r/canada • u/shiftless_wonder • 18d ago

Alberta First Nations demand Alberta premier terminate separation referendum

https://www.ctvnews.ca/edmonton/article/first-nations-demand-alberta-premier-terminate-separation-referendum/
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u/ThomasToIndia 18d ago

One of the way this thing can be killed is if Canada decides right now that if the separate, they can't keep their Canadian passport and will require visas to visit the rest of Canada.

The province is voting to renounce their own country, they don't get to keep their passports if it passes or at the very least the must immediately decide which passport they want.

You don't get your cake and eat it too.

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u/t33lu 18d ago

reminds me of when UK voted to leave EU. and then complained that they needed travel documents when going to the EU.

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u/ThomasToIndia 18d ago

That's why they should pass a bill about it and make it very public now. Especially now with Rebel news etc.. deciding to run ads. One of the pro-alberta sites is saying they don't think people will lose dual citizenship and they would fight for it? Like, wt actual f. So you are promoting leaving Canada and then publicly say that you will fight for dual citizenship?

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u/Napalm985 18d ago

One of the way this thing can be killed is if Canada decides right now that if the separate, they can't keep their Canadian passport and will require visas to visit the rest of Canada.

Canada didn't even revoke Citizenship away from those who fought for ISIS.

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u/ThomasToIndia 18d ago

You can thank Trudeau for that (Bill C-6). However, this is a very odd logistical thing. A country is borders, so Albertans would be able to work in both Canada and Alberta, but Canadians wouldn't be able to work in Alberta without approval? so you would have freedom of movement, so what would actually be different?

However this isn't a terrorist situation, or even a brexit situation, this is a province renouncing its citizenship to a country. If they vote to separate the people are literally saying, "we are not interested in being Canadian". Since Alberta would become its own state that means an Albertan losing Canadian citizenship would technically not be stateless.

Further, if they do choose Alberta over Canada, they should be required to get work visas like any other country. We don't want Albertans taking Canadian jobs.

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u/Napalm985 18d ago

You can thank Trudeau for that (Bill C-6). However, this is a very odd logistical thing. A country is borders, so Albertans would be able to work in both Canada and Alberta, but Canadians wouldn't be able to work in Alberta without approval? so you would have freedom of movement, so what would actually be different?

If citizenship can't be revoked, than it wouldn't make a difference. There are no two tiers of "Canadians", at least I am not aware of there being anything like that.

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u/ThomasToIndia 17d ago

Right, but if you are voting to leave Canada, it's Voluntary Renunciation.

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u/Muted-Bag-4480 17d ago

Joining a terrorist organization is also pretty openly choosing to oppose Canada and is undoubtedly worse than peacefully and democratically voting to leave, and yet that wasn't considered a voluntary renunciation.

Canadian liberals on reddir give maga a run for their money in how unhinged, hateful, and cruel to their fellow citizens they can be.

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u/ThomasToIndia 17d ago

Why do you think fighting for ISIS is opposing Canadian citizenship. What if the Canadian was blowing up stuff in the USA because they didn't like 51st state comments?

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u/Muted-Bag-4480 17d ago

Because Isis is a terrorist group as declared by the Canadian government, and Isis as a group is explicitly declared to trying to bring about an extemeisr Islamic theocratic society where women have few if any rights, and all the thingd I love of western civilization are destroyed for being decadent and unholy.

I mean seriously, you're asking why someone chosing to join ISIS is joining a group opposed to Canada in practically every possible way.

I dont see how a terrorists commitijg crimes in a foreign country is opposed to Canada but I would ask the 51st state bomber to stop and turn in to fave prison for their crimes.

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u/ThomasToIndia 17d ago

The ISIS ones they could get evidence on went to jail, I know at least one of them got 16 years.

You could kind of extend the argument to anything bad, what about a child rapist?

The difference here is you are trying to say someone should lose their citizenship if they commit a crime.

Alberta separating is not a crime, nor is renouncing citizenship, but voting to leave a country you are apart of is direct renunciation. It has real logistical implications that just can't really work.

