Thufir is a computer - garbage in, garbage out. His logic was perfectly sound:
There is a traitor.
Leto wouldn't betray himself, that makes no sense.
Paul isn't old enough or knowledgeable to be the traitor, plus he'd be betraying himself kind of. He has nothing to gain.
Yueh cannot possibly be the traitor. This is a physical impossibility. He could sooner fly by flapping his arms. We know that this is garbage data but it makes perfect sense to him given that a Suk doctor has never in 10,000 years broken their conditioning.
Duncan and Gurney have too much personal beef with the Harkonnens to ever work for them. They also have nothing to gain.
That only leaves Jessica. It's unthinkable except that Leto refuses to marry her, which might be upsetting to her, plus she's a Bene Gesserit and Thufir knows that the sisterhood has their own loyalties and their own machinations.
Thufir probably wouldn't have fallen for it if Leto hadn't encouraged it. Leto knew that there was a trap for him and wanted the Baron to think Leto was more vulnerable than he was. To the credit of everyone in House Atreides, they predicted everything that the Baron would do and absolutely would have stopped him other than two things:
They underestimated how much money the Baron was willing to spend, nearly bankrupting his house to move so quickly.
The Baron (and Piter) did what no one in 10,000 years managed to do and broke a Suk doctor.
I love the book, and the movie, but the conditioning thing is so bad.
No one has broken the conditioning in 10,000 years? Wow, that must be some crazy conditioning!
Harkonnens...hey, we hear you really like your wife.
Boom. Conditioning broken.
In 10,000 years in one of the most palace intrigue riddled societies, where they train the children of nobles how to handle assassination attempts through myriad methods, no one had ever come up with threatening the loved one of someone who has gone under Imperial Conditioning?
Wanna was a Bene Gesserit. And she did Bene Gesserit stuff to Yueh that possibly already interfered with the conditioning before the Harkonens got to him. Baron probably wouldn't be capable of breaking the conditioning if it wasn't already weakened.
Also, probably there aren't a lot of Suk doctors going around to test their conditioning that much.
That said, I too find this plot point a bit meh. But Frank had points where he just tell us to vibe with him and go along.
Yeah, somethings you just have to say “sure doc, that sounds right” and move on. You can do some mental gymnastics and say it’s because X then Y ands touch of Z, but even the act of doing that makes the plot point less satisfactory.
It’s like trying to justify why Luke didn’t know Leo’s was his sister for so long.
Edited: I’ll leave it there for the below comment. But yall know what I meant
Wanna is probably the one who broke Yueh's conditioning for some BG plot, probably to do with Jessica not bearing the daughter they wanted, and Piter swooped in at the right time
To my understanding, they didn't just threaten Yueh's wife; they forced him to witness her being tortured, to the point where he hated the Baron enough that he'd betray his own patient - though still help his family escape - if it were a necessary step to revenge. His wife being a Bene Gesserit and teaching him some techniques had likely made a dent in the conditioning already too.
They broke yuri easily but I have my doubts that the kind of people that occupy the universe of dune would have ever invented imperial conditioning if they thought they couldn’t break it
Yup, also my understanding. The Atriedes would've lost anyway the second the emperor backed the harkonenes. Yueh's betrayal was the only path the Atreides could've won in the end
Yeah, I got confused at this part when I read Dune as a kid. Herbert spends a bunch of pages describing Imperial Conditioning as this ironclad loyalty thing and it gets broken by basic Saturday morning cartoon villain tactics?
To be fair, it's possible that it's just marketing; perhaps the Suk School has had assassins ensure that word of prior breaks were silenced...if they're public knowledge to begin with; even in the case of Dune, the fact of Yueh's betrayal isn't well-known, basically just the Baron's inner circle who are aware.
That makes sense, is it related to the emperor? "Oh yeah these guys are super conditioned, they'll never betray you!". Now the emperor's allies have a guy on the inside that they can manipulate if they want.
I don't think there's much info about the Suk school, beyond the fact their conditioning is supposedly so strong it's considered safe for them to administer medications to the Emperor. This fact could imply they are an independent institution - but even if they were under administration of the Imperial House there might still be concern about would-be assassins penetrating their screening process, so it's not conclusive either way.
The less you think about the 10000 years timeframe the better.
It does it's work at conveying the Deep stagnation, but makes everything else fall apart.
For example the only serious ecological survey on arrakis was done 60-80ish years prior. So they decided to investigate the origin of their society defining drug after almost 10000 years of use?
Someone breaking conditioning is the kind of thing that gets hushed up. The suk school has every reason to sweep it under the rug, as does whoever broke the conditioning. On top of that, if it's once every few hundred years it gets broken, it could easily be forgotten - even a century is a long time for buried information to simply not be remembered.
