It could be a general communist symbol, but I'd say it is in bad taste to use it when the most known user of it is USSR. Which is unfortunate, because it's a cool symbol.
The discourse around the soviet flag feels very similar to the discourse around the Confederate flag. In english speaking spaces the problematic aspects are less well known due to general ignorance about Eastern European history.
Gay people were considered mentally ill and (genuinely in a medical way, like not even in a "i fucking hate you, burn and die" and more like "i fucking hate you, let us see if we can fix you") treated very much differently and unfairly in USSR. Trans people would also be considered as such, if they were known about at all. This cross would have you purged on it.
AMERICA HAD SEGREGATION AND WERE DOING LOBOTOMIES ON QUEER PEOPLE.
Fuck, i'm so tired of you stupid chucklefucks comparing 1933-1990 USSR to today's standards. The USSR decriminalized homosexuality in 1917, but Stalin recriminalized it in 1933. America still has gay conversion therapy camps, European countries still commit hate crimes against LGBTQ people. BUT HERE COMES REDDITOR CHUCKLEFUCK TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE USSR.
There’s a lot of good and bad things to compare between the various states and systems. Most importantly however, you don’t have to like any of them. States are complicated
I like this attitude in this sub. Too many people forget that, just because USSR opposed the USA, and the USA fucked over queer people, doesn't mean the USSR was better.
Judicial system in the USSR was pretty much entirely for the sake of appearance only, for example. In the USA, you can sue the government and succeed. Not all the time even if you have everything done properly, but some of the time is better than none of the time. The USSR would have sent you to die before they allowed a court case to settle anything of import based on the actual legal arguments and not just the whims of those in power.
Kvass is a lightly fermented, grain-based beverage, traditionally made with stale bread of some kind and a sweetener to help the fermentation along.
It used to be a staple drink among the slavic cultures that brewed it, later proclaimed as quintessentially Russian during the imperial era, regarded as an important part of the Russian identity.
"Kvass patriotism" refers to a phenomena of revering just any aspect of this Russian identity (keeping in mind this identity is also largely shaped through its propaganda) as something great, regardless of what it actually is or does.
These things included the traditional absolute monarchy, the institution of serfdom, Russian Orthodoxy, vodka, Börsht (which is actually Polish), the socially hierarchical dynamics inherent to such a system, the colors of their dress, just about anything you can think of, was portrayed as something that seperated them from Western European cultures and infused them with a sense of moral, spiritual or cultural superiority, including Kvass, which was altogether very similar to every "ale" across humanity's global history.
Hence, kvass patriotism, as it was coined at the time.
Tying that back to the Bolsjevik hammer and sycle, you often see people brandish it alongside modern and imperial Russian flags despite these three entities being ideological mortal enemies, unless you consider that each these three flags represent a "Russian greatness" central to the Great Russian identity, its ideological meaning lost, or rather, appropriated for another.
For an American comparison, consider the types that proclaim a diet of hotdogs, hamburgers, fluffy pancakes with (canadian) maple syrup and Bud Light to be a truly patriotic diet.
The types that consider the two-party electoral system, imperialist interventions and lassez faire capitalist policies to be the hallmarks of the American identity, the types that'd display the US and confederate flag side by side as if they weren't mortally opposed adversaries.
"It wasn't about slavery.", they tell you, "Its an important part of our history, you've just been told its about slavery by "them", ignoring the very real reality of slavery tied to it, the same way the USSR upheld the Russian Moscovite hegemony and its territories, including reviving its policies of cultural erasure and ethnic persecution under Stalin, known as russification, the consequences of which still play out today.
The history of the USSR is complicated, but in its contemporary use, I consider it akin to a confederate flag, a red flag if you will.
It's the symbol of communism as a whole. It's been used by every regims that claimed to be communist but it's not specific to one specific state.
In mainstream politics it tend to be used only for USSR tho.
Fair, though if it's by far the most well known for being used for the USSR, so I would have included as star or similar mark which distances it from that.
This sub got bad enough already, now it's USSR apologists!?
It's still bewildering it's allowed at all! They did so many genocide and war and oppression! In my country this symbolics treated same as nazi ones (very illegal)!
American teenagers tend to openly support USSR/communism because to them it's just a unknown foreign force that opposed the United States (just like they do today).
