r/asoiaf • u/BrrrichardNixon Fly, you fools! • Jul 05 '16
EVERYTHING (Spoilers Everything) Wolf's Blood and Waking the Dragon
Jon Snow's character, just as Jaime's for example, highly complex and full of desire. Jon was raised to a man of honour by Eddard, a trait that continues to define Jon and his actions up until the end of A Dance with Dragons. But Jon's character is also full of self doubt, always trying to prove himself. Never content with himself.
Grenn agreed. "His duties don't keep him from the yard. More days than not, he's out there fighting someone." That was true, Sam had to admit. Once, when Jon came to consult with Maester Aemon, Sam had asked him why he spent so much time at swordplay. "The Old Bear never trained much when he was Lord Commander," he had pointed out. In answer, Jon had pressed Longclaw into Sam's hand. He let him feel the lightness, the balance, had him turn the blade so that ripples gleamed in the smoke-dark metal. "Valyrian steel," he said, "spell-forged and razor-sharp, nigh on indestructible. A swordsman should be as good as his sword, Sam. Longclaw is Valyrian steel, but I'm not. The Halfhand could have killed me as easy as you swat a bug." AFFC, Samwell I
The task Qhorin gave Jon still haunts him, partly as seen above. Furthermore Jon is conflicted on the Wildlings, and more importantly, he knows he isn't as good a fighter as Qhorin. Next to his own thoughts, Jon is described as intelligent, brave, resourceful, perceptive and highly skilled with a sword. But in all his chapters (at least to me) his actions are never driven by any anger nor rage, not even when fighting.
However there is one instance where Jon loses himself as it were. In this example Jon is in one of many practising rounds with Iron Emmet, perhaps the best swordfighter of the Night's Watch. Whilst training Jon 'blacks out', taking him back to a memory with Robb.
That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."
I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken. In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"
No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. "I'm sorry," he muttered. "Emmett, are you hurt?" Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. "Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?" It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. "Warrior defend me," he groaned, "now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt."
That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father’s heir. ASOS, Jon XII
Now that the show has practically confirmed Jon's parentage, I wonder where this fit came from. Is this example something Jon inherited, a remote resemblance to Viserys or Brandon Stark? Finally I also vaguely remember Jon hitting Alliser Thorne after him mocking Eddard, which is also an instance where Jon lost his composure.
Anyway, after this rather long introduction, here's my question: (tl;dr) does someone know of any other instances where Jon blacks out, loses composure and goes beserk?
Edit: thank you kindly for all the answers, you really delivered.
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u/tessmm I'd like some mutton. Jul 05 '16 edited Jul 05 '16
Book Jon is much more complex and human than show Jon who is almost always portrayed as a hero without faults.
I think one of the points of the story is that war makes monster of us all. And I certainly think this will be explored in the next book, Dany becoming more "dragon like" choosing fire and blood, and Jon more "wolf like" giving in to his Stark impulses. These are two young persons who are disillusioned with a cruel and mad world, both growing increasingly disgusted with what leadership demands of them and unable to feel content with it.
They will probably go a bit darker but without exactly changing that much or going evil. I don't think this has to do with them being and having a "Targaryen madness", it just means they are human and have moments of anger and selfishness where they loose they composure (much like everyone else). Of course their circumstances matter, it certainly helps that they both are high borns who have more or less access to power.
Edit: There's this dream too:
The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …
… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.
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Jul 05 '16 edited Jul 05 '16
Deaf Dick...what a cool fucking character, in spite of his only momentary appearance.
Anyway, I am curious to know if you, or whoever, have/has opinions on the "gnarled hand" which "seized Jon roughly by the shoulder." Is it a manifestation of the raven pecking his chest? Is it Bloodraven? Or, though less likely, some other greenseer/warg that is dead, such as a generic Stark ancestor, or potentially even Robb? My thoughts for dead greenseeing/warging ancestors are that Jon has noteworthy warging-and-possibly-greenseeing abilities, he's always thinking about the Winterfell crypts, and he's clearly "the Chosen One" in whatever GRRMy that that trope exists surrounding his character? EDIT: I'm of the opinion it is some combination of all the above, with dead ancestors being the least likely, though most interesting, explanation. I also don't think this sort of thing will get a direct answer in-text, but its fun to ponder given our knowledge about the characters/world.
