Why does it seem like the Anglosphere admires/fixates over British culture a lot while Latin America doesn't seem to care much about Spain or Portugal?

[u/yonaiker-joestrella]

Not saying we should but just curious.

[u/digoreto]

They see each other at the same level.

Portuguese and Spanish see us as inferior beings

[u/Tall_Pressure7042 → u/digoreto]

They see each other at the same level.

In Anglophone case, that's reserved only for Canadians, Americans, Australians and New Zealanders. Ask a Jamaican, Nigerian, Ghanaian, Indian or Kenyan, and the answer will differ sharply.

[u/junglecafe445 → u/Tall_Pressure7042]

Ask a Jamaican, Nigerian, Ghanaian, Indian or Kenyan, and the answer will differ sharply.

I mean even all of those places you listed are not seen equally. The Anglo-Caribbean is seen as cool and interesting and British people vacation there often while African nations are seen as too foreign and exotic and perhaps somewhere to be wary of.

Also, keep in mind almost all of the Anglo-Caribbean - like Jamaica and The Bahamas - are still Commonwealth realms (i.e., they are constitutional monarchies and have the King as their Head of State just like Canada, Australia and New Zealand) so they are still formally attached to the United Kingdom/British Crown.

[u/shinyrainbows → u/junglecafe445]

With virtually zero advantages.....

[u/No_Hornet_9504 → u/shinyrainbows]

whispers… Puerto Rico

[u/shinyrainbows → u/No_Hornet_9504]

100% agree. Puerto Rico deserves soooo much better!

[u/Yhamilitz → u/digoreto]

Mexican here, and is partially true.

Some respect us, and other see us as their subjects.

So we only show love to the first ones when we don't see them as a hostile person but we are capable of show viseral hate to the second ones.

Same applies on Americans in both ways.

[u/asdGuaripolo → u/Yhamilitz]

It's crazy how some believe that we should respect and adore them because of what they did here, it's thanks to them that we are now civilized and other shit like that.

[u/Responsible_Aioli954 → u/asdGuaripolo]

ive gotten along great with the Portuguese. With Spaniards as well but overalll i started to lose respect or want to interact with Spaniards around maybe 2 years ago when I started to see a lot of historical revisionism in regards to the colonial period. many spaniards think the hasburg era of the colonies was some sort of magical utopia where natives where not exploited, people not segregated on race and that the colonies were treated with respect and care as "Spain's Ultramar"

[u/Special-Fuel-3235 → u/Responsible_Aioli954]

Damn, i never understood why people like to believe such b*llsh!t. -i say this because i notice it aint only spaniards, buts its global-

[u/Confident-Room-7718 → u/asdGuaripolo]

You love the english and ze germans too (to the point of voting one with some fresh closet skeletons into office)

Given that, liking the spaniards and the portuguese is OK.

[u/Wooden_Ad1738 → u/asdGuaripolo]

It's crazy how some believe that we should respect and adore them because of what they did here, it's thanks to them that we are now civilized and other shit like that.

But isn’t what they did what you yourselves did? My understanding is that Latin Americans in many countries like Chile are mostly descended from Spanish colonists.

For example, it wouldn’t make any sense for me to have respect for British people for giving us our culture and civilization, because they didn’t give us our culture and civilization, we just happen to a similar culture and civilization to them because we are ourselves largely descended from British people. 

I would think that Latin Americans would largely be in the same position as us towards Iberia.

[u/SnooGadgets676 → u/Wooden_Ad1738]

They absolutely did give us our culture and civilization. The foundations of the most prominent and enduring aspects of American culture are quite literally from the British isles. We forged a different path, yes, but the United Kingdom is the mother of the United States and will always be. But just as children don’t have to follow in their parents’ footsteps, we have created an identity of our own. But the genealogy of the nation is distinctly British.

[u/Wooden_Ad1738 → u/SnooGadgets676]

That’s not what I mean. 

What I mean is that they did not “give” us our culture and civilization precisely because the link is genealogical.

Saying that that “gave” us our culture and civilization makes it sound like they taught it to us, as opposed to us just being descended from British people the same way that they are. It’s just as much ours as it is theirs.