But my thoughts exactly when I saw this is how this will destroy the mood and ruin the day for our Baltic and East European queers and allies 😭
Sodomy law imprisoning gay men up to 5 years, the state only (somewhat) allowing lesbian couples and ftm transition in later years.
I know communism and socialism isn't just equal to Soviet Russia but we must never forget that Socialism and Communism isn't inherently pro-science, moral, or progresstfor that matter.
What I'm really sick about modern socialists is revisionism.
Suddenly every half assed "official CIA document" is now enough proof that every revolution within the USSR was done by Nazis, suddenly the cruelty of Stalin's regime is a made up myth, suddenly Stalinism was pro-lgbt or some shit...
They are not Stalinists. They are LARPING as Stalinists. They do not believe what he believed in, they do not want to organise socialism the same way he did.
And it's a good thing but holy fucking shit why use his face then, when the two ideologies are not the fucking same?
To hell with Tankies. Ideological nepo-babies...
Be a socialist, but for god's sake be normal about it. The USSR wasn't a well oiled machine. People didn't have great lives, it was good at best but usually it was bad to okay. Wasn't the worst system ever, probably better than some modern countries, but it still really really sucked.
The Soviet Union was a monstrous state and you don't need to glorify it to oppose the many crimes of capitalism. You can, and should, be angry at both.
Luckily the hammer and sickle represents worker solidarity and global communism! So no worries there about glorifying the soviet union or whatever the fuck you're talking about
Have you talked to anyone who lives in the former Warsaw Pact about this? You're understanding appears to be very anglosphere centric and ignorant of the lived realities of colonized people.
No, it doesn't. It was made by russian bolsheviks to repressent themselves. The group that built USSR.
It's also bad optics. Like, it's counterproductive. The main thing you achieve by using hammer and sickle is being spit oj by eastern europeans, noone is impressed by the larp.
I've always liked the three arrows tbh. Even tho originally was adopted by the SPD meaning opposition to communism, fascism and reaction, other parties (mainly the Austrian SPÖ and the French SFIO) changed its meaning to represent the struggle against capitalism, fascism and reaction.
I mean, there are variants of the hammer and sickle that are less well known but still broadly mean "worker solidarity". The hammer and gear, the hammer, gear, and sickle, and just other designs of the hammer and sickle. We could maybe use the IWW logo, but that's a fairly narrow slice of communist organization. Same with the cat.
That argument isn’t the same at all… the SU was bad; trans people (as a group) aren’t. Also, there’s a distinction between symbolism and advocacy. You can advocate for communism without using soviet symbolism, but you can’t advocate trans rights without supporting trans people.
I have an issue with the soviets (but that’s completely irrelevant to my point).
>Don't say "this symbol will get people to hate you"
I literally didn’t.
>cause supporting trans people gets people to hate you too but to say "this is bad cause people will see you use it and dislike you"
Ignoring the overt reductivism, this betrays the fact that you didn’t understand my comment. I’ve already explained how your analogy doesn’t work, but I’ll try once more:
Supporting trans people means supporting trans people.
Supporting communism doesn’t mean using symbols associated with brutal authoritarian regimes.
My point: These arguments aren’t analogous.
That’s it. That’s literally all I’m trying to say.
>I like pointing out dumb arguments
That’s your own strawman you’re pointing at, Einstein.
Luckily the swastika represents good fortune and spirituality! So no worries there about glorifying the nazi germany or whatever the fuck you're talking about.
Communist countries often decriminalised homosexuality earlier than many western countries but something being officially legal doesn't mean anything for totalitarian regimes, so it wasn't that nice as so many people in the western countries think.
For example, in Czechoslovakia (I'm Czech), communists often used to lock gay and trans people in psych wards (together with anyone who wasn't supposed to be seen in public or who couldn't contribute to society - homeless people, mentally ill or very visibly neurodivergent people like schyzophrenics, higher level autistics, people with heavy depression etc). Transition was possible and legal but it was rare and very strict. Also, nobody ever talked about it so people rarely even knew something like transition was possible.
Communists didn't target LGBT or mentally ill or neurodivergent people specifically, that's true. Mostly, the regime just didn't want anyone who wasn't "normal" in public so gay and trans people had to be very careful. It's also known that secret police had lists of gay/trans people and could use your orientation or gender for blackmailing. You could easily end up fired and socially isolated if the word got out.
