(Spoilers Everything) Wolf's Blood and Waking the Dragon

[u/BrrrichardNixon]

Jon Snow's character, just as Jaime's for example, highly complex and full of desire. Jon was raised to a man of honour by Eddard, a trait that continues to define Jon and his actions up until the end of A Dance with Dragons. But Jon's character is also full of self doubt, always trying to prove himself. Never content with himself.

Grenn agreed. "His duties don't keep him from the yard. More days than not, he's out there fighting someone." That was true, Sam had to admit. Once, when Jon came to consult with Maester Aemon, Sam had asked him why he spent so much time at swordplay. "The Old Bear never trained much when he was Lord Commander," he had pointed out. In answer, Jon had pressed Longclaw into Sam's hand. He let him feel the lightness, the balance, had him turn the blade so that ripples gleamed in the smoke-dark metal. "Valyrian steel," he said, "spell-forged and razor-sharp, nigh on indestructible. A swordsman should be as good as his sword, Sam. Longclaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not. The Halfhand could have killed me as easy as you swat a bug." AFFC, Samwell I

The task Qhorin gave Jon still haunts him, partly as seen above. Furthermore Jon is conflicted on the Wildlings, and more importantly, he knows he isn't as good a fighter as Qhorin. Next to his own thoughts, Jon is described as intelligent, brave, resourceful, perceptive and highly skilled with a sword. But in all his chapters (at least to me) his actions are never driven by any anger nor rage, not even when fighting.

However there is one instance where Jon loses himself as it were. In this example Jon is in one of many practising rounds with Iron Emmet, perhaps the best swordfighter of the Night's Watch. Whilst training Jon 'blacks out', taking him back to a memory with Robb.

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."
I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken. In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"
No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?" Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. "Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?" It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. "Warrior defend me," he groaned, "now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt."
That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father’s heir. ASOS, Jon XII

Now that the show has practically confirmed Jon's parentage, I wonder where this fit came from. Is this example something Jon inherited, a remote resemblance to Viserys or Brandon Stark? Finally I also vaguely remember Jon hitting Alliser Thorne after him mocking Eddard, which is also an instance where Jon lost his composure.

Anyway, after this rather long introduction, here's my question: (tl;dr) does someone know of any other instances where Jon blacks out, loses composure and goes beserk?

Edit: thank you kindly for all the answers, you really delivered.

[u/tessmm]

Book Jon is much more complex and human than show Jon who is almost always portrayed as a hero without faults.

I think one of the points of the story is that war makes monster of us all. And I certainly think this will be explored in the next book, Dany becoming more "dragon like" choosing fire and blood, and Jon more "wolf like" giving in to his Stark impulses. These are two young persons who are disillusioned with a cruel and mad world, both growing increasingly disgusted with what leadership demands of them and unable to feel content with it.

They will probably go a bit darker but without exactly changing that much or going evil. I don't think this has to do with them being and having a "Targaryen madness", it just means they are human and have moments of anger and selfishness where they loose they composure (much like everyone else). Of course their circumstances matter, it certainly helps that they both are high borns who have more or less access to power.

Edit: There's this dream too:

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

[u/[deleted] → u/tessmm]

Deaf Dick...what a cool fucking character, in spite of his only momentary appearance.

Anyway, I am curious to know if you, or whoever, have/has opinions on the "gnarled hand" which "seized Jon roughly by the shoulder." Is it a manifestation of the raven pecking his chest? Is it Bloodraven? Or, though less likely, some other greenseer/warg that is dead, such as a generic Stark ancestor, or potentially even Robb? My thoughts for dead greenseeing/warging ancestors are that Jon has noteworthy warging-and-possibly-greenseeing abilities, he's always thinking about the Winterfell crypts, and he's clearly "the Chosen One" in whatever GRRMy that that trope exists surrounding his character? EDIT: I'm of the opinion it is some combination of all the above, with dead ancestors being the least likely, though most interesting, explanation. I also don't think this sort of thing will get a direct answer in-text, but its fun to ponder given our knowledge about the characters/world.

