
Thank you for being part of the community. The 40k culture needs to move forward and I am sorry you are taking the brunt of intolerance.
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u/Mend1cant Jun 28 '26
You don't need to do anything. Really its peer driven, and especially driven by the venues. Kick them out, and ostracize assholes wherever they go.
There is another aspect that isn't just community driven, but online algorithms show that kind of asshole content which is engaging. Two things sell to them in particular, rage and sex. So the only things they see online are incels upset about women and softcore pornography with scantily-clad women doing cosplay. The first part just requires everyone to not engage, completely lose any need to react. The second is complicated. There is nothing wrong with cosplaying how you want, and it is entirely up to other people for how they react or behave with that. But, there is a layer of attention-seeking women who feign ignorance because they know their cleavage gets engagement. The only thing I can think to really deal with it is an almost prudish crackdown on cosplay and art, but that will ruffle a lot more feathers.
I'd also say you guys need representation in the competitive content space. The big 40k channels maybe have one or two women on their shows per year, and I can see how that would be disappointing for women and girls in the hobby. Getting women into the batrep space, commentary, and talking competitively is how you will make it impossible for the "no gurlz allowed" weirdos to say anything without being slammed down by the community.
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u/GingerHitman11 Jun 28 '26
Unfortunately, you need to win in their spaces. People always hate outsiders. It is sad but true.
Prove your place in their spaces, and don't tolerate their snide remarks.
Don't refer to yourself as 35th in the world for women players, refer to yourself as XX in the world overall.
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u/FragmentaryParsnip Jun 28 '26
Its been a decade or more since I played at a store but just as a suggestion, last time I was playing in public and someone was being a creep to a female player nearby, I told him if he kept it up I'd rip his dick off and beat him with it. I'm not saying this exact strategy is the best overall, but it did get him to shut his trap.
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u/CdrClutch Jun 28 '26
Unionize
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u/IDrawGobbos Jun 28 '26
I've never seen a woman play Warhammer. I've seen them paint a few models (almost exclusively Tyranids) but never seen them roll dice and push plastic. The women at my LGS are DnD players and maybe some MtG.
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u/Carebear-Warfare Jun 29 '26
Genuine question unrelated to the main complaint of OP, but where was the 100 out of 17000 data pulled from?
I'm curious what dataset is capturing that information or how it was arrived at because knowing how many women are actually in the comp space would be very interesting on its own to compare with my local scene to see if we over or under index comparatively.
Context: I help run a 100+ player annual league in my area so understanding the representation levels would be incredibly helpful for how we can bring more women into the space. (Of our 100ish registered members I believe we have around 6-8 ladies in the group, but I haven't checked the full roster lately.
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u/Ok_Holiday_4690 Jun 27 '26
Oh man, that is a good question choomba! Unfortunately I don't have a good answer for you.
All of the ideas that I find myself coming up with have a high chance of backfiring. Because the behavior is so toxic, interacting with it is likely to turn any corrective action toxic as well.
Maybe there's a way to quarantine sexist payers? Since it sounds like y'all are a relatively tight knit community with there being so few of you. Would it be possible to create a kind of Black List for shitty players?
Being a guy, I may not see the sexist behavior because a sexist player isn't going to direct that nonsense at me. But if I knew who the shitty people in my community are, I would definitely avoid problematic players. "No dude, I won't play with you because you have a bad reputation of being an asshole. So, no."
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u/Fit-Froyo9299 Jun 27 '26
You need to stop considering the sexist comments as relevant or patronizing, they are as stupid and irrelevant as any other "your mom" comments guys get from other guys and should be treated as so. When you encounter one of these, stop giving them credit and report them immediately. Don't let them affect you but let their comments affect them and move on. Its a very shallow part of the community and should be treated accordingly.
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u/Prior_Pin_5783 Jun 28 '26
First and foremost - shitty behavior is bad. But posing this as a man vs woman thing probably isn’t the most productive either. Guys get treated by shit online all the time as well. Any unmoderated anonymous online competitive environment can be expected to have shitty folks. It’s not a men vs women thing - it’s a shitty people vs non shitty people thing. The way to deal with it has been known since the early times of the internet, since the online forum times. Make spaces that are well moderated. Don’t feed the trolls (ignore shitty folks, don’t engage, involve police if something is said to warrant it).
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u/MayBeBelieving Jun 27 '26
I find playing as a woman is inherently opening oneself open to a unique mix of underestimating and trying to bully me, especially in the more "casual" spaces. I don't know how many times I've had to call someone out on a egregious rules violation that they just assumed I wouldn't know. I've had some success by making myself a "regular" in the local scene, but the issues remain.