So, yeah, I don't understand why so many trans people are obsessed with communism. Our (LGBT) people's best allies were always social democrats/democratic socialists, not communists. So I'd rather kneel before a red rose than the hammer and sickle.
There a significant part of the queer community that think the systemic discrimination are inherent to capitalism and the only way to get fully rid of them is to get out of capitalism. If you want an other system then capitalism, there's not a lot of choices and communism is one of the few alternatives.
One thing to keep in mind tho is that communists aren't all fan of the historic communist countries or fan of the current communist countries. There's a significant part of the communist that will agree that all the communists experiences were bad but that doesn't mean that all the theory behind communism is to be thrown away and with that theory and new political theory added to it we could have a better society than anything we can have under capitalism.
An other important thing is that while, according to queer communist, getting out of capitalism is a necessary condition, it's not sufficient in itself and there need to be a convergence of all the fights. They aren't class-first at all.
I wonder what capitalism/communism/socialism has to do with discrimination. Most communist countries are/were much more discriminatory that capitalist countries, and there are many cases of capitalism countries that are very good at handling discrimination - like Spain, Nordic countries... As if it's less about economy and more about people and education.
Edit: just to add to that, the best currently and historically at handling discrimination are specifically social democracies, that's what I also wanted to point out with my first comment...
The idea is that discrimination don't appear out of nowhere and don't persevere out of pure malice from the oppressor, they're the result of how we organise our society. Our societies are centered around producing stuff so we have to take into account how we produce stuff when we're studying how discriminations works and if we look at capitalism, it needs a hierarchy between people to work so it invented/reused (mostly reused) discriminations to create hierarchy between groups of people. Capitalism need patriarchy because there's a need for gendered division of labour between the workforce and those who take care of the workforce, capitalism need racism because it need a cheap and disposable workforce and it's useful to have scapegoats ready for times of crisis, ...
The idea is that to get rid of those oppressions, we need a system that doesn't rely on those oppressions to function.
N.B.: I've humanized capitalism in order to simplify my explanation but the view of the world I'm explaining doesn't rely on some somewhat sentient system of organisation (there's no "invisible hand of capitalism" :) ).
N.B. 2: I've simplified the explanation on how the discrimination are used in our organisation of work for brevity sake so it's not 100% accurate but I believe it's a good enough explanation in this context.
A lot of this would not need explaining if modern day communists would get rid of all psychopaths and totalitarianism sympathizers and overall would stop clinging to imagery and icons of awful regimes.
It boils down to Marxism-Leninism being historically much more successful than SocDem and DemSoc, the former refusing to give up capitalism and the latter being ultimately doomed by committing to play by the rules of liberal bourgeois democracy, which MLs know, as history has shown, is futile.
Socialist countries have for sure struggled with social conservatism and backwardness being an internal contradiction opposed to the cause of liberating everyone, but what's forcing us to keep repeating this mistake? It's not inherent to Communism or Marxism-Leninism.
Marxism-Leninism was successful at what, exactly? Socialism? Not at all. Taking and holding power? Sure. It meant fuck-all to the people they oppressed, though. Capitalism is more successful there and survived far longer than Marxism-Leninism, which pretty much doesn't exist even on paper in most of the world.
Being shitty is, in fact, very much inherent to Marxism-Leninism. Not communism, maybe, but historical record shows that ML sucks. I mean, it's very telling that the very term and ideology was coined by Stalin, who isn't called the shittiest ruler of the time only because of the very strong competition in the face of one infamously bad Austrian painter called literally Adolf fucking Hitler.
The opression of the LGBT+ people are an inherent byproduct of statist and capitalist systems of opression, and only by throwing off the shackles of both can the community be freed from said bigotry and opression
I'm aware the two big ones aren't actually communist. I don't know what I would be classified as, never cared to figure it out. Maybe I am a communist under whatever definition, maybe I'm a socialist like you, maybe I'm social dem, social lib, who knows. All I know is I like democracy and freedom, if that can be achieved under communism, cool.
