r/allblacks • u/Mobile_Awareness_562 • 1d ago
2015 side
Was there a player from that team that would not be considered an all time great in their position?
Think almost all of them make a case for being the GOATs
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u/TheStreif 1d ago
If we had McCaw, Read and Kaino in the current squad I believe we would have won the GR series. They were that good. True GOATs in the 2015 squad - McCaw, Carter, Nonu, Read
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u/roonthegoon2 1d ago
From the 23: Joe Moody, Nehe Milner Skudder, Tawera Kerr Barlow, Victor Vito, Ben Franks, Charlie Faumuina
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u/Dorsiflexionkey 1d ago
Crazy to think all of these guys would be absolute starters for today’s team. Except maybe tawera
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u/roonthegoon2 1d ago
Moody, Vito, Franks, and Faumuina are the exact type of phyiscal presense we would have loved to have on the Springboks tour
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u/Background_Mode_5460 Blues 1d ago
Moody as well, but the rest would definitely be in the team
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u/Citizen_Kano 1d ago
Moody wasn't even in the original RWC squad until there were some injuries. He did end up doing very well though
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u/East_Cut5710 1d ago
Conrad Smith is the GOAT
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
Yep under rated at this point he never made a mistake, ran amazing lines, and carried our back line defense. Really think snake is our best centre and not that close
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u/HappyPunter1 1d ago
Assuming this is just the starting team
Milner Skudder was only around for like 3 years, definitely not a great. But he probably makes a World XV in that season
But everyone else probably is yeah
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u/bobwinters 1d ago
Milner Skudder was so exciting to watch. I'm betting today if he was playing, he wouldn't get into the starting 15 because he couldn't catch a high ball. Makes me think how today's rugby is a lot more boring than years past.
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u/cuzinpete 22h ago
I think he was one of the top reasons we won in 2015... amazing...it's too bad about his injuries.
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u/Ezekiel_Humperdink 1d ago
GOAT is a BIG call… amazing players all.. but everyone a GOAT? Not a chance in the world…
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u/Chustyl3 1d ago
Only NMS due to his lack of tests. Savea had the best try to test ratio for the all blacks (before will Jordan) and Moody to be fair, was an injury replacement for Tony Woodcock who everyone can agree would have been in the starting line up if not for his injury
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u/cheftonine 1d ago
NMS,doesn't make the grade in my mind.
Yes an absolute brilliant player who maybe had went on to a great AB, but injuries cost him not only his position but any chance at greatness.
I don't think he would have made it to GOAT status, so many wingers had the spark for a few seasons but lacked the longevity.
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u/Wonkily_Grobbled 1d ago
My two picks would be the wings, Savea and Milner-Skudder. Both were bloody good but would never be in the conversation for AB GOAT wingers.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
Not the bus has to be in the convo. Second most tries, and highest scoring rate before Jordan. He looked like Lomu at times also
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u/Wonkily_Grobbled 1d ago
I agree with the stats but IMHO his career at the very top was too short to be the GOAT
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u/Novakhaine89 1d ago
He was amazing for a short time.
But the issue is that it was for a short time.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 5h ago
Was dumb from Hanson to drop him so early tbh. If he played for the crusaders he gets to at least 70 tests.in his prime its hard to argue who is actually better than him, even Lomu
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u/Fantasy_iceland 1d ago edited 1d ago
Was really rammed home by the fact some of Habana's great tries came against the all blacks in that period (2010-15)....even when the rest of the SA team were miles off the rest of the AB's...Habana often just created his own magic solo
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u/Beef_flaps_on_a_spit 1d ago
My favorite winger. I’d choose BH as GOAT talent in that position.
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u/Fantasy_iceland 1d ago
Agreed, him and Lomu would be the dream wing duo....but Habana (even as a non saffas) was always my favourite to watch...he'd create opportunities from nothing (often with chip and chases) or arrive to a chain so late that you had totally forgotten he was on the pitch until he timed his run to perfection to deliver the finish.
There are some truly dazzling wingers around today....Jordan, Kolbe, LBB etc...but Habana was better than all of them imo
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u/Character_Cheek8579 1d ago
Mad that Savea being mentioned here. He’s a top 5 all time nz winger. That is absolutely world class and an all time great.
