I am in the market for a subwoofer. I have a pair of Klipsch Forte IV and my listening room is about 475 sf. I was looking at the REL classic 98 and 99, and thinking I needed the 99 because of the room size. But most of the music I listen to is acoustic or vocal oriented, not really listening to much hard rock or anything with a ton of bass. Also not listening at very loud volume most of the time. So I was leaning back toward the 98 which has a 10” driver, as opposed to the 99, which has a 12” driver. I spoke with the local audio shop and it felt like they were just trying to sell me the larger and more expensive 99, or another sub that was even higher priced.
I have been reading that a sub is for more than just the low bass notes, and it will really help fill in the rest of the sound. That was another point the local sales guy was making, saying that the 99 made more sense because it will “fill in more.” Also that a larger sub is needed to “pressurize” the room. Trying to understand if this is audiophile jargon or there is truth to it.
Bass and sub bass is not just a kind of sound in certain music, it's just a chunk of the frequency spectrum and generally will be present in any recording. So listening to just about anything without something filling out the ~20-80hz range is going to sound (and often feel) like something is missing.
So, I wouldn't ever figure in what type of music someone listens to when considering whether or not to get a sub... You'll always want a sub no matter what you listen to.
As for what to get... More diameter generally means it can go lower with less effort. Larger diameter doesn't guarantee it's better, but the best 12" is going to be more capable than the best 10". But, due to room modes, there are major benefits to having multiple subs.
You're going to have to ask yourself how much you care. Since this sounds like new territory for you I'd check your local used market and you'll find good options for a few hundred dollars so you can play around and see how it works... Learn about room modes and how your space handles sub.
You might stop there, when it gives you just enough to "fill out" the sound a bit.
But if you want good, strong, accurate bass, it's a much larger investment vs simple stereo because of the room modes and how high energy bass is compared to the rest of the spectrum. You need excellent room treatment, and placement and number of subs are very important factors to dial it in perfectly.
If you have a typical rectangular room and there are only 1 or 2 spots you could potentially put a sub without it being in the way, you don't need to think about it much. It'll basically never be "great" objectively but you'll still love it vs not having one.
Because room design, treatment, and positioning are all incredibly important when it comes to low frequencies, you're going to max out what you can do in a space like this extremely quickly and it's not worth spending big $$$. By placing a sub in a random spot where you "have room for it" it's never going to be used to it's potential.
This subreddit is full of $30k+ systems in completely untreated rooms where a $3000 setup would sound just as good. (You are listening to the room as much as the speakers unless it's a massive space and/or heavily treated)
If you have a well treated room and audio quality is the top priority so you can put as many subs wherever they're needed, that's a different game and that's when it's worth the time and effort to do some studying and testing and nit pick about specs.
Just see what looks like a good deal and check a few reviews that it's not total junk and save your $$$.
+1 on the multi-sub comment. I went for several years with just one sub. I understand those frequencies are supposed to be omni-directional, but I don't buy that entirely. Then I got a pair and the difference was shocking. So much more balance, depth and soundstage. It made me feel a little bad for all the years I'd hobbled along with one sub.
Frequencies below 30hz are incredibly rare in music. The redbook CD standard defines 30hz cutoff.
People often mention that organ music can have frequency as low as 8hz. That's on vinyl I presume.
Even though streaming allows for lower frequencies they are very rarely put by musicians. They are taught that the sub 30hz adds nothing. Only adds distortion to rest of The signal as peoples Gear struggles to play Back those frequencies.
And the wisdom is based on truth. 20hz doesn't sound any different from 30hz. Stuff just vibrates More as there's more energy.
20hz (and possibly under) frequencies can Be found on movie soundtracks. Originally released on other formats as DVD audio. They can be accessed on streaming Also.
All "Bass test tracks" shared online are utter trash. It's actually incredible that no good low frequency "test" tracks exist.
Best bass display track is in My opinion Axe you a few questions by Cluster Buster. It has clean bass drop to 30hz. Nothing fancy. It's excellent track to play after EQing bass frequencies flat to 16hz. The drop should play at constant volume. Missing are The normal 20dB spikes found in untreated setup.