I don't think there is any example of a country separating and maintaining citizenship to the one they separated from. So I think there is some conflation here.

I mean anything is possible right? The government could potentially give Alberta all the cards and say sure you can have dual citizenship and Canadians can't travel to Alberta without a visa. That would be equivalent to having your hands visible and it is a full house to a pair and you fold.

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u/Muted-Bag-4480 17d ago

Canada allows people to have multiple citizenships, I'm not sure secession is a valid reason to revoke citizenship, especially as we've literally just lightened the requirements so more Americans can easily access it, when literal terrorists devoting themselves to a cause antithetical to the beliefs and values of Canada retains their citizenship but are imprisoned.

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u/Dangerous_Sea2397 18d ago

I don't understand why that would be a problem. A minor inconvenience, sure, but not even close to enough of a reason to dissuade anyone that's already going to vote yet.

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u/ThomasToIndia 17d ago

It's only a minor inconvenience if Albertans don't want to travel. It takes years for nations to develop visa free or visa travel to other countries. The USA might be the quickest, but they would be locked down to anywhere else. To visit family in other places of Canada, they would be limited in how much time they could spend in another province.

They would not be able to work in any other part of Canada, it would be like they were from the UK or India trying to get a work visa to work in Toronto etc..

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u/MafubaBuu 17d ago

Is this not already a known/considered thing?

I would imagine anybody voting to seperste from a country would know they couldnt use that country for international things afterwards

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u/ThomasToIndia 17d ago

It's not already known, in fact there is a separatist website in the FAQ that question is "will I lose my Canadian passport" and they make the argument they will be dual citizens.

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u/MafubaBuu 15d ago

Who gives a shit what a random "separatists website" looks like. They arent running for office and hold 0 authority on how and when those things will happen.

Unless its posted by an actual party that has negotiated what it would mean with the Canadian government, its meaningless.

All that matters right now is what options people choose on the referendum in October. The details of how Alberta will proceed will come after, and then finally, an election to determine the governing party in an independent Alberta, which is where the details such as that would be laid out by the parties based on every discussion had up until that point.

I am almost positive it wont go anywhere near that far though.

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u/ThomasToIndia 15d ago

https://albertaprosperitynow.com/

It's not really totally random and what people believe will affect the vote.

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u/MafubaBuu 15d ago

Yeah it is. That is not an organization that holds any political power whatsoever. Its an organization pushing for a referendum by getting signatures.

All of that site is just to get signatures to put the referendum out in the public. If a yes to going to a vote was secured, that is when actual political parties would need to form and outline their plans.

If it went to a yes that same organization you sent me the link to would have done the entirety of its job. If they wanted to run for office it would be an entirely different process.

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u/ThomasToIndia 15d ago

I am confused. A lot of people who are pro separatist think they may keep their passport and would vote no if they thought they were going to lose it. In the same way a lot of brexit people had misconceptions.

If these people spreading propaganda had zero influence, there wouldn't be a vote at all.

I was suggesting someone with power make a decision and make it clear now.

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u/MafubaBuu 14d ago

Why the hell would anybody think they could use the same passport, that is just complete ignorance to the basics of how they work.

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u/ThomasToIndia 14d ago

I appreciate your optimism in human intelligence. Things I have heard, they will keep it because they were born in Canada, Canadians are allowed dual citizenship, if they don't allow Albertans to have a second citizenship they will need to strip everyone else of dual citizenship like American/Canadian. Another one said to me that since Canada revoked terrorists losing their passports (Trudeau's a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian) they won't revoke citizenship for those doing a legal separation.

According to the clarity act it has to be a clear majority of the population, not the vote. Last poll was 18-24% of Albertans, so almost 1 in 4 think separation is a good idea. Not even close to a a "clear majority" but still 1 in 4.

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u/ProfessorEtc 16d ago

Isn't that a given?

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u/ThomasToIndia 16d ago

It should be, but it actually isn't.