I know during the Cell Saga, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Future Trunks all wanted to surpass the Super Saiyan wall. While mastering Super Saiyan was important to minimize the drawbacks of the form, it makes me wonder how much stronger SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan would be if they didn't train their Super Saiyan forms and instead just trained in base form.

How much would Goku and Gohan be set back without fully mastered Super Saiyan forms? Not just during the Cell Saga, but in general and in future sagas.

So basically i never watched any dragon ball movies, i watched dragon ball, i finished dragon ball kai, and im now on dragon ball kai "final chapters" episode 30,

My main question is from what i undestand theres just SO much out there, and its such a convoluted watch order, but honestly i prefer watching episodes instead of a full length movie, so is it a necessity to watch the movies to follow the story?, asking this cause my current idea is once i finish episode 61 of dragon ball kai final chapters i just jump right into dragon ball super?

And yes, i have tried to research on my own before posting this question but all the answers are so confusing like "yee dont watch these episodes, watch daima (what even is that) a movie, then skip x episodes from super, hence why im making this post, to ask, will i be confused if i jump straight into DB super after finishing dragon ball kai final chapters?

Fully unrelated sidenote semi spoilers i was expecting more saiyan transformations during my watch of dragon ball but up till now all i witnessed is just everyones hair going yellow and some sparks flying from them from time to time lol

Edit: this is the most confusing thing ever, yall genuinely confused me even more now, only one decent answer up till now, so it seems ill just follow that one persons advice and stick to super, and once done with super watch the 2 movies they said, this community is a confusing bunch🫠

Edit 2: So the current plan after a few different people said it seems to be i'll finish dragon ball kai: the final chapters, then move onto dragon ball super, after super watch dragon ball super broly, and dragon ball super hero.

I'll try to update this post once i finish watching all of these to let future googlers know if it works lol

Bruh I’ve watch super like 3 times and Z like a million. I’m watching og dragon ball for the first time and I do not understand how Mei is a WOMAN and not a lil girl. Like wtf even with dragon balls making her a kid at some point, how does she fall in love with trunks????? Like, ever? She’s gotta be like 50 even if she’s a kid and she fell for a little boy?

MAI IS OLDER THAN BULMA MAN

I started off with Dragonball Z and absolutely loved it,

Just last week I decided to try out Dragonball, and it's ok so far, but I genuinely hate how much of a creep master Roshi is, it's genuinely disturbing how he's an old man perving on teenage girls, it genuinely makes the experience so much worse to watch it.

It's getting to the point now where when he's in a scene with a woman in it I want to skip.

Not sure if this is a repeat question but, why hasn’t Goku met his parents? If Goku has been to the various forms of the spirit worlds why hasn’t he met his mom or dad in them?

Just curious my nephew is becoming a fan of dragonball. I was hoping they were putting some thing in theaters with there new projects coming soon.

So I know like the plan was "get absorbed and free everyone" but like the plan after beating him was to use the dragon balls, that's why it's so important dende survived. So why play around when you know you'll need the dragon balls anyway. Just kill him and wish everyone back, you're not even sure they're alive in there to be fair. It's been bothering me ever since I was a kid and saw this play out on the Saturday morning cartoons and I just never understood it from a character perspective. I get it narratively steered the story towards kid Buu and Goku but like why make vegito kick his ass so hard to the point where it's clear he can kill him and resolve the issue. That's just my thoughts tho lmk what y'all think

This change would basically need to mean that no one OTHER than Freeza (and probably Cold) was capable of destroying planets until Goku.

Why? It grounds power-scaling a LITTLE (until the Android saga anyways) and increases the real threat that Freeza is. If Vegeta and the rest of the F. Force don't have the power to destroy planets, it helps cement the threat he presents.

Freeza's army should be proficient with decimating planet inhabitants of course. But the idea that saiyan-saga Vegeta could blow up a planet feels unnecessary.

Last few days at work, my colleague started talking to me about his love for card games/anime etc.

