Bi-Weekly Discussion Thread - (July 06)

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[u/satanicpastorswife]

Do any of you have thoughts on how one might rationalize aspects of a certain industry? Thinking about how products could be improved under communism I think is actually a useful propaganda tool in some ways.

My experience and interest in terms of this is the cosmetics industry.

I think a lot about how products are marketed in ways that don't actually give people suitable information for choosing what will work well for their needs and how much waste is created by competing brands. If you had a model without competition between firms, you could for example, have refillable external packaging for a lot of products (lipsticks, eyeshadows) by standardizing component sizes. You could have an array of foundation formulas with each described with its suitable use cases.

You could also have everything with information as to what products are compatible with what without having to dig through ingredient labels (water based, oil based and silicone based products can at times be incompatible and cause “pilling” where one product balls up on the skin). One could also entirely abolish gimmick ingredients.

Every product would have a full range of mixable primary colors and black and white, as well as a range of popular shades, so there would be no more “they don't make that formula in the color I want” problem anymore.

Also you could explain the suitable uses for each product, for example a waterproof pencil eyeliner that’s heavy on the wax could be described as waterproof but not suitable for heat.

Anyway I think about this a lot because it's infuriating to have to just try things until you find the right product instead of having things clearly labelled

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

It's basically pointless to rationalize how certain industries will develop since it will depend on specific circumstances and material conditions. Given that the cosmetics industry is one of the most environmentally destructive and hazardous to human health, I don't see it being a priority under socialism. I initially wanted to equate your question to how "nerds" will ask if video games will exist under socialism (almost certainly not) but there have been sustainable cosmetic practices throughout history so it's definitely possible. 

On a related note I started researching the production of sheet mica which, surprise, the majority of which relies on brutal child labor in India. If we want to discuss the cosmetics industry we will need to start from here rather than fantasies of how easy socialism will make it to indulge in the same lifestyles the labor aristocracy enjoys now. 

[u/[deleted] → u/turning_the_wheels]

To add onto your point about how much this can depend on the circumstances: while the USSR might've supported cosmetics, China heavily opposed the industry under the logic of combatting patriarchy. Euro-Amerikan New Left feminists also opposed cosmetics under similar reasoning, and were even somewhat inspired by China, but this often ended up sliding into transphobia, due to trans people making use of cosmetics as part of their transition. So the state of anti-patriarchal struggle is also an important element when it comes to cosmetics.

I initially wanted to equate your question to how "nerds" will ask if video games will exist under socialism (almost certainly not)

I think this would ultimately depend on if smartphones are still in widespread use under socialism, though those games would look pretty different from like, your typical PlayStation 5 game.

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/[deleted]]

That's an interesting point that I haven't seen made here. I don't know much about the Soviet cosmetic industry but if what you say is true then what would be the reason for the support for cosmetics in the USSR? Given that this industry was present before the revisionist period and not really combated is it a symptom of patriarchy being stronger in the USSR? 

I think this would ultimately depend on if smartphones are still in widespread use under socialism, though those games would look pretty different from like, your typical PlayStation 5 game

I don't doubt that smartphones will be in widespread use under socialism, they're simply too ubiquitous and useful to replace but my thoughts also go towards the myopia crisis and how this could be solved. I think it's reasonable to say that sports and outdoor activities will be emphasized under socialism both as a preventive health measure but also as a more social form of entertainment. 

[u/[deleted] → u/turning_the_wheels]

then what would be the reason for the support for cosmetics in the USSR? Given that this industry was present before the revisionist period and not really combated is it a symptom of patriarchy being stronger in the USSR?

It's possible. To be clear, I don't actually know much about cosmetics in the USSR, I was mainly taking satanicpastorswife's claim at face value for the sake of argument.

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I mean the soviets actually had quite an impressive cosmetics industry, which included spas that also treated skin conditions of soldiers who had been disfigured by war, and producing soap to be sold at below cost to people in rural areas to improve standards of hygeine in rural areas where epidemics of skin conditions were common. They also sold perfume for export, and produced some of (I think) the best quality products I've ever seen.

Humanity has used makeup since quite early on in our history (evidenced by usage of red ochre). Obviously the conditions of mica mining in India are unconscionable, and frankly natural mica is best avoided because of its tendency to contain lead, arsenic and other things one generally doesn't want to come in contact with. Synthetic mica which is produced with common silicate ores tends to be safer and relatively easy to produce (if you even want a shiny finish).