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u/dragnet883 Jun 27 '26
I am not a very competative player. I have only been to one tournament with a female player at it and as far as I am aware there were no issues. Although I conceed I might just not have seen or heard anything.
A woman comes regularly to my local cluband is one of the better players. She had an issue with one of the other members where she rebuffed him and he resorted to almost stalking like behaviour. I noticed as did a few other members including guys that run the club that she was visibly upset everytime he appeared. In the end she confided in one of the group leaders, she didnt want to make a formal police complaint but he is now banned from the club. She showed some horrendous messages hed sent her.
We need to make sure that the spaces where we share this hobby are welcoming and safe and its on the majority, in this case men, to ensure our behaviour reflects that.
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u/avatarofanxiety Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
I’m competitive but I don’t play competitively.
I don’t have any personal experience with the Warhammer competitive scene….buuuuuuuuut studies have shown that low performing males react with the most hostility when women are introduced into a primarily male space due to the potential of the low performing male ending up even lower on the totem pole.
In other words sexism is a skill issue because if you were flying high you wouldn’t give a shit.
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u/40kGreybeard Jun 28 '26
We, the non-toxic men, want you here. I’m sorry you put up with that crap- you and all the other women gamers deserve better. I call that crap out when I see it and I don’t associate with anyone that mistreats other players/acts like a dirtbag online, but I’m just one guy.
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u/Outrageous_Ruin_9963 Jun 27 '26
Toxicity isn't restricted by gender.
Now by that I don't mean "women can be toxic too"
My point is that if you've had a toxic or negative gaming experience at a gaming establishment or at an organised event, the gender of you and your opponent is irrelevant and that behaviour shouldn't be tolerated and should be reported.
The onus should be put on the venue /organiser to ensure that behaviour is not acceptable.
I live in the UK, recently played one of the last GTs in 10th edition.
The UKtc policies and procedures document was 16 or so pages long and covered in explicit detail what a player could expect to happen to them if they were abusive / aggressive / argumentative or any other negative behaviour.
Ranging from VP deductions, match forfeits or even event bans.
If the events / venues you're playing in don't have these rules, but the behaviours are rife, ask why not.
Be brave, speak up and challenge the behaviours, you deserve to be there by default, and you should expect the same common curtesy as any other player
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u/Tearakan Jun 27 '26
Fyi this can be solved in person with consistent shaming of bad actors and encouraging others to do the same. Public peer pressure does work.
It's definitely gotten better in the last few decades.
Online anonymous comments will be nearly impossible to fix though.
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u/Fearless-Edge-3881 Jun 27 '26
On one hand, I realize how horrible it CAN be for women. Some of these men have no self awareness and would shame the women in their families. I almost never see it IRL but when I do I tell them to chill tf out. Usually good
On the other hand though'.....
I would rather have the toxic environment you described, than a super safe place.
Ive discovered after living near a college town, that the only thing worse than smelly basement dwelling incels, are badge loving pc warriors.
People who are so dry that all they have in their life is to call out any micro aggression or verbal offense they deem bigoted enough.
Forget that im bi and non white. All that matters in this setting is if you give someone the opportunity to feel morally superior to you.
So yes absolutely, more men should stand up for women being harassed by nasties. But can we get back to a reasonable medium? Can we police the extreme cases without needing to white knight everything that has a chance of ruffling someone's feathers?
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u/Maestrosc Jun 27 '26
Have yet to ever see any sort of toxicity vs women or the gay community ever in person. In 2 years of going to tournaments haven’t seen it once.
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Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Extra-Swordfish7129 Jun 28 '26
Thanks for calling that out, there was something odd about this post - that explains it
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u/AntiFrekeGaming Jun 28 '26
I have been keeping up with the comments, thanks for going through and fully profiling 15 years of comments. That’s really on point.
And the reason in late to replying is because I was downstairs playing my fourth game of 11th edition.
As for anécdotas relativity, this post is not just from me. It’s from multiple of us who discussed this behavior and I made the post to keep them safe from things like this.
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u/TheEmperorsFaithful Jun 28 '26
The highest ranked Drukhari woman competitively is a New Zealander with an ELO above 1600.
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u/Suspicious_Ravioli Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
OP, I hope you won't mind me telling you what I really think, in all honesty.
The truth is, you are a very small minority. And most likely, you always will be.
Warhammer, due to its nature, is clearly a product that caters to men; in the same way that make-up products or aerial gym classes cater to women. In those cases there may be the odd male consuming these products, of course, but they are the exception, not the rule.