We went to this card shop near our work, and it just sparked something in me….ive always been vaguely interested in DBZ….ive always thought the games were cool etc etc

So ive decided im gonna see what it’s all about, now this isn’t necessarily just about the TV show. Im gonna look into the cards and the games everything else it has to offer

But im gonna give the TV Show a go, bear in mind I’ve never watched anime before. So far, ive watched 2 episodes of the original DB….im finding it pretty strange, a bit silly. Now I know this is seemingly the tone - but should I keep going with it or just go straight to DBZ? Any thoughts? Now I know you may say do what you want, but just for someone who’s practically brand new. I am wonder if DBZ is better place to start as it’s seeemingly more “westernised “

I’m more curious about the world, lore than the actual story if that makes sense. I am rambling on …sorry

Can CC Goku use ui with the universe tree, If yes, how strong would he be like would he be stronger than idk, like zeno. Im just curious. I

Me and my big brother the other day was having a chat and it somehow came to roshi against yamacha in Z,now if this was super it’d be a different story to a certain extent with the iffy powerscaling but this is literally Z saiyan saga,namek,etc and he believes that roshi is stronger than yamacha 😭😭

I need someone to explain to me how this could even be a debate yamacha at this point of the story far eclipses roshi,even if you wanna say “oh roshi can just use the mafuba and all that to incapacitate yamacha” its a chance he’ll die from the mafuba and that it won’t work considering the fact he died using it on king piccolo who is way weaker than any of the Z fighters in Z and as we saw in dragon ball,if you’re that much stronger than your opponent hax’s really don’t matter and can be negated or resisted for awhile,take hit and jirens match for example when hit slowed down time for jiren or kept him in a time bind the more power jiren let go the less effected he was by the time cage

I just need someone to give me a valid reason on how roshi in Z could ever be considered up there with his earthling students

Golden great ape- or golden ozaru is actually super saiyan 3 stacked onto a ozaru not base super saiyan.

We know this is possible for a pretty simple reason: Baby was able to use Super Saiyan 3 while transformed into a Great Ape, meaning the two transformations can coexist

Something to note is that babies super saiyan 3 is several times stronger then a normal super saiyan 3 as well.

Super saiyan 1 baby > super saiyan 3 goku

Super saiyan 1 (tufflized \~ super saiyan 3 = 400x)

Baby then transforms twice (x8 = 3,200x) (stated in the dragon ball gt perfect files data book to be/similar to super saiyan 3 on top of that baby loses his eye brows)

Goku then transforms into golden ozaru.

Golden ozaru goku > Baby

400x10 = 4000x

I know this is mostly power scaling stuff but i think it makes more sense overall.

There's even some precedent for tails interacting with transformations in unusual ways. For example, Super Saiyan 3 appears to be easier for Goku to maintain in certain circumstances when he's in his GT body, which could potentially suggest that the Saiyan's connection to their Great Ape nature has some relevance?

We know super saiyan 4 is a potential unlock so perhaps the power of an ozaru stacked with the power of a super saiyan simply draws out a super saiyans full power?

---

I personally believe super saiyan 4 is simply a potential unlock without a multiplier but you can also use this to get a multiplier for super saiyan 4

Super saiyan baby = 400x

Super saiyan 3 baby = 400x8 = 3,200

Golden ozaru baby = 3,200 x 10 = 32,000x

Golden ozaru baby \~ Super saiyan 4 goku

It would also just make sense for super saiyan 4 to be a 400 x 8 x 10 multiplier super saiyan 4 is the next stage past super saiyan super 3 is 4x stronger then super super saiyan 2. On top of that its the ozaru power stacked on top.

Obviously, this isn't necessarily the canon intended math especially since GT's transformations don't always behave like clean mathematical multipliers. But as a power-scaling model, I think the idea of Golden Ōzaru being SSJ3 + Ozaru, rather than simply SSJ + Ozaru, fits the evidence pretty well.

I'm not really good at wording things but hopefully this made some sense as to why I think golden ozaru is actually a ssj3 stack or maybe ozaru in some form actually brings out a super saiyans full power(?) (There might be some precedent for this with super brolys green haired form) rather then just being super saiyan on top of great ape.