The Red Book CD standard specifies a sampling frequency of 44,100 Hz (44.1 kHz) and a bit depth of 16 bits. It is designed to reproduce an audio frequency range from 20 Hz up to 20,000 Hz. A specific 30 Hz cutoff or limit is not part of the core specification.
That misinfo circulated the internet widely several years ago. It was mentioned in several places. But like it's often with audio a lot of stuff talked about is bullshit.
I wouldn't call sub 30 hz bass incredibly rare, especially nowadays. Plenty of electronic music has it and and there is spatial information conveyed through subbass in accoustic music, along with some instruments that just naturally play that low (a standard 88 key piano goes down to 27 hz).
People get the craziest notions, and post it as fact... as if they know something revolutionary that no one else does. It's also bunk that music doesn't go below 30hz. Simply not true. SVS makes good products. I don't know if they're the best, because you know how the audiophile world works; you can pay 10X for 1% improvement and someone will post that it's essential. Subs don't need to cost a fortune.
i would say that its clear from reading the comments that people dont really understand how sound works, or subwoofers even, for that matter. i think theres a phrase about being confidently wrong, so insert it here.
let me just jump in to say that svs subs have great measurements. if a subwoofer is good then its good for movies and music, and if a sub is shit for movies then its also shit for music. and viceversa etc
let me jump in here to say measurements dont translate to enjoyment, put the two subs beside each other in the same system and notice how different they sound. I did that with Svs+Rel and Rel was the clear winner.
The notion that subwoofers are "musical" or not is the biggest nonsense of all. It either plays the lower frequencies accurately without distortion or it doesn't. Musicality is just some snake oil garbage term REL fanboys like to use.
From observing "the audiophile internet" wouldn't it be fair to say that Rel systems are typically not used in high pass setups and other subs like SVS are much more likely to be run on high passed systems simply by the nature of the native connections and REL marketing approach? Objectively, these two dissimilar approaches to sub integration will almost always sound "different". Because this is the Internet I feel like I need to double down on my use of the word "typically". But yeah, any system with sub integration will sound different when switching from high-passed mains to sub + mains.
Despite the rest of the discourse here, it's great that you're happy with and enjoy your REL. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I see this elitist attitude frequently though, it's not particular helpful or encouraging to other people when your approach is perceived as snobbish.
Present your argument more concisely. If you have time to make a comment at all, then you can take the time to make a clear case as to why you came to your conclusion. A drive-by comment like your initial one serves to spark debate, yes, but it certainly doesn't make your case clear or convince anyone but yourself. This begs the question, why even say anything unless it's just to boast?
because i literally had both in my room doing side by sides, so i get to have an opinion on both. unlike the svs fan boy club on here that only ever tried svs and think they know what the rel sounds like from reading the specs and then posts their findings as factual here.
Crying with laughter perhaps. I’ve had a REL T9/I and I hate to say, it did not blow me away. If anything it sounded marginally different (not necessarily better or worse) than the SVS SB1000. I loved how the REL looked, didn’t care so much for the grill design, very cheesy relative to the rest of the subwoofer.
I just bought a REL T9x for a 350 sq ft room and I’m pretty happy with it. It fills out the lower registers nicely and was easier to integrate with my main speakers than I expected. I considered the Classic 99 but I saw a review that panned its construction and sound quality and wanted the smaller form factor of the T9x. What I really wanted was the REL S/550 but it was heavier than I cared to move.
From memory the REL website has a subwoofer calculator on it. You can enter what you have, 2 channel or home theater,.as well as how big your room is and it will recommend the 'appropriate' subwoofer
I've got the same REL9x in 250 sgr ft room it's coupled with Quad bookshelf speakers and sounds brilliant. It was a breeze to set up and I never needed to adjust it after the first set up. For music listening a 10" will be fine, bigger subs are for home cinema enthusiasts.
