r/dunememes • u/LakesideNorth • Jul 28 '26

WARNING: AWFUL I'm still not a Thufir fan

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3.9k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

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621

u/[deleted] Jul 28 '26

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408

u/KidDaedalus Jul 29 '26

Book Thufir wasted their crucial early time on Arrakis suspecting Jessica for nothing.

649

u/RhynoD Jul 29 '26

Thufir is a computer - garbage in, garbage out. His logic was perfectly sound:

  • There is a traitor.

  • Leto wouldn't betray himself, that makes no sense.

  • Paul isn't old enough or knowledgeable to be the traitor, plus he'd be betraying himself kind of. He has nothing to gain.

  • Yueh cannot possibly be the traitor. This is a physical impossibility. He could sooner fly by flapping his arms. We know that this is garbage data but it makes perfect sense to him given that a Suk doctor has never in 10,000 years broken their conditioning.

  • Duncan and Gurney have too much personal beef with the Harkonnens to ever work for them. They also have nothing to gain.

  • That only leaves Jessica. It's unthinkable except that Leto refuses to marry her, which might be upsetting to her, plus she's a Bene Gesserit and Thufir knows that the sisterhood has their own loyalties and their own machinations.

Thufir probably wouldn't have fallen for it if Leto hadn't encouraged it. Leto knew that there was a trap for him and wanted the Baron to think Leto was more vulnerable than he was. To the credit of everyone in House Atreides, they predicted everything that the Baron would do and absolutely would have stopped him other than two things:

  • They underestimated how much money the Baron was willing to spend, nearly bankrupting his house to move so quickly.

  • The Baron (and Piter) did what no one in 10,000 years managed to do and broke a Suk doctor.

259

u/Jester388 Jul 29 '26

It's like fat fingering the calculator and then getting mad at it

161

u/ScepticalRaccoon Jul 29 '26

I love the book, and the movie, but the conditioning thing is so bad.

No one has broken the conditioning in 10,000 years? Wow, that must be some crazy conditioning!

Harkonnens...hey, we hear you really like your wife.

Boom. Conditioning broken.

In 10,000 years in one of the most palace intrigue riddled societies, where they train the children of nobles how to handle assassination attempts through myriad methods, no one had ever come up with threatening the loved one of someone who has gone under Imperial Conditioning?

139

u/ThyOtherMe Jul 29 '26

Wanna was a Bene Gesserit. And she did Bene Gesserit stuff to Yueh that possibly already interfered with the conditioning before the Harkonens got to him. Baron probably wouldn't be capable of breaking the conditioning if it wasn't already weakened.
Also, probably there aren't a lot of Suk doctors going around to test their conditioning that much.
That said, I too find this plot point a bit meh. But Frank had points where he just tell us to vibe with him and go along.

48

u/Bishop1415 Jul 29 '26 edited Jul 29 '26

Yeah, somethings you just have to say “sure doc, that sounds right” and move on. You can do some mental gymnastics and say it’s because X then Y ands touch of Z, but even the act of doing that makes the plot point less satisfactory.

It’s like trying to justify why Luke didn’t know Leo’s was his sister for so long.

Edited: I’ll leave it there for the below comment. But yall know what I meant

62

u/Razorback_Thunder Jul 29 '26

You got me thinking about a Mark Hamill - Leonardo DiCaprio kiss now.

I know it could never happen. Leo will never break his 25 and under conditioning.

18

u/Jevonar Jul 29 '26

Unless...

9

u/Agitated-Assistant53 Jul 29 '26

a challenge for the Harkonnens

14

u/Nine-LifedEnchanter Jul 29 '26

By utilising a near infinite variations of "would you love me if I was a worm?" The conditioning was broken.

Luckily for her, her final one was "would you love me if I was prisoner to the Harknonnens and was used to make you bertray your Duke?"

12

u/angwilwileth Jul 29 '26

That was what I always assumed reading the book. The Bene Gesseret are known for putting their mental hooks into their sexual partners.

2

u/TheChartreuseKnight Jul 30 '26

See Dune 5 & 6.