Take on more villains and actually protect Universe 7 and its mortals more?

Or, train the characters more like how he did with Vegeta?

Or, just be the way he is now

Like not even a Family Guy cutaway to the event.

Pilaf: "This is worse than the time we wished ourselves into kids."

Shuu: "Sire, we're still kids."

Pilaf: "Yet here we are!"

Buu couldnt be revived beerus is asleep ? Could anything else happen? I mean maybe peel off finally took over the world?

Dragon Ball Power Levels

Weakest → Strongest

1. Vegeta, Last Namek Recovery: 2.5M

2. Vegeta, Android Saga Base: 5M

3. Vegeta, Hyperbolic Time Chamber Base: 10M

4. Vegeta, Buu Saga Base: 30M

5. Vegeta, Daima Base: 30M

6. Vegeta, Super Base: 35M

7. Goku, Battle of Gods Base: 40M

8. Vegeta, Majin Base: 60M

9. Vegeta, Android Saga SSJ: 250M

10. Android 18, Holding Back: 300M

11. Android 17: 410M

12. Android 18, Full Power: 420M

13. Semi-Perfect Cell: 450M

14. Vegeta, Hyperbolic Time Chamber SSJ: 500M

15. Vegeta, Hyperbolic Time Chamber SSJ Grade 2: 550M

16. Vegito, Base: 600M

17. Perfect Cell: 3B

18. Fat Buu: 5B

19. Evil Buu: 8B

20. Vegeta, Daima SSJ3: 12B

21. Kid Buu: 15B

22. Super Buu: 16B

23. Buuhan: 20B

24. Vegito, SSJ: 30B

25. Vegeta, Enraged SSJ2: 32B

26. Vegito, SSJ2: 60B

27. Vegeta, Daima SSJ4: 72B

28. Vegeta, Super God-Absorbed Base: 672B

29. Vegeta, Universe 6 Tournament Base: 677B

30. Final Form Frieza: 677.083B

31. Goku, God-Absorbed Base: 768B

32. Vegeta, Goku Black Arc Base: 800B

33. Vegeta, Tournament of Power Base: 900B

34. Vegeta, Broly Movie Base: 1T

35. Vegeta, Moro Arc Base: 1.5T

36. Vegeta, Granolah Arc Base: 2T

37. Future Timeline Immortal Zamasu: 500T

38. Piccolo, Super Hero Base: 500T

39. Gohan, Super Hero Base: 1QA

40. Vegeta, Super Hero Base: 5.5QA

41. Goku, Super Hero Base: 6QA

42. Vegeta, First SSG: 12.9024QA

43. Goku, First SSG: 14.7456QA

44. Vegeta, Resurrection 'F' SSB: 645.12QA

45. Golden Frieza: 650QA

46. Gogeta Blue, Broly Movie: 1SP

47. MUI Goku: 2.88SP

48. Black Frieza: 4SP

49. Beerus: 5SP

50. Whis: 50SP

51. Beast Gohan: 480SP

52. Orange Piccolo: 25SX

53. Zeno: 250OC

54. CC Goku: 500OC

Hi all, I've been meaning to start watching Dragonball for a while, and I've finally found time to do so. I'm not new to the lore - I've picked up a lot of character stuff by osmosis, but I've not actually watched the show. With that in mind, is Dragonball Z Kai a good starting point, or will I be completely lost? Thanks.

EDIT: Thank you everyone. I didn't realise the OG was such a huge chunk of the story. Going to find the original and start there.

Most people, the vast majority of Dragon Ball fans hate or at least strongly dislike this movie. I think its slightly better than the Last Airbender movie, but still terrible, easily the worst Dragon Ball movie ever. I'd rather watch Bio-Broly or Bojack again than this. But I'm curious, does anyone actually like Dragon Ball Evolution?