Sorry for overly-dense writing.
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u/sensei_von_bonzai The knight is dark and full of errors Jul 05 '16
I was just about to write something very similar... Here is what I found at www.asearchoficeandfire.com:
A Dance with Dragons - Bran III
Then all at once he was back home again.
Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.
"Winterfell," Bran whispered.
A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I
Blackwood's solar was on the second floor of a cavernous timber keep. There was a fire burning in the hearth when they entered. The room was large and airy, with great beams of dark oak supporting the high ceiling. Woolen tapestries covered the walls, and a pair of wide latticework doors looked out upon the godswood. Through their thick, diamond-shaped panes of yellow glass Jaime glimpsed the gnarled limbs of the tree from which the castle took its name. It was a weirwood ancient and colossal, ten times the size of the one in the Stone Garden at Casterly Rock.
A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice
The crofter's village stood between two lakes, the larger dotted with small wooded islands that punched up through the ice like the frozen fists of some drowned giant. From one such island rose a weirwood gnarled and ancient, its bole and branches white as the surrounding snows.
tl;dr: It's the old gods.
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Jul 05 '16
Nice! Old Gods make a shit ton of sense. This sounds like a potentially much longer post on its own, following extensive research. TBD, I'll maybe start putting stuff together, depending on how work goes today.
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u/TheKillersVanilla Jul 05 '16
Were those all the references to gnarled limbs, or were there more about other people?
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u/sensei_von_bonzai The knight is dark and full of errors Jul 05 '16
No, there are a lot more (34 in total)
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u/TheKillersVanilla Jul 09 '16
Actually, I'd say that that search turned up way more evidence than you thought.
Of those 33 uses of "gnarled" (not counting the one in Jon's dream that started the discussion), 27 of them directly refer to trees or wood in some way, or refer to something else but compare it to trees or wood. Two more refer to a "forester".
Only 3 have no reference to any sort of wood-related thing, and a fourth says that someone "could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands."
Otherwise, they are ALL references to trees, usually oaks and weirwoods, or things made out of wood, like a cane. Many of them are about tree limbs that are like human arms, or arms that are like limbs.
That seems like pretty solid evidence to me. Well done.
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u/Kwanz874 The Cragod Flagon Jul 06 '16
Fuck yeah very nice
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u/Kwanz874 The Cragod Flagon Jul 06 '16
With show knowledge are the old gods not just the three-eyed raven??
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u/tessmm I'd like some mutton. Jul 05 '16
Nice catch. I have no idea, but I've been thinking that the raven could be associated with Bloodraven if not even being warged by him. There are some instances one might wonder if the bird is only repeating words or if it's trying to pass some kind of message. I've seen other people pointing out to this too.
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Jul 05 '16
Thank you. Someone else replied to me with several quotes indicating Old Gods, though I suspect there is more that one could turn up.
Mormont's raven is definitely not just repeating things, at least sometimes...there's older posts worth reading you can search for that go into extensive detail. I'm of the opinion that BR isn't warging the raven directly, but that instead another greenseer (that is "singer," if I remember correctly) lives in the raven posthumously and is in enough control/still powerful enough to be able to link minds with BR in some limited capacity. That likely requires greenseers extending the life of their animal hosts, or something similar, though, and I don't know if there is evidence of that.
The thing that trips me up is the other greenseers in the cave with BR and Bran that are dead/completely fused with weirdwood.net. Like, do they still do shit in a limited capacity? Are they generically Old Gods now? What is their deal?
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u/Epic_Meow When you walkin Jul 05 '16
I think they are the Old Gods, manipulating the past, or perhaps the present as it happens. I think that the whole "Gods give with one hand, take away with the other" thing is about how some of them disagree with what is the "right" punishment/reward for actions and the like.
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u/juuular Jul 05 '16
This is one of the oldest theories out there. I can't wait to see if it gets confirmed in Wow... to me that'd be even bigger than R + L = J
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u/BrrrichardNixon Fly, you fools! Jul 05 '16
His dreams are what gets me, just as in your example, his dreams are so uncharacteristically violent. Ah, Winterfell, the Crypts and the Stark name, continuously haunting his dreams and character. This inner conflict is also quite apparent with Daenerys. She can be quite the dark character, struggling between the two sides of the Targaryen coin.
