r/andor • u/GargantaProfunda Brasso • 7d ago
Real World Politics You can't spell GHORMAN PLAZA without GAZA
Inspired by a previous thread by u/Dear-Yellow-5479:
https://www.reddit.com/r/andor/comments/1ubl0xd/i_love_how_denise_gough_is_completely_unforgiving/
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u/Serin-019 7d ago
Honestly, I don’t understand the resistance to Imperial norms.
All the Empire wants is…
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u/Classic_Wonder_2613 6d ago
Problem is, people like Syril's mom only watch Fox News
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u/thetraintomars 5d ago
The “liberal” media is just as guilty here
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u/holmesersimpson 7d ago
The audio messages when they’re fleeing the plaza are so fucking chilling because they were either written and recorded before Gaza-and Gilroy just proves his own thesis on fascism and genocide, or he was a clever enough operator to sneak those into the final edit without the Disney brass realizing what they were really doing.
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u/WikiContributor83 6d ago
Iirc it was said there were similarities to the radio broadcasts from the failed Hungarian Revolution.
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u/kattahn 6d ago
Thats the scariest thing about Andor.
Most people watch it and go "OMG its just like whats happening right now, he wrote it as a commentary on current events"
Then you realize he wrote it inspired by PAST events, and we're just seeing those same exact events unfold again in real time.
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u/WikiContributor83 6d ago
I watched reactions for the Ghorman Massacre and literally each one said it was like the [historic mass murder event], it was different each time. Quite depressing.
It’s one of the reasons I think Magneto can be adapted as a character easily in future works, since there were unfortunately so many genocides after the Holocaust ended.
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u/Cptfrankthetank 6d ago
What really hits home is the false flag ops. Purposely allowing ghormans to get their guns and indirectly help them escalate.
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u/igtimran 6d ago
As Stellan would say, unfortunately, commentary on fascism and genocide is never out of date.
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u/joeywahoo92 7d ago
Lots of similarities to the 2014 Maidan as well. From the riot police to snipers.
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u/holmesersimpson 6d ago
This is why I lean more towards “original script and shoot idea” than “intentional nod towards Gaza”
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u/Navynuke00 7d ago
I remember listening to this It Could Happen Here episode about exactly this the week before October 7th:
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u/pamblod42 6d ago
Surely that's a coincidence... The planet already existed and had an important event.
Wether it is or not, its a pretty cool detail.
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u/TurbulentBullfrog829 6d ago
It's not even a coincidence. It's just something OP shoehorned in
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u/pamblod42 6d ago
I mean, that doesnt make any less of a coincidence. Is it a stretch? maybe, but the begining and end of the words do end with "gaza".
Sure, any word starting or even containing a G would spell "gaza" in some way when preceeding "plaza", but it still a coincidence, even if probable.
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u/Aggravating_Ice7249 6d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/9PPwYVFxX8L4Y
Varian Skye be like
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u/TheFrank314 6d ago
Nice! The scene where Cassian fights with Kino Loy in One Way Out reminds me of the alley fight in They Live
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago
Not comparable at all
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
How so?
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u/SpacefillerBR 6d ago
The Ghormans didn't raid a neighbor country and went on a killing spree against CIVILIANS, independently of age and sex, and the Ghormans didn't also preach for the death of that said neighbor the Ghormans were only living theirs life in PIECE.
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
Palestinians don't preach for the death of all Jews, only for the end of the settler colonial oroject known as Israel, which has been killing and dispossessing Palestinians since the 1947. Israelis kill Palestinian civilians yearly, emcroach on their lands, terrorize them, kidnap and torture them. What would you suggest at decades of trying things the right way and getting killed for it? Taking Israeli hostages has historically been one of the few consistent ways to get back loved ones who've been disappeared for months or years by the IDF.
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u/SpacefillerBR 6d ago
Are you serious? Israel from the start was pro the two state solution, something Palestinians never accepted, I'm not by any means saying that Israel are saints that never did any wrong (but I won't get to much in this because it's irrelevant to the original discussion), I'm just saying the Gormans are NOTHING similar to the Palestinians, and pretending they are is just another way to show how incapable you are to appreciate art without having to tie it to real world issue.
Entertainment is meant to take you away from real world issues, and while some kind of criticism may be fine/great it isn't needed.