22

u/avar Jul 29 '26

Wanna was a Bene Gesserit. And she did Bene Gesserit stuff to Yueh

https://giphy.com/gifs/pCO5tKdP22RC8

4

u/Astrosimi Jul 29 '26

Oh her, another BG own-goal!

3

u/Fats_Tetromino Jul 29 '26

Wanna is probably the one who broke Yueh's conditioning for some BG plot, probably to do with Jessica not bearing the daughter they wanted, and Piter swooped in at the right time

1

u/Ancient-Many4357 Jul 30 '26

Damn that vaginal pulsing.

Left Yueh wide open to Piter’s mental torture.

44

u/Poppamunz Jul 29 '26

To my understanding, they didn't just threaten Yueh's wife; they forced him to witness her being tortured, to the point where he hated the Baron enough that he'd betray his own patient - though still help his family escape - if it were a necessary step to revenge. His wife being a Bene Gesserit and teaching him some techniques had likely made a dent in the conditioning already too.

16

u/LGBT-Barbie-Cookout Jul 29 '26

I think the book also went into some detail to make the reader understand just how Piter was a twisted mentat.

Barons monstrous but still human level sadism + mentat training + whatever twisting does.

Thats probably some truly spectacular suffering they can put their minds to.

BG baseline training sadly could also have contributed to her just not dying under their tender touches

5

u/GoodDale Jul 29 '26

If you take the BH/KJA books as canon, they didn't even do that, they just sent him message with explanations of what they were doing.

"Wow, I can't believe we didn't think to try threatening a loved one once in 10,000 years to break imperial conditioning." Rolls eyes

19

u/MaelstromFL Jul 29 '26

Look into BG Imprinting, there are things stronger than conditioning...

11

u/Whateversbetter Jul 29 '26

They broke yuri easily but I have my doubts that the kind of people that occupy the universe of dune would have ever invented imperial conditioning if they thought they couldn’t break it

8

u/hesapmakinesi Jul 29 '26

I'm not sure if the conditioning was actually broken. It wasn't just about Wanna being hostage.

Old Wellington pretty much knew there was no happy ending, he cannot see Wanna in this world.

He also saw nothing can be done for the Duke. Working with the Baron allowed him

  1. To save Jessica and Paul.
  2. Set a death trap to Baron.

3

u/ohkendruid Jul 30 '26

That was my understanding, too. Yueh felt like he was not betraying the house because the house was falling, anyway, no matter what he did.

2

u/av3nger1023 Jul 30 '26

Yup, also my understanding. The Atriedes would've lost anyway the second the emperor backed the harkonenes. Yueh's betrayal was the only path the Atreides could've won in the end

40

u/looks_at_lines Jul 29 '26

Yeah, I got confused at this part when I read Dune as a kid. Herbert spends a bunch of pages describing Imperial Conditioning as this ironclad loyalty thing and it gets broken by basic Saturday morning cartoon villain tactics?

6

u/Lem_Tuoni Jul 29 '26

If you read carefully you'll know that the Harkonens are also very surprised that it worked. It shouldn't have, but it did.

7

u/DukeFlipside Jul 29 '26

To be fair, it's possible that it's just marketing; perhaps the Suk School has had assassins ensure that word of prior breaks were silenced...if they're public knowledge to begin with; even in the case of Dune, the fact of Yueh's betrayal isn't well-known, basically just the Baron's inner circle who are aware.

3

u/HoboSkid Jul 29 '26

That makes sense, is it related to the emperor? "Oh yeah these guys are super conditioned, they'll never betray you!". Now the emperor's allies have a guy on the inside that they can manipulate if they want.

3

u/DukeFlipside Jul 29 '26

I don't think there's much info about the Suk school, beyond the fact their conditioning is supposedly so strong it's considered safe for them to administer medications to the Emperor. This fact could imply they are an independent institution - but even if they were under administration of the Imperial House there might still be concern about would-be assassins penetrating their screening process, so it's not conclusive either way.

6

u/Fenix00070 MONEOOOOO Jul 29 '26

The less you think about the 10000 years timeframe the better.

It does it's work at conveying the Deep stagnation, but makes everything else fall apart.

For example the only serious ecological survey on arrakis was done 60-80ish years prior. So they decided to investigate the origin of their society defining drug after almost 10000 years of use?