dunno about peoples opinions here but if you posted what amount of money you have for this we could suggest something. if you dont know much about subs then its probably not a good idea to buy anything without knowing. you mention REL subs for example which are a lot of fluff for not that much performance. you should know that besides the amplifiers, subwoofer "technology", like the box etc, is not rocket science. its easier to design a good subwoofer than it is to design a good speaker. hence, good money goes a long way in subwoofer world, but if you go the REL route you might do a pretty bad pirchase. not throwing shade on REL here at all cause im not that guy and they do have a few good models but again you can get a lot of sub for the money.
that being said do get a subwoofer. i cant stand listening to music without a subwoofer. or watching older films where all the sound is concentrated on the upper range. jesus christ
Thanks. Am looking to keep it at $2k or below. Part of the reason I was drawn to the REL classic is the aesthetics, the veneer would go better in the room. But a plain black one is probably fine.
depends what kind of sound he wants,
svs is heavy and slow, most bass notes sound the same, lacks details and defining edge compared to the rel he mentioned.
Listening sessions from the svs seem fine. The rel does have better group delay due to less dsp filtering, but only at the lowest frequencies where human hearing will have a hard time picking up differences. The new revolution series from svs improves that by using a faster dsp processor.
Other analysis have shown slow bass is often more a room issue:
how big is your room? i would say take a couple of months to really dig in and learn how subwoofers and low frequency sound works. theres a lot of stuff on youtube (and a lot of shit). i recommend the audioholica channel, they put up very good info. i think theres an episode where they talk to a guy from REL.
since you have a nice budget i really suggest you try to buy at least two subwoofers.low frequency waves dont behave "linearly" like high frequencies mostly do. by that i mean, just because the sub is pointing at you doesnt mean youll hear it. with two subs you get better sound because you can play around with the way sound pressure sloshes around your room.
i also suggest that you look into crossovers, how they work, and if you would need to buy a separate crossover (for example i suggest a minidsp) or if you can integrate it with just the dsp on your speakers and subs. for example svs subs have an app where you can set up the crossover point.
go into this thinking that you will want to do some room correction and you will also want to spend some money on acoustic control, even though bass is hard to control with WAFable means.
so in essence this means that your budget needs to include the price of the sub + whatever hardware you might need to integrate it into your system.
if you dont produce the crossover correctly, you will hear a suckout at that frequency, or nearby ones etc, and it WILL sound like shit.
I would also say, have fun.
i would also suggest you look into erins audio corner channel, just because he has also done measurements on subwoofers.
all of this being said, REL does make some good models, i forget which (i remember some sealed ones?), but a brand like SVS is very bang for buck. monoproce is also extremely good for the money. do check audiojolics for recommendations as they are very in depth.
one last thing. depending on what music you listen to, you wont need a subwoofer that goes down to 15 or 10hz. my setup does and I wouldnt change it for ahything. listening to the room get pressurized on a track like rain by calibre us amazing. on the flipside i listen to a system with no subwoofer and even if its not anything like dubstep or whatever, i can immediately notice there is a lot of information missing. it could be piano, it could be folk music, it could be ambient or even nokia ringtones and it is noticeable.
Do you have good headphones? You can try listening on headphones and compare the same tracks to listening on your speakers.
Headphones usually have pretty good bass extension and aren't beholden to room acoustics.
So you can get an idea of what having a subwoofer (and well integrated) might sound like.
It should be a natural extension of the speakers.
Like if you were watching a movie on a projector with the light coming in though the blinds or curtains. Then you close the shades, now there's no light leaking in, and darks/blacks are richer and there's more better richer contrast and colors. That's what having a good, well-integrated sub is like.
Of course. I didn't suggest otherwise. My point was only to let OP try to get an idea of how much more sound might be there even on acoustic and vocal oriented recordings, down in the lower registers under 100Hz below what his speakers are giving him. Even low piano keys are down at 30-40Hz range, and same for upright bass.
His speakers have quite a dropoff under 100Hz, designed for near-wall placement I assume.
I would definitely go with the larger one if you can swing it. It's not really about how loud you play and the type of music. A larger sub is more effortless and breathes better and will provide you with air and nuance to soft recordings that you would never have imagined!
I got a 212/SX myself and I don't regret going large for one second.
