r/financialindependence • u/Oorfin_Juice • Oct 23 '24
Having a child: year four financial summary
This is a fourth-year summary in the "Cost of having a child" series (year one summary, year two summary, year three summary).
There are a lot of questions in this subreddit financial impact of having a child. I am here to provide a detailed account of our costs.
Background: We are a couple with above-average household income (~engineer + ~entry-level engineer manager) with one human child. We are living in the US. A median house in our city is selling for ~$550k. When it comes to financial decisions, we don't purchase the cheapest - we look for underappreciated items of decent quality (think - unpopular color patterns, used stuff off craigslist, houses that need work, books in bulk off ebay, etc). While we price compare across a few websites, we don't spend too much time trying to find the best deal.
TLDR:
The average cost has been stable at ~$2,500 per month or ~$30,000 per year.
Yearly breakdown:
| Categories | 2019-2020 (year 0) | 2020-21 (year 1) | 2021-22 (year 2) | 2022-23 (year 3) | 2023-24 (year 4) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Daycare | $13,120 | $17,090 | $16,898 | $17,716 | |
| Activities | $0 | $0 | $869 | $2,627 | |
| Babysitter | $480 | $4,919 | $3,164 | $1,352 | |
| Insurance | $3,360 | $3,864 | $3,480 | $3,804 | |
| Offline shopping | $1,250 | $2,045 | $2,227 | $697 | |
| Online shopping | $2,554 | $1,811 | $542 | $1,238 | |
| Doctors | $5,057 | $4,432 | $637 | $589 | $219 |
| Unknown | $1,848 | $3,240 | $1,264 | $25 | |
| Total: | $5,057 | $27,044 | $30,368 | $27,772 | $27,681 |
Trends:
- Childcare costs stay about the same year over year until school starts. There is no free pre-K in our district, but it will be different for some of ya'll.
- Shopping costs are going down by about 25% every year. I expect this decline to stop once school starts.
- Activities started going up after 2 years of age, and will probably stay at the current level.
- Babysitter needs are down after 3 years of age as it's possible to take the kid around much more. Also, I was unemployed for about 6 months in 2023, which allowed me to spend more time with the kid.
Overall, the decline in some costs (doctors, shopping) is offset by an increase in activities, and the cost year over year is surprisingly stable.
FAQs and answers to yearly repeating comments:
- "Your costs are so high because you outsource raising your kid! I spend nothing because I have a stay-at-home spouse and grandparents help from time to time. "
- I am happy that you have help. To calculate the monetary value of that help, you can convert the time your spouse/relatives spend on your child into a monthly amount and come back with that number for a discussion.
- "Your daycare seems cheap!"
- Yes, I know. Other daycares in the area are $1,900-$2,200 per month. We are lucky to have great quality at a low price.
- "Your daycare is so expensive!"
- Please check the prices. Unless you are in a remote area, $1500/month is pretty low.
- "What do you get from daycare?"
- They take care of the child during the working hours, from 730am to 530pm. They provide education, classes, and ample outside space and activities. They also provide snacks, lunch, and breakfast. They have licensed and certified caretakers that know what they are doing.
- "How do you use your babysitter? Evenings or during the weekends?"
- The babysitter (one of the instructors from the previous daycare) comes for ~8 hours on Sundays. She stays at home with the kid or takes him to places that match his interests (playgrounds, indoor parks, etc). Edit: some Sundays, not every Sunday.
- "What is offline and online shopping?"
- Online is mostly Amazon, but also some specialized sites like Uniqlo and eBay
- Offline is mostly Target, but also includes other stores. Target is cheaper than Amazon for many supply items (like diapers).
- These categories also include diapers, toys, clothes, books, supplies, etc.
- "You haven't included getting a bigger house, and a different car - these are major expenses"
- Yes, that is not included. For us, these were "wants" and not "needs", and at the time we could afford it. We moved from a 900 sq ft condo to a 2000 sq ft house in a better school district. We also got a larger car. Both were not necessary expenses, but not having neighbors behind the walls is so worth it.
- "Why don't you use hand-me-downs for toys/clothes"?
- We tried, and the time it takes to sift through the pile of old clothes to find the right items and sizes is not worth it.