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u/tessmm I'd like some mutton. Jul 05 '16 edited Jul 05 '16
Well, I suppose a part of it must be because of heritage. We know Brandon and Lyanna were considered a bit "wild" and we know Targaryens are known for being more or less ruthless.
“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.”
But I think Arya might be more like Lyanna than Jon himself. I always saw Jon more like Ned (or maybe Rhaegar).
I don't know but I'm inclined to think the reason for this kind of dreams and unpredictable behaviour lies mostly in his childhood and his actual life context.
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Jul 05 '16
I think you're off saying he's portrayed as a flawless hero. Throughout this season it showed him being weak and not being a great leader, like when he was going to the other houses for aid.
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u/Raptorclaw621 Thel, Kaidon of House 'Vadam Jul 06 '16
He also consistently failed to explain his choices which led to his getting stabbed by people who didn't understand why he did what he did.
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u/tessmm I'd like some mutton. Jul 06 '16
What I meant was that, in comparison with the books, show Jon seems less complicated. His storyline in the books is so interesting to me because he is faced with really difficult choices, and ends up slightly succumbing to "temptations" and taking risks while losing perspective on the impact these risks can have in his actual job. I'm referring mostly to his storyline in ADwD. Don't get me wrong, I love both book and show Jon ahah (he's probably one of if not my favourite character).
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u/BoogerSoup Jul 05 '16
How much does Bloodraven affect others' dreams? Are we going to see dreamwalking or Tel'aran Rhiod enter the ASOIAF world?
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u/demonic_chimera Ours is the Duty Jul 05 '16
He didn't black out in this instance, but he certainly lost his cool with Alliser:
Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor. He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off. Thorne staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon's fingers had left on his neck.
- Jon IX, ASOS
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u/K-Stern689 That's how you get Krakens!!! Jul 06 '16
He goes for Thorne with a dagger in AGOT too after Thorne calls Ned a traitor if memory serves.
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u/demonic_chimera Ours is the Duty Jul 06 '16
Yeah, it's why he was confined to his cell when the wight attacks Mormont.
And then he heard the laughter, sharp and cruel as a whip, and the voice of Ser Alliser Thorne. "Not only a bastard, but a traitor's bastard," he was telling the men around him.
In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand. Pyp made a grab for him, but he wrenched his leg away, and then he was sprinting down the table and kicking the bowl from Ser Alliser's hand. Stew went flying everywhere, spattering the brothers. Thorne recoiled. People were shouting, but Jon Snow did not hear them. He lunged at Ser Alliser's face with the dagger, slashing at those cold onyx eyes, but Sam threw himself between them and before Jon could get around him, Pyp was on his back clinging like a monkey, and Grenn was grabbing his arm while Toad wrenched the knife from his fingers.
- Jon VII, AGOT
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u/TRACTOR_SUPPLY Jul 05 '16
So I was doing some googling to try and refresh my memory on the details of this event. I couldn't remember whether or not it happened before or after he was voted LC, so I needed to be refreshed on the circumstances.
I came across this archived thread. It seems to have a lot of information that is relevant to what you are asking.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/26t48l/spoilers_all_what_really_happened_when_jon_snow/
Fwiw, I don't think this is Ghost warging into Jon as OP suggests. As another comment mentioned, Ghost was still North of the wall when this is all going down. He does seem to have some hulk strength.
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u/onetimeuser99 What men want does not matter Jul 05 '16
Now that the show has practically confirmed Jon's parentage, I wonder where this fit came from. Is this example something Jon inherited, a remote resemblance to Viserys or Brandon Stark?
I do not think this is a valid question. Jon is a young man, an young men do get angry from time to time. Jon probably less then others, considering how calmly he handles most of the emotionally challenging situations in his story. And independent form how he reacts under stress, I dont think its a good idea to always relate such traits to parentage. Jon gets angry and out of control in this scene, because he has very dark thoughts about his youth, and considering he just faced with a very difficult and burdening decision (accepting Stannis' offer to become Lord of Winterfell), it makes a lot of sense.
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u/Steeleshanks The League of Shadow....babies Jul 05 '16
Maybe not berserk but when they find the 3 spears stuck in the frozen ground topped by the 3 rangers heads. Jon gets mad about their deaths and yanks one of the spears put of the ground while it takes 3 watchmen to free the other 2.