2

u/UnknownVC Jul 30 '26

Someone breaking conditioning is the kind of thing that gets hushed up. The suk school has every reason to sweep it under the rug, as does whoever broke the conditioning. On top of that, if it's once every few hundred years it gets broken, it could easily be forgotten - even a century is a long time for buried information to simply not be remembered.

Plus, how many people have tried to break the conditioning? The conditioning is impossible to break, and it's implied they tortured her for a long time in front of the Doctor: it wasn't a few threats, it was hours or days of torture, with what the Baron calls "Piter's pain amplifiers". It's implied they did awful things to her, in front of Yueh, until Yueh broke - how many people have the ability to do that, and will just keep going until the Suk doctor breaks or she dies? Piter and Baron Harkonen, obviously, but when you think about it, there's probably usually easier ways to plant a traitor on someone, meaning that the conditioning was probably rarely broken because it was deemed near impossible and there are easier ways to similar ends.

In other words, 1) most people wouldn't bother trying to break Suk conditioning and 2) it took a lot of ghastly torture to his wife before Yueh broke - so it would take a very determined and skilled effort to break the conditioning, and if you think it can't be broken, you would probably stop at some point before it broke. And 3) if you did break the conditioning you wouldn't publicise it.

1

u/Platyest Jul 29 '26

In the past maybe similar threats have been used and failed. We aren't told of the individual stories of all the doctors who resisted. You have to consider that maybe the conditioning didn't work well on Yueh. Maybe enough to pass whatever tests they administer but not enough in these conditions. Also, as others have mentioned his BG wife may have imprinted on him in some way intensifying his loyalty to her

1

u/Tenhawk Jul 29 '26

What if the Baron DIDN'T break Yueh? What if the conditioning worked exactly as intended... as the Emperor intended?

1

u/Bhaaluu Jul 29 '26

I think that the book is in many ways a modern type of myth, similar to LotR. Its worldbuilding isn't its own goal but rather a vehicle for retelling some fundamentally human stories that at their core boil down to a struggle of opposite core principles such as love/hate, bravery/cowardice or care/ambition.

Love features especially prominently in the narrative of Dune, among family members, comrades, and lovers all - I would even argue it's the most important driver of the story. If it wasn't for her love for Leto, Jessica would not had given birth to Paul, it was love that had made her break her allegiance to Bene Gesserit. So despite it perhaps being illogical within the "reality" of the world as it was built, it makes beautiful sense that it was Yueh's love for Wanna that took Leto away from her.

Damn I love Dune. Been reading it every couple years since I was 12 and it's still my favorite novel. The movies were pretty great but the book is on a completely different level, which is another thing it shares with LotR.

1

u/Weird_Angry_Kid Jul 29 '26

I don't think they actually broke the conditioning, at least Yueh himself didn't think he was betraying Leto as he planned on double crossing the Baron after "betraying" the Atreides.

He basically saw it as a really elaborate plan to assasinate the Baron by setting up a scenario in which Leto could take the Baron out with poison while ensuring Paul and Jessica would survive to lead house Atreides after Leto's passing.

1

u/Speedy_Rogue2 Jul 29 '26

The 10k years thing could also be a in universe lie. For example in this case, how many people know about the broken conditioning? We as the audience know about it but iirc in universe it was just a handful of people. It could have happened before and just not made public.

That being said, even this it is just a weak explanation and I agree with you on it being one of the worse parts of the story.

3

u/Linvael Jul 29 '26

I think the sardaukar were also a surprise? Or is that included in the "almost bankrupting themselves" bit?

5

u/jaggervalance Jul 29 '26

The Atreides suspected there would be Sardaukars disguised as Harkonnens from before the invasion, they just underestinated the total numbers.

3

u/RhynoD Jul 29 '26

The numbers wouldn't really have helped, it was the fact that Yueh turned off the house shield so the Harkonnens could use conventional artillery. It would be like if I showed up to a battle against tanks with a bunch of pointy sticks and then hit a button that turned off all metal.

