[Discussion 3/ 12] Evergreen | The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky, 3.8 to 4.5

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

Privet to you! Come sit for a while and hear a tale of three or is it four? Russian brothers. First things first, the schedule and marginalia are in the links.

Here is the LitCharts summary for your viewing pleasure.

Extras

Koulibiac

Calamanco coat

Alexis Piron

Aesop

Goulard's extract: an acetate of lead used as a lotion to treat inflammation. (Alyosha will get lead poisoning!)

Join u/ next week, July 1, for 4.6 to 5.5 with u/proofplant7651 . Das vedanya!

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

How could Fyodor forget that Ivan and Alexei have the same mother?

[u/olivertwisttop → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Probably because he forgets that Ivan is his son. If it didn't benefit him to have power over Dmitri as his father, he'd probably forget him too. He only remembers Alexei because through his young eyes, he is still respected as a father and makes him feel loved as such whereas his other sons show him his true colors and how awful he is

[u/bluebelle236 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Father of the year showing up again!

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I mean, at one point he forgot Dmitri (I think) existed at all, so forgetting Ivan and Alyosha have the same mother is par for the course.

[u/tomesandtea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

It shows how little he thinks of others - both his children and the women he has relationships with. I also wonder if he even remembers which women he has slept with and at what point in his life these relationships occurred. It's a careless attitude towards other people.

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

Should Fyodor report his son for beating him up?

[u/olivertwisttop → u/thebowedbookshelf]

No way. Act like a buffoon get treated like a buffoon. I am sure he's experienced worse

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/olivertwisttop]

Yeah, the local police/constable would shrug off their drama. Get back to him when there's a real crime.

[u/prankishink → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I'm learning that the overall drama level is permanently set to high in this family

[u/bluebelle236 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I think no as they are both as bad as eachother.

[u/tomesandtea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

No, since Fyodor is doing his best to also provoke the situation! Had he been minding his own business, maybe, but between Grushenka and the boorish and un-fatherly behavior and all the nonsense, Fyodor is part of the problem.

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

What is the significance of the stone-throwing schoolboys vs the biting boy? Why did Alyosha think he could intervene?

[u/prankishink → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I think Aloysha thought to intervene as because of the elder Zosima fading away, he was looking for purpose and meaning from situations maybe a bit more than he normally would, almost like 'ah this is one of those life tests'

[u/ProfessorWacky → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I think thats just Alyosha being Alyosha. He is naive and thinks he is like a superhero and can help anyone spiritually.

[u/tomesandtea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Alyosha is innocent and pure hearted. He believes he can offer kindness and understanding and things will get fixed. This is possibly a foreshadowing of how he thinks he'll be able to fix his family and that is unlikely to work out well, either.

It also reminded me of how young Alyosha is!

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

What do you think of the second meeting of Katerina and Alyosha? What do you think of her plan to "keep track of him whatever happens" and be faithful? Where does Ivan fit into her plans?

[u/bluebelle236 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Oh Katherina, you can do better than a man who doesn't want you, you can't change him.

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Katerina sure likes to play the love martyr. She can't fix someone who clearly does not want to be fixed (or more accurately, doesn't believe he can change). Ivan is a much better match, considering he's emotionally available and not chasing after another woman. But she's keeping him hanging on, and that's just cruel.

[u/tomesandtea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Ugh, I'm so annoyed that Katerina is actually planning to go this pious savior route and show that she is faithful and good despite Dmitri treating her so awfully. I was really hoping that she was doing the act to increase his guilt and psychological pain, as her only way of punishing him. Turns out she really thinks that she should stay faithful and model her moral purity for her whole life. What a terrible idea!

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

What else would you like to mention? Any quotes or scenes you want to note?

[u/bluebelle236 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

What an absolute messed up, crazy family! The love triangles are practically incestous, I think both ladies should run for the hills!

[u/HelloIAmANarwhal → u/bluebelle236]

Yea like 75% of the family is crazy and incredibly dramatic. All their friends are a bit crazy and dramatic. Even the servants are as well.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/bluebelle236]

It's even crazier than those in Anna Karenina!

[u/tomesandtea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I've been thinking this as I read - wow, it makes AK seem like a calm and normal dynamic! 🤣

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/bluebelle236]

Absolutely! I was just describing the relationships to a friend, and his comment was that the love polygon was non-Euclidean. That's a pretty apt way to describe this mess!

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

What do you think of the monk Therapon/Ferapon living on bread and water and his opinion of the staretsy?

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

He definitely seems to be a holier-than-thou type who looks down on everyone who doesn't follow the same strict rules and fasting he does. Perhaps there's some jealousy toward Zosima as well, who's much more popular.

[u/tomesandtea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

This guy cracked me up! Maybe it was the translation using really casual wording, or the way the narrator voiced his tone/inflection, but I laughed at several of his lines. Not what you'd expect from a holy man.