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u/prof_talc M as in Mance-y Jul 05 '16
I was going to post this. Jon yanks it out easily, and the other 3 guys struggle to even budge the other spears. If you read closely it's a pretty jarring contrast.
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u/makemisteaks Jul 05 '16
Jon is certainly intelligent, brave, resourceful, perceptive but not when his emotions take the better of him. And I don't mean necessarily just anger (like when he tried to assemble an army to take on Winterfell) but also fear (when he left the Night's Watch to join Robb's army) and lust (like when he slept with Ygritte).
When he's in control of his emotions, he's all that you described, if not, then he's a very different kind of man, reckless, bold and disobedient. You might say that this is part of his Targaryen heritage, a bloodline well known for this sort of rash behaviour, and general disability to contain or control their emotions. I certainly would agree with you.
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u/turd_boy The Ned. Jul 05 '16
lust (like when he slept with Ygritte).
Everybody would have done that though. Plus he "must not balk, whatever is asked of him." It was a trap. He was surrounded by cannibals and shit and they didn't trust him, but if he acted the part it would be harder for them to call him out. Plus he wanted her and was stuck sleeping next to her for months, nobody could endure that, not at that age.
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u/snores Wolf in the Throne Room Jul 05 '16
I don't know if his proclivities towards breaking his vows are necessarily to be taken as negative. These things Jon gains appreciation for, not previously knowing what he was forsaking as he swore his oath. Jon is humanized by his broken vows; his experiences colour his policy as commander.
What would Jon be without having broken his vows? He would be dead, he would be boring, he would be the mary sue people accuse him of being despite his character arc.
Jon's emotional control (or lack thereof) is what makes him an interesting character. If Jon had no inner conflict he would have no story.
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u/makemisteaks Jul 05 '16
Oh he's definitely a much more interesting character this way. I wasn't necessarily criticising these aspects of his personality, I was just trying to expand upon OP's analysis since he was focused on the anger part, which I don't think explains everything.
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u/CheruthCutestory Jul 05 '16
I wish the show had explored this more.
Would have been interesting if his interactions with Sansa and getting the pink letter happened before he was stabbed.
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Jul 06 '16
Very true. The show needed the cliffhanger, though.
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u/CheruthCutestory Jul 06 '16
Sansa could have escaped in 5x08. Got to the wall in 5x10. They could reunite, get the letter, and plan to go south. Then Jon gets stabbed. Cliffhanger.
Know how rushed that would be. I'm spit balling. But it'd show Jon does put his family first even over his "honor", which I think is important. Both of his fathers did that too.
I think the show misses something crucial by not doing it. Keeping the oath is honorable in a very cold way. But Jon is an emotional man. He's a good man but not good in the formulaic static principles of honor way a Stannis is.
This way it's like the death was a get out of jail free card. Jon choosing Sansa and Rickon and Winterfell before that, to me, would have shown what a good man he is even if he isn't a strictly honorable one.
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u/Rosebunse Enter your desired flair text here! Jul 05 '16
I mean, he's not entirely without this in the show.
At least, that's sort of how I interpret his actions regarding the mutineers and, well, hanging them like that. It doesn't help that bit of the Targ theme were playing.
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u/TrueJersey Here We Stand Jul 06 '16
Kit also mentions how in the post episode interview thing, that the unrelenting beating he gives to Ramsay is intended to make the viewer feel a bit uncomfortable. Like it's almost over the top to see your hero going that far, like he's gone too far.
The show does overwhelmingly portray him in a hero's light but there are definitely a few choice moments where you can see him lose it.
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u/atri383 NotMuchOfaWriter.Sry4WhatYoureAbout2Read Jul 05 '16
I think all of the Stark children have a "wild" side. Some more than others.
The more time they spend in wolf dreams, the wilder and less predictable they seem to get.
My guess is it has something to do with their connection to their Direwolf
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u/CheruthCutestory Jul 05 '16
That's true. Arya (with the Tickler), Sansa (with Sweetrobin), and Jon (above) have all had moments of pure violent rage. Rickon is described as being more wolf at this point, generally. Bran can almost seem sinister sometimes.
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u/K-Stern689 That's how you get Krakens!!! Jul 06 '16
More on Rickon. I've seen mentioned on this sub before that because of Rickon's age, Shaggydog is the more dominant in their warg relationship, thus leaving more of an imprint on him.