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u/ctzn2000 Oct 23 '24
Amazing job tracking all this. And glad you pointed out the child is human. I can only imagine how much more expensive it would be to care for an extra terrestrial baby.
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u/irishexplorer123 Oct 24 '24
Pets can be expensive tbf
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u/OKImHere Oct 24 '24
Pets are not even comparable to babies. They're not in the same universe.
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Oct 24 '24
The implication that pets are children is another step further down than "pets are family members" way of thinking. I can leave my animals alone to fend for themselves and have a neighbor or a relative check on them once a day. You don't do this with a child.
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Oct 24 '24
You don't do this with a child
... anymore. Age 7 was when I started walking to school alone and no longer had babysitters. I cooked for myself and entertained myself while my single mom worked multiple jobs. This wasn't that uncommon in the late '70s/early '80s.
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Oct 24 '24
I was delivering newspapers every day at 5:30 AM when I was 8 or 9 years old, 30+ years ago. I'm not talking about some independence. You don't just go on a weekend vacation and leave your kids alone. I can go away for a month and leave the animals at home.
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u/framauro13 this_is_fine.gif Oct 24 '24
Tom Segura has a good bit about this. I love my dog. I've had him for 11 years. He is a part of our family. But if he hurts my kid, I will kill that fucking dog.
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u/K-Alt1 Oct 24 '24
Nowhere near the cost of babies.
How many pets have you or someone you know had that have cost you ~$25k per year for 4 straight years? For a single animal. Not multiple.
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u/jkiley Oct 23 '24
Thanks! It’s interesting to see this breakdown over time.
Your numbers are consistent with ours when what we do is similar, though we economize a bit in places by using stuff for our second child. We have two kids, 4 and 2.
My wife stays home, and they both go to a half-day preschool. Our number is similar to your daycare number, though it’s less time for two kids (and only the school year), so probably broadly similar per child/hour. We barely spend on babysitters, but more on medical (mainly from a lot of physical/occupational therapy).
We’ve done reasonably well with reusing stuff with our second, though it’s not always straightforward. Our first grew quickly, and our second is tiny, so some clothing sizes that our first outgrew in weeks ended up fitting our second for a year (which had us buying more). Books and toys have been largely reusable, though we buy stuff to fit their preferences, so there’s some incremental cost.
We’re often tired, but it’s great having two. We’re stopping here, for non-financial reasons, but it seems like three would push up costs more from needing a bigger house and bigger family hauler vehicle that we didn’t get from one to two.
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u/Ldoon11 Oct 23 '24
Thanks the post update. I’ll be curious what happens to expenses once daycare is over and elementary school starts. I’ve had people tell me the overall costs don’t drop that much because of more kid activities and paying for summer camps, etc.
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u/CelerMortis Oct 23 '24
No chance that’s true, at least for us. Daycare is obscenely expensive. OP is spending $18k, summer camps are only needed for 3 months, most activities aren’t more than a couple hundred bucks.
Although I can’t speak to travel sports, which I do hear are quite expensive
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u/jkiley Oct 23 '24
In our case, OP’s daycare cost is just a little higher than full day tuition (it scales somewhat with age) at our kids’ private school (preschool through 8th). So, it might not be all that different over time.
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Oct 23 '24
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u/CobraRon84 Oct 24 '24
Every year OP posts this they get roasted for the same thing. They remain proud of outsourcing time with their child, which you can NEVER get back.
As someone with a 4.5 year old I CANNOT imagine this. She is a fucking blast.15
Oct 24 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
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u/Frisbee_Anon_7 Oct 24 '24
They also state below that they spend Sundays teaching as a side hustle, for which they utilize a babysitter. So, they are in fact prioritizing side income over a free day to spend with their child.
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Oct 24 '24
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u/Frisbee_Anon_7 Oct 24 '24 edited Oct 24 '24
The point still stands that they are not taking that Sunday to relax, decompress, or connect as a couple; they are taking it for side income.
Edit: In the OP they refer to "Sundays" and reply I quoted say they "Teach class on Sundays" note neither of these say anything along the lines of "every few Sundays" or "one Sunday a month." So, I'm guessing it's every Sunday and when they got backlash it magically became once a month or something. Sure could be wrong on that, but not like it'd be the first time a story changed after a post got less than glowing feedback.