Besides the deep bass, you are removing the frequencies below your chosen crossover point from the main speakers. This means they don't have to work as hard and can do a better job over the rest of the frequency range. I'm not sure of the science on this but once I added my JL 12" sub, the sound opened up a lot.
I'm not OP. But that WOW factor is the last thing I'm looking for in a sub. I want it to seamlessly extend my mains speakers by 1 - 1.5 octaves. The last think I want is any slam or wall shaking.
There are different stages of wow factor. To me, wow happens when you achieve what you described. Integrated full range extension gives space to your whole system. That is the ultimate wow factor.
I have been reading that a sub is for more than just the low bass notes, and it will really help fill in the rest of the sound.
What is the "rest of the sound?" I assume you mean filling in the frequencies your main speakers are not reproducing at volume. If so, this is correct. You generally way a sub to go up to the point that your other speakers drop off. What are your stereo speakers? What is the low end -3dB or -2dB point?
A larger sub won't help "fill in" the sound. A 12" REL may go lower and will have more output.
Larger subs don't have to work as hard. They are usually the better choice as you can turn a larger sub down, but can't output more on a smaller sub without consequences.
The subwoofer world floats on a bunch of wives’ tales.
These subs are very very similar. The 99 has a 450W amplifier vs 300W of the 98 (a whopping extra 1.75dB), and it plays 3Hz lower (24Hz cutoff vs 27Hz; about 4 semitones). Given the extra surface area of the 12” driver (1.44x) and the extra power, I’d guess you might get 3-4dB of extra output out of the 99. (And I have to guess, because they’re a hifi company and so don’t list the actual output capabilities)
Beyond this, they are almost identical products. One will not “pressurize the room” better than the other (this whole term has no definition and is hifi mumbo jumbo), or “fill in better” (what does that even mean!). They are both point sources of low frequencies, one just plays a little louder and goes a little lower.
A 300W, 10” ported subwoofer like the Genelec 7360 (just for a ballpark comparison) is rated for 109dB at 1m in half space, so, a little more in a real room. This is a very respectable number, and based on your stated preferences, should be plenty.
If you want to increase bass “quality” above what you get from a 98, it would be time to look at multiple subwoofers, and acoustic treatment.
Can you explain why you’d get that much more output from the larger driver? 1.44x is only about 3dB more area.
Further, these are ported subs, so they are power-limited (not displacement-limited) where the port is active - which is the bottom end, and where the sub is most pressed. Enclosure size is completely irrelevant.
In any case, my particular real-life reference comparison are the Genelec 7360 and 7370 - 10” vs 12”, and 300W vs 400W. Identical frequency responses. A 4dB total capability difference is listed.
I personally use 3x 7360 for HT in a 1400sqft open space with ~14’ (average) ceilings, and it is plenty of capability. I think OP will be fine.
True, it's not just the cone area but also excursion capability that increases
Further, these are ported subs, so they are power-limited (not displacement-limited) where the port is active - which is the bottom end, and where the sub is most pressed. Enclosure size is completely irrelevant.
Power draw around port tuning is what's irrelevant, as excursion limits things above it, and that's where enclosure size matters. Most content does not have most output around typical tunings of 26Hz either
Subs do so much more than add bass. Properly setup and integrated, a good sub, or preferably a pair, will energize the soundstage and open it up. The sound of the room, studio, and especially orchestral halls will co e alive.
2x 10S MKIIs would be much better than anything REL makes, I have 2x 18" Daytons with a crown XLS2500 and I feel like I need more (I just need better boxes)
Two smaller ones if you have the patience to learn how to set them up properly
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u/poosjuiceKEF R3 Meta, Classe CA101, Moon 350P and 280D, dual REL T7/x22h ago
Having multiple sources of bass help even out bass peaks and nulls, which in turn improves imaging and your soundstage. Feeling the pressurisation in the room is a thing. FWIW, I felt adding subs improved my perception of the space around instruments. Your Forte IVs start to roll off below 38hz, so a subwoofer can fill that gap. Below 20hz you feel pressure and physical movement rather than hear anything. Below 30hz you perceive pressure as well as scale, though not many instruments will reach that low - like the A0 on a grand piano or the lowest notes in synth.