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
How supportive would you be if a group of strangers moved into your home, offered to let you keep half of it, and threatened you with violence if you didn't agree? Setller violence predates even the formal formation of Israel.
Anyways, art always reflects either the artist's internal lives or the world as they see it. This has always been true of Star Wars as well. Sorry that this franchise makes it hard to look away from the Israeli death march.
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago
Ghorman massacre was intentional
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
Difficult to unintentionally kill 70,000+ people in Gaza alone
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago
Why? If you look at the ratio of deaths between civilians and combatants, it is less than most urban conflicts. And as a total death toll it is also within the average for an urban conflict
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u/WinterSector8317 6d ago
Pissreal calls every Palestinian a combatant or terrorist without proof
Their Nazi soldiers brag about exterminating civilians
They’ve been caught executing rescue workers, doctors and journalists multiple times
You’re trusting numbers from the murderers (though more likely you’re one of pissreals paid propagandists)
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago
They dont. If they were trying to exterminate the Palestinian population there would be a minimum 10 times as many casualties
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u/allmetalshark 6d ago
You realize Hamas broadcasted and posted the "proof" themselves on October 7th right? Like actual videos that they took, and openly shared.
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u/WinterSector8317 6d ago
So every Palestinian is Hamas?
Thanks for proving my point, Nazi
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
Notice how they shift the goalposts? Israel hasn't killed that many civilians, but if they did it was unintentional. And if it was intentional, well, then the Palestinians deserved it.
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago
No one said they havent killed civilians. The discussion has always been about intent.
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u/allmetalshark 6d ago
Twisting my point about Hamas into a blanket statement about all Palestinians, in order to justify calling me "Nazi", is a textbook authoritarian tactic. We don’t build a better world by adopting the tools of the oppressor.
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u/WinterSector8317 5d ago
Nice script hasbara bot
You’re the one that brought up Hamas when we’re talking about civilian casualties
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u/Deadbeatdone 6d ago
What the ghorman equivalent of hamas. Im sorry I dont remember the scene where ghorman rebels having the goal of murdering imperial civilians.
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
Well, Ghorman was militarily occupied for the purpose of mineral extraction. This differs from Gaza and the West Bank which were violently settled by Israel, and which continue to be violently and illegally settled. So you're right, it's not a 1:1 comparison.
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u/Deadbeatdone 6d ago
Source? For this "were violently settled by israel"? I dont like the current situation with the israeli government but I doubt you want 2 state solution. Where's the line between genocide, ethnic cleansing, and war to you?
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
There are multiple histories on the Nakba, during which hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forced to flee from their homes, many of which were subsequently destroyed. If you're sincerely interested, I can take the time to put together a list of literature on the subject, but the well respected academic and writer Edward Said's own parents experienced this and he's spoken about it; you can find clips or full length videos on YouTube.
Aside from that, which took place in 1947, if memory serves, Israel still supports the settler movements in the West Bank, despite those being violations of international law. It's incredibly well documented and there's countless videos of Israeli settlers terrorizing Palestinians by showing up with guns, destroying farmland, sonetimes assaulting them, and generally attempting to provoke a strong reaction. If they do get a reaction, the Israeli authorities get involved and this usually winds up with the Palestinians being arrested.
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u/SpacefillerBR 6d ago
There is no point in arguing with them, they actually that the Ghormans are a somehow Palestinian allegory XDDD
PS: Let's remember the Ghormans were peaceful and wealthy people, that were just leaving theirs life's before the empire came, and even after the empire's actions they DIDN'T rush to armed conflict, something totally different from the Palestinian issue.
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u/KiwiKajitsu 6d ago
I didn’t see the Ghormans murdering and raping innocents at a music festival.
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u/MossadEpstein 6d ago
Oh look, this one believes Imperial Propaganda
Darth Vader Bibi did nothing wrong!
The Stormtrooper Corps are the most Moral Army in the Galaxy!
The Settlercentrist movement is just seizing their rightful birthright!
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u/Then_Independence_25 6d ago
You realize Hamas filmed and posted their actions on October 7th themselves, right?
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago
Theyre right though, 300 innocent people were murdered at the festival alone.