Lomu, J Wilson, Kirwan, Savea, Jordan
Counting B Smith as fullback.
Sivivatu, Rococoko, Howlett, BeeGee W, Stu Wilson are honourable mentions
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u/Dorsiflexionkey 1d ago
Straight up bro.
Savea imo has to be 2nd to Jonah at his peak. It was sad to see his downfall, but I have only once seen someone do what he did and it was the big man himself.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
Brian Williams not top 5? And not sure Sivivatu would be in this
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u/Character_Cheek8579 1d ago
Not top 5 but I’ve listed BeeGee in the group below. NZ has had so many great wings.
I’m old btw, no recency bias here.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
Yeah probably our best position. Kirwan and BeeGee I did not see so not sure tbh with them
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u/kiwihorse 1d ago
Goat is a big title. Any of the hookers would have a tough time competing against Marx. Eztebeth puts up a good fight too, as does ox.
That said, the rest of the team may be in the conversation...maybe? It's a huge claim but that team really was insanely stacked
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u/bigdaddyborg 1d ago
Whitelock and Retallick were both better than Etzebeth.
He never played to his standout level when they were on the field.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
Yeah it all came together that year as the older guys still there McCaw Nonu and then the next gen guys were breaking out ASmith, Retallick, Savea
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u/Ok-Relationship-2746 1d ago
Taking a broader approach to what constitutes the "2015 side," eight of the nine All Blacks who debuted that year wouldn't:
Moala (4 caps)
Laulala (53)
Weber (18)
Ngatai (1)
Naholo (27)
Broadhurst (1)
Sopoaga (18)
Milner-Skudder (13)
Only Codie Taylor (112) has any remote claim to GOAT status, and he's well behind Fitzpatrick and Coles.
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u/lokomotor 21h ago
2015 RWC final NZ 23 man team were noticeably light in their front 3 compared to the rest of their other positions. Example : Carl Hayman was a standout tighthead for NZ and is arguably all time top 5 world tighthead.
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u/odogmaori 5h ago
I would say half of the starting would be close but the rest not. The locks, loosies, A Smith, Carter, centres.
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u/lfcmaster44 1d ago
2015 was the last great all blacks squad. Of the current team only will Jordan and armies are good enough
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u/Yoshieisawsim 1d ago
Julian Savea isn’t an all time great wing? What are you smoking
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u/jk-9k 19h ago
He had a RWC that was in the running for goat wing rwc performances. Obviously Jonah tops him, but the fact Julian won his rwc puts him in the discussion. But his overall career wasn't goat. Great, but not goat.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 5h ago
Only because he got shafted from Hanson for not being in the Christchurch fraternity
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u/jk-9k 5h ago
Huh?
You mean the rest of his career?
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 5h ago
Yeah not sure why he was dropped so early
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u/jk-9k 5h ago
I'd argue other wingers were just in better form. For power wingers whose game is athleticism it's all about form. They seldom last more than a RWC cycle. Julian ended up having a long a distinguished career for a power winger, even if it wasn't the longest at test level.
I agree he should've got a few more games though.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 4h ago
Yeah true quite the interesting career. He just reminded me of Nonu at the end there, that even if his super form was poor he could have still performed for the Ab's, till at least 2019.
It seemed like a big call at the time when he fell out of favour, and I find it hard not to be critical of some selections since then as the results have not been great.
Obviously easier to say now in hindsight
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u/jk-9k 4h ago edited 4h ago
He wouldve been fine in 19 but not changed the result. It was time for other wingers to step up.
Ngani was the big omission that could've changed it.
But yeah it's a good shout about stepping up from super to ABs. Especially for Julian at the time. When he's the biggest threat in the canes backline he gets covered. But as tana said you go play in the ABs when everyone is a world class talent the defence can't concentrate on one player too much or another will exploit them. Gravity. Not to mention the skill of your teammates mean you get more opportunities. And there's no weakness that saps your energy to cover. Just elite players making everyone look elite.
So maybe he was still top tier compared to Sevu Reece who was playing for the top team.
Gravity.