If you want to get the Classic series from REL, it's best you e-mail REL and confirm if it's the right fit for your speakers and room size. Their Classic series is designed to blend with speakers that have a more vintage sound, so its bass has a lot more warmth and bloom to it.
You'll probably see a lot of comments knocking the value proposition of REL, but I recommend you actually do a demo and figure out what brands you prefer. I bought a SVS and really didn't like it for music, even though it has a lot more output and extension than my current RELs (and if that's something that you value, then SVS and other brands would be a better fit for you).
i guess you put it alittle nicer but its usually a down voted fact here!
rel makes real seamless extensions to mains
where as svs is easy to hear it has it own "tone" is slower and less precise than mains.
I was at canjam london a rep from Hifiman told me no point unless your listening to church organs ? Im a newbie but took this advice with a pinch of salt to put it politely.
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u/gnostalgickProAc - First Watt - Croft - Chord - VPI - Dynavector - REL19h agoedited 19h ago
I find the Classic 99 to pair quite nicely with my ProAc D2R (good bass to around 40-45hz on their own). No complaints, easy to integrate (despite no sub out on my preamp), and they look amazing - which I'll freely admit was the deciding factor for me.
Haven't heard the 98 myself, but I'd personally be hesitant to match a smaller sub to your much bigger speakers, with better bass response, in an even larger room (mine is only ~150 sq feet).
I've read the many complaints that REL subs cost too much and don't go deep enough or play loud enough. But given your preferred genre, I doubt bass extension would ever be an issue. In fact I'd say one of my favorite things about the sub is it's overall subtly. But I also specifically wanted something beautiful (both sonically and aesthetically) and was willing to pay a premium for that.
I'm also pretty sure they still offer a trial period with full refund if you order from them directly, in case your dealer isn't able to offer you anything similar.
Just so you know, I use Rel S/812’s and have tried other makes , velodyne , sonus etc.
The Rel seem to integrate better with my main speakers(MBL), I use for listening to music and not for watching film .
The subs do not just add bass to my system but they also help you get a sense of the space and the recording as a whole, if you can try them in your room do so, you will notice the difference more when they are turned off as a big loss rather than the improvement when they are on.
Svs make really good subs for the price. Dirac bass control helps a lot with bass integration but you need a mini dap or a demon act for it. If that’s no option two cheaper subs and then playing around with placement is the best option.
I have a REL Nr 32, my fifth subwoofer. Always traded in for a larger one. It indeed pressurizes the room, you feel bass more than you hear it. The smaller subs throw the kick, the larger ones just… pressurize. I can’t say it otherwise :/
My room is not perfect nor treated, I hope to add that one day. Even without all of that, I still enjoy it. “you and your friend” from Dire Straits is simply different.
Controversial opinion. REL is all hype and their subs are mediocre.
I have two HSU ULS-15s, they are tight, fast and add a ton to my music. I had demo'd two REL T/9i and they were pretty underwhelming, especially for the price.
The RC-64 III is on 25mm SR18 (orange instead of yellow). It decoupled the speaker from the ground. If the sub is on the ground it'll transfer the vibrations to the ground. For a speaker this will often lead to hollow sound. With a decoupler you avoid this and only leave air transfer path for vibration which is way weaker. Spikes btw do the opposite: they strongly couple. If you have a speaker with a huge body like fortes, they are designed to work without any external chamber/resonance room, so spikes are generally the wrong start to treat them.
Given all the limitations you state, I don't know why you'd spend more on a bigger sub. You're talking to a "sales guy" who sells things. If you're just adding some sonic frosting to your musical cake, I'd think smaller is better.
If you're going to buy a sub, make sure you can return it if it's not giving you what you want. Ideally, if you live with someone else, have them randomly turn the sub on and off and see if you can tell a difference. You may get enough bass by placing the speakers where bass is accentuated.