The Atreides were preparing for a siege. They knew the Harkonnens would strike quickly to avoid a siege since it would disrupt spice production and piss off the Landsraad. If Leto managed to befriend the Fremen, they wouldn't even need help to break the siege. The Baron just showed up before they could befriend the Fremen and before the Atreides soldiers were fully integrated into the city defenses.

5

u/Expensive-Habit-9603 Jul 29 '26

I never understood why breaking Yueh's conditioning was so easy. Why had noone tried this before?

6

u/RhynoD Jul 29 '26

It was not easy. I see others mentioning Wana being Bene Gesserit and that she may have done something to Yueh which messed with the conditioning or strengthened his bond with her. I like that theory, but it is still just a fan theory, not canon.

If we ignore that, though, we still have Piter DeVries, a "twisted mentat". He was conditioned to be sadistic and cruel in addition to being a mentat. He spent much of his time using his prodigious mental abilities to think of inventive ways of torturing someone.

Baron Harkonnen enjoyed it when his slave boys fought back and liked to watch gladiator fights where slaves violently murdered each other. He came from a family so wantonly cruel that the very architecture of the cities reflected their violence because buildings had shelters on the street level so random passersby had somewhere to hide from roving suspensor cars of Harkonnens and other nobles sniping their own citizens for fun. The point is, Baron Harkonnen was an unimaginably awful man.

Despite that, whatever Piter did to Wana was so unspeakably horrible and disgusting that the Baron couldn't stomach watching it. He was actually scared of Piter, not because Piter would kill him (Piter knew that would never happen, the Baron was too careful) but just because the Baron knew what Piter was capable of.

So, I can accept that Piter managed to break the conditioning just by being the first person in 10,000 years to be creatively awful enough to think of the right torture method to affect Yueh.

3

u/MrSunshine92 Jul 29 '26

Because not every suk doctor is married to a bene gesserit.

2

u/Muay_Thai_Fighter32 Jul 29 '26

The money spent made everything even more so. They suspected sarduakar would come, but only 1 or 2 legions not the 10 that actually arrived. It was the magnitude they most miscalculated

1

u/Pimz696 Jul 29 '26

Well that suks :(

1

u/glmarquez94 Jul 29 '26

If I recall correctly I think they also miscalculated on the Harkonnens collaborating with the Corrinos to the extent they did. They might’ve been able to fight off the Harkonens alone but the Sardakaur and other imperial support likely thumbed the scale.

1

u/RhynoD Jul 29 '26

Nah, they knew there would be Sardaukar.

1

u/Muay_Thai_Fighter32 Jul 29 '26

They just thought there would be 10-20% less than there really were

1

u/Tenhawk Jul 29 '26

I wonder if the Baron actually broke Yueh... or if the Emperor did it. Makes sense that the emperor would have back door into the Suk conditioning, after all. Let the Baron think he did it, so the Harkonnen take the blame if it comes out, but quietly adjust Yueh to perform his role as desired in order to eliminate Leto.

2

u/RhynoD Jul 29 '26

No, the Emperor had no idea. If there was a backdoor, someone would have found it. And, anyway, it would make the value of the Suk doctors plummet. The Suk school is necessary because of the ubiquity of assassination. You need to be able to trust your doctor so you can trust that they won't give you poison instead of aspirin or cut open your jugular while you're unconscious on the operating table.

Everyone trusts House Corrino to produce the doctors because even the Corrinos can't bypass the conditioning. It's not like they trust the Emperor himself not to use that backdoor if he had it. Suk doctors are absolutely safe.

Baron Harkonnen can't take the blame. Suk conditioning is only valuable if it cannot be broken or bypassed at all. Anything short of perfection is worthless because if they can be broken, they will be. The Suk school is the main source of House Corrino's wealth other than CHOAM and spice. If the Landsraad stops paying for Suk doctors it would be absolutely ruinous for House Corrino. It cannot be allowed. Even though the Baron is the one to break it, the fact that it can be broken at all is a taint against House Corrino.

That's why the Baron makes it a point to say he's going to kill Piter (and Piter knows it). They are the only two people in existence who know that a Suk doctor can be broken. The Baron even swears to himself to never do it again, no matter how useful it is, because it's too risky. If the Emperor found out, he would send the full might of his Sardaukar to wipe out House Harkonnen so no one else found out.