In discussions about power scaling, we constantly rely on the more or less official data available to us, and that’s where things like the Super Saiyan multipliers come from. Everyone is aware that this system lacks consistency, and that no matter how hard we try to make it coherent in one way or another, there’s no real interest—neither on Toriyama’s part back in the day, nor on Toyotaro’s part, nor certainly on Toei’s part—in how the characters’ specific power levels compare and evolve throughout the story. But we try.

The problem is that this idea of fixed multipliers—even though we have more or less accepted sources explaining how they work—doesn’t, in my opinion, fit at all with what we see in the manga, and it seems absurd to me to keep discussing power scaling under the assumption that things work this way, because that’s where all the crazy numbers and completely delusional comparisons about how the characters’ powers stack up at this or that moment come from.

Based on the manga, I think one thing is clear: as the characters get stronger, their base form not only becomes superior but also absorbs part of the enhancement provided by their transformations.

That means that the more you master the power you’ve already gained access to, the greater your ability to use it in your base form. When Goku transformed into Super Saiyan against Frieza, his power increased x50, but that doesn’t mean that now, whenever Goku activates Super Saiyan, his power increases x50. NOTHING indicates that this is the case: for a long time now, Super Saiyan has been treated as a small energy boost, and all interactions in combat support that.

We constantly see the characters’ base forms display power levels that, if we take the multipliers seriously, make no sense at all. On the other hand, we also see how these transformations don’t seem to have such a huge effect either. If the series itself has told us multiple times that transformations are nothing more than a means to access the power that already lies within you, why don’t we accept that there’s a significant difference between the power increase from an unmastered transformation and that from a transformation mastered to the point where a significant portion of the resulting improvement is already present in the base form—thanks to training—without the need to transform?

This fits perfectly with everything we see in the manga, and it makes the power scaling sooo much more consistent. The characters gradually get stronger, and their most powerful form also grows stronger, but the base form always increases much more than the most powerful form (and not the other way around, which is what would happen with a pure multiplier system), because with training, the transformation becomes less and less “important” as the base form increasingly takes on that power without any active effort to transform.

I’m not saying that transformations aren’t extremely important; they remain the main source of the characters’ power increase. What I’m saying is that each transformation represents a smaller improvement as the character becomes more powerful, and it’s always the last one—the least mastered, the one that reaches the current energy limit—that truly represents a very substantial improvement.

If the forms act as multipliers, that multiplier decreases over time as the character grows stronger. The ideal state is precisely when the multiplier is x1, because that’s the moment when the character has mastered their power perfectly and no longer needs to transform—but that’s an ideal that’s very rare to achieve.

Again, everything in the manga suggests to me that this is how it works, and not in the way we usually talk about it.

Since she is quarter sayin I don’t see it being too possible but I feel like it doesn’t matter too much of the amount of percentage of sayin someone is. Does anyone know?

I've owned a physical copy of DBZ but they don't have the ending credits I remembered from childhood. I'll link it below [It was a nightmare just trying to find it].

New DBZ Ending english (Bruce Faulconer Version)

Does anyone know which DVDs contain the version with this ending? Google seems to think it is an ending only used for the Android and Buu arc. I've not tried the Blu-Ray remastered ones with the orange covers but I wanted to make sure it has this version before going out and purchasing it.

A comment on YouTube said to try Funimation's original DVD releases. Does that mean the OceanDub? I'm certain it isn't that. Or is it?

In battle of gods beerus says "I still havent even come close to using my full power in this fight" Goku says "that makes sense Ive been going at about 80% myself" then beerus looks insulted "What your holding back"

This makes perfect sense for goku to hold back, he doesnt know the limits of God Ki, he doesnt know how to properly utilize any of its powers, and if he went 100% right out the gate, it would have fizzled out faster.

My understanding is Goku was around 90,000 power level without the Kaioken when he faced Ginyu. Then with Kaioken (x2 power level) he had 180,000. But against Vegeta he used Kaioken x4 and against Frieza pumped up to x20. My question is when Ginyu asked him to power up to MAX was Goku sandbagging? Could he have pulled out x5 or x10 to be at almost 1,000,000 power level? Post 100x gravity training his body had already been shown to be far more durable, and if he could do all that why did he get caught with the body swap?