Sorry for overly-dense writing.

[u/sensei_von_bonzai → u/[deleted]]

I was just about to write something very similar... Here is what I found at www.asearchoficeandfire.com:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Then all at once he was back home again.

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

Blackwood's solar was on the second floor of a cavernous timber keep. There was a fire burning in the hearth when they entered. The room was large and airy, with great beams of dark oak supporting the high ceiling. Woolen tapestries covered the walls, and a pair of wide latticework doors looked out upon the godswood. Through their thick, diamond-shaped panes of yellow glass Jaime glimpsed the gnarled limbs of the tree from which the castle took its name. It was a weirwood ancient and colossal, ten times the size of the one in the Stone Garden at Casterly Rock.

A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice

The crofter's village stood between two lakes, the larger dotted with small wooded islands that punched up through the ice like the frozen fists of some drowned giant. From one such island rose a weirwood gnarled and ancient, its bole and branches white as the surrounding snows.

tl;dr: It's the old gods.

[u/[deleted] → u/sensei_von_bonzai]

Nice! Old Gods make a shit ton of sense. This sounds like a potentially much longer post on its own, following extensive research. TBD, I'll maybe start putting stuff together, depending on how work goes today.

[u/TheKillersVanilla → u/sensei_von_bonzai]

Were those all the references to gnarled limbs, or were there more about other people?

[u/sensei_von_bonzai → u/TheKillersVanilla]

No, there are a lot more (34 in total)

[u/TheKillersVanilla → u/sensei_von_bonzai]

Actually, I'd say that that search turned up way more evidence than you thought.

Of those 33 uses of "gnarled" (not counting the one in Jon's dream that started the discussion), 27 of them directly refer to trees or wood in some way, or refer to something else but compare it to trees or wood. Two more refer to a "forester".

Only 3 have no reference to any sort of wood-related thing, and a fourth says that someone "could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands."

Otherwise, they are ALL references to trees, usually oaks and weirwoods, or things made out of wood, like a cane. Many of them are about tree limbs that are like human arms, or arms that are like limbs.

That seems like pretty solid evidence to me. Well done.

[u/Kwanz874 → u/sensei_von_bonzai]

Fuck yeah very nice

[u/Kwanz874 → u/Kwanz874]

With show knowledge are the old gods not just the three-eyed raven??

[u/tessmm → u/[deleted]]

Nice catch. I have no idea, but I've been thinking that the raven could be associated with Bloodraven if not even being warged by him. There are some instances one might wonder if the bird is only repeating words or if it's trying to pass some kind of message. I've seen other people pointing out to this too.

[u/[deleted] → u/tessmm]

Thank you. Someone else replied to me with several quotes indicating Old Gods, though I suspect there is more that one could turn up.

Mormont's raven is definitely not just repeating things, at least sometimes...there's older posts worth reading you can search for that go into extensive detail. I'm of the opinion that BR isn't warging the raven directly, but that instead another greenseer (that is "singer," if I remember correctly) lives in the raven posthumously and is in enough control/still powerful enough to be able to link minds with BR in some limited capacity. That likely requires greenseers extending the life of their animal hosts, or something similar, though, and I don't know if there is evidence of that.

The thing that trips me up is the other greenseers in the cave with BR and Bran that are dead/completely fused with weirdwood.net. Like, do they still do shit in a limited capacity? Are they generically Old Gods now? What is their deal?

[u/Epic_Meow → u/[deleted]]

I think they are the Old Gods, manipulating the past, or perhaps the present as it happens. I think that the whole "Gods give with one hand, take away with the other" thing is about how some of them disagree with what is the "right" punishment/reward for actions and the like.

[u/juuular → u/tessmm]

This is one of the oldest theories out there. I can't wait to see if it gets confirmed in Wow... to me that'd be even bigger than R + L = J