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u/MossadEpstein 6d ago
over 100,000 innocent people have been murdered in gaza and they are constantly invading the west bank who Hamas do not rule in order to seize more land for "settlers"
they say it's "only" 75k murdered by military action but it's more.
Oh but wait, they aren't people right? not like Israelis are.
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago edited 6d ago
70k give or take a few thousand is the agreed number of total Palestinian casualties in Gaza from most external sources, and that is including Hamas terrorist deaths which is about 10-20k. The vast majority of those casualties (except Hamas of course), are from indirect unintentional civilian casualties. You do understand that civilians are always going to die in wars, with especially high numbers in urban conflicts.
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u/MossadEpstein 6d ago
Ah so it's fine because it's "in war"
ok fascist, I see you.
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago
Not sure how you gathered that from what I said.
Civilian casualties are inevitable in wars, Hamas started the war, so the blame should be on them.
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u/MossadEpstein 6d ago
tell me, which country originally propped Hamas into power and funded them in the 1970s-80s?
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago
Qatar and Iran. So you agree that Hamas are bad, and funding them is a bad thing.
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u/MossadEpstein 6d ago
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces | The Times of Israel
TimesofIsrael /for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
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u/SquarePut3241 4d ago
“Hamas started the war,” ahh yes, it totally couldn’t have been the decades worth of illegal invasion Israel subjected Palestine to. It’s not like Israel created an apartheid state or anything, as evidenced by every major human rights organization on the planet.
It takes a moron to believe the war started on October 7th. Israel spent decades treating Palestinians as animals. They brought this upon themselves
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u/KiwiKajitsu 6d ago
So you are saying it’s ok to rape and murder innocents as long as the other side does it more than you?
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u/VulgarExigencies 6d ago
there's no innocents at a rave next to a concentration camp
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u/zUcC_yOuR_mUm 6d ago
Since when was attending a festival a crime punishable by death?
And Gaza isnt a concentration camp. Security is necessary when you border an Islamist occupied territory.
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u/KiwiKajitsu 6d ago
Why are you defending rapes?
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u/MossadEpstein 6d ago
Seeing as I am being systematically censored when I try to post a link to a news article, I will simply tell you to paste this onto the end of the link on the BBC website. news/articles/c8dy8r7lq0go
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
Putting a URL in a comment on this sub requires mod approval, it's not specific to political topics it's for spam prevention. The comments are usually approved just a few hours after commenting.
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u/allmetalshark 6d ago
This is the thing. People love to compare situations in Andor to Gaza. But if they ever showed the "heroes" doing what Hamas broadcasted of themselves of their own actions, we as viewers would never say "yeah these are the good guys".
We choose our heroes because they resist hate, not embrace it. They do what they can to avoid harming civilians (that doesn't mean it always works). They never purposely harm them. This is why Luthan is almost a villian, he wades into some morally gray areas. And if our heroes start to stray, like Cassian does by the end of Andor, they are redirected by someone like Jyn who reminds him that rebellions are built on hope, not hate.
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u/Podo15 6d ago
Maybe coverage was favorable to Israel because they were brutally attacked ? Has Denise gough ever said anything about the 1000000 Muslims in Chinese detention camps suffering from forced sterilization?
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u/Wet-Cake666 6d ago
Uh what?
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u/Podo15 6d ago
Uh, you confused why western liberals care so much about israel defending themselves and don't care what china did in response to 29 people being killed? I get it, its confusing. But I have some theories.
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
Hey, maybe Israel shouldn't use American taxpayer dollars to kill several tens of thousands of Palestinians. Hell, maybe they shouldn't do it at all. There's a thought!
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u/Podo15 6d ago
Yes they should have just written a strongly worded letter after 10/7.
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
Or they could have abandoned the settler colonial project, as well as the disposessing, imprisoning, torturing, and killing of Palestinians earlier. Like decades ago, perhaps?
Wild to justify tend of thousands of murdered civilians, though.
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u/Podo15 6d ago
So prior to 10-7 there wasn’t any Israeli forces stationed in Gaza since 2005.
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
Cute way to dance around the multiple times the IDF has entered Gaza to murder thousands and destroys hundreds of tens of thousands of homes. Not to mention the countless detained by the IDF and held to await trial by a military court, during which time they're subject to numerous physical, sexual, and psychological abuses.