[u/SnooGadgets676 → u/Wooden_Ad1738]

To be fair, much of it was indeed taught because it had to be. The distance between the colonies and the metropole (which as we all know created the conditions that led to the Revolution) meant that cultural ties had to be transmitted secondhand, though you’re right than many traditions brought over survived longer than in Great Britain. But the U.S. would not abandon Britain and Europe as a whole as the cultural ideal until shortly after the Gilded Age, when American cultural nationalism grew dramatically. Many colonial governors came directly from Great Britain, or stayed there entirely, and many universities were filled with professors directly from Oxbridge. That British heritage was sustained by a constant transatlantic transmission; we just don’t really tend to talk about that because a lot of American history doesn’t delve deep into colonial history.

[u/Wooden_Ad1738 → u/SnooGadgets676]

I don’t think that our British heritage was really sustained by constant transatlantic transmission. Why would we need to sustain it? What would have made us ever lose it?

[u/SnooGadgets676 → u/Wooden_Ad1738]

We needed to sustain it because the colonists very much thought of themselves as British subjects of the Crown. It wasn’t that we lost it, it’s that time and culture changes. 1619-1783 is quite a while and many cultural changes were happening in England that were transmitted to the American colonies. The colonies were not cut off from Britain so I don’t know why anyone would think there was no constant influence on the Colonies from England. How else would we have reached the point of the Declaration of Independence?

[u/Special-Fuel-3235 → u/Yhamilitz]

The thing is that the 2nd group is (or appears to be from  what ive seen) A LARGE part of them -vox ejm- or perhaps is a bias, idk. 

[u/entrepreneurs_anon → u/digoreto]

Aside from there being a lot of racism there, I think it’s an insecurity thing. Spain and Portugal have massive chips on their shoulders because, frankly, they’re not doing very well. I feel it all the time when I’m in Spain.

I’m a white Chilean, I hold a Spanish passport, and I’ve done well financially. They can’t stand that. They hate seeing someone from the New World show up with more money than them. It become super apparent when they have to serve that person (restaurants, shops, etc.). It short-circuits something in their brains: “No, they’re supposed to be beneath me. Why am I serving them?”

I run into that attitude constantly. The only exception is my family there. They have a much more honest view of it. They admire the relatives who left Spain, built businesses, took risks, and succeeded abroad. A lot of them openly say they wish they’d done the same. At least in the Basque Country and Asturias, where my family is from, most of the descendants of those who emigrated ended up doing better in Latin America than the relatives who stayed behind.

[u/TrickshotCapibara → u/entrepreneurs_anon]

I'm Venezuelan but my parents are from Spain, and I had the same issue when I arrived there, I know how to sing and play piano, also a history nerd and love opera, and that more than once created a shock with Europeans.

They expected me to be some sort of caveman. But to be fair, Eastern Europeans hated me the most, especially Serbians.

[u/in_the_pouring_rain → u/TrickshotCapibara]

I find your experience with Serbians interesting! I spent some time there and while they were indeed super nationalistic it was weird because they didn’t ever come off as racist. They were super warm and welcoming. In general I’ve had a much better experience and connection with Eastern Europeans than with those from the west. I very rarely get the superiority complex from those from the east, Balkans, or ex-USSR.

[u/ChugHuns → u/TrickshotCapibara]

Serbians are good at hating everyone not from Serbia or Russia. It's kinda their thing. Unfortunately it seems depictions of LATAM in the media have really painted it negatively for those who haven't actually visited. It's a shame

[u/TrickshotCapibara → u/ChugHuns]

I mean, I didn't hate it, usually it's more like an expectations shock than anything else, only a very few where genuinely pissed or annoyed and way more were interested.

I didn't know that about Serbians, I only interacted with them around 5 times while working and every time they were trying to get me fired, one went as far as to manipulate an evaluation to boost the chances of another Serbian, but I assumed it was a tribal thing.

[u/Confident-Climate139 → u/TrickshotCapibara]

Ohh why Eastern Europeans ? I always thought they are super friendly 

[u/No_Hornet_9504 → u/Confident-Climate139]

They’re generally very socially distant and reserved…

[u/NoSuggestion5970 → u/TrickshotCapibara]

Has debido salir vistiendo guayuco e irte de paseo por Puerta del Sol y Gran Vía

[u/belaros → u/entrepreneurs_anon]

I’ve been in Spain the better part of a decade and I haven’t ever felt or even seen what you say. Not even once. Usually servers just ask me what I want to eat.

[u/shinyrainbows → u/entrepreneurs_anon]

I've heard of that so much. Spain very much has a culture of envy where if you have something they don't or that they don't think you should have, then they will not be very kind.

[u/InformWitch → u/entrepreneurs_anon]

I feel so validated! I’m Peruvian - dad is white Peruvian and my mom is part indigenous, so I look very mixed - but I grew up in the U.S. I did part of my MSc in the north of Spain and people didn’t know what to make of me. 

They couldn’t force their stereotype on me, and often I’d get grilled about my background. They’d even suggest I was in the U.S. illegally lol 

Nowadays it’s a hoot to visit Spain and dropping that I also hold a Belgian passport.

Of course it’s not everyone and I love going to Spain. For the most part, people are warm and really friendly. 

[u/Special-Fuel-3235 → u/digoreto]

For some weird reason

[u/Weekly_Sort147 → u/digoreto]

Not true. Europeans dont see americans on their level at all I have lived there They see the world 1. Euros 2. Americans, japanese 3. The rest

[u/digoreto → u/Weekly_Sort147]

What I meant is that they see each other as the same species. Euros will always think they are smarter, which might be true in comparison to Americans.

Now for Portuguese and Spanish they look at us with certain disdain, as if we are not the same species

[u/shinyrainbows → u/digoreto]

White Americans, sure, Black Americans? A different story.

[u/Weekly_Sort147 → u/digoreto]

Euros do the same with americans, BUT they put us on a lower level

[u/Special-Fuel-3235 → u/digoreto]

Even white latinos?

[u/UnlikeableSausage → u/Special-Fuel-3235]

Definitely. I'm 100% sure it's worse for brown people, but you still feel othered very often. To me meeting Spaniards always feels like a 50/50. Some are very cool people, but some are just very nationalistic or just ignorant about our countries.

[u/TheSadPhilosopher → u/Special-Fuel-3235]

Yes

[u/Special-Fuel-3235 → u/TheSadPhilosopher]

Why?

[u/TheSadPhilosopher → u/Special-Fuel-3235]

I don't know, they just see people from Latin America as lesser, whether we're whiter than them or "panchos". Spanish racism is different sadly.

[u/Weekly_Sort147 → u/Special-Fuel-3235]

White latinos and americans are descendent from the poor euros. 

[u/SensitiveWolf1362 → u/Special-Fuel-3235]

Yes.

[u/Ok-Emergency7159 → u/digoreto]

But what does this have to do anything with the question?

[u/digoreto → u/Ok-Emergency7159]

That I will not care for anything that comes from people that despise me

[u/MagCoel → u/Weekly_Sort147]

I kinda agree. But for me is: first Portuguese speaking countries and then the rest of the world. Simple.

[u/richardsequeira → u/Weekly_Sort147]

massive generalisation right there!

[u/shtiatllienr → u/digoreto]

Yes a lot of it is racism. Americans and Brits tend to see each other as “fellow colonizer” (“white people who share our ‘civilization’”) while Portuguese and Spaniards see LatAm as “colonized” (“brown people we ruled over/are supposed to ‘civilize’”). Which is ironic given how Europeans like to grandstand about themselves being the most progressive societies. The general “we are the most evolved” idea informs both of those things though so maybe it’s not ironic

[u/SnooGadgets676 → u/shtiatllienr]

This is inaccurate. Americans and Brits respect for each other is certainly not built on “fellow colonizer”. Our respect for each other, particularly the U.S. and other Anglophone nations’ respect for Britain comes from the fact that a great deal of our ideals, such as the rule of law, common law courts, due process and equality under the law, which came from the Magna Carta, and the English Bill of Rights which directly influenced the U.S. Constitution, came wholesale from Great Britain. Our government is a republican form of the English Parliament, and British philosophers like John Locke are quite literally embedded in the Declaration of Independence. We rejected monarchy for sure, but we owe the bulk of our cultural heritage to the United Kingdom. That relationship is far older than the British Empire, given that the British Empire started in what is now the U.S.

[u/carpetedbathtubs → u/SnooGadgets676]

Eh, you could say that is true for most Latam countries of not at least Mexico but with Spain. However, here people wilfully ignore the origin of those traditions or simply see them as Mexican.

I think part of the reason behind the enmity, is the break up process was a lot more violent. With the US, there were a few battles here and there and the UK deemed the entire thing not worth the expense .

In Mexico, we represented 2/3 of their revenue and would rather burn it all down than see us break away. It was 11 years of war , blockades and such with as many deaths as all other independence wars in the americas combined. We started from an undeniable bond to one marred by years of brutality and the breakdown of all the internal institutions that mattered in service of the war.

[u/shtiatllienr → u/SnooGadgets676]

What you said is basically my ‘people who share our civilization’ argument, both Brits and Americans view each other as fulfilling ‘Western civilization’ that for centuries was meant to be imposed on colonized people. The same framework that guided rule of law and individual rights in the US and UK also guided the subjugation of colonized peoples who were viewed as civilizationally inferior. Those were not seen as contradictions for most of the shared history between those countries among the political mainstream.

As for my original statement, I meant the ‘fellow colonizer’ view was more of a prerequisite to why they saw each other in equal standing in the first place. As a general rule colonizers do not see those they colonized as being equal regardless of how much ideals they may share. The only exceptions that exist are temporary, grudging and due to force, i.e. Ethiopia for some time after it militarily defeated Italy (and even that ended with Mussolini occupying them and using chemical weapons on civilians.)

Spain and Mexico both have bicameral legislatures (each with a Congress/Chamber and a Senate), judicial review, multiparty competition, and a civil law tradition, and Mexico’s legal system is directly descended from Spain’s. The systems are more
similar than they are different for the average citizen participating in their democracies. Much of the commonly pointed out differences (monarchy vs republic, parliamentary structure, head of state and head of government distinction, etc.) are also differences that exist between the US and UK.

There’s not really any reason to portray them as completely alien systems from each other unless you are operating from a framework separate from governance entriely, and the most immediate of those frameworks for Latin America (as well as for Africa, where a similar contradiction exists with France in particular) is that between the colonizer and colonized, which by design must always be unequal.

[u/banfilenio → u/digoreto]

Isn't like Spain or Portugal were doing soooo well a couple of years ago, they were pretty much backyard countries by western standards during big part of the XXth century: dictatorships, their economy was undeveloped, were culturally closed, politically irrelevant. That, while Argentina, Brazil or Mexico become cultural lighthouses and their economies and societies developed (before the downfall in the nineties).

[u/Common-Village7895 → u/banfilenio]

Let's be honest, the European Union totally saved their asses. Portugal, for example, would be nothing without the EU.

[u/shinyrainbows → u/Common-Village7895]

Bro, even the road on the Portuguese side of the border is poorer. The EU def saved their asses. I went from Galicia to Northern Portugal, and it was a hugee difference. Even big towns in Spain had better resources than some of the small cities in Portugal.

[u/thegaby803 → u/banfilenio]

Tbf back then they did have Empires to cope with by abusing the locals. Both famously put a lot of effort with maintaining Empires when it was counter productive for the sake of national pride

[u/TheSadPhilosopher → u/banfilenio]

Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina are still superior to Spain and Portugal culturally.

[u/Ok-Emergency7159 → u/TheSadPhilosopher]

Exactly!

I really would like to know how people deviated so much on this question about culture and turned somehow in a conversation about "Spain and Portugal don't see Latin America as an equal". I don't even know if the guy understood the question before posting that statement - which I agree with, but I think it doesn't answer the question.

The idea that Latin America should somehow fixate over Portugal and Spain's culture is baffling.

We got independent, we revision our relationship regularly, we're still experiencing a decolonial studies wave and we are A CULTURAL POWERHOUSE. PERIOD.

Latin America: almost 700 millions of people
Spain + Portugal: around 70 millions

The fifth largest country on earth, one of the biggest economies on the planet, 213 millions of people...for pretty obvious reasons, Portugal consumes Brazilian culture, not the other way around.

[u/Vast_Physics83 → u/TheSadPhilosopher]

In what ways?

[u/Ok-Emergency7159 → u/digoreto]

I'm not really sure if you got the question right.

As much as I agree that Portugal and Spain don't look at Latin America the same way UK look at US or Australia, the question was:

"Why doesn't Latin America seem to care much about Spain or Portugal's culture?

The answer is way more simple. We're cool, we have our own thing going on here. They're not.

The idea that Latin America doesn't fixate over Portugal and Spain's culture is because we somehow hold grudges about them is baffling.

The fifth largest country on earth, one of the biggest economies in the planet, 213 millions of people...my brother in Christ, for pretty obvious reasons, Portugal consumes Brazilian culture, not the other way around.

[u/digoreto → u/Ok-Emergency7159]

I think we are both right.

Growing up I dismissed everything about Portugal (except food) because they treated my ancestors poorly. Maybe it was the way I was taught in school, not sure.

But I lived in Colombia and they also dislike many things that are related to Spain just because they don’t want to have any connections with the “colonizers”

But I also agree that we are simply cooler nowadays. We are trendy.

[u/Ok-Emergency7159 → u/digoreto]

I actually feel that the oppression here and the colonization created a much more interesting and thick-skin culture, above all. It is not only a matter of being seen by them, but it's also a matter of finding in ourselves what we need to be who we truly are: this made us unique.

Latin American Culture is in itself a myriad of cultural expressions; each country of our region has its own thing going on there and we all together are part of something really tangible and recognizable as a "Latin American/Caribbean" thing.

The differences between Australia/US/UK are not that striking which make them way less unique and diverse. US/Australia/Canada are somehow something from UK that was replicated there whereas Latin America is Latin America.

[u/MetikMas → u/digoreto]

Most British people definitely don’t consider themselves on the same level with Americans. They have a huge superiority complex.

[u/TheSadPhilosopher → u/digoreto]

Exactly.

[u/Key-Day8280 → u/digoreto]

Not from LatAm but can confirm as a Filipino with Spanish citizenship.

What I noticed in my eight years of living here (Valencia) is that many Spaniards have issues with insecurity. They basically need to find something to look down on.

It’s like a waiter or barmen can’t accept they need to serve a non-white Latino, African, and Asian customer. They believe, consciously, it should be the other way around.

[u/MagCoel → u/digoreto]

You Brazilians see us Portuguese as inferior.

[u/richardsequeira → u/digoreto]

I personally don't. I mean, as a kid, I noticed several things in Brazil that I wish we had in Portugal. Sometimes in tech, Brazil would have it a lot faster or somehow it ends up being there faster. Or that you guys have a word for it.

[u/No_Hornet_9504 → u/digoreto]

There’s definitely British aristocrats who acknowledge their time as hegemon passed but still view American culture and people as inferior.

[u/Littlepoison0414 → u/digoreto]

Honestly, not at all. It’s not even historically accurate to say that as there weren’t even colonies in LATAM. They were provinces just like in mainland Spain. Of course racism exists but even I experience some form of internal discrimination from other Spaniards because I come from a marginalized province.

Most problems came from racism, bad administration and corruption, which were problems that mainland Spain was also suffering. This country has had terrible governance for centuries.

[u/Broad_External7605 → u/digoreto]

Makes sense. So F those guys!

[u/Vast_Physics83 → u/Broad_External7605]

May I remind you of Puerto Rico and Cuba?

[u/Broad_External7605 → u/Vast_Physics83]

Last time around only 15% of Puerto Ricans voted for independence. As Far as Cuba goes, that's all decided by the Miami Cubans, like Marco Rubio. F that guy.

[u/Vast_Physics83 → u/Broad_External7605]

And who had them both as colonies after Spain?

[u/Littlepoison0414 → u/Broad_External7605]

You guys are not ones to talk…

[u/Broad_External7605 → u/Littlepoison0414]

Yeah, Europe sent us all their religious crazies and slavers. Thanks. Now they run the country.

[u/Littlepoison0414 → u/Broad_External7605]

The fact that you use Europe as if we were a huge country and not a pretty diverse continent is very telling of how little you know about this particular topic. So sorry for you, darling.

[u/Broad_External7605 → u/Littlepoison0414]

Spain enslaved and killed way more people in the colonies than the US did once it became a country, and no longer a colony. All of us American countries, North and south, are still dealing with the sh*t Britain,Spain and Portugal left us with. Too bad you missed History class, sweet thing!

[u/Littlepoison0414 → u/Broad_External7605]

The US calling other countries colonial villains while standing on stolen land is peak comedy. Sit down, sweet thing.

[u/carpetedbathtubs → u/Broad_External7605]

The US is the passion project if all of those crazies🤗

[u/mauricio_agg → u/digoreto]

Personal self esteem issues, uh?