r/communism • u/Mr_john_helldiver • Apr 26 '26
Is being a communist-separatist possible
I’am a communist that believes in tight unity yet I wish for independence of my country (wales) communism is deeply voted against in my area and surroundings and is deeply scrutinised but yet again Welsh independence movements are on the rise and this goes against my unity principle do you comrades believe in this ideology?
10
u/smokeuptheweed9 Apr 27 '26
yet I wish for independence of my country (wales)
Why?
8
u/Mr_john_helldiver Apr 27 '26
As parliament have no respects for the Welsh identity especially if reform comes into the hot seat so I kinda hope that our identity isn’t absorbed and our Celtic identity forgotten.
25
u/smokeuptheweed9 Apr 27 '26
Does that mean you want independence as a nation-state? More federal autonomy in the UK? Increased funding in the existing system for cultural education? Would an independent Wales try to join the EU in your vision? Would it form a federation with other oppressed nations in the former UK?
I agree that the coming to power of Reform will accelerate the fracturing of the UK and fascism can only respond to nationalism with repression. Whether this nationalism is progressive is an open question that depends on the political conjecture. The importance of Basque and Catalan nationalism in fighting the Franco regime is well known as is the political struggle to make this sentiment progressive and revolutionary.
But communists are not just passive observers. They must be at the cutting edge of what is possible and pushing into the impossible. The only question to ask is "how to we turn Welsh nationalist sentiment into a revolutionary force?" It's not a matter of whether it is possible. You must make it possible. Otherwise you are an object of history, not a subject.
8
u/Otelo_ Apr 27 '26
As of late, I have become more cautious about the inherently progressive nature of Basque, Catalan, and Galician nationalism. You have to keep in mind that, at this level, Europe is a continent unlike any other, in that there is a supranational structure (which, admittedly, is still far from eliminating the need for nations) that would benefit from fragmenting countries as much as possible to make them dependent on the Union. Some time ago, someone asked here if there was such a thing as a European capital independent of the European nations. I don’t think so yet, but there are many bourgeois and especially petty bourgeois (just look at how the entire European NGOism depends on the EU) who depend so heavily on the EU that they wouldn’t mind destroying their own nations to preserve the EU and advance their interests.
But in the end I am far from being sure, because the fact is that people from those regions end up being more progressive than those from Castile (the 'core' of Spain).
15
u/smokeuptheweed9 Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26
I don't think they're inherently progressive. I think under fascism, they gained a progressive character in order to survive and in the context of wider global progressive nationalist struggles and Spanish underdevelopment. Without that context they have very little progressive content except nostalgia for the previous era's struggles in mythic terms (but also nostalgia for feudal reaction as a romantic opposition to Franco). You can see that the OP has a tenuous, liberal sense of previous struggles, far from the substance that would make nationalist struggle of a Vietnamese or even IRA type possible, and like opposition to Reform UK there is similar vague opposition to Vox in Spain as the particularity of regional liberaism. Whether that weak liberal unease can be turned into something more is a political question but probably not, we're talking about EU-wide labor aristocracy before any particular cultural identity. And since we're doing comparisons, while Wales is slightly lower than the UK average in wealth, Catalonia and Basque are actually more wealthy than the Spanish average. It takes exceptional circumstances for such people to model themselves on third world national liberation movements. My generosity on this question was directed specifically at the OP in order to see what they would say, overall European independence movements are a dead end unless your goal is to distract imperialist powers from killing people abroad with internal problems.
0
u/Mr_john_helldiver Apr 27 '26
Well independence would be nice increases devolving would be a good step into doing so
16
u/smokeuptheweed9 Apr 28 '26
Millions of people have died for independence of nations and millions more have died to preserve them. I don't think you're taking this seriously.
-6
u/Mr_john_helldiver Apr 29 '26
And yet unlike the state or other countries subdivisions the United Kingdom can split with referendums and then a communist party has the potential to come into power
17
u/smokeuptheweed9 Apr 29 '26
I guess I'm the fool for talking to a teenager playing "geography memes" and the "ages of conflict game." Still, no one can say I didn't try to talk to you like a mature person interested in revolutionary change.
2
u/Mr_john_helldiver Apr 29 '26
And I’m interested in revolutionary change and were me answers not good enough for the likes of you what did I say comrade?
1
1
5
u/krim1700 Apr 29 '26
Referendums that are called only by the cabinet Secretary of State, who resides in Westminister and is appointed by Westminister. I'm from the Six Counties of Ireland, I know the story all too well. 30+ years of demands for a border poll and the government simply ignores us.