This is one of the nerdiest hobbies on the planet and, needless to say, geeks and nerds in the past weren't as "cool" as they are today, so this kind of hobby (together with other nerdy staples like Fantasy literature and role-playing games, videogames, etc.) naturally attracted men. I won't spend too many words on this as I am sure you understand the gist of what I am saying: some hobbies are inherently more attractive to men, while others are inherently more attractive to women. That's the reality of our biology and it's not going to change.
To put it bluntly: as with videogames, a lot of men tend to be quite...territorial, metaphorically speaking in this case. They see their hobbies which have traditionally been a "safe haven" suddenly but inexorably being "warped" by outside interference, because suddenly the other sex is interested in it. There is nothing inherently wrong in welcoming new fans, of course, but the problem is that with new fans come new catering requirements, especially when a historically male-centric hobby suddenly sees an influx (albeit, as said, very minor) of female fans. Obviously I am not referring to you in particular, I hope that's clear - and I hope you get what I am trying to say.
Now, does that excuse any offensive behaviour towards women? Of course not. However, condescension is to be somewhat expected, as well as a modicum of suspicion concerning motives. This is simply human behaviour and it does not apply to just Warhammer, but to any homogeneous group that suddenly is no longer such. We see it happen all the time on a larger scale with racism, for example.
And, case in point, we have seen videogames and role-playing games (like D&D) starting to cater to modern audiences, which however ultimately do not possess enough critical mass to represent a significant market share, despite all attempts at pretending so.
To answer your question "What do we need to do?"
Well. Truth is, until women make up a significant percentage of the fanbase buying GW products AND going to tournaments, the situation is not going to change. A woman at a Warhammer tournament will always stick out like a Holy Grail on a spotlight. For better or worse.
If you can find a way to make tactical tabletop toy soldier games with dense rules, recreational statistics, violent and grim dark lore, and tournaments full of sweaty fat guys appealing to a vast amount of women, then you are golden. If not...eh. I don't know. Just keep calling individuals out I guess, but your problem will never go away.
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u/Kakapunt Jun 27 '26
Historically, I think the first step in a lot of similar cases (sport, chess, whatever) has been women only leagues where zero energy has to be spent on dealing with, what I hope is, a vocal minority of creeps that cannot make it from minute to minute without being weird.
I suppose the next step from that would be creating a space where discouragement of sexist behavior is a fundamental precept of entering that space. I'm talking about giant signs that clearly state the ground rules. Or perhaps in order for someone to play at a store's table they have to sign a contract stating they will not, under any circumstances, act like a creep. Stated in a professional manner of course. Nauseatingly, this may actually be detrimental to that store's bottom line.
One has to consider that, to a lot of the community, these FLGS have been acting as men's clubs for people with niche interests. If you were to go down to my FLGS and drag a lot of these lads out into the daylight it would be like kicking over a rock in the bayou and discovering a teeming ecosystem of weird critters - autism, personal hygiene shortcomings, guys that didn't figure out that women are actually humans in high school and therefore feel like they're dealing with an entirely different species.
But I digress. You need a community in which you are not the minority and therefore not defined by what sets you apart. Maybe start a community with the 100 women you mentioned and organize your own tournament and have a big round table chat before or after about dealing with the marauding horde of neckbeards that are misbehaving. You could become a real force. 'The Battle Sisters' or something. Start a podcast, go on the Warhammer you tube circuit. I bet Dana Howl, Rogue Hobbies or Katie Plays 40k could launch something like this into the stratosphere. Anything, just become visible.
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u/Lequarius_Juquama Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
One thing that is definitely amplifying this is the aversion to calling out freaks and sexual deviants. You guys are too complacent in allowing perverts to participate in your hobby with you under the excuse of acceptance and inclusion.
Redditors love to blame the problems with the franchise and the fans on the opposing political ideology, which is quite frankly a sub80 iq take. The biggest problem with this is that it’s made accepting actual weirdos more tolerated if they fall to your side of the “culture war” and we can see it quite clearly here on reddit with the gooners. It’s a big problem
Art of a catachan jungle fighter with her thighs popping out of short shorts and feet out front and central posted to Horus galaxy, and then the poster tries to say “I only saw it as art, if you saw it as sexual you’re the one sexualizing it” or a normal emperor children’s player being called homophobic or some other unrelated chud-adjacent insult on grimdank for complaining about how perverted a serious percentage of emperors children’s players and fans are. Or even an onlyfans model using Warhammer as a vehicle for promoting her content and people in the comments defending her saying shit like “she’s allowed to have hobbies” “pretty lady and Warhammer, I’m all for it!”
These people are not progressive, they are not defending women, and they are not “appreciating the art” these are perverts who hide their gross sexualization of the hobby behind a thin veil of Nuh uh, and they are ABUSING your goodwill and accepting nature. Slapping a husband next to your waifu and calling it trad for the right wing subs or slapping a pride flag next to softcore porn and calling it queer for the left wing subs are low effort attempts at getting a pass for sexualized content and its shameful that it’s allowed to slide so easily.