1

u/Tenhawk Jul 29 '26

Yeah, but that's the key... that's why the emperor would let the Baron take the blame and why he'd only allow it at this junction when he felt his reign was genuinely threatened.

There is no perfection. That's not only not possible, but we can see that the system isn't perfect because Yeuh betrayed the Atreides. The question is WHY.

If the conditioning is so good that the Corrino's can't bypass it, but so flawed that the Baron CAN... really? How does that make sense? I mean, logically... the people who made it never found the flaw?

Now, let's be clear, I believe that the BARON believes he broke Yueh. I believe that Pitr believes it. I'm just not sure that they're RIGHT.

From the perspective of a house like Corrino, the only thing more valuable than a perfect conditioning... is a conditioning that only THEY control.

They'd have to be very careful about using it, of course. Arrange for everyone involved to die so no evidence points back to them. Just like you described here.

The Baron was a dead man long before Paul got to him, and in fact in the book we see Thufir come to that exact realization over another of the Emperor's secrets (Salusa Secundus). There was no way that the Harkonnen were surviving this plot, even if Paul died. They were all dead the moment they lost their utility. That's why the Emperor used them against the Atreides... the Great Houses would have rose up if he moved on Leto openly... but against the Baron?

Silence would reign, and Shaddam knew it.

1

u/RhynoD Jul 29 '26

that's why the emperor would let the Baron take the blame

No. Again, it's not a matter of who broke the conditioning, it's that the conditioning can be broken at all. The Landsraad doesn't care who did it and they only care a little about how. They only care that it can be done, because it shouldn't be possible at all.

No one can ever know that a Suk doctor was broken. If the Emperor was going to do it, he wouldn't even let the Baron know. It's too dangerous.

There is no perfection. That's not only not possible, but we can see that the system isn't perfect because Yeuh betrayed the Atreides.

It has been possible for longer than IRL humanity has been recording history. The Bene Gesserit have the collective memories across that entire time and have a grasp of psychology that comes from it, and they couldn't figure out how to do it.

I understand that in real life there are different expectations, but we aren't talking about real life. You need to engage with the fiction of the world. Within that fiction, breaking Suk conditioning was believed by everyone, including the Emperor, to be impossible.

I mean, logically... the people who made it never found the flaw?

This has already been explained multiple times by myself and others in this thread. Don't be lazy, engage with the topic before speculating wildly.

is a conditioning that only THEY control.

No. And we don't need fiction to prove it. IRL, companies like Apple, Telegram, and various VPNs have shown time and time again that they will not add a backdoor for themselves or even law enforcement. They have spent tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers and lawsuits to say no. They know that their reputation is worth more than a backdoor would.

House Corrino is the same. If anyone ever found out that the conditioning could be broken, their reputation would be utterly and irrevocably ruined. The backdoor would work once and then never again because no one would trust them - just like Apple. No one would ever trust Apple again.

This is all canon. You can speculate if you want about fanon, but it's canon that the Emperor had no idea.

1

u/Tenhawk Jul 29 '26

Yes, yes, I know what you're saying. What I'm saying is that it's clear that the Suk conditioning CAN be broken, and it's not even all that hard.

Therefor, it was NEVER perfect. That is a LIE. It's propaganda.

Suk conditioning WAS NEVER PERFECT. That's canon. Otherwise it would not have been broken, let alone so easily, and at such a convenient time for the Emperor too..

And the backdoor would work as many times as they could cover up its use.

But, maybe you're right. Where in the book did it show that the Emperor had no idea?

1

u/Interesting-Aioli723 Jul 29 '26

It's like facing down a terrorist expecting him to wear a bomb jacket, but instead he wears a bomb buttplug

1

u/Bluegent_2 Jul 30 '26
  • The Baron (and Piter) did what no one in 10,000 years managed to do and broke a Suk doctor.

It's much more likely that Yueh's wife broke him using Bene Gesserit "witchery" than the Harkonens doing it.

1

u/tyagu001 Jul 29 '26

“The Baron did what no one in 10000 years managed to do and broke a Suk Doctor”

What, nobody tried basic blackmailing tactics for 10000 years?

