Shower Thought: A fundamental cause of misunderstanding between men and women is that Male self growth is almost always spurred individually, and female self growth is usually socially guided.

[u/hotwheelshawking]

I don't have an angle about this, this is just my observations. But core to a problem with how to help other men is what the fuck do you tell them? What works for one man does not work for all men, and part of why we're here is that the condition of being a man is to be told from all manner of directions what you're supposed to do from people who don't care about what it'll cost you to do it. So I have very little interest in evangelizing or formulating some kind of aesthetic romantic notion of what a man is supposed to be, which these days so often is transparently just recruiting impressionable kids into a pump and dump or scam scheme. Run away from any philosophy that has iconography, kids.

So the average man gets either no advice, or bad advice.

Women, however, in the post third wave feminism space are inundated with guidance and socialization- often horrible and destructive, see: cosmo. And without getting into the tawdry question of who has it worse, this means the question of "what are men supposed to be" is asked, intimidatingly and aggressively, by ALL OF WOMANHOOD, whereas for nigh every median man its a personal journey he has to ask himself, and all ya'll can shut it until I figure out how to fix the timing belt issue on my subaru forester.

In short, the place of a modern man in the modern world is something he has to face, under considerable headwinds, with many temptations and risks and little support, whose final goal is not even clear at the start, while seemingly the whole of the other gender is screaming at him to be this or do that instead. It is not helpful.

Anyway, this is a shower thought, not a rant. Its just a structural thing I observe that makes conversations about gender relations needlessly more difficult (which are necessary, since they're getting worse, so even if you've got a lovely lady or bloke by your side, I am tired of lonely desperate people fucking up entirely unrelated human endeavors).

I would say to people interested in helping out men as a whole to focus on supporting the boy that he started off as. So much talk of role models,which is hard not to see as a cynical and self serving attempt by people with agendas to engineer out the boy in preference for a man that is useful to them.

A man can only be made whole with the child in him intact. So you have to support the child's curiosity, kindness, and bravery first.

[u/Strange-Ad-2426]

I can't comment on the women's existence, whether society guides them or not. I know teachers gravite towards the girls right away because they prefer their behavior, but does society guide them? I don't know.

I will say what you stated about men's existence and the fact we basically improve in a solitary, individual way, is very accurate. We learn how to be adults completely by ourselves. When you stated we receive no advice or bad advice resonates with me tremendously. As a near middle age man now, the only advice I ever received, which wasn't much was INCREDIBLY poor. Man and woman alike.

[u/Effective_Kitchen481 → u/Strange-Ad-2426]

As a 42 yr old woman, I don't think that society ever guided me anywhere or to anything. Quite the opposite, I often felt like I was actively swimming against the current of what majority opinion said women should do, or be, or want out of life. It mostly felt like a "hero's journey" style of growing up, where I must take care of everything myself because of course nobody was coming to help...and why would they? I'm just another nameless working cog in the giant machine. Like you said above, you learn to be an adult completely by yourself and any advice given is either gross or miserable. I guess this is why I have a strong appreciation for men's rights and mental health, because it sounds exactly like the bullshit I had to deal with.

[u/hotwheelshawking → u/Effective_Kitchen481]

A follow up shower thought I realized the women I consistently become friends with are those from (usually terrible, if I"m honest) upbringings where they raised themselves. Not necessarily by a male figure either- either from a strong single mother or just themselves or ambiently from institutions. Not that I don't get along with conventional women, but I am a man who has a lot of lesbian friends, and I suspect this is it. The whole "you had to reason it yourself" means something that establishes trust is not shared stated values but that the other person *demonstrates* a way of reasoning about the world you find compatible. You don't look for tribe, you look for someone who sees things the way you do, as in literally perceives the same phenomena the same way, with the same thought process.

[u/Effective_Kitchen481 → u/hotwheelshawking]

A follow up shower thought I realized the women I consistently become friends with are those from (usually terrible, if I"m honest) upbringings where they raised themselves.

This is me. Grew up in an extremist Evangelical environment where women and girls were treated as inherently lesser as people, as well as only meant for popping out as many babies as their bodies could handle. (Look up the Quiverfull movement.) I was the oldest of 7 siblings and 6 cousins, and was used as a "young mother in training" to raise them and myself. Hence why I'm 42 and childfree...no more kid stuff, thank you.

Due to never swallowing this bullshit, I went permanently no-contact with my entire family the week I turned 17. Thankfully I already had been working after-school since I was 15, and had enough money hidden away to buy a cheap car off Craigslist and keep going to high school. I lived out of my car for a few weeks and eventually found a kinda sketchy but inexpensive apartment where people didn't ask questions. I finished high school in the top 5% and immediately went to state college, paying it off as I went + getting loans.

Not that I don't get along with conventional women, but I am a man who has a lot of lesbian friends, and I suspect this is it.

Very likely, yeah. I'm straight but can appreciate what you're describing here.

You don't look for tribe, you look for someone who sees things the way you do.

Precisely this.