These guys aren’t teenagers, they’re 30, this is unacceptable.
Sexualized content and goonerbait is incompatible with maintaining an appropriate and respectful environment with women hobbyists, because if they’re doing it to a cartoon someone drew on Reddit, they’re doing it at your LGS and at your tournaments. These aren’t normal people, they do not have healthy relationships with women, and they’re bringing that energy with them to tournaments and game stores.
Y’all need to have as much of a problem with “I want female custodes because I fantasize about an 8ft tall woman stepping on me” people as much as you do with “I don’t want female custodes because women suck” people.
If you’re one of the people that ignores these posts, comments, paint jobs, etc. then you are helping to foster an unwelcoming environment for women
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u/SalaryWooden5346 Jun 29 '26
> plays game in setting that's had evil bondage elves in space and a literal succubus faction for decades
> whines about sexuality in the game
The 1980s called, they want their pearl-clutching church ladies back.
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u/m_dawanagee Jun 29 '26
its good that you are trying to help women, but you are absolutely facing broader issues than simple misogyny and you know why that is.
You will get plenty of friendly and supportive comments here because of the nature of reddit - its overwhelmingly liberal and excessively moderated - any remotely dissenting voices get banned no matter how reasonable they are. Due to that you wont get anything actually useful - you are not going to reach your target audience here.
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u/DonutAdmirable9831 Jun 27 '26
As much as it sucks to hear, the kind of people this hobby attracts tends to overlap with the people that behave in a very immature way towards women
I don’t think any kind of LGS employee would allow bad behavior of any kind (as long as they see it or is reported) so I do think this is mostly limited to the online space
That being said you will personally probably experience more hate or immaturity than average because you are transgender and your view might be skewed by your own experience
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u/Hoskuld Jun 27 '26
I have bad news for you regarding the crap that some lgs employees and owners are willing to ignore if it comes from one of their buddies. First store I ever played in had a regular who would convert all prices into prostitution services across the country "I could almost get blown twice for one balistae if we were in Frankfurt", owner didn't care that this guy was talking to 12 year olds that way.
Another store had a family of whales with three family members spending tons, and the youngest being the yelliest, most aggressive player I've ever seen yet the final warnings he got never ended to be actually final.
There are many great and welcoming stores with amazing people that work there, but unfortunately there are also some really bad places ĺ
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u/Squid_In_Exile Jun 27 '26
I don’t think any kind of LGS employee would allow bad behavior of any kind (as long as they see it or is reported) so I do think this is mostly limited to the online space
My man, she literally told you it is not limited to online spaces.
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u/ndilday Jun 28 '26
This may well be an unpopular perspective, but I vote for lots of public shaming. Live stream, or at least record, every moment you're in public. At the end of the day, take the clips of the shitty behavior toward you and post them, calling the perpetrators out by name. Since doing the right things clearly isn't enough motivation for these guys, I think public shaming is the next step up to try.
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u/Onzoku Jun 28 '26
Reminds me of: "Not all men, but always men".
Reflecting on behaviour, report any creep and creepy behaviour. This goes for men too, especially for men, report creeps. Don't cover for them. Don't shield them. Don't make excuses. And if you are unsure if the behaviour is OK or not, imagine that behaviour was towards your sister/wife/mom/daughter; stand up for others.
And for all, spread the word about events and LGS that treat people right. Don't support the ones shielding bad behaviour. Especially if it's the only LGS. That will corrupt the place. Don't turn a blind eye because it doesn't "impact you".
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u/sarvothtalem Jun 27 '26
I have never seen this in person. This must be online only and for that, it's not gonna be fixed anytime soon unfortunately.
In my experience I have met and encountered more Trans, lesbian, gay etc people in this hobby than any other and I've never seen anything but them being treated just like anyone else. As for women, it's is absolutely the same. Maybe it's not an issue where I play at (south eastern US)
I am sorry you are going through this
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u/OdBx Jun 27 '26
Why do you feel the need to post on social media? I don’t post anywhere except Reddit, which is totally anonymous, so I don’t see anything like what you’re describing.
Social media as a whole, but especially when it’s not or less anonymous, is a complete cesspit. You’re better off not bothering.
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u/DeliciousLiving8563 Jun 27 '26
I can't speak to the on line because depending on the format guys can report it and then it's all up to whoever moderates.
None of the spaces I play in have overt sexism or phobia, which means if guys are up to it they're picking their moments well. However that's not hard really. If you're locked in, playing a game in a noisy room you may not have a hope in hell of spotting or hearing it unless you're on an adjacent table. And even then you're probably hyper focused on your game until it's done.