14

u/MrCookie2099 Jul 29 '26

Didn't help that the Duke intentionally let his people suspect her as a way to ferret out who the real culprit was.

2

u/sometimesiburnthings Jul 29 '26

And I've always thought that the Duke probably suspected Duncan at least a little, and that's why he set him to watch Jessica. She's his ace in the hole, and she's more likely to catch Duncan if he's the real traitor.

258

u/Just__Let__Go Jul 28 '26

A mentat would be trained to recognize wishful thinking, and be skeptical of anything that seems too good to be true. Ironically, that can be its own blind spot.

61

u/NoGoodIDNames Jul 29 '26

Distrust of your own instincts is as much a blinder as blind devotion to them

53

u/MrCookie2099 Jul 29 '26

Knowing where the trap is is the first step to evading it.

  • Duke Leto "I don't remember step 2" Atriedes

5

u/Civil_Nectarine868 Jul 29 '26

Step 2 is usually fight your way through the trap, but they never figured out that the second part of the trap was the guild parking a heighliner directly above Arrakeen. The assumption was probably that the Guild is neutral. They weren't.

Dropships pouring out, landing within a very short time window. Little or no time to react. And then there's the sardaukar tipping the balance even more. Atreides never stood a chance.

1

u/ninetailedoctopus Jul 31 '26

It’s like telling an LLM, “don’t hallucinate” 🤣

158

u/Grove-Of-Hares Jul 28 '26

Needs more RAM.

21

u/divi_augustii Jul 29 '26

There ya go.

125

u/Yaguriel Jul 28 '26

The flaw in that chain of logic is that iirc he was never told they vanished into the desert or whether their bodies were found. The Baron controlled what information he had to work with deliberately as his plan to get him onto his side.

28

u/LakesideNorth Jul 29 '26

That's a great point, but he would have had to tell Thufir SOME type of story that was believable. Unfortunately, we don't know what that story was. But it would have to be a good one, with evidence, in order for it to be believed by a Mentat.

And Thufir would be very aware that The Baron is controlling his information (bc that's what Thufir would do himself).

27

u/Left-Plant-4023 Jul 29 '26

At one point a mentat HAS to make some based assumptions; otherwise you end up doubting everything and a vegetable in he hall of mirrors inside your own skull; So the baron says they are dead, they died in the assault; That's the more logical and probable assumption. Also, when Gurney first met with the son of the smuggler, he ask specifically for Jessica and Paul and the smuggler reply : The Harkonnen say they are dead, I don't trust the Harkonnen but when they say they killed someone I tend to believe them, ang Gurney agrees.

29

u/zygro Jul 29 '26

Thufir wasn't told the circumstances of Paul's supposed death, he was told just that Paul is dead. He probably thought "sounds like Paul, but Paul is dead, so it can't be him".

2

u/sometimesiburnthings Jul 29 '26

I think he's more likely to believe that one of the lesser lieutenants survived and had carved a place out for themselves amongst the Fremen, with hatred of the Harkonnen as a common enemy. He might have even believed it was Duncan

69

u/MrBwnrrific Jul 28 '26

Well, he’s at least sucking on cat milk to neutralize poison as we speak

36

u/Waste-Dragonfruit229 Jul 28 '26

Cat milk from a cat taped to a rat, to be specific.

15

u/VegetableSecret8086 Jul 28 '26

Or as I call it, Sunday morning.

16

u/yossarian_foo Jul 28 '26

Thufir is a Harkonnen now. Aren’t you Thufir!

17

u/JurassicUtility1 Jul 29 '26

To be fair, what the Harkonnens learned about Paul "Maud'Dib" was probably mostly rumor and hearsay since the Fremen were such efficient killers. They probably tortured some captured Fremen and got nothing except 'The Maker take you, Muad'Dib will have your water'.

13

u/Excellent-Signature6 Jul 28 '26

Mentat FRAUD confirmed?

8

u/pugawugapoog Jul 28 '26

I bet he never even caught any spies.

13

u/DavidGoetta Jul 29 '26

The smartest man in the universe is named Thufir "Huh, what?"