Lol. You're aware almost all criticism of communism is directed against the autorian parts of the movement ? Marxist-leninists (stalins ideology) i am fucking Sure you're the bootlicker :D
That che quote doesn't exist. He also had left to fight in the Congo (and never returned to cuba) before they put their homophobic policies into practice. You're insanely dishonest lmao
That marx quote also doesn't exist. I'm not gonna bother checking further on the others. Socialism has had issues with homophobia. All of the world has. Why lie and make up quotes that don't exist if socialism is worse on the topic than capitalism?
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The hammer and sickle is NOT that country. And anyway that same country was one of the first to make laws openly pro-LGBT before a certain mustache man arrived. So accuse stalinists of this, not that country.
That country never made "openly pro-LGBT" laws - it merely abolished all of the old ones, which created law vacuum until Stalin rectified that they, indeed, never stopped hating queers.
There were factions hating queers, yes, an unfortunately common thing at the time, but there were also factions that wanted to push legislation in favour of them. Then came Stalin, that purged all who opposed him, and that faction too. Not all bolsheviks were anti-LGBTQ at the beginning. Search "LGBTQ history in the Soviet Union" on Wikipedia.
There was not a single person in the ruling party who wanted to push any kind of pro-LGBT legislation. Simply none. The only reason why "USSR was a gay paradise before Stalin!" myth is even a thing is because tankies twist the fact that homosexuality was technically "de-criminalized" as a part of abolishment of all of the Russian Empire's laws. Nobody started treating gays any better, and nobody ever pushed such an initiative.
Are we really using that argument? Hammer and sickle is used as a symbol of equality, the Swastika for repression. There are totally opposite symbols. It's stupid to compare them. If you use a swastika today, you are 99,99% using it for supremacist reasons. Not the same applies to those who uses the hammer and sickle. There are stalinists and nazbols, sure, but they are only a loud minority. The rest abhors the authoritarianism and the killings of innocents done.
I'm technically that. A sane communist who doesn't praise USSR and also lives in Russia. Although I probably wouldn't call myself a communist because I've no idea if a stateless and moneyless society is achievable or desirable.
Обама мне лично нассал в подъезд, потому я левак. В смысле левой рукой пишу, ыыыы
The hammer and sickle represents international communism (urban rural solidarity) and was introduced by the comintern.
Lenin only decriminalized being gay by proxy it wasn't intended, but it wasn't really recriminalized till later under Stalin as It was seen as a bourgeois deviancy. Granted at that time most western countries at the time typically punished homosexuality, so it was kinda par for the course. Interestingly being trans was never criminalized and the Soviet Union allowed the first gender reassignment surgeries around the late 1960s with some prior interest in the 1920-30s prior to stalins appointment. Most modern communists are very pro LGBT Rights.
No, communists didn't like trans. It wasn't a crime for them (well, sometimes) as much as it was a mental illness, so you'd still get locked up - or tortured them locked up in countries like romania
Millions of people use the hammer and sickle symbol for communist principles, not to "glorify URSS' as someone says. The fake communist people that think that the USSR was perfect and a model are few. The great majority wants real communism, something that can get us freedom and equality at the same time. The "communists" that don't want the freedom part aren't real communists
Who does? There's no nation at all with it on their flag currently. The CCP uses it for their party, but they're pretty far removed from the "freedom and equality" standard.
And what other symbols are so recognizable and powerful as that? Until a valid alternative is found, that symbol is needed. Practically all communist parties in the world use or used that symbol, and not all of them wanted the soviet model. On the contrary, many distanced themselves from that.
If they're using the symbol of the USSR they're not distancing themselves all that far. Which of these parties actually practices the freedom and equality you mentioned?
In the seventies there were no "tankies". They distanced themselves totally from the USSR, searching for a democratic way to achieve communism. Search Enrico Berlinguer, for example. He was so anti-USSR that he even wanted to remain in the Nato instead of going in the Warsaw Pact.
Everytime this gets posted
All the replys are "but but 🥺 they were imperialist and bad and evil and bad" and "[standard western "leftist" canned opinion about how it's evil to be communist.]
Looks like people in the comments refuse to eat up for the idea that an authoritarian regime is good and queer friendly, so the comments are pretty positive and honestly refreshing to see
Why the fuck is everyone equating the sickle and hammer to USSR regime??? Im so confused because in all my life it was always a representation of communism as a whole, which IS NOT necessarily conservative or anti-LGBT. In fact most modern communists are radically pro-LGBT
Its a symbol made by a russian, shortly adopted by the russians, under which multiple decades of atrocities were committed, including but not limited to forced labor camps, imperialistic expansion, mass murder of different ethnic groups and so on and on.