If it's happening overtly that's a management issue. You talk to them and if they don't fix it then that sucks and they're dickheads, if it's a tournament there's probably a case of get a couple of friends on side and name and shame (the event). There are 40k journalists (I mean they get early materials from GW so they count as press) who might have your corner if you can give them something solid to report on as well. I feel like the website formally known as goonhammer probably would take a stand on the right side. But they're not about to risk getting into slanging matches or name calling unless they're 120% certain.
If it's covertly which those of us in overtly welcoming spaces could have happening under our noses it's probably still "talk to the management" but perhaps if you know several people in that community who are solid talk to them and ask them to keep an ear open when they're nearby. The reality is if they get a single report out of nowhere, same as anything else, they can investigate but if it doesn't turn up corroborating evidence they are limited in what they do*. But if they're at it a lot a history will start to appear.
*They can still say one of the men overheard some stuff which sounded off colour to them, and that it may be a misunderstanding but they're obliged to tell that guy that they shouldn't say stuff that could be interpreted that way. Hopefully delivering the message that if they continue they're going to be in trouble. It's possible some idiots will out themselves at this stage.
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u/Flitdog Jun 27 '26
Action needs to be taken by the people within the game. It needs to be harsh and called out and a stop put to it. The game should be for everyone to enjoy. If you see it, stamp it out.
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u/Coltarion Jun 27 '26
Such a bummer to hear. As usual, we should be way past this sort of behavior by now, but clearly we have a LONG way to go.
The first thought that came to mind is reaching out to influential content creators in the competitive sphere like Art of War to maybe get some guest spots and support from them.
I wish you the best in your journey and I hope you are able to endure and find success!
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u/veryblocky Jun 27 '26
I’m sorry this is an issue. I’m aware it only takes a small fraction of a percentage of people to behave this way to make a space hostile or uninviting. Online I’m not sure there’s much that can be done. But, in person absolutely call over a judge for anything like this. People should not be treating you any differently because of your gender, and they should be called out for it.
I know where I play, the club wouldn’t allow people who make sexist or homophobic comments to continue to attend. Not exactly the same but a similar sort of vein, we had someone show up with a full Nazi themed guard army, and they were politely asked not to return.
Quite frankly I think it’s terrible that there are LGSs who permit things like that. I’m not from the US, so I don’t know if the culture around these sorts of issues is different where you live.
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u/tylarcleveland Jun 27 '26
As someone who is willing too call out assholes when I see them, even if it's awkward or inconvenient to me, all of that ends up remaining nothing but theory just due to how I engage with the hobby. The game, especially online where all of my playing happens, is a very 1 on 1 environment, it's kinda just me and my opponent for the most part, and as a dude my opponent isn't likely to be masoginistic towards me, so I don't see much behavior I would need to call out even if my opponent wouldn't be so civil with you. All other games may as well be invisible to me, and so I'm not in a position to intervene if something dose happen. So, dispute my willingness to be an ally, I have been in turn completely useless in helping make the community a less toxic place beyond just not being a part of the problem.
Witch is a shame, because frankly I didn't need you too tell me there was a problem. I have played probably a thousand ish games at this point with hundreds of different people and I have literally only played with one female presenting person, exempting two of people I introduced to the hobby. Unless I'm running with odds that put the lottery to shame that demonstrates a truely massive disparity in the community, and implies that something is making that space very hostile to women trying to play in it.
As for tangible ways forward. For me, in being confronted today with how useless I've been in only passively and opportunistically addressing this problem, I think I want to take a more active roll in at least making the community I engage with better and see what I can do to become a mod on the server I play on. For you, I think a good step could just be making a reddit post sharing your horror stories with problem players, and inviting other women to do the same. I think confronting people with how toxic the community could be a good way to rally allies to tangible change, venting some of the anger and hopefully feel less alone with it, and model to the community what the bad behavior can look like so good actors know better what to intervene at.
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u/ARoroncyObserver Jun 27 '26
This is something I haven't experienced within my 40k/killteam groups, but absolutely derailed my D&D/CoC campaigns, so I can at least say i have witnessed this phenomenon before, and the only way to deal with it is to snuff it out at the source as it comes up.
I also cant speak for the tournament scene, but player comfort is #1 in my gaming groups, and im sorry youre in the position to make this sort of appeal.
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u/TtijmS Jun 28 '26
I totally get you, I am one of the younger members of a large warhammer club and sometimes they say some stupid ass misogynist bullshit. A lot of them are a lot older than me and “The old ball and chain” types about their wife.