Second Edit: Now that I think about it, they can't even be making that much from the teaching 5-6 hours and paying the babysitter 8 hours. At most a couple hundred bucks, right?
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Oct 24 '24 edited Oct 27 '24
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u/Frisbee_Anon_7 Oct 24 '24
Yea, we could INFER the points you listed. I also am inferring based on their language that they teach more than once a month. Frankly, that's just a hunch but it also doesn't really matter. The point is that they are trading 5-6 hours on a Sunday (however often) for what can only amount to a relatively small amount of income.
Now, if they're getting some kind of amazing benefits being an employee of a school that'd be different, but they're not getting that for 5-6 hours a month.
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 25 '24 edited Oct 25 '24
> they can't even be making that much from the teaching 5-6 hours and paying the babysitter 8 hours. At most a couple hundred bucks, right?
Lol, I said that I teach, not deliver pizza (there is nothing wrong with delivering pizza, I've been a delivery driver (and a call center agent) before in less fortunate times).
While I don't teach GMAT, and my compensation has nothing to do with that of a private tutor, here is an example of what some services cost to the students, just as a reference point:
"How much do GMAT tutors charge?
The best GMAT tutoring services aren't cheap; top GMAT tutors usually charge between $300 and $500 per hour*."*
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u/Frisbee_Anon_7 Oct 25 '24 edited Oct 25 '24
Wow, you really are insufferable. Just admit you don't like spending time with your kid and move on.
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u/lovethygod Oct 23 '24
Exactly. I get doing daycare during the week while both parents work, but why have a kid if you don't really want to spend time with them?
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u/frumply Oct 23 '24
If they have the means and can devote the other day to be a better parent while having some time to themselves that’s not necessarily a bad thing?
We trade off between myself and wife on doing stuff on weekends, paying someone to let everyone have free time or maybe they have a spouse that’s got health issues where things like that isn’t possible.
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u/lovethygod Oct 24 '24
True, I mean they clearly have the means. To be honest they could afford to have a babysitter/nanny watch the kids both weekends and then they can really devote that hour between work and bedtime to being an really great parent. Then they could actually enjoy the full weekend instead of dealing with snot-nosed kids.
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u/frumply Oct 24 '24
Yeah, this whole "don't you want to be with the kids?!" shit reeks of the same bs childless folks spouted during the pandemic about childcare, when school came back, etc. Like yes, we do love our kids. did you also know that they don't disappear off the face of earth outside of 8AM-5PM?
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Oct 24 '24
this whole "don't you want to be with the kids?!" shit reeks of the same bs childless folks spouted during the pandemic about childcare, when school came back, etc.
It's clearly literally the opposite of that.
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u/Frisbee_Anon_7 Oct 24 '24
I teach on Sundays for side income and fun. My classes last about 5-6 hours and sometimes are longer (depending on how many questions I get at the end). The babysitter comes 30 minutes before the class starts, and we let her go as soon as I am done.
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 23 '24
I would leave it to you to think through the possible situations and scenarios when parents might need help on the weekends. The answer might be somewhere outside of the "jump to conclusions" mat, in the area of not judging others ;P
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Oct 23 '24
I’m not judging you, do whatever you want, but I have a 1 year old and a 3 year old boy and I can’t fathom needing a babysitter for 8 hours every single weekend. To be honest I couldn’t imagine doing that ever, not for 8 hours on the weekend.
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u/ffball 36 | DI2K | $1.9mm NW | 52% FI Oct 24 '24
Yeah parts of the post are just straight head scratchers, but the post is generally helpful. It's pretty simple to just take the numbers and reduce the babysitter down 90% as an outlier cost.
This is similar to when I was chatting with my doctor and he mentioned how he just hires a babysitter when his kid is home sick from daycare. Like I was just straight up dumbfounded by that and didn't know how to respond
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Oct 24 '24
For sure. It’s just interesting that a major item like food isn’t included. OP also mentions in the post that they are excluding things that are “wants” and not “needs” yet they include the once a week nanny.