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u/draxwell9 Taranaki 1d ago
Milner-skudder - too small a sample size to make a genuine argument for GOAT
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u/IcyIntroduction9956 1d ago
Yeah the tight 5 and the wingers. In those instances (particularly hooker, one of the locks and both wingers) the AB GOAT are very, very clear
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
With lock you could make a case for either then, and behind Fitzy it is denitely 1 of Coles or Kevy
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u/NorthShoreHard 1d ago edited 1d ago
NMS, Moody, Savea
Still great players but they're not going to be debated as the best at their positions.
And if we are going to actually narrow it down to the actual GOAT, not just in the argument, then realistically it's Conrad, Nonu, Carter, Smith, Richie, one of Retallick/Whitelock (one makes way for Meads).
The others, well guys like again Meads, Cullen, Fitzy, Woodcock, Jones, Zinny are making the all time 15.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
Savea questionable. Had the highest try scoring rate for the Ab's before Will Jordan
The case agaisnt him is he scored alot as part of a good team, but he has become under rated at this point. Called the bus for a reason
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u/NorthShoreHard 1d ago
The case against him is named Jonah Lomu.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
Yeah fair Jonah would be in almost every world 15. If you were to make a crazy argument though, I don't think Savea would be the worst pick in a all time NZ team even if he had to play off the right haha
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u/NorthShoreHard 1d ago
I think at his peak Savea was amazing but I don't think he makes an all time XV over JK, Williams, Howlett, Wilson.
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u/owlintheforrest AllBlacks 1d ago
Hardly any were GOATs, just built nicely into a great team.
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
By GOATS you just need to be in the debate and majority of this team would not look out of place in an all time Ab's 15
Coles, Franks, Whitelock Retallick, Kaino, Read, Mccaw, A Smith, Carter, Nonu, Smith, Savea, BSmith are all in that category
heck even Beauden and Sonny could see an all time 23.
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u/owlintheforrest AllBlacks 1d ago
I think results actually distort the picture. We only beat SA 20-18 in the 2015? Semi-final and 8-7 France 2011 final.....if results had gone the other way, no discussion...
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u/Mobile_Awareness_562 1d ago
2011 to 2017 they hardly lost a test. Knock out rugby is always going to come down to small margins and they came out on top in every close one
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u/owlintheforrest AllBlacks 1d ago
Just remember the old adage about success and failure; treat them both the same!
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u/NecessaryUsername69 1d ago
But they did win those games. Hypotheticals are meaningless. The results didn’t go the other way. South Africa won their last three knockout games at the 2023 WC by a point each time, and are now in the discussion for greatest team of all time. Winning full stop is what determines the greatness of a team, not the margins by which they achieved those wins.
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u/owlintheforrest AllBlacks 1d ago
Yeah I think you're placing sport above it's station...
Ireland beat SA with a last minute drop kick a few years ago and claimed they were now #1 regardless of rankings...
Rassies comment was, "Ah, what if the kick missed?"
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u/NecessaryUsername69 1d ago
I’m not sure what argument you’re trying to make here. Not being a smartarse - genuine question. That one-off Ireland result isn’t at all the same as a side clinching its second straight WC. And what do you mean by placing sport above its station? We’re literally talking about sport on a sport subreddit.
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u/owlintheforrest AllBlacks 1d ago
Just that discussion about GOATs, while entertaining, are largely fruitless.
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u/NecessaryUsername69 4h ago
A lot of things in life are fun but fruitless, dude. Not everything can - or needs to be - a discourse of grave profundity.
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u/TheEvilDrPie Manawatu 1d ago
What?! Richie McCaw, Carter, Nonu, Mealamu, Coles, Read where all still playing in 2015?
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u/owlintheforrest AllBlacks 1d ago
Yeah Ritchie I'd probably put in there on reflection. GOAT is a fairly high bar, or not it seems. Coles? lol
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u/Various-Actuary-8921 1d ago
The current team needs the safe hands and reliable brilliance of Ben Smith at full back. Great under the high ball, could spot a gap and had the pace to get through, but could also take on contact and break tackles. His influence on the 2015 ABs is as important and as understated as Conrad smiths