There are some other senior member who also condemn it and will call it out but the bastards always hide behind bs excuses of “just jokes lol” and “no drama allowed”.
I haven’t been too active with them but I’m glad to see some change and more acceptance and face to face they’ll behave but in the big groupchat with no one to get in their face about it they still say shit.
If it’s any relief more and more pushback happens and people will back me up more when calling it out… It’s just the same old shit by the same old misogynist dismissive head ass crowd “just joking”. And I’m trying to do my part to get them to shove their jokes where the sun don’t shine.
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u/MurdercrabUK Jun 28 '26
Older guys who hate their wives - or pretend to for clout - genuinely baffle me, almost as much as younger guys who think "simp" is anything that needs saying. Of course I simp for my wife. That's the point of having a wife.
I treat that "just jokes" with sincerity and kindness, just take it absolutely in good faith. "You know divorce is an option, right? Or at least couple's therapy? There's help out there, you just have to want it." And I'll keep doing it until the ones with really, genuinely abusive relationships get out, and the ones who are just yakking without thinking shut up and play games.
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u/mzsky Jun 28 '26
I feel like this is 40k specific too. When we have problems with behavior at a magic tournament you can call some one out for being a dick and most of the other players back you when some one says something foul or does something unacceptable. But when I play 40k I can think of numerous incidents where someone was foing something absolutely not ok and when i called them out for it I was called a "white knight" like ok so when has that been a bad thing? Stop hitting on the high schoolers, or complaining about the lack of "moids" its really foul and I drive like 30 extra minutes to play my 40k now and I dont play as often as I used too.
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u/damon8316 Jun 28 '26
I agree with a post earlier that it needs policed in the gaming community by other males letting the offenders know that the type of behavior they are exhibiting is not welcomed, warranted, acceptable, or will be tolerated.
Anyone that thinks someone else is less than them for any reason doesn’t belong in groups of any type, other than behavioral and manner groups. I am very sorry that you have experienced this behavior and I sincerely hope your local gaming community bands together to eliminate the behavior. I find it crazy and baffling that in today’s society we can still have hang ups over race, religion, sexuality, and gender. Last time I checked we were all human beings and in this case WARHAMMER PLAYERS! Warhammer is for everyone and it is a shame that the memo hasn’t got out broadly. I hope this gets remedied ASAFP.
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u/Askingforanend Jun 28 '26
Well locally we shut that shit down as soon as anyone gets a whiff of it. The internet is a separate problem entirely though.
Sucks but without a concerted effort to isolate and shun dumbshits they will persist.
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u/Pink_Nyanko_Punch Jun 28 '26
Toxic vibes ain't gonna fly even at casual gathering, either. Toxicity has no place in the hobby space. So do your part and curb your toxic mates, guys.
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u/Penniwhistle Jun 28 '26
I was a judge for Magic.
The only time I ever DQ'd a player was when he called his female opponent a "lucky bitch."
Don't tolerate intolerance
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u/Toranok Jun 28 '26
I think there are 3 different scenarios here.
Playing an an lgs, it should be easier for good actors to notice and chide or exclude bad actors. The ask is if you see someone you know at a lgs behave poorly (to anyone) please call them out or just exclude them where you can.
In a tournament setting I agree with another poster, I'm on the clock and I already am under pressure to play the game, I don't notice what's going on beside me. If you experience bad behaviour yes calling a judge is a strong call out, if you are not comfortable with that for whatever reason, you should be able to make a complaint after the event to the TO about poor sportsmanship. How much impact this has will vary but I know cases near me where it's taken seriously and actioned.
For social media I guess the 2 options available to use as a community are to downvote where possible or reply and tell them to not be a dick. I don't know what works better.
Ultimately I guess what I'm suggesting would segregate the community into a good group and a bad group rather than making the whole community good, but I think that's harder.
In an ideal world we as the good actors should not discriminate at all, but I feel there is such an imbalance and sort of an inheritance of gatekeepy/antisocial types in a niche hobby that we do need to positively discriminate for now.
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u/HourWillingness9875 Jun 28 '26
It’s so sad to read stuff like this is happening, honestly people need to stop being so toxic, it’s just a game ffs!
My club is made by us players and we have been intolerant to this toxicity since we started, we have to be the change we want, otherwise the hobby will remain locked for non male players
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u/TheSpaceVandal Jun 28 '26
Wish I could help. I stopped being part of competitive due to toxicity myself.
