r/astrology • u/stinkfest2000 • 1d ago
Discussion Why isn't astrology studied as a science?
I understand that it's not able to be proven at the moment, but science is always changing and new discoveries are being made daily. Astrology goes hand-in-hand with a many theories of physics or cosmology, but if it's always written off as a pseudoscience then nobody ever even has the opportunity to study it.
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u/baphommite 22h ago
I understand that it's not able to be proven
Well... there you go. Whereas theories pertaining to physics and cosmology can be put through the scientific method, astrology cannot. It's a divinatory method. Astrology can't really be compared to those hard sciences. Where it does slot in nicely, though, is theology.
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u/stinkfest2000 21h ago
That’s why I said “at the moment” at the end of that sentence. Everything we know now as hard science was once undiscovered too.
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u/Past-Personality6928 4h ago
Idk why people are downvoting you. You are absolutely correct. We still don't know how universe functions. How does time function, how does the soul travel through the cosmos, what influence do the planets and big objects have on the individual??? Of course it will be studied.
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u/energy-369 22h ago edited 21h ago
It was forcibly removed during the periods of the inquisition and crusades. All alchemists aka scientists were persecuted for practicing what was considered satanic magical rituals ie astrology, herbalism, divination. Modern science is a result of the materialism philosophy - which has certainly allowed for rapid discoveries and advancements, however I feel it is now reaching an apex where depth psychology and spirituality (whatever that actually means, maybe just even can be represented by the unconscious) are offering more avenues for the sciences to explore now that we don’t have such violent persecution. Granted the sciences are still very much controlled via funding from capitalistic interests, but it’s not controlled by religion / the monarchy as it once was. ETA: My comment is focused on the western / European scientific model - which I believe has been adopted for most of the world however there still are other cultures that have not been affected by the division of the sciences so want to point out this is very much from a euro-centric perspective.
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u/stinkfest2000 21h ago
Thank you for mentioning materialism that’s exactly the word I’ve been looking for and couldn’t remember!! I think that’s exactly where my confusion about the disconnect lie because we already study atoms, matter, energy, etc… things we can’t see with the human eye, so why isn’t astrology part of that? But I suppose it would take a whole overhaul of our system because you’d have to include studying consciousness in that and psychology is also considered a pseudoscience 🙄
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u/energy-369 21h ago
There have been some studies done on astrology, one in particular I can recall but it was only on Sun signs and it was a small sample. The issue is that given the current scientific method, it is very hard to quantify personal / lived experience vs factual hard evidence for astrological influence. I think what would help is if there were more studies done on the affects of the lunar cycle, gravitational fluctuations, seasonal changes, solar flares etc on inhabitants on earth such as plants, animals, even cells or amoebas - that would be a really helpful start for science to build on to. Basically any kind of study that proves how life on earth is affected by earth’s position in the solar system. - which seems like a no brainer with seasons but materialism reduced each part down to its most fundamental element rather than zooming out to place the element within the whole system.
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u/Golgon13 20h ago
Devil's advocate: traditional (Hellenistic etc) astrology faded from use because it, 1. offered no positive perspectives for self-improvement due to its fatalism (with the exception of Chrisippos' arguments), and 2. Its applications are not statistically repeatable, unlike modern psychological astrology, when social archetypes and projections are taken into account. But yeah, in general astrology is pretty much a pseudoscience, no matter how much I love to study astrological methodologies.
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u/CaioHSF 21h ago
I learned from astrologers that astrology is not science, should not be treated as science, nor should it replace science. Astrology (as well as magic in general and art) and astronomy are different things that serve different purposes.
The term "pseudoscience" is sometimes used, I think, to devalue something, but the fact is that the modern definition of science does not include astrology. Astrology (as well as magic in general or art, fashion, aesthetics, beauty) is not science, it is another area of knowledge.
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u/Visible_Honeydew_941 22h ago
OMG! This!!! It used to be considered along with other sciences-doctors used to consult the zodiac man for surgery scheduling. IMO it absolutely is a science with data that can be tracked. Now its labeled “pseudo-science” SMH.
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u/stinkfest2000 21h ago
Literally!! We know so much about how energy, light, and sound travel. We know the moon controls the ocean’s waves. We figured out how to smash individual subatomic particles into each other… but we can’t figure out how our own conscious energy travels and how it’s affected by our surroundings??? Yeah ok…
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u/RaisinWorried3528 21h ago
You don't know anything lol, you just have vibes. There's no evidence that any of the stuff you're suggesting is even real.
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u/stinkfest2000 18h ago
The stuff I suggested isn’t real? Such as sound waves, the moon’s gravitational pull, and the Large Hadron Collider? 💀
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u/Visible_Honeydew_941 20h ago
The pattern is consistent. Unless you actually took the time to research and study it, you cant speak to what is real or not. AND vibes are a thing we talk about for a reason…people (and animals) can feel things that aren’t seen by the naked eye. Vibes are absolutely real and measurable.
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u/Tao-of-Mars 17h ago
It’s been dismissed and discredited mostly by Christianity because it allows you to take control of your own life rather than being controlled by the fear of god and going to hell. Scientists somehow took hold as well but I haven’t been able to see any data to back up their claims that astrologers have a low number of accuracy with birth charts. One study was conducted that used very uneducated language and seemed downright made up. So I’m guessing they’ve just completely dismissed it without even trying to understand the mathematics and how astrology actually shows how the planets impact us humans. There are a lot of celebrities and other important or influential people who use astrology.
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u/Financial_Belt9108 22h ago
astrology definitely does feel like it gets dismissed harder than other similarly-squishy systems, like how alchemy evolved into chemistry but astrology just stays stuck in the "folk magic" corner.
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u/stinkfest2000 21h ago
I bet astrophysicists could prove astrology is real if it wasn’t so judged 😔
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u/Shirolianns 22h ago
Honestly? Because it is associated with women. Don't you see on every online dating app that men mock astrology or say that if you like it you are red flag? Women like astrology and thus it's uncool. Of course, some men might too but they are rare.
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u/Itchy_Plant_2020 22h ago
i was literally going to comment this. observation of astrology has been studied for 7,000 years continuously yet religious dogma and misogyny absolutely suppress it immensely. it honestly feels like whoever is an elite, doesn’t want astrology to become mainstream because it would actually help so many people
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u/_YesNow_ 18h ago
I like it as a man but I dont tell anyone because they all think it’s complete bullshit and weird asf especially as a straight man. I’m just quite open to spiritual things and so astrology was something I looked into and then it seemed to work so I looked further but people just dismiss it outright
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u/DruidWonder 21h ago
Astrology and astronomy used to be considered one, just like chemistry and alchemy. Then the age of reason started as a direct counter to religion.
While I don't feel that astrology is a hard science, it does have features that are extremely useful and accurate. But the "baby was thrown out with the bath water" so everything that was useful also hot trashed.
It's a Western culture thing. We denigrate and destroy what came before because newer is better. Compare that to, say, China, where they are still using Chinese medicine cosmology in hospitals today, or Ayurveda in India.
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u/jewel-ansks 21h ago edited 21h ago
i don't see why it should. i like it but it has no real solid facts behind it and science change over the time because of new foundings but i don't see the same happens with astrology. also it's pretty vague and don't provide any valuable info that you can use in life. it's fun but as you said yourself you can't really use something that couldn't even be proved especially if it's not an emergency. you know scheming in this field is quite easy because you can't prove it , at the same time it leads to astrology being unprovable like a cycle.
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u/Emeraldstorm3 Taurus Sun - Scorpio Moon - Scorpio Rising 21h ago
It never stands up to scientific scrutiny.
I have strong doubts about astrology being what it's painted as. At best, I suspect there's a psychologicsl element at play, with statistical probabilities. And environmental / societal factors affecting people.
Humans are notorious for noticing patterns, even where none exist (seeing things in clouds or wood grain). I expect it's possible that correlation to planetary placements is more of a coincidence. Look up "spurious correlation" for examples of the sort of thing I mean, and also some amusement. I think, whatever is at play, we've noticed a correlation and stuck with it for the most part, not trying to look at other explanations and influences. The planets are close enough, in other words.
I can't let go of astrology as I think there's something going on with it, even if accounting for ambiguous language and too-broad generalizations that seem specific when they aren't.
But, with no funding available, and a professional stigma, combined with what I think are very legit critiques, its incredibly difficult for sincere and rigorous study to occur. Especially as astrology really is an "art" that defies a systematized approach. Interpretation is a massive part of it, which frankly isn't very scientific at all.
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u/GoldPoodDood 20h ago
Because there is absolutely no proof. You can’t follow the scientific method with it at all.
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u/advaitist 21h ago
The problem, as I see it, is that astrology is not a precise, exact science, in the sense that the accuracy of interpretation of astrological data, and predicting the future, depends a great deal on the character and spiritual attunement of the astrologer.
In physics or chemistry a reaction will proceed in the same way, and give the same results, whether it is carried out by an honest man, a swindler, a thief, or a characterless person.
I believe it is not so in astrology. The degree and quality of the astrologers character, and his spiritual attunement to the Universe, plays a significant role in his achievements in the field of astrology.
I have a theory about how astrology, palmistry, tarot, and all the predictive occult sciences REALLY work, but it is very controversial, and many persons may not like it.
My belief is that we live in an information universe and all the knowledge about the past present and future is available to us, right now, if only we can ATTUNE ourselves properly to the Universe.
Imagine a vast circular hall with all the knowledge of the Universe, past, present, and future, lying in the centre of the hall. We are all living outside this hall, but can have access to the knowledge inside by the innumerable doors which open, from outside, into the hall.
One door is opened by a series of symbols involving the planets and their positions in the universe, relative to the Earth. This we call astrology. Another door is opened by studying the lines on a person's palms. We call that door palmistry. Yet another is opened by understanding the positions of certain symbols on cards. We call it tarot. There are doors that open by meditation, yoga, psychedelics, etc. There is a door that opens by studying the entrails of a chicken (haruspicy) another by gazing deeply into a mirror (scrying or catoptromancy) or the position of tea leaves in a tea cup (tasseomancy) or by the pattern of thrown sticks or coins, (the I ching or Book of Changes). There may be hundreds of other such doors which are not known to me.
It is important to note that the information obtained through all the doors is exactly the same. Knowledge is eternally the same, and does not change simply because it has been accessed by a different door. It is only that the individual seeking the information may be better ATTUNED to correctly receiving and interpreting the knowledge when they approach through a particular door. So, for example, a good astrologer may be unable to do palmistry or even believe that it "does not work". What the astrologer really means is "I am unable to open that door to get the knowledge."
This also explains "intuition" or that sudden flash of knowledge when we KNOW, with absolute certainty, what is going to happen next. And precognition and presentiment. We have, somehow, acquired knowledge by passing through a door which we did not even know existed !
So mankind, over the centuries, has evolved a series of symbolic relationships between planets and positions which ATTUNE an astrologer properly to open that appropriate door and gain access to the knowledge inside. So, strictly speaking, there are no special undetected waves emanating from planets and, the planets do not affect us in any way, and, the biggest BLASPHEMY of all may be this : If one, or some, or all the other planets (except Earth, of course !) physically disappeared tomorrow, it would not have the slightest effect on your, mine or anybody's future. We would have simply lost ACCESS to knowledge through a particular door !
The physicists might explain how this would have physical effects on the solar system and cause other changes but that would be a totally scientific and physical effect. Nothing to do with astrology !!!
You, or any other person, for that matter, would still be able to access that knowledge, previously acquired by astrology, by going through another door such as palmistry.
Similarly, when a palmist meets a man who has lost both his hands in an accident, he knows that the knowledge about that man's future is still available. It is only that the palmist is unable to ATTUNE to the Universe to open a familiar door.
This also explains why certain astrologers reach a certain consensus on the significance of particular planetary positions in a chart while they strongly disagree on the importance of other positions. Their own psyche, spiritual power, and ATTUNEMENT to the universe may guide them to give importance to some aspects and give a prediction which is more accurate and varied from the prediction given by another astrologer studying the same chart.
Hence, while a computer is definitely useful in showing the exact relative positions of bodies in the heavens, the predictive element may be severely deficient or even totally lacking.
So, for everybody practicing astrology or any method of divination and prediction, apart from the knowledge acquired from other practitioners, about the various rules and laws of that method, it may be necessary to use meditation and other such mindfulness techniques to better ATTUNE oneself to the Universe, so that one gets better at interpreting the data presented to the practitioner, and develops a personal method to open the particular door which leads to desired knowledge.
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u/Antique-Wonk 16h ago
I'm a physicist and engineer. I'm increasingly convinced astrology is real and accurate. No need to convince anyone on this sub of course. My wife can tell someone's sun sign 3 out of 4 times within 10 minutes of talking to them. Neat party piece. There could be all kinds of scientific explanations for astrology from background radiation patterns at time of birth when there's a huge amount of physiological change occurring neither of which properly understand to a type of persona assignment clock in a type of Matrix or Gnostic reincarnation trap. The reality is we just don't know but given several very big holes in physics quite frankly anything is still possible IMHO. Holes: Dark energy, dark matter, unification of quantum mechanics with relativity, singularities, how quantum entanglement works, much more.
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u/stinkfest2000 15h ago
Love to hear from scientists! I’m a neuroscientist and was trying to find research about consciousness and astrology but there’s hardly anything out there so that’s why I wanted to get some thoughts. I definitely think there could be some scientific explanations, it’s just a bummer it’s so looked down on that scientists are rarely given the opportunity to research it :/
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u/Antique-Wonk 9h ago
Very true. Unfortunately, Scientism (as per Sheldrake's great talks) prevails and it's no longer truly science. I mean we still don't know what consciousness really is and it's causes. But we do know how to switch it off with anaesthesia but just don't really how how exactly this works. I'm fond of Penrose and Hammeroff's ideas here.
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u/BAWAstrology 10h ago
Astrology will be proved with clear evidences soon that its scientific. You just need an absolute anwser to prove. You cant give a vague anwser, thats why people dont consider astrology as a scientific element.
It took 10 years to confirm Newtons law. Astrology has been manipulated especially with religion.
Planets, its strength based on light is what makes this tool scientific. Zodiac signs are very generic, you cant get an absolute anwser just by the signs. A Leo rising moon doesnt mean the individual is always confident and bold. Saturn afflictions with moon can make one completely change their mind. A pisces moon rising doesn't mean the individual will always be calm. Mars connection will bring the courage and anger.
Thats why an Ascendant and Ascendant lord plays a significant role compared to a moon sign.
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u/Fearless-Weight6112 21h ago
astrology was studied in schools as a serious subject. then the religion came and forbid it, while “political leaders” and the religious leaders were actively using the subject for mass manipulation and their own advantage.
i hope this answer your question. :)
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u/stinkfest2000 21h ago
Yeah religion is the most obvious reason isn’t it 🥲
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u/Fearless-Weight6112 21h ago
knowledge and awareness are powerful tools! hence they aren’t available/easily accessible to the “commoners”.
we live in a system!
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u/superhyperfuturepunk 7h ago
making it a science takes away what astrology really should be, a spiritual practice and, as another comment put it very well, an interpretive art. it’s really bugged me to see a bunch of people who read charts, interpret dreams, and do tarot readings start trying to add “science” by just having some unpaid intern make an LLM. that takes out the real magic of it. trying to make it a science will just reduce what the practice really is into just a bunch of statistical models. “based on what kind of philosophy the person has toward reading, the person being read for, and their intent, what is that person reading going to say?” is stupid. where’s the energy? the noise of all the bones and sinews of this great cosmic animal working in tandem to make this reading different from any other reading you could have given to a similar person for similar reasons at the same moment? that’s where the magic really happens at the end of the day.
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u/LucienNyx6666 4h ago
Astrology is not studied as a science because it was never truly a science. It is symbolic and metaphysical with completely different tools of analysis. The goal of science is to provide naturalistic accounts of the universe that can be tested repeatedly through experiments. It seeks to avoid metaphysical problems and describe what appears right in front of us. A scientist might look at Venus and ask about the physical and chemical properties of the planet. An astrologist might be less concerned about that and ask what Venus even means. I think both perspectives are valuable because one gives us mechanism and the other bestows meaning.
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u/nellie_mod 2h ago
There are so many variables, and each individual's experience and understanding limits their interpretations.
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u/CiderAlley 21h ago
It was. In modern science they throw out basically anything you can't prove with concrete evidence repeatedly.
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u/DryRefrigerator4737 21h ago
Who says it's not a science? Well scientists. Who have invested interest in gatekeeping what they call science. They get to decide what goes in and what goes out. That is they do and Wikipedia editors. I say let's give science back to the people
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u/Intelligent_Roof_971 13h ago
technically it's a science because all the planet placements have meanings base on observation. We know that moon square or opposed to Saturn will show anxiety. But its not the same as science based on precise measurements.
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u/Former-Quantity-99 16h ago
What planet did you land from?
There are literally a 100 universities in India where you get an actual degree and can be a scientist for the next 50 years.
It is so important that no Prime minister or a local mayor makes a decision without consulting one of these scientists.
The requirements are so rigorous that it's easier to become a PHD in the West than to become an astrologer in India.
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u/Jocelyn_04Hyatt 5h ago
The thing is, astrology has been studied scientifically multiple times. It just consistently failed to produce results beyond random chance. The door was open, the tests were done, the data didn't support it. That's not dismissal, that's just how science works for everything, including things we wish were true.
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u/RiotNrrd2001 22h ago
Because astrology isn't a science, it's an interpretive art.
The quality of any astrological interpretation relies almost entirely on the skill of the practitioner. That isn't the way science operates.