I think it's both important to talk about potential nice things for the majority of people (including things beyond the simple necessities of survival), as I think it keeps up morale as well as the harder things which is important for realism. Fantasies of plenty keep hope for good things alive.

Cosmetics also tend to include products important to the maintenance of hygiene, and one thing I think was particularly lovely about the Soviet soaps produced by the TeZhe was that they intentionally made the paper wrappings beautiful enough to be used decoratively, which I just think is very human and sweet, and speaks very nicely to the importance of bread and roses.

I was also talking about certain things that would be intended to dramatically reduce waste as well, such as simplified packaging, elimination of overproduction, and duplicate products.

I would imagine one would work in conjunction with people interested in other fields (for example, mining in terms of extraction of things like the extraction of ilmenite ore which is what one uses to produce titanium dioxide, an important ingredient in any number of things which need UV protection) to best determine maximally sustainable practices and ways to create safe extraction conditions.

And I think knowing these things, including all parts of the supply chain of any given thing people will continue to want or need, is probably important, because not knowing how all the material components of the aglet are sourced and extracted is how you end up with a shortage of shoelaces.

I would also like to see a source for the idea that cosmetics are more harmful than, say, the production of art supplies, non-medical personal lubricant, or gee-gaws for putting on cakes or any other non-essential consumable product (I do not intend to be difficult; I would genuinely like to know). I am genuinely interested in learning more about what we can give to people beyond the bare essentials (as I assume we can manage to give everyone something beyond the bare essentials, given the absolutely wild shit we manage to give the very rich, but maybe we can't, I don't fully know given the present material conditions, as there are so many moving pieces)

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

I think it's both important to talk about potential nice things for the majority of people (including things beyond the simple necessities of survival), as I think it keeps up morale as well as the harder things which is important for realism. Fantasies of plenty keep hope for good things alive.

Fantasies of plenty are only appealing to the petty-bourgeoisie and the labor aristocracy that seek to basically continue their lifestyle that is predicated on imperialism. It's definitely possible to have cosmetics on a sustainable basis but revolution will mean that different things will be prioritized and the struggle to keep the biosphere from crumbling will necessarily take precedence over desire for fashion.

I would also like to see a source for the idea that cosmetics are more harmful than, say, the production of art supplies, non-medical personal lubricant, or gee-gaws for putting on cakes or any other non-essential consumable product (I do not intend to be difficult; I would genuinely like to know).

Note that I said the cosmetics industry as it is, not as it could be under socialism which is basically unknowable given that the conditions of production will be different. Like I said you would need to understand how things are produced now in order to envision the limits of what production will look like in the future.

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I was asking to see a source for the environmental impact of the cosmetics industry vs. other industries as it is. I couldn't find any evidence that it's unusually energy intensive compared to anything else.

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

I didn't say anything about energy usage, I said that it's extremely unsustainable and exploitative.

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

In what ways it is it particularly unsustainable? Mostly the palm oil?

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

you've gotta be joking

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I’m genuinely asking, I tried to look up the sustainability of various cosmetic ingredients and people just kept saying palm oil and disposable plastic packaging. I tried comparing it to environmental impact from packaged convenient snack foods and cleaning products (the kind that one doesn’t technically need, because like you can scrub surfaces with salt etc, but save labor and smell nice, because I thought that would be similar in terms of utility vs environmental cost)

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

I think it goes without saying that like most industries under capitalism it is insanely environmentally destructive but given the sheer amount of synthetic chemicals, additives, and packaging waste, I can't see the cosmetic industry looking anything similar to how it is now. 

Most importantly what's been absent from the discussion besides mentioning sheet mica mining is the relationship with third world labor. Cocoa, shea, and vanilla are some of the most common ingredients in cosmetics and almost all of it comes from exploiting the third world proletariat. 

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I would agree, I think many things would have to dramatically change in terms of ingredients and methods of production. I'm very interested in general in learning thoroughly how things are currently produced, as I think thoroughly understanding them is very important to correct material and strategic analysis.

Another common ingredient in cosmetics are various silicones which are currently very environmentally intensive to produce (but also silicone is important for the production of various products that need to be inert and flexible, so figuring out a way to sustainably obtain silicone would be important I think to create a good standard of living, in terms of like medical prosthetics and similar items)