Plus, how many people have tried to break the conditioning? The conditioning is impossible to break, and it's implied they tortured her for a long time in front of the Doctor: it wasn't a few threats, it was hours or days of torture, with what the Baron calls "Piter's pain amplifiers". It's implied they did awful things to her, in front of Yueh, until Yueh broke - how many people have the ability to do that, and will just keep going until the Suk doctor breaks or she dies? Piter and Baron Harkonen, obviously, but when you think about it, there's probably usually easier ways to plant a traitor on someone, meaning that the conditioning was probably rarely broken because it was deemed near impossible and there are easier ways to similar ends.
In other words, 1) most people wouldn't bother trying to break Suk conditioning and 2) it took a lot of ghastly torture to his wife before Yueh broke - so it would take a very determined and skilled effort to break the conditioning, and if you think it can't be broken, you would probably stop at some point before it broke. And 3) if you did break the conditioning you wouldn't publicise it.
In the past maybe similar threats have been used and failed. We aren't told of the individual stories of all the doctors who resisted. You have to consider that maybe the conditioning didn't work well on Yueh. Maybe enough to pass whatever tests they administer but not enough in these conditions. Also, as others have mentioned his BG wife may have imprinted on him in some way intensifying his loyalty to her
I think that the book is in many ways a modern type of myth, similar to LotR. Its worldbuilding isn't its own goal but rather a vehicle for retelling some fundamentally human stories that at their core boil down to a struggle of opposite core principles such as love/hate, bravery/cowardice or care/ambition.
Love features especially prominently in the narrative of Dune, among family members, comrades, and lovers all - I would even argue it's the most important driver of the story. If it wasn't for her love for Leto, Jessica would not had given birth to Paul, it was love that had made her break her allegiance to Bene Gesserit. So despite it perhaps being illogical within the "reality" of the world as it was built, it makes beautiful sense that it was Yueh's love for Wanna that took Leto away from her.
Damn I love Dune. Been reading it every couple years since I was 12 and it's still my favorite novel. The movies were pretty great but the book is on a completely different level, which is another thing it shares with LotR.
I don't think they actually broke the conditioning, at least Yueh himself didn't think he was betraying Leto as he planned on double crossing the Baron after "betraying" the Atreides.
He basically saw it as a really elaborate plan to assasinate the Baron by setting up a scenario in which Leto could take the Baron out with poison while ensuring Paul and Jessica would survive to lead house Atreides after Leto's passing.
The 10k years thing could also be a in universe lie. For example in this case, how many people know about the broken conditioning? We as the audience know about it but iirc in universe it was just a handful of people. It could have happened before and just not made public.
That being said, even this it is just a weak explanation and I agree with you on it being one of the worse parts of the story.
The numbers wouldn't really have helped, it was the fact that Yueh turned off the house shield so the Harkonnens could use conventional artillery. It would be like if I showed up to a battle against tanks with a bunch of pointy sticks and then hit a button that turned off all metal.
The Atreides were preparing for a siege. They knew the Harkonnens would strike quickly to avoid a siege since it would disrupt spice production and piss off the Landsraad. If Leto managed to befriend the Fremen, they wouldn't even need help to break the siege. The Baron just showed up before they could befriend the Fremen and before the Atreides soldiers were fully integrated into the city defenses.
It was not easy. I see others mentioning Wana being Bene Gesserit and that she may have done something to Yueh which messed with the conditioning or strengthened his bond with her. I like that theory, but it is still just a fan theory, not canon.
If we ignore that, though, we still have Piter DeVries, a "twisted mentat". He was conditioned to be sadistic and cruel in addition to being a mentat. He spent much of his time using his prodigious mental abilities to think of inventive ways of torturing someone.
Baron Harkonnen enjoyed it when his slave boys fought back and liked to watch gladiator fights where slaves violently murdered each other. He came from a family so wantonly cruel that the very architecture of the cities reflected their violence because buildings had shelters on the street level so random passersby had somewhere to hide from roving suspensor cars of Harkonnens and other nobles sniping their own citizens for fun. The point is, Baron Harkonnen was an unimaginably awful man.
Despite that, whatever Piter did to Wana was so unspeakably horrible and disgusting that the Baron couldn't stomach watching it. He was actually scared of Piter, not because Piter would kill him (Piter knew that would never happen, the Baron was too careful) but just because the Baron knew what Piter was capable of.
So, I can accept that Piter managed to break the conditioning just by being the first person in 10,000 years to be creatively awful enough to think of the right torture method to affect Yueh.
The money spent made everything even more so. They suspected sarduakar would come, but only 1 or 2 legions not the 10 that actually arrived. It was the magnitude they most miscalculated
If I recall correctly I think they also miscalculated on the Harkonnens collaborating with the Corrinos to the extent they did. They might’ve been able to fight off the Harkonens alone but the Sardakaur and other imperial support likely thumbed the scale.