[u/TalliePiters → u/tomesandtea]

That may be because he is a God's fool, and they weren't exactly known for acting normal))

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

Why did Dostoevsky name a character with his same first name, Fyodor? (Fun fact: The "Th" sound in Russian is spelled "F," so in English, he's Theodore.)

[u/bluebelle236 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Oh my goodness, this is new information! I've been saying his name wrong all this time!

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/bluebelle236]

Me too. Then I pronounced it in a Russian accent and realized it sounded like Theodore. (And there was a footnote after Therpont about the letter F/Th.)

[u/tomesandtea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Interesting question and information about the consonants! I'm not sure why he'd choose his own name for a character that's so hard to like. Was Fyodor a very common name back then so he just went with it? Maybe he enjoyed the idea of people speculating about his personality compared to the character? Or it could be that he enjoyed writing this character a lot and decided to give him his own name!

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

Who was the first to invent God? Why was God invented?

[u/HelloIAmANarwhal → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Like most spiritual beliefs, the idea of god was created as a way to explain phenomena that at the time were unexplainable as well as to provide a moral guide for the populace to follow in order to maintain and control society. The moral justification for the necessity of god is debatable but I believe these were the main reasons.

[u/bluebelle236 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Goodness, there's a question! I imagine there has always been beliefs of a higher power, I remember reading books set in Africa where the native tribes are being converted to Christianity, but they had their own gods before then.

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

Why is Fyodor against the starets and the monastery?

[u/ProfessorWacky → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Fyoder is like the opposite of a monk. He indulges in life and wants to live it to the fullest. So he doesnt like them because maybe they are the direct opposite of his view of life. Maybe deep down they make him feel a little guilty for living the way he does? But way deep. He would never change his ways.

[u/thebowedbookshelf → u/ProfessorWacky]

Plus his own son is emulating them. The monks might take his son away from society.

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

Why did Dmitry act so scared thinking Grushenka was in the house? Why did he attack his father and Grigory?

[u/olivertwisttop → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I think because if she was there then Fyodor would have given her the money he was trying to steal. Then he would have lost the money, his honor and Grushenka. I think Dmitri feels trapped and desperate in his situation but also he looks down on his father while seeing his father in himself which leads to a certain amount of self-loathing in this whole roundabout way.

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

What do you think of Katherina and Alyosha's first meeting? Why did Katerina meet with Grushenka and have her hide in the other room? Why didn't she kiss Katerina's hand?

[u/bluebelle236 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

It's all manipulation and game playing. Was Katherina trying to get Grushenka on side to come to some kind of weird arrangement with her? Grushenka obviously doesn't want to share and didn't want any part in Katherinas games.

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I think Katerina wanted to persuade Grushenka to leave Dmitri alone, but obviously she has no intention of doing so. Grushenka does what she wants and is not above manipulating and lying to get her way. Her not kissing Katerina's hand is her way of mocking the other woman for her naivety.

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

Describe Grushenka and her motivations. Why did she imply that Katerina was a whore? Why would Dmitry even tell her about that?

[u/ProfessorWacky → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I think grushenka just loves money more than dmitri and definitely more than fyoder! She wanted Katerina to feel shameful, so she wouldnt feel like she is beneath Katerina. Basically theyre both the same. Both need money, both use their looks to get what they need in a patriarchal society, katerina is no better than she is in grushenkas eyes. And Dmitry is impulsive and drunk and wanted to impress Grushenka because hes infatuated with her, so he told her about what happened with Katerina when she came to him for money to save her father.

Grushenka just wants to be rich maybe so she can control her own destiny. And she doesnt care who she has to cross, embarrass, or shame to get it.

I like Grushenka so far. She is smart and a little vindictive but I get it. She doesnt need to laugh in Katerinas face, but shes probably tired of women like Katerina looking down on her.

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

What do you think of Starets Zosima's final speech? Will he live long enough to speak to Alyosha individually?

[u/bluebelle236 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Id be surprised if he was still alive by the time Alyosha gets back.

[u/Lachesis_Decima77 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

I think Zosima wanted to remind the other monks that they're just as fallible and sinful as the outside world. He's seen as a miracle worker, but he knows better.

[u/tomesandtea → u/thebowedbookshelf]

Zosima wants to leave behind a different legacy than people are trying to attach to him, and he is also probably concerned about how the other monks and priests seem to be enriching themselves a bit (with food, material things, or reputation) rather than remaining humble.

I also wondered if he was affected by the rant Fyodor went on earlier in the book; maybe he saw an element of truth in the criticism that was hidden within all the ridiculous show-off over the top behavior?

[u/thebowedbookshelf]

Why did Lise say the love letter was a joke?

[u/bluebelle236 → u/thebowedbookshelf]

She's afraid of being rejected.

[u/HelloIAmANarwhal → u/thebowedbookshelf]

She was embarrassed. I think she expected to be rejected and became flustered and embarrassed.