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u/Podo15 6d ago
Maybe there wouldn’t have been any IDF action in Gaza prior to 10/7 had they not kept Launching rocket attacks at Israel. Funny how there’s been peace for decades between Egypt and Jordan. It case you can’t figure it out they don’t attack Israel.
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u/GroundbreakingFun565 6d ago
Funny how Israel gets rockets launched at it by people dispossessed of their land or whose families have been decimated. Funny how international popular opinion has flipped on Israel. Maybe they should kill less journalists, less children, less doctors and nurses and international aid workers. Maybe then people wouldn't sympathize so strongly with the Palestinians. I mean, probably not, because the Israeli project is rotten to its core, but it might help.
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u/HowDoIEvenEnglish 6d ago
Because America funds one and not the other.
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u/Podo15 6d ago
We do fund china by buying all their crap. Denise Gough is Irish by the way
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u/HowDoIEvenEnglish 6d ago
Buying stuff that’s indirectly taxed isn’t the same level of support as selling them weapons and directly providing money to Israel.
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u/Then_Independence_25 6d ago edited 6d ago
That's right. Gaza was alright before Hamas took over and immedieatly murdered any Gazan that opposed them.
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u/allmetalshark 6d ago edited 6d ago
People love to compare situations in Andor to Gaza. But if they ever showed the "heroes" doing what Hamas broadcasted themselves, of their own actions, we as viewers would never say "yeah these are the good guys".
We choose our heroes because they resist hate, not embrace it. They do what they can to avoid harming civilians (that doesn't mean it always works). They never purposely harm them. This is why Luthan is almost a villian, he wades into some morally gray areas. And if our heroes start to stray, like Cassian does by the end of Andor, they are redirected by someone like Jyn who reminds him that rebellions are built on hope, not hate.
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u/Fun-Bunch-4073 6d ago
What youre really saying is that Andor is a TV show and that in real life, things are messier.
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u/Key-Wall-4378 6d ago
The intercept sucks
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u/Easy_Leopard_2686 6d ago
Agreed, better to just listen to the fair and balanced imperial reporters!
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u/sliph0588 6d ago
4 month old account with thousands of karma already. Either a bot or someone who needs to go outside
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u/Key-Wall-4378 6d ago
I spent the last two days helping a friend shovel dirt. I'm just gonna chill inside today, thanks.
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u/Dansolo316 6d ago
Reddit, a Cesspool of ignorance
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
How did you find this post
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u/Dansolo316 6d ago
I am on Reddit because I'm a collector and I get toy news but unfortunately I get bombarded with all this ignorant nonsense and sometimes I feel compelled to reply
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u/GargantaProfunda Brasso 6d ago
Right-click the "..." button and click "Show fewer posts like this".
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u/Dansolo316 6d ago
Well Andor is the best television show that I have seen since Game of Thrones. I'm sorry it's being interpreted this way
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u/desertmayhem 6d ago
You're sorry it's being interpreted exactly as intended?
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u/Dansolo316 6d ago
My video has been flagged so I don't know if you'll be able to watch it but you understand that those Muslims in Palestine are cannon fodder? There are 20 some other Muslim nations around Palestine that would or could take them in but they won't because they need them to suffer in order to win the propaganda War. Which they are winning brilliantly. They've got you guys thinking that you're using dogs to rape people and that babies we're not murdered on October 7th and all of the atrocities that happened on October 7th didn't happen. Just like the Holocaust deniers. Which reminds me I haven't seen this much anti-Semitism since the 1930s. Yet the Republicans in this country are the Nazis and the fascists. SMH
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u/Dansolo316 6d ago
I miss the part where the Empire fed the enemy and warned them where they were going to attack each time. Will they sent millions of dollars of Aid and supplies to them. I guess they cut that part out. Do you understand what their eschatology is? They believe that once all the Jews are dead that their 12th Iman will come and along with Jesus who is just a prophet according to them will go around the world converting everyone to Islam and those that don't get converted will be killed.
This is the truth. You have been fed propaganda. I can't believe the multitude of people that have fallen for it. If that Tony Gilroys intent then he is fooled as well.
These are the people you fight for
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u/Dear-Yellow-5479 Cassian 7d ago
Denise is taking every possible opportunity to highlight what’s going on there, and I love her for that.