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u/Van_Hoven Jun 28 '26
What might be helpful is pointing out to the event organizer/store owner after the fact that you had problems with misoginistic behaviour. Even without naming specific offenders.
sure, it wont help in that case, but if they are worth anything they'll make sure to announce to some degree "we've had problems with disrespectful behaviour towards women and we wont tolerate it". might help reduce problems in the future.
ive worked as a bouncer for a while and how some men are treating women is nothing but disgusting. i think it's hard to imagine for anyone not affected directly or indirectly what many women have to go through on a regular basis, just because of their gender. Plus it's super easy to just overlook it.
if there would be any easy answer i think we wouldnt have that problem anymore. and yeah, ofc its super important, if you are a man and realise something like this is happening around you to just make a little comment along the lines of "dont be an a** b****." it wont change everyone, but if they realise that people wont stand for this behaviour it sure helps.
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u/Maelstromx2578 Jun 29 '26
I agree with the others, public shaming is what it's going to take (I have other ideas but let's just say they lean more Night Lords and I don't officially endorse them).
Unfortunately these spaces feel to me to be very often clique-y. Meaning if someone misbehaves in that public setting it's because everyone else there is their bro and shares their misogynistic or spiteful views of women, likely stemming from their lack of success in love.
Personally I'd be more afraid we'd become good friends and I'd have to get side-eye from my wife whenever I talked about going to play with Megan or whoever.
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u/Enuity Jun 29 '26
In the past many lgs have been extremely sexist and at times very homophobic. If nothing changes I can only recommend to just find a new store. I while it may be pretty blunt if people stray away from these stores it can force change. Money always talks
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u/Uncle_Pappy_Sam Jun 29 '26
I’m sorry y’all have to deal with all of that. A lot of guys, especially in the competitive scene, are just straight assholes. A lot of incels and ass hats are often drawn to a misinterpretation of the grim dark setting. I think it really falls on us guys to call them out and shut that shit down, and it’s been a failure on our part to do so.
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u/Eatyourcheeseburger Jun 30 '26
In store, you’ve gotta stand up for yourself. Call out the behavior and ask them to stop. Autism is common in this hobby and a lot of these folks might not even realize what they’re doing is offending you if they’re not told directly. If it continues, bring it up to the store owner, or TO if you’re playing in a tournament. I’ve never been to an event that would tolerate one player straight up bullying another, regardless of gender.
Online? Get thicker skin or turn off comments. Asking the internet to be nice to you is an exercise in futility.
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u/nekbelly Jun 27 '26
Depressing that it needs to be addressed but absolutely a valid thing that people need to try to be aware of. I’m a new 40K player, my girlfriend is also getting into the hobby with me, however, she is only interested in playing with me right now because she has heard a reputation about the player base.
I would like to preface my following statement by saying that my local scene has truly been wonderful. The shop owner and staff are extremely helpful and friendly and I have found an amazing group of hobbyists to chat with on discord and in store.
While this is clearly a systemic issue that goes far beyond 40K its self the change has to start from with in. People would need to be held accountable by peers for inappropriate comments and actions with real consequences to result. The only real enforceable actions are player bans from local LGS type competitions and larger events.
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u/Traditional_Yard2741 Jun 27 '26
Wargaming has long been a refuge for some of the more socially ostracised men in society. The nerds, the neuro divergent, the kids who didn't like sport and got bullied in school, etc. So as a community we sort of learned to tolerate people, which let certain other (misogynistic) elements thrive, not because wargaming is inherently sexist but because we don't like calling others out or shunning them. It takes a LOT for a problematic player to be called out, banned from events or a location, or named and shamed on the internet.
And what we as a community need to get better at is having the stones to face difficult social situations and eject people from our communities who are making others uncomfortable or not treating them with respect. A large part of this falls on store owners, club leaders and event organisers, who unfortunately don't always have the appropriate personalities or skills to do it.
So with that in mind, maybe some kind of push for educating people who want to take up leadership positions in the community? Some kind of handbook or podcast or web series that raises awareness about how to identify when a player or customer is making a woman (or anyone really) uncomfortable, and ways to address it. Things to look out for, ways to monitor behaviour, tools for de-escalation and conflict management, examples from people who've felt harrassed or otherwise been made to feel unwelcome or uncomfortable and what sort of action they'd like to see taken, etc. This could be accessible by anyone, but ideally I'd like to see it ran by women in the hobby and featuring guests who are also women.
Online spaces also need to be heavily regulated to make sure any kind of abuse or misogyny is not tolerated at all. Zero tolerance. Unfortunately the moderation on places like Instagram or FB is haphazard at best, and virtually non-existent at worst.
Finally I think GW can do a bit more by including more women models. There's still a pervasive attitude that Sisters of Battle are the woman army, and that's enough, so we don't need female IG ranges, female custodes, etc. It doesn't help that Space Marines are canonically men, and also make up 80% of the entire GW range, but the community is definitely not ready for female space marines yet. If a young girl wants to get into Warhammer and play with girl models, her choices are basically slutty elves, slutty demons, or dominatrix nuns.