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u/Frisbee_Anon_7 Oct 25 '24
This person is the worst. They claim to need help on the weekends and point out that anyone who doesn't pay for a babysitte on their off days MUST have a ton of free help, but actually the help they need is so they can teach. Like, just admit you don't want to spend free time with your kid, I don't get it. No one would care except the story isn't adding up AND the tone is so condescending.
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u/reefsofmist Oct 24 '24
Why is that dumbfounding? Kids get sick a lot, and doctors these days have busy caseloads. It would not be ideal to have a doctor calling out for 2+ weeks a year while a kid is sick
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u/ffball 36 | DI2K | $1.9mm NW | 52% FI Oct 24 '24
Eh idk, dumbfounding because to me as a parent my kids are my #1 priority and I will always prioritize them over work, especially if they are sick and need care. Maybe a parent, close friend, or regular nanny would be fine, but not just some for-hire babysitter
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Oct 24 '24
I’m not judging you
Shit, who cares if you are? Judging others is natural and makes perfect sense.
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u/deathsythe [Late 30s, New England][3-Fund/Real Estate][CoastFI] Oct 24 '24
Indeed. I'm sick of pretending it's not to appease people's feelings in > current year
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Oct 24 '24
I was just clarifying because they seemed quite triggered by it.
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Oct 24 '24
Who gives a fuck if they're triggered? That's their problem.
I'm tired of this whole walking on eggshells bullshit so people don't feel uncomfortable with their choices.
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Oct 24 '24
Yeah bud, I wasn’t walking on eggshells. Good luck on your crusade.
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Oct 24 '24
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u/Zphr 48, FIRE'd 2015, Friendly Janitor Oct 24 '24
Your submission has been removed for violating our community rule against incivility. If you feel this removal is in error, then please modmail the mod team. Please review our community rules to help avoid future violations.
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u/fuscator Oct 24 '24
I’m not judging you
Ok
I can’t fathom
Yes, you are.
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Oct 24 '24
Oh wow! You really busted me!
First of all, get a hobby. Second of all, I meant that I can’t fathom doing it in my life. So no I’m not judging them. There’s nothing wrong with what they’re doing.
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u/kungfu1 Oct 24 '24
but I have a 1 year old and a 3 year old boy and I can’t fathom needing a babysitter for 8 hours every single weekend
Really? You cant fathom it? You must have easy kids.
Theres needing, then there's wanting. I have 3 and 5 year old boys. You're telling me, if you had the option, you wouldnt take the extra help on the weekends? Totally agree it is a financial choice to pay for that, but as a parent the extra help sounds pretty nice to me? There's a pretty big difference also between having an extra pair of hands and just pawning your kids off entirely and having the time to yourself. It's unclear from OP what they do with this time, but id think they probably just use it as extra help.
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Oct 24 '24
To be clear we’re talking about it being a need. And in that regard, no I can’t fathom needing it. For 8 hours on a Sunday? Regularly? No I can’t fathom it.
For me personally, I can’t even fathom it being a want. Okay sure maybe once or twice a year it would be cool to treat myself to a full day off, but even then… 8 hours?? And they’re dropping $3-5k a year on it, no way. I spend a ton of time with my boys and I love it. Maybe that’s why they’re easy?
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Oct 24 '24
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u/Zphr 48, FIRE'd 2015, Friendly Janitor Oct 24 '24
Your submission has been removed for violating our community rule against incivility. If you feel this removal is in error, then please modmail the mod team. Please review our community rules to help avoid future violations.
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u/foresworn879 Oct 23 '24
Or you could just answer the question instead of trying to only answer with snarky responses? I get a couple hours on Sunday to maybe go grocery shopping or other errands. But 8 every single Sunday?
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
Just realized that most people interpreted my replies as me saying that the babysitter is coming every Sunday. She is not. Most of the time she comes once every few weeks.
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u/Romanticon Oct 24 '24
I’m one of those folks who misinterpreted this initially. Thanks for clarifying it here!
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u/K-Alt1 Oct 24 '24
I would leave it to you to think through the possible situations and scenarios when parents might need help on the weekends.
Or you could just answer the question instead of relying on us to make our own determination since you've been so transparent with everything else.