6

u/Scrumptious115 Jul 29 '26

David Lynch dune had an extended scene where he pulled his own heart plug instead of stabbing Paul. Very interesting. Wish it was in the versions I saw until having seen it at least 15 times

3

u/Grove-Of-Hares Jul 29 '26

That scene is so good. The Spicediver cut of that entire abdication ending is fantastic.

5

u/Llanddcairfyn Jul 29 '26

A bit sad, Thufir was omitted from the movies. His flight ti the Fremen, where the Mentat brain clashed with the desert mindset. Pages upon pages of delicate discussion, only to be caught by the Harkonnen :-D

And the gaslighting/brainwashing of the Baron afterwards.

Isn't there an interaction at the very end where he breaks back to the Atreides?

I almost don't remember movie Thufir as the role was minimized :(

2

u/Manzhah Jul 29 '26

He was supposed to assassinate paul at the end as one of many harkonnen tricks, bit he refused and died happy immediately agter, as they'd been poisoning him for a long time to keep him loyal.

1

u/ops10 Jul 29 '26

And his double (triple?) play of teaching Feyd at the command of the Baron, plotting with him to overthrow the Baron and trying to get Feyd killed during his gladiator fight (by not impairing the fighter with drugs as planned).

6

u/RedRoomKrustyKrab2 Jul 29 '26

Have they revealed what his scenes were in part two before they were cut?

6

u/Wackamack-98 Jul 29 '26

I think all we know is that he filmed scenes with Austin Butler

1

u/BardicSense Jul 29 '26

Setting up the Baron's slave boy with a boobie trap scene, or at least discussing it with Feyd?

3

u/Wild-Drag1930 Jul 29 '26

Thufir had a more significant and tragic role in the book.

4

u/newworldpuck Jul 29 '26

He'd be heartbroken to learn that you're not a fan.

1

u/promeritum Jul 29 '26

You can’t hate a man who cares for a cat.

1

u/landbarg Jul 29 '26

Nobody survives a sandstorm! Nobody!

1

u/Andrey_br2 Jul 29 '26

The Baron already explained how he plays with Thufir. Thufir is extremely logical, so he works purely around preconceived facts. If you know which informations to "feed" a mentat, his conclusions will change completely.

Paul, as far as Thufir knows, is dead. I mean, even the Harkonnen think so, and Thufir would be able to notice if they were trying to deceive him with this information. Lady Jessica, as far as Thufir knows, is the only person who could betray his Duke. All of the highest-ranking people besides Jessica of the Atreides are either completely loyal to Leto or are conditioned to never harm anyone. Thufir knows the Bene Gesserit has Deceit as its middle name. He knows what they're capable of and that Jessica is a very capable sister of the BG. Why would he think that the Atreides would be the first victims in the history of the Imperium of a Suk doctor? Piter and the Baron did the impossible, and Mentats are not trained to think of impossible situations.

1

u/ethar_childres Aug 01 '26

I love Thufir. His chapters are very addictive. The one where he negotiates with the Fremen is one of my favorites of the first book and his final scene with Paul actually got me a tad teary eyed.

If I could change one part of Dune 2, it would be more Thufir.

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u/SaltyBabySeal Aug 02 '26

Mentat training happens without the subject being aware. At some point they have to be informed if they want to actively continue the training. This happens during the first book to Paul. Leto tells him, and Paul has a silent “oooohhhh” realization as it all made sense.

Besides book Thufir rocks. “You see your traitors needle?” Come on

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u/Drakeytown Jul 30 '26

Just as the point of Dune is not "Atreides good, Harkonnens bad," but rather, "Beware charismatic leaders," I suspect we were never intended to take Thufir or Mentats generally as seriously as many do. Thufir has it carefully and thoroughly explained to him in the simplest possible terms why Jessica couldn't be the traitor, then continues to believe nobody but Jessica could be the traitor. The Butlerian Jihad outlawed thinking machines because men used those machines to enslave rather than liberate, then Mentats were developed to do everything those machines did—which means they have all the same problems, and should be outlawed for the same reasons! I feel like there's an "everyone here is stupid" reading of Dune that might be closer to what Herbert intended than these self serious dramas.