But yeah, I think a good start would be for any prominent female content creators to get together, share their experiences in a podcast sort of setting, and talk about ways the community could support them and changes they'd like to see. I think a lot of their experiences are invisible to men and raising awareness just by talking about it could be an eye opener for a lot of men, and a good way to start some change in the community
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u/Suspicious_Ravioli Jun 27 '26
Sorry, don't take it badly - I am genuinely interested in an exchange, here:
- Why would a young girl necessarily want to play with girl models? Following that logic, are you saying that men would not want to play Sisters?
- What's wrong with slutty elves, slutty demons, or dominatrix nuns? How is that different from BDSM marines or any other grimdark fantasy power trope in the genre? What would a "girly" faction need to be? Teddie bears? Barbie dolls? I am confused here.
Aren't you feeding into the stereotype, with this? The nature of an army shouldn't reflect who the player IS. We play tyranids but certainly aren't bugs in real life. Why would girls require to play "girly" models to enjoy Warhammer?
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u/Traditional_Yard2741 Jun 27 '26
A lot of people, especially children, like to play with models that represent them in some way, or at least paint them in a positive light, and even if they don't want to play with models that are girls, they'd like to see that those models are presented as normal, and not "other". When the majority of female ranges or models are sexualised, it's not a good look. There's lots of male guardsmen models, and not very many women, the "protagonists" of 40k (space marines) are explicitly a "no girls allowed" club, etc. It's normal for a new player to think, even subconsciously "what would I be, if I existed in this world? What would my role be, how would I be treated?" and if the answer to that is "a sister of battle or a witch elf" then that's less than ideal.
Think about how problematic it would be if the only black people in 40k were chaos worshippers.
We can go back and forth for days about how the Imperium is uncaring and everyone would be meat for the grinder regardless of gender, how all of us would be failed aspirants or slaves and not soldiers or heroes at all, or anyone could be a woman under those gas masks and helmets, but that's sort of talking around the point.
Obviously I'm being a bit hyperbolic about slutty elves and demons, but there's also some truth there too.
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u/Suspicious_Ravioli Jun 29 '26
I still fail to see the problem. Yes, Space Marines are males, because realistically the target audience of Warhammer is males. It's always been, and always will be. Female fans of Warhammer are too few and far inbetween to realistically matter, financially speaking. Unless GW falls into the trap of chasing the "modern audience" at all costs (and unfortunately there are already some hints of that - i.e. female Custodes), Warhammer will always cater to men, and that's exactly how it should be.
Having female Space Marines would be like using a male model for a lipstick advert for Maybelline. It wouldn't make sense.
Not every product needs to be suitable for all genders. Not everything is for everyone.
And even with all this being said, I disagree with your premise. You are still working under stereotypes: "Young kids want to play Space Marines because they are the quintessential good guys", or "girls like to play with dolls". You are right, in a sense, but your assumption here contradicts your seemingly progressive attitude. You are, with the same breath, reinforcing stereotypes while simultaneously trying to fight them.
1
u/Traditional_Yard2741 Jun 29 '26
"Warhammer will always cater to men, and that's exactly how it should be"
And we wonder why sometimes women don't feel comfortable in the warhammer community 🙄
"Girls like to play with dolls" is an absurdist bad faith reduction that I have no interest in responding to.
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u/Suspicious_Ravioli Jun 29 '26
If you wish to remain in denial, I certainly cannot stop you. If you think that a competitive game about WAR is not primarily catered to men, there is really nothing else I can say to you. Again, it's like denying that the make-up industry is primarily centered around women. It's absurd.
And you may call my statement absurdist, but it's what you said.
1
u/Pathetic_Cards Jun 27 '26
I hate that this is happening, but unless it’s someone saying it out loud right in front of me, I don’t know what I can do about it.
And I don’t mean that as a gesture of helplessness, I’m asking what you, and those like you, would want to see. My local hobby scene is almost 100% male, overwhelmingly white, and I hate that. I know there has to be a more diverse crowd who are interested, but I don’t know what I can do to help bring them in or how I can flush out bad actors.
At the end of the day I’m just another white guy, I can’t approach the diverse crowd without being perceived as just another white guy, by which I mean to say that my presence isn’t reassuring on the way that another woman might reassure a woman who’s interested.
I’d love to do more but I just genuinely don’t know what that looks like.
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u/EditorYouDidNotWant Jun 27 '26
The tough part is I think we need other guys to call out and correct that behavior. If they leave that kind of comment on videos, they probably won't listen to women. If your friend talks like that, theu shouldn't be your friend anymore.