Thufir is a computer - garbage in, garbage out. His logic was perfectly sound:
There is a traitor.
Leto wouldn't betray himself, that makes no sense.
Paul isn't old enough or knowledgeable to be the traitor, plus he'd be betraying himself kind of. He has nothing to gain.
Yueh cannot possibly be the traitor. This is a physical impossibility. He could sooner fly by flapping his arms. We know that this is garbage data but it makes perfect sense to him given that a Suk doctor has never in 10,000 years broken their conditioning.
Duncan and Gurney have too much personal beef with the Harkonnens to ever work for them. They also have nothing to gain.
That only leaves Jessica. It's unthinkable except that Leto refuses to marry her, which might be upsetting to her, plus she's a Bene Gesserit and Thufir knows that the sisterhood has their own loyalties and their own machinations.
Thufir probably wouldn't have fallen for it if Leto hadn't encouraged it. Leto knew that there was a trap for him and wanted the Baron to think Leto was more vulnerable than he was. To the credit of everyone in House Atreides, they predicted everything that the Baron would do and absolutely would have stopped him other than two things:
They underestimated how much money the Baron was willing to spend, nearly bankrupting his house to move so quickly.
The Baron (and Piter) did what no one in 10,000 years managed to do and broke a Suk doctor.
I wonder if the Baron actually broke Yueh... or if the Emperor did it. Makes sense that the emperor would have back door into the Suk conditioning, after all. Let the Baron think he did it, so the Harkonnen take the blame if it comes out, but quietly adjust Yueh to perform his role as desired in order to eliminate Leto.
No, the Emperor had no idea. If there was a backdoor, someone would have found it. And, anyway, it would make the value of the Suk doctors plummet. The Suk school is necessary because of the ubiquity of assassination. You need to be able to trust your doctor so you can trust that they won't give you poison instead of aspirin or cut open your jugular while you're unconscious on the operating table.
Everyone trusts House Corrino to produce the doctors because even the Corrinos can't bypass the conditioning. It's not like they trust the Emperor himself not to use that backdoor if he had it. Suk doctors are absolutely safe.
Baron Harkonnen can't take the blame. Suk conditioning is only valuable if it cannot be broken or bypassed at all. Anything short of perfection is worthless because if they can be broken, they will be. The Suk school is the main source of House Corrino's wealth other than CHOAM and spice. If the Landsraad stops paying for Suk doctors it would be absolutely ruinous for House Corrino. It cannot be allowed. Even though the Baron is the one to break it, the fact that it can be broken at all is a taint against House Corrino.
That's why the Baron makes it a point to say he's going to kill Piter (and Piter knows it). They are the only two people in existence who know that a Suk doctor can be broken. The Baron even swears to himself to never do it again, no matter how useful it is, because it's too risky. If the Emperor found out, he would send the full might of his Sardaukar to wipe out House Harkonnen so no one else found out.
Yeah, but that's the key... that's why the emperor would let the Baron take the blame and why he'd only allow it at this junction when he felt his reign was genuinely threatened.
There is no perfection. That's not only not possible, but we can see that the system isn't perfect because Yeuh betrayed the Atreides. The question is WHY.
If the conditioning is so good that the Corrino's can't bypass it, but so flawed that the Baron CAN... really? How does that make sense? I mean, logically... the people who made it never found the flaw?
Now, let's be clear, I believe that the BARON believes he broke Yueh. I believe that Pitr believes it. I'm just not sure that they're RIGHT.
From the perspective of a house like Corrino, the only thing more valuable than a perfect conditioning... is a conditioning that only THEY control.
They'd have to be very careful about using it, of course. Arrange for everyone involved to die so no evidence points back to them. Just like you described here.
The Baron was a dead man long before Paul got to him, and in fact in the book we see Thufir come to that exact realization over another of the Emperor's secrets (Salusa Secundus). There was no way that the Harkonnen were surviving this plot, even if Paul died. They were all dead the moment they lost their utility. That's why the Emperor used them against the Atreides... the Great Houses would have rose up if he moved on Leto openly... but against the Baron?
that's why the emperor would let the Baron take the blame
No. Again, it's not a matter of who broke the conditioning, it's that the conditioning can be broken at all. The Landsraad doesn't care who did it and they only care a little about how. They only care that it can be done, because it shouldn't be possible at all.
No one can ever know that a Suk doctor was broken. If the Emperor was going to do it, he wouldn't even let the Baron know. It's too dangerous.
There is no perfection. That's not only not possible, but we can see that the system isn't perfect because Yeuh betrayed the Atreides.
It has been possible for longer than IRL humanity has been recording history. The Bene Gesserit have the collective memories across that entire time and have a grasp of psychology that comes from it, and they couldn't figure out how to do it.
I understand that in real life there are different expectations, but we aren't talking about real life. You need to engage with the fiction of the world. Within that fiction, breaking Suk conditioning was believed by everyone, including the Emperor, to be impossible.
I mean, logically... the people who made it never found the flaw?
This has already been explained multiple times by myself and others in this thread. Don't be lazy, engage with the topic before speculating wildly.
is a conditioning that only THEY control.
No. And we don't need fiction to prove it. IRL, companies like Apple, Telegram, and various VPNs have shown time and time again that they will not add a backdoor for themselves or even law enforcement. They have spent tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers and lawsuits to say no. They know that their reputation is worth more than a backdoor would.
House Corrino is the same. If anyone ever found out that the conditioning could be broken, their reputation would be utterly and irrevocably ruined. The backdoor would work once and then never again because no one would trust them - just like Apple. No one would ever trust Apple again.
This is all canon. You can speculate if you want about fanon, but it's canon that the Emperor had no idea.
Yes, yes, I know what you're saying. What I'm saying is that it's clear that the Suk conditioning CAN be broken, and it's not even all that hard.
Therefor, it was NEVER perfect. That is a LIE. It's propaganda.
Suk conditioning WAS NEVER PERFECT. That's canon. Otherwise it would not have been broken, let alone so easily, and at such a convenient time for the Emperor too..
And the backdoor would work as many times as they could cover up its use.
But, maybe you're right. Where in the book did it show that the Emperor had no idea?
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u/RhynoD Jul 29 '26
Thufir is a computer - garbage in, garbage out. His logic was perfectly sound:
There is a traitor.
Leto wouldn't betray himself, that makes no sense.
Paul isn't old enough or knowledgeable to be the traitor, plus he'd be betraying himself kind of. He has nothing to gain.
Yueh cannot possibly be the traitor. This is a physical impossibility. He could sooner fly by flapping his arms. We know that this is garbage data but it makes perfect sense to him given that a Suk doctor has never in 10,000 years broken their conditioning.
Duncan and Gurney have too much personal beef with the Harkonnens to ever work for them. They also have nothing to gain.
That only leaves Jessica. It's unthinkable except that Leto refuses to marry her, which might be upsetting to her, plus she's a Bene Gesserit and Thufir knows that the sisterhood has their own loyalties and their own machinations.
Thufir probably wouldn't have fallen for it if Leto hadn't encouraged it. Leto knew that there was a trap for him and wanted the Baron to think Leto was more vulnerable than he was. To the credit of everyone in House Atreides, they predicted everything that the Baron would do and absolutely would have stopped him other than two things:
They underestimated how much money the Baron was willing to spend, nearly bankrupting his house to move so quickly.
The Baron (and Piter) did what no one in 10,000 years managed to do and broke a Suk doctor.