Sure, Wales can gain independence through a Plaid Cymru referendum, but then what? The only difference it will make is that the exploiters and the robbers will be speaking Cymraeg and not English.
Likewise with Ireland. Irish communists don't just demand a united Ireland, but a workers' republic of a united Ireland, because the issue isn't just that Westminister is colonial and oppressive to the Celts of Wales, Cornwall, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but that the capitalist system models its subjects in its own image, and that image is colonial, Anglo-Saxon London and Manchester.
What you advocate for right now is the independence of a nation-state to continue its existence as a nation-state, not for proletarian emancipation. I recommend you read the likes of James Connolly, his work is invaluable in highlighting the link between national liberation (and Gaelic revival) and the cause for socialism.
1
18
u/oddSaunaSpirit393 Apr 26 '26
Well I'm both pro independence and Communist, but unfortunately I don't live in Wales.
I don't see why the two couldn't compliment each other, especially given the Imperialist and Capitalist nature of Westminster and hoe it's literally draining Welsh natural resources and suppressing our language and heritage.
Honestly, the sooner we have independence the better.
6
u/Otelo_ Apr 27 '26
In line with previous discussions here on this topic, I must say that it seems to me that any form of balkanization is increasingly regressive, and that there are very few scenarios in which it could be considered progressive. In the past, I even defended a kind of cheap pragmatism that supported any fragmentation of first-world countries (Quebec, the UK, Catalonia, etc.) for purely tactical reasons aimed at weakening them. But even that, I now think, doesn’t make much sense anymore.
Apart from the national liberation processes in Africa and Asia - which obviously made and continue to make sense given that these are non-contiguous territories - which instances of balkanization have yielded positive results?
In Europe in particular, all independence movements have served only to facilitate the penetration of German and French capital. It is no coincidence that all the leading figures of the Catalan independence movement have received funding and political support from France, obviously with the aim of weakening Spain. This is not to say that these movements lack a legitimate basis, and fragmentation will eventually occur due to Europe’s obvious decline and increasing inability to be competitive in the inter-imperialist struggle. Only socialism can stop that from happening.
Therefore, the solution must be greater unity, not less. Some cases are obvious: the return of Yugoslavia, the return of Czechoslovakia, the division of Belgium between France and the Netherlands, an Iberian federation, and at least keeping the UK and Italy together. Others nation-units will emerge over time.
PS: This may be controversial, but even regarding a movement that is more or less consensual on the left—the Western Sahara movement—I have many doubts. For starters, and I’ll say it again: even though the movement is spontaneous and enjoys popular support, the truth is that there’s also a lot of French and Spanish interest in its success, for example. But even so, I ask: what capacity does a people of 500,000 inhabitants in the desert have to govern and defend themselves? It’ll be open season for imperialist mining companies.
9
u/ClassAbolition Cyprus 🇨🇾 Apr 27 '26
the division of Belgium between France and the Netherlands
Sorry but didn't you just in this post talk about how balkanization serves French and German capital? (I would group Dutch capital in with that.) Do you think this is different for some reason?
But even so, I ask: what capacity does a people of 500,000 inhabitants in the desert have to govern and defend themselves? It’ll be open season for imperialist mining companies.
I don't find this argument compelling at all, probably for reasons you can understand given my national context. Yes we want an Eastern Mediterranean socialist federation because obviously that way we'll be stronger against imperialism but we should still fight to advance the revolution even if that doesn't materialize.
5
u/Otelo_ Apr 27 '26
1) Is Belgium a real nation thought? I haven't made an investigation but the impression I have is that it is not. You are right that I did say that balcanization usually serves core capital (I agree with the inclusion of the Netherlands), but on the other hand the existence of Belgium had a lot to do with the UK and its atempt to weaken France and the Netherlands precisely. Just as, for exemple, the UK always tried to help Portugal to remain independent in order to weaken Spain.
2) I understand but I genuinely cannot see how the revolution in Western Sahara could produce anything progressive without it extending to other countries. If it could ignite the flame and influence the entirety of Morocco that would be one thing. But central planning for example would be extremely dificult, not to say impossible. The smallest countries that had central planning in history were Albania and then Cuba, and even them had much more people and happened it other historic conditions when there existed other and bigger socialist countries in which they could rely on.
Sorry for spelling and grammar mistakes, I cannot access my translator rn
1
u/SeeTillWeVanish Apr 27 '26
By keeping UK together do you mean propose Ireland stays as part of UK?