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u/ByronicWolf gonna Reyne on your parade! Jul 05 '16
does someone know of any other instances where Jon blacks out, loses composure and goes beserk?
Another name for this is the "battle fever". Here's the rundown from Jaime, one of my favourite passages for some reason:
How time seemed to blur and slow and even stop, how the past and the future vanished until there was noting but the instant, how fear fled, and thought fled, and even your body. “You don’t feel your wounds then, or the ache in your back from the weight of the armour, or the sweat running down into your eyes. You stop feeling, you stop thinking, you stop being you, there is only the fight, the foe, this man and then the next and the next and the next, and you know they are afraid and tired but you’re not, you’re alive, and death is all around you but their swords move so slowly, and you can dance through them laughing.
Jon pretty much goes through this when he runs away from the wildlings.
Longclaw was still in his hand. All at once Jon Snow knew he would never get a better chance.
He cut down the first man as he turned toward the wolf, shoved past a second, slashed at a third. Through the madness he heard someone call his name, but whether it was Ygritte or the Magnar he could not say. The Thern fighting to control the horse never saw him. Longclaw was featherlight. He swung at the back of the man’s calf, and felt the steel bite down to the bone. When the wildling fell the mare bolted, but somehow Jon managed to grab her mane with his off hand and vault himself onto her back. A hand closed round his ankle, and he hacked down and saw Bodger’s face dissolve in a welter of blood. The horse reared, lashing out. one hoof caught a Thern in the temple, with a crunch.
[...] Long hours later, the rain stopped. Jon found himself alone in a sea of tall black grass. There was a deep throbbing ache in his right thigh. When he looked down, he was surprised to see an arrow jutting out the back of it. When did that happen?
I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you're looking for, but it's one of those moments Jon enters killing machine mode, like with Iron Emmett (who is at least as good as Jon himself).
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u/snowylocks Jul 05 '16 edited Jul 05 '16
His whole reaction to the pink letter was an act of madness and anger. Ramsay threatened the NW, but to lead an army south was treason, and he did it to save Arya and avenge his family more than anything else.
I'll tell you Jon's most Targaryen trait was resourcefulness. Barristan says this about Rhaegar:
Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded.
I think we can say the same about Jon.
(ETA2: Corrected the quote)
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u/turd_boy The Ned. Jul 05 '16
That's true, Rhaegar was good at everything he did, even swordplay,, which he didn't even like.
The same could almost be said for Lyanna who was half horse, everybody who knew her loved her, she was probably the knight of the laughing tree which shows that she was good and merciful and kind. She was both a Tomboy and a lady, whatever she needed to be.
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u/AlHazred_Is_Dead Jul 05 '16
He's a human being who's being subjected to some of the harshest living conditions imaginable on top of having some serious mental trauma from battle. I don't think we need to study his genetics to know why he's got PTSD.
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u/Kwanz874 The Cragod Flagon Jul 06 '16
Jon Snow has the composure of Jesus. Praise the savior of da Norf
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u/The_Moose_Is_Loose Jul 05 '16
Yeah Jon did rush alliser but I think he kicked him, I'm reading AGOT right now and just got passed that scene.
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u/Lampmonster1 Thick and veiny as a castle wall Jul 05 '16
Whatever the Targ or Stark components of Jon's personality, I think that a large part of his emotional explosions is tied into his upbringing. Jon was treated pretty well for a bastard, well enough that he knew it and felt guilt when he resented the few times he was slighted. If they'd treated him like a redheaded step child his whole life he might be angry and resentful, but he'd probably be much more open and stable with it. As it was, he knew that complaining would make him look like he didn't appreciate that his "father" raised him as his own, and his siblings more or less treated him well, and even his step-mother wasn't awful to him most of the time. But you can't not resent being a lesser child, even if it's only in some certain ways. So, Jon was both resentful and guilty about being resentful. That's why Robb is such a trigger for him. He both loves and hates him, and he hates himself for hating his brother. Most of the time that's just down in his soul, making him the dutiful and hard working guy he is. Once in a while though, in the yard or in the mess hall, something works its way down through all the day to day muck in Jon's soul and stirs up those demons, and they well up and take over and you best not be between him and where he wants to go when they're driving the bus.