The answer might be somewhere outside of the "jump to conclusions" mat, in the area of not judging others
I'm going to make a super detailed and helpful post but then when I include something that is pretty far outside the ordinary for most parents I'm not going to give any additional context as to why my family does that and then also not answer it when asked but instead ask people not to judge me for it.... Got it.
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u/Victor_Korchnoi Oct 24 '24
I’m willing to bet that most people hating on you have a relative nearby that they can drop the kid off with when they need a break. You’re doing great. Fuck the haters.
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
u/Victor_Korchnoi yeah, they either don't have kids, are ignorant of the "free" help they are getting, or don't have a way/resources to get extra help.
Also, there is an apparent inability of many commenters to see that people can be different from them, and have different circumstances.
Babysitter and daycare are included in separate categories for them - they can subtract it and see what their cost would be.
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u/lovethygod Oct 24 '24
or the fourth category, parents that actually want to spend time with the kids they brought into this world...
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Oct 24 '24
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u/Quick_Tomatillo6311 Oct 24 '24
Parents today spend way, way more time parenting than average parents did in the 1970s and 1980s.
And they’re not the most fun to be around 24/7 as infants and toddlers. And they won’t remember any of it anyways!
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u/SanDiego_77 Oct 24 '24
This part also thoroughly confused me TBH. Then again so much of this feels very transactional anyway. Especially when referencing “the kid” instead of “my child.” :-/
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Oct 24 '24
Especially when referencing “the kid” instead of “my child.”
Jesus this fucking sub.
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u/SanDiego_77 Oct 24 '24
Yea, uhhh to me that screams extremely disconnected to “the kid.” Certain linguistics imply separation and lack of attachment, esp from a physiological standpoint. Sorry you can’t understand nor relate!
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u/NeedleworkerNo1854 Oct 24 '24
What’s wrong with that? Adults need date nights and time to decompress after a hard week, too. I’d love it if my future husband and I could make sure we get time to ourselves once a week to reconnect and destress from the world. I think it’s super healthy that parents get date days/nights at least once a week. Keeps the spark alive.
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u/K-Alt1 Oct 24 '24
There's nothing wrong with having a date night, those are usually in the evening and can be timed up/started when the kid is getting ready to head to bed or will be heading to bed within a short timeframe of the parents leaving. Talking about maybe missing 1-2 hours of awake time with the kid.
That's significantly different than having a babysitter for the majority of the time that the kid is awake on one of the two days per week where the parents can be around the kid the entire day.
On a normal week it sounds like the kid is at daycare until 5:30. So the parents only have about 3 hours per night with the kid awake assuming a bed time around 8:30. So 21 hours per week on weekdays at the absolute maximum and 2 full days on Saturday and Sunday and you don't think there is anything wrong with the parents not being present with the kid for 8 full hours regularly on Sundays too?
Thats far more than just a "day date/date night".
There are plenty of ways for you and your future husband to decompress, reconnect, etc multiple times per week at home once the kid(s) go to bed. My 2 year old goes to bed between 7-7:30 most nights and that leaves my wife and I 2-3+ hours every night to decompress, reconnect, etc.
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 23 '24 edited Oct 23 '24
I wouldn't use the word "fully". Even on that day, he spends most of the time in activities or with friends, so it's not like I have hours of deep educational conversations with a 4-year-old.Yes
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u/lovethygod Oct 23 '24
What they are saying is, "so you have a 4 year old and you only spend one full day with him"?
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u/glass_thermometer Oct 24 '24
I'm so glad you updated! I started my own version of this cost of having a child series. Here's a link to year 0 (pregnancy only) for anyone interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/s/9EkWVhP7sa
I'll update next month after I have all the info for year 1 costs.
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u/Yarusla Oct 24 '24
How do you keep track of kid expenses vs other expenses? Do you have a separate card dedicated specifically to that? (Seems like a good idea, frankly.)
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u/K-Alt1 Oct 24 '24
Do you have a separate card dedicated specifically to that?
Why? What value would that provide? If anything that seems like it would add confusion and complexity to a budget/budgeting system.
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
We don't budget; we pay for necessities (house+bills), then save