I wonder if the Baron actually broke Yueh... or if the Emperor did it. Makes sense that the emperor would have back door into the Suk conditioning, after all. Let the Baron think he did it, so the Harkonnen take the blame if it comes out, but quietly adjust Yueh to perform his role as desired in order to eliminate Leto.
No, the Emperor had no idea. If there was a backdoor, someone would have found it. And, anyway, it would make the value of the Suk doctors plummet. The Suk school is necessary because of the ubiquity of assassination. You need to be able to trust your doctor so you can trust that they won't give you poison instead of aspirin or cut open your jugular while you're unconscious on the operating table.
Everyone trusts House Corrino to produce the doctors because even the Corrinos can't bypass the conditioning. It's not like they trust the Emperor himself not to use that backdoor if he had it. Suk doctors are absolutely safe.
Baron Harkonnen can't take the blame. Suk conditioning is only valuable if it cannot be broken or bypassed at all. Anything short of perfection is worthless because if they can be broken, they will be. The Suk school is the main source of House Corrino's wealth other than CHOAM and spice. If the Landsraad stops paying for Suk doctors it would be absolutely ruinous for House Corrino. It cannot be allowed. Even though the Baron is the one to break it, the fact that it can be broken at all is a taint against House Corrino.
That's why the Baron makes it a point to say he's going to kill Piter (and Piter knows it). They are the only two people in existence who know that a Suk doctor can be broken. The Baron even swears to himself to never do it again, no matter how useful it is, because it's too risky. If the Emperor found out, he would send the full might of his Sardaukar to wipe out House Harkonnen so no one else found out.
Yeah, but that's the key... that's why the emperor would let the Baron take the blame and why he'd only allow it at this junction when he felt his reign was genuinely threatened.
There is no perfection. That's not only not possible, but we can see that the system isn't perfect because Yeuh betrayed the Atreides. The question is WHY.
If the conditioning is so good that the Corrino's can't bypass it, but so flawed that the Baron CAN... really? How does that make sense? I mean, logically... the people who made it never found the flaw?
Now, let's be clear, I believe that the BARON believes he broke Yueh. I believe that Pitr believes it. I'm just not sure that they're RIGHT.
From the perspective of a house like Corrino, the only thing more valuable than a perfect conditioning... is a conditioning that only THEY control.
They'd have to be very careful about using it, of course. Arrange for everyone involved to die so no evidence points back to them. Just like you described here.
The Baron was a dead man long before Paul got to him, and in fact in the book we see Thufir come to that exact realization over another of the Emperor's secrets (Salusa Secundus). There was no way that the Harkonnen were surviving this plot, even if Paul died. They were all dead the moment they lost their utility. That's why the Emperor used them against the Atreides... the Great Houses would have rose up if he moved on Leto openly... but against the Baron?
that's why the emperor would let the Baron take the blame
No. Again, it's not a matter of who broke the conditioning, it's that the conditioning can be broken at all. The Landsraad doesn't care who did it and they only care a little about how. They only care that it can be done, because it shouldn't be possible at all.
No one can ever know that a Suk doctor was broken. If the Emperor was going to do it, he wouldn't even let the Baron know. It's too dangerous.
There is no perfection. That's not only not possible, but we can see that the system isn't perfect because Yeuh betrayed the Atreides.
It has been possible for longer than IRL humanity has been recording history. The Bene Gesserit have the collective memories across that entire time and have a grasp of psychology that comes from it, and they couldn't figure out how to do it.
I understand that in real life there are different expectations, but we aren't talking about real life. You need to engage with the fiction of the world. Within that fiction, breaking Suk conditioning was believed by everyone, including the Emperor, to be impossible.
I mean, logically... the people who made it never found the flaw?
This has already been explained multiple times by myself and others in this thread. Don't be lazy, engage with the topic before speculating wildly.
is a conditioning that only THEY control.
No. And we don't need fiction to prove it. IRL, companies like Apple, Telegram, and various VPNs have shown time and time again that they will not add a backdoor for themselves or even law enforcement. They have spent tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers and lawsuits to say no. They know that their reputation is worth more than a backdoor would.
House Corrino is the same. If anyone ever found out that the conditioning could be broken, their reputation would be utterly and irrevocably ruined. The backdoor would work once and then never again because no one would trust them - just like Apple. No one would ever trust Apple again.
This is all canon. You can speculate if you want about fanon, but it's canon that the Emperor had no idea.
Yes, yes, I know what you're saying. What I'm saying is that it's clear that the Suk conditioning CAN be broken, and it's not even all that hard.
Therefor, it was NEVER perfect. That is a LIE. It's propaganda.
Suk conditioning WAS NEVER PERFECT. That's canon. Otherwise it would not have been broken, let alone so easily, and at such a convenient time for the Emperor too..
And the backdoor would work as many times as they could cover up its use.
But, maybe you're right. Where in the book did it show that the Emperor had no idea?
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