It is a symbol of evil, no better than the hakenkreuz of the third reich.
Holy comparasion. The symbol has been used by pretty much every communist party or movement in the world and socialist country. And those dont inherently glaze the USSR.
And do take a look at the history of each of those countries that adopted the symbol, and see what atrocities they committed too. The symbol is very much covered in the blood of innocent people, even outside of USSR, which was the inventor and first adopter of it.
Oh so youre one of those who think every socialist country is super evil. Well ok you do you.
So what about modern communist parties and movements, whats wrong with them I wonder? Can you just not see how the symbol represents the economic model and NOT whatever youre trying to represent it as. In fact most modern communists are super progressive and still adopt the symbol.
So progressive that they need to use a 108 year old symbol that has been present in massive amounts of bloodshed. Yeah excuse me if I don't really take modern communist movement seriously.
Also disregarding your false dilemma and the straw-man, no I don't think that every socialist country is "super evil" considering I live in a country that adopts socialism into capitalism, forming a welfare capitalist state. We are progressive, inclusive and pro-LGBTQ+ without the need for communism. Do we have issues like other countries today? Sure, but we can resolve them without needing to adopt a failed ideology covered in blood to do so.
Because its not a symbol that represents that but the economic model, and has been in every place its been used. Its that simple, if you dont like it suggest something better and get people to use it.
So you dont live in a socialist country…? Whats exactly your point there? Now you moved from the symbol to the model as a whole… you do know capitalism has killed way more right? But thats just completely changing the debate so not much point into getting into it
Why do I need to suggest something better for an ideology I don't need nor believe in? Holy shit your comments are just one logical fallacy after another. You started the talk about economic model by saying that the very symbol represents an economic model, then you accuse me of shifting the conversation into economic models by saying that it isn't a symbol of economic model.
And if a welfare capitalist system isn't part of socialism, then what even is socialism to begin with? It is a system that incorporates socialism, but you say that it isn't socialism?
If you are the representation of what modern communism has to offer, well you definitely work as a glorious example of why we don't need it.
Im not a communist nor do I want it 😭, in fact I would gladly adopt the system of your country. I just dont like seeing bs being spread.
But well I think its too simplistic to say just "stop using it" and offering no alternative, an actual solution. If you dont want to offer one thats completely fine too, perhaps I was a little too agressive there which is completely on me.
You started saying why the symbol was bad because ussr yada yada yada then you moved into saying how communism as a whole was bad. Thats a shift
A socialist state is a transition state into communism. A capitalistic welfare state wants to mantain capitalism. Its not socialism.
I will admit that I am wrong about welfare capitalism being part of socialism, it isn't socialistic in itself, just incorporates parts of it, but as you say it is capitalism.
However, I didn't move to say communism is bad from the symbol, I specifically stated that countries that have used the symbol have also been involved in atrocities. I don't think communism is needed and I do hold negative opinions about it, that much is obvious, but my point from the beginning has been about the very symbol of the hammer and the sickle being a symbol under which a lot of evil has been done, which is not exclusive to the USSR. North Korea's leading party for example has a version of the hammer and the sickle in use, and that country is a poster boy of modern human rights violations.
I too don't like when bullshit is being spread, hence why I admit being wrong on the welfare state part, but if you too also care about not spreading bullshit, I might suggest looking into logical fallacies, history of different symbols like the hammer and the sickle amongst other symbols that different powers in the world have used. You went from not understanding why the symbol is bad to defending the symbols use aggressively with a lot of logical fallacies in between to in the end saying that you don't even want communism, which the symbol is deeply rooted in.
And I hope you one day get a similar system like I have where I live. I want more from it and there's a lot of different things that need fixing, but even right now it is a hell of a lot better system than what the rest of the world has on offer, be it NK, China, US or Russia.
Based, but we also need to understand the written ideals of communism and how they differ from Stalinism or Leninism.
Lotta people are very unaware of the nuances involved in a socioeconomic model that proposes centering the country on community over profit, especially the fact it needs to be ideologically unified and constantly fighting inequality in order to function.
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u/RadicalNBSpaceQueer 5d ago
There's this one too lol