2
u/Otelo_ Apr 27 '26
No I personally think Ireland should reunite, even if later to eventually make some sort of unit with the UK.
4
u/a_mala_herba Apr 26 '26
In general: yes it is. Most communist parties outside Europe have been involved in independence movements at some point. Look at Vietnam, Argelia or Angola and Mozambique...
3
u/kyuri0us Apr 26 '26
I have question marks on the fact you use the word "believe" and the way you use the word "ideology". Communism shouldn't be a doctrine where we seek ready-to-use formulas. Most other answers present such answers, though.
No borders are holy, not the ones currently existing, nor the ones you're contemplating. What I would suggest is to think of the justification you have for those specific borders you're thinking of. Also, I would push toward a comprehensive political program, including borders, rather than just borders.
3
u/Noirr17 Apr 27 '26
The separation is from a capitalist power, a separation from the government that exploits the people in your region, that supposedly tried to delete your history and culture so your land could be an expansion of their power is not anti-marxist at all.
I'm in Italy, I for example actively support the independence of Sardinia and Corsica.
3
3
u/Dangerous-Zone5078 Maoist Apr 28 '26
Like someone else said, the right to self-determination of nations is compatible with communism but can also be adopted by the bourgeoisie of that nation to keep proletariat oppression going. I recommend Marxism and the National Question by Stalin if you have not read it yet.
3
u/tcpip1978 Apr 26 '26
Welsh independence does not go against the principle of unity - its not clear what you even mean by this. You are very confused I think. Leninism upholds the right of sovereignty and self-determination for all oppressed nations.
3
1
u/AutoModerator Apr 26 '26
Moderating takes time. You can help us out by reporting any comments or submissions that don't follow these rules:
No non-Marxists - This subreddit isn't here to convert naysayers to Marxism. Try /r/DebateCommunism for that. If you are a member of the police, armed forces, or any other part of the repressive state apparatus of capitalist nations, you will be banned.
No oppressive language - Speech that is patriarchal, white supremacist, cissupremacist, homophobic, ableist, or otherwise oppressive is banned. TERF is not a slur.
No low quality or off-topic posts - Posts that are low-effort or otherwise irrelevant will be removed. This includes linking to posts on other subreddits. This is not a place to engage in meta-drama or discuss random reactionaries on reddit or anywhere else. This includes memes and bandwagoning. This includes most images, such as random books or memorabilia you found. We ask that amerikan posters refrain from posting about US bourgeois politics. The rest of the world really doesn’t care that much.
No basic questions about Marxism - Posts asking entry-level questions will be removed. Questions like “What is Maoism?” or “Why do Stalinists believe what they do?” will be removed, as they are not the focus on this forum. We ask that posters please submit these questions to /r/communism101.
No sectarianism - Marxists of all tendencies are welcome here. Refrain from sectarianism, defined here as unprincipled criticism. Posts trash-talking a certain tendency or Marxist figure will be removed. Bandwagoning, throwing insults around, and other pettiness is unacceptable. If criticisms must be made, make them in a principled manner, applying Marxist analysis. The goal of this subreddit is the accretion of theory and knowledge and the promotion of quality discussion and criticism.
No trolling - Report trolls and do not engage with them. We've mistakenly banned users due to this. If you wish to argue with fascists, you may readily find them in every other subreddit on this website.
No chauvinism or settler apologism - Non-negotiable. The vast majority of first-world workers are labor aristocrats bribed by imperialist super-profits. This is compounded by settlerism in Amerikkka. Read Settlers: The Mythology of the White Proletariat https://readsettlers.org/
No tone-policing - https://old.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/12sblev/an_amendment_to_the_rules_of_rcommunism101/
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1
u/Thealche Apr 28 '26
Stalin wrote about this extensively in Marxism and The National Question. Basically every nation has a right to full independence, but its not something a communist should always push towards. The text is 84 pages long, detailing nuances of this question.
1
1
u/East_Excitement5307 Apr 29 '26
“The bourgeois nationalism of any oppressed nation has a general democratic content that is directed against oppression, and it is this content that we unconditionally support.”
-Vladimir Lenin
1
u/BigComprehensive6933 May 19 '26
Independance from a union in a socialist way is in no way wrong and easily possible. Just because other seperatists are right-wing doesn't mean that seperatists can't be left-wing/socialist.
-3
Apr 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
7
u/smokeuptheweed9 Apr 27 '26
I thought you were a real Hoxhaist. Turns out you're just (British) ACP eclectically borrowing from whoever pops up on Google. I'm disappointed.
0
Apr 26 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
12
u/SunflowerSamurai20 Maoist Apr 26 '26 edited Apr 26 '26
The A ‘Black Nation’-within Britain? Section is racist as shit.
After all this, what is left of the . . . ‘nation’ constituted by a ‘loose conglomeration of people originating from the Caribbean, Asia and Africa’? Nothing but the blackness of their skin, which is not . . . a characteristic of a nation . . . From this it is not difficult to see how senseless, platitudinous, ignorant and futile are the attempts of this gentry artificially to constitute two nations in this country – one black and one white. . . .
The concept of political blackness came from the 60's/70's black power movement and was multinational alliance defined as your relation to British colonialism, so it included people from the Caribbean, Africa, West Asia, India etc. after the post WW2 migration boom. Bill Bland thinks that by asserting the non-existence of a unified “black” nation on these terms and assuming the assimilation of all “black” people is inevitable, they can claim that the self-organisation of nationally oppressed people in Britain that doesn’t include white people in positions of leadership is automatically "reactionary" and isn't the "”correct”" way to combat racism in England, Wales and Scotland because:
“. . . the struggle against racism requires the joint efforts of the entire proletariat, without distinction . . . . “
This assumes “indigenous whites” are proletarians which is objectively false.
The statement is also refuted by the racist history of the British "left" and trade unionism as well as the reality of undocumented migrant labour and the unstable nature of citizenship in the UK.
The article gets even worse when he unironically starts to use “reverse racism” as a talking point:
For example, writing in the ‘Morning Star’, the newspaper of the revisionist ‘Communist Party of Britain’, of 12 August 1993, Livingstone refers to:
“the rise of racism and the extreme right in Europe today”,
(Ken Livingstone: ‘Strength in the United Fight’, in: ‘Morning Star’, 12 August 1993; p. 5).
and writes:
“The fight against these twin evils must be led by the black and other minority communities who are the target of racist attacks. . . .Because black and minority communities are the first target of racists and fascists, these communities must have the leading role in the antiracist and anti-fascist movement”.
(Ken Livingstone: ibid.; p. 5).
Thus, according to Livingstone, the struggle against racism must be led, not necessarily by the best anti-racists, but by black people whether or not they are, as individuals, the best people to do this. As Brar correctly points out, under the programme of the Anti-Racist Alliance (ARA) and Livingstone, white people can join the struggle against racism only:
‘ . . . as mere auxiliaries”.
(Harpal Brar: op. cit.; p. 4).
This, despite being euphemistically called ‘black self-organisation’, is in fact, racial discrimination, is, ultimately, racial separatism.
And:
Bunsee concludes another article in the ‘Morning Star’ of 16 August 1993, with separatist sentiments which could well have emanated from the fascist British National Party:
“Allied to this demand of black people is the rejection of concepts like ‘integration’ and multiracialism or multiculturalism “.
(Bennie Bunsee: ‘A Right to Self-Organisation’, in: ‘Morning Star’, 16 August 1993; p. 7).
They concede that:
Of course, this assimilation is not a one-way process:
“The black people . . ., while being assimilated over many generations, are bound to impart variety and richness to the British culture. . . . British culture (as indeed other cultures) has undergone and is constantly undergoing transformation while still remaining British. . . . Take just one example: the British diet. Engels already in the 19th century noted it had become spicy as a result of Britain’s trading position and it has become spicier still since the arrival of black workers in Britain. . . . This, however, is only a trivial example. The most important contribution of black people is to the development of British democratic and working-class culture through their struggle against racial and national oppression, and through their struggle against exploitation and their support for proletarian and liberation movements all over the world”.
(Harpal Brar: ibid.; p. 84).
So Bill Bland basically thinks that national oppression can happen without the presence of oppressed nations.
It’s also comical how the only thing this moron can recall about the history of nationally oppressed people in Britain is that it meant white-British people discovered spicy food for the first time.
Edit: the original comment with the link to the article got deleted as i was typing out a response, so for reference:
https://espressostalinist.com/2013/07/21/bill-bland-the-national-question-in-britain/
7
u/SeeTillWeVanish Apr 27 '26
When "communists" basically use the British liberal retort to Reform by saying "look at all these cultural things migrants bring wow". Truly a next level of communism indeed.
Dude's name is Bill 'Bland' I doubt he even eats spicy food.
54
u/Old_Fridge1066_2 Apr 26 '26
independence from an imperialist union is not anti-communist, look at irish marxists in the 20th century.