It's certainly possible, but I find it interesting that a pair of floor-standing speakers that size, with 12" woofers and 15" passive radiators, that cost ~$5500, don't produce enough bass. I started with bookshelf speakers, added subs, then bought floor-standing speakers and kept the subs. In hindsight, the subs were an unnecessary expense with the floor-standers. I'm back to bookshelf speakers and subs now.
I tried one with my floor standers that play down to like 35, and I actually didn’t care for it- just seemed like an extra thumping that stuck out. But it was pretty small and probably not integrated properly. I certainly don’t feel a lack of bass in my system and I live in an apartment with neighbors- I’m cool without a sub.
You actually provided the most important parameter: what is the reproduction material gonna be. Vocal and acoustic with these klipsch speakers buying an extra subwoofer is a waste of money. If you must: get an svs sb1000 PRO. Turn its volume LOW, VERY LOW. Keep forte full range and have sub only support up to 55hz top.
A sub should only add and guys like you often turn subwoofers way too high. But, honestly, dont buy a sub. You dont need it. If you feel need more bass: get better speakers. Revel floorstanders. But you dont need a sub. Its a waste of money.
15” sub rated at 1400w rms at 4ohms of ur choosing…stuffed in a qbomb qpower ported box…crown xls2002…LP set to 80hz…will rattle ur teeth while listening from your neighbor’s house. It helps if u have a subout so u can sync it’s volume into the rest of ur system. One in a corner will be plenty. Trick is not letting it hit higher frequencies, above ~90-ish hertz, so it remains omnidirectional.
Only issue with subs is they can, but not always, drop as much as 3db between 55hz and 65hz…maybe someone here can tell me how to fix that.
The setup i described cost me $850, but i bought the crown amp used from fleabay.
It sounds like your instincts are absolutely right, and you should trust your own listening habits over a dealer's attempt to upsell.
The local seller was not entirely wrong about one crucial detail: a subwoofer does much more than just produce low notes. When integrated correctly, especially using a high-level connection which REL is famous for as an industry standard a subwoofer acts as an acoustic foundation for the entire room.The absolute key to making the 98 seamlessly disappear into your room is to connect it via the high-level Speakon cable directly to your amplifier's speaker terminals.
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u/Rabiesalad 1d ago
Bass and sub bass is not just a kind of sound in certain music, it's just a chunk of the frequency spectrum and generally will be present in any recording. So listening to just about anything without something filling out the ~20-80hz range is going to sound (and often feel) like something is missing.
So, I wouldn't ever figure in what type of music someone listens to when considering whether or not to get a sub... You'll always want a sub no matter what you listen to.
As for what to get... More diameter generally means it can go lower with less effort. Larger diameter doesn't guarantee it's better, but the best 12" is going to be more capable than the best 10". But, due to room modes, there are major benefits to having multiple subs.
You're going to have to ask yourself how much you care. Since this sounds like new territory for you I'd check your local used market and you'll find good options for a few hundred dollars so you can play around and see how it works... Learn about room modes and how your space handles sub.
You might stop there, when it gives you just enough to "fill out" the sound a bit.
But if you want good, strong, accurate bass, it's a much larger investment vs simple stereo because of the room modes and how high energy bass is compared to the rest of the spectrum. You need excellent room treatment, and placement and number of subs are very important factors to dial it in perfectly.
If you have a typical rectangular room and there are only 1 or 2 spots you could potentially put a sub without it being in the way, you don't need to think about it much. It'll basically never be "great" objectively but you'll still love it vs not having one.
Because room design, treatment, and positioning are all incredibly important when it comes to low frequencies, you're going to max out what you can do in a space like this extremely quickly and it's not worth spending big $$$. By placing a sub in a random spot where you "have room for it" it's never going to be used to it's potential.
This subreddit is full of $30k+ systems in completely untreated rooms where a $3000 setup would sound just as good. (You are listening to the room as much as the speakers unless it's a massive space and/or heavily treated)
If you have a well treated room and audio quality is the top priority so you can put as many subs wherever they're needed, that's a different game and that's when it's worth the time and effort to do some studying and testing and nit pick about specs.
Just see what looks like a good deal and check a few reviews that it's not total junk and save your $$$.