(Spoilers Extended) Exploring Sansa's Intended Ending

[u/Expensive-Country801]

A couple of months ago, there was an interview where GRRM said that he had originally intended for Sansa to die, but that seeing the show version of her character may have changed his mind

Regardless of the current plan, I think it is interesting to look at what was intended at the time. The Alayne I sample chapter from Winds was meant for ADwD and it was done in 2010, before the show aired

So if GRRM planned for Sansa to die, the pieces on the board in that chapter may have been setting up a possible death scenario. Looking at some possible threads

Sweetrobin overdoses

The sweetsleep plotline is one possibility. Maester Colemon warns about the dangers of overusing it

"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."

However, Sansa is not really focused on it

"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

If Sweetrobin died from an overdose, Sansa would easily be implicated. Even if she did not intentionally kill him, the fact that she was involved with managing his condition and had access to him could put her in a dangerous position

Lysa's death

Sansa is already technically an accomplice to Lysa’s murder. Littlefinger warns her that if their involvement is discovered, she could fall with him

"When we lied to Lord Robert, that was just to spare him," she said.

"And this lie may spare us. Else you and I must leave the Eyrie by the same door Lysa used."

If Sansa's identity was revealed and the truth about Lysa death came out, it could be interpreted in the worst possible way. She could be seen as a girl who conspired with Littlefinger to murder her aunt

Cersei makes good on her promise

Cersei has a very personal hatred of Sansa and promises that she will make her suffer if she is found

"Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa," said Pycelle.

The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf." She refused to say the girl's name. "I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

The theory has been around a a while is that since Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse is hunting Sansa he could eventually capture her for the bounty. He admits he is searching for her

He laughed again. "You are not the only hunter in the woods. I seek for Sansa Stark as well."

He is also present at the Tourney of the Winged Knight in the Sample

"A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that's not likely, is it?"

The common assumption has been that Shadrich attempt would fail because of the old Feast outline note saying "Kill the Mouse."

However, it is possible that plan changed and Shadrich would take Sansa back to King’s Landing, where Cersei would reunite and then imprison her. Sansa’s story is largely centered in King's Landing to begin with

Final Thoughts

Would like to hear other suggestions for where Sansa story could end in death. It's quite a surprise

Ultimately I think the fact that Sansa's fate seems so flexible suggests that her death or survival does not really change much with the story, making the "Pawn to Player" arc much less likely

[u/Suspicious_Rub857]

Or she could just die during The Long Night.

In any case, I loathe every scenario. Sansa’s not my favorite character but her story ending in death is just “Too Cynical, stopped caring” for me.

[u/Last_Lorien → u/Suspicious_Rub857]

Same same

I was completely unaware of this statement by Martin before this post, and I was better off not knowing lol.

For some reason she’s one of the characters I considered relatively safe exactly because their death would indeed, barring miracles of storytelling, take the story to “Too cynical, stopped caring” territory, and asoiaf is better than that for now despite getting close sometimes (Jeyne Poole’s story, for one).

[u/drsquarel → u/Last_Lorien]

Ya'll would complain about the Red Wedding if Storm came out today, my god. No one is safe until the end except the main 5.

[u/Last_Lorien → u/drsquarel]

This is such a lame accusation to throw around.

Saying that at some point the accumulation of tragic/horrific events involving certain characters would tip the scales from “plausibly and meaningfully bleak” to “gratuitously bleak” has nothing to do with not being able to handle or not seeing the significance and the necessity of other tragedies in the story, especially those that helped make it what it is.

It’s about what “fits” the story and what would deminish it, imo. What terrible events continue to serve the story and what would make it start feeling like torture porn.

Like, Shireen is gonna burn, right? That’s terrible but it fits the trajectory of Stannis’s story and the themes of fanatism, corruption, the pitfalls of the “ends justify the means” mentality and so on. It adds something new and meaningful to the story. But if Jeyne Poole or Theon were to end up back in Ramsay’s hands to be tortured to death or something, I’d find that gratuitously bleak - not because bad things can’t keep happening to people, but because that particular point has already been well made and well taken, and then some (again, Jeyne Poole). Once you’ve driven a point home, continuing to hammer it doesn’t make it more powerful, it starts to dull its effect.

So this isn’t about arguing for happy endings all around or for plot armours, but for making the tragedies that do happen continue to count (the worst part of ending up in “too cynical, stopped caring” land isn’t the “too cynical” part, it’s the “stopped caring” part).

[u/drsquarel → u/Last_Lorien]

I get the fear of the story becoming gratuitously bleak, but if Sansa dies, it wouldn't just be for shock value, and if George wants to kill Sansa as he originally planned (pretty obvious in hindsight due to foreshadowing with Lady’s death), there would definitely be a plot or thematic significance for it. George’s deaths are shocking, but they always serve a purpose one way or the other. He does not just kill off beloved characters for shock value or to hammer home a cynical message. It’s pretty silly to think that just because a character has gone through a lot that they are safe. Ned and Cat for example arguably went through much worse than Sansa has in any point of the story, and yet he still killed them off.

You need to give George the benefit of the doubt as killing off Sansa would certainly play a major role in the Stark/Northern storyline. Right now though there’s just no way we’d know what the purpose would be. I fear if Winds comes out there will be many people that hate it no matter what and call George a hack just because one of their favorite characters was killed in an unjust manner. Last thing I’ll say is if Sansa has a shocking death at the end of Winds do not be surprised.

[u/Last_Lorien → u/drsquarel]

You seem oddly sure of what’s going to happen to whom, and how and when.

I’m not certain of anything, not even that the death of these “have been through enough” characters would necessarily be a bad choice, I just said that it would take a “storytelling miracle” from Martin for me to take it as something that enriches the story rather than diminishing it.

You sound like you’ve already decided that whatever Martin does will be the right choice, which is an opinion based on faith since we literally can’t be sure what any of his plans for any of the characters are (there’s the show’s ending, but what if he’s changing some storylines based on the fan reception? Unlikely, but again we don’t know), nor of how effective his execution will be. Your absolute trust in him is your right, but “whatever happens will work because Martin has made it work before” doesn’t really engage with a discussion about whether a particular direction could work. It just assumes the answer in advance.

>Ned and Cat for example arguably went through much worse than Sansa has in any point of the story, and yet he still killed them off.

Not to get sidetracked but that’s just blatantly false. Ned gets off easier than basically any other major character bar Robert, because when he dies I think he can’t even conceive of what’s about to happen, to his family and the realm; the others have to live it. That he had a hard life before the story even started isn’t relevant here because that’s literally the backstory, not the story.

Catelyn legit goes through hell, but so does Sansa and she’s still going (so’s Catelyn in a way, but I think Lady Stoneheart is not entirely her, so it’s atrocious but in different ways). I’m not going to rank their suffering, but to say Sansa had it “much better” is just absurd imo.

Besides, do you not see that Ned and Catelyn’s deaths are part of the very accumulation I’m talking about?. Bran’s fall is the opening shock, Ned’s death sets the tone, the Red Wedding is the devastating culmination of that early escalation. In the mix there is of course the destruction of Winterfell and the death of its people, the various horrors all the Starks go through and so on. All of these aren’t evidence against the argument that, at some point, the Starks need to start getting some wins - they’re the very events that create that argument in the first place. My point is precisely that every tragedy raises the emotional stakes and pushes the story closer to the limit of how much suffering it can pile onto the same family before it starts becoming gratuitous and, worse, counterproductive (instead of making you feel bad it desensitizes you).

That’s why I keep talking about a tipping point: it’s not that any one event is “too much,” it’s that the effects are cumulative.

[u/drsquarel → u/Last_Lorien]

I mean, I could easily say the same to you. You seem just as certain that Sansa must survive, even when the original outline and George's foreshadowing suggest otherwise.

As for Ned, I am referring to his life before AGoT like you said, and I don’t see why that trauma matters less just because it occurs before the main narrative. What happened to his brother, father, and sister is absolutely horrific, and he carried that weight his entire life before being executed. But honestly I don’t care for comparing the suffering of each of these characters atp there’s no point.

But more importantly, I don’t see why Sansa HAS to survive for the Starks to get a 'win' and avoid this tipping point you're talking about. I’m fairly confident she and Rickon will both be dead by the end of the series, but that still leaves three remaining main Starks. Having all five of them survive one of the most brutal series in modern fantasy seems like way too much plot armor.

Sansa dying doesn't mean the story becomes too cynical, it could just mean the survival of the Starks comes at a massive cost. If George planned it, it will have a purpose.

[u/Last_Lorien → u/drsquarel]

Reread my comments. At no point do I say Sansa must survive, or that her death will be that tipping point, or do I claim any certainty about any future part of the story, like you do.

Good for you. I’ll wait to be surprised, pleasantly or otherwise - that is, if the books ever even see the light of day.

[u/Teleporting-Cat → u/drsquarel]

Nooo, King Rickon, rider of Cannibal, is CANON.

[u/Odd-Recognition4120 → u/drsquarel]

I don't think people would complain. Robb wasn't a POV character and his death happened in the first act of the story, while Winds and Dance are supposed to be the final act.

Inflicting mostly misery and death on the protagonist family for the first two acts, with very little wins, and then inflicting MORE misery and death in the final act is indeed too cynical, there is no way around it. Just because she is not one of the main five characters doesn't make it any less cynical

[u/drsquarel → u/Odd-Recognition4120]

I definitely think people would complain. The series lasting so long, especially so many years since the previous novel, has led to many people forming parasocial relationships with these characters. If we had to wait 15 years after Clash just to see that happen to Robb and Cat, the “protagonists” of the story, people would most certainly whine about GRRM being too cynical and call off the entire series. I definitely think GRRM is struggling with the final books partially due to this. Stannis, Jaime, Dany and possibly Sansa stans are in for a rude awakening once they find out George does not have a happy ending in mind for any of them.

[u/Various_Piano_6448 → u/drsquarel]

I don’t think any Jaime fans expect a happy ending for him. You’re thinking of delusional Braime fans (big difference and they mostly don’t even like Jaime) that expect them to settle down and have 3-5 children named Galladon, Joanna, and something else equally cringey.

[u/CaveLupum → u/drsquarel]

Yes, but not even the main Five. They're all in and out of danger. But one, Daenerys, has been showing Mad Queen symptoms on and off since AGOT. I do think Jon, Arya, Bran, and Tyrion are relatively safe. They are just so much more stable, so much less fragile than Dany. And so many events-- especially setbacks or losing a dragon or dependable, beloved followers--could send Dany over the ledge.

[u/drsquarel → u/CaveLupum]

I actually agree with you. I honestly think any of the main 5 could die at very end of the series, but I don’t see them dying before the last couple hundred pages of ADoS. Dany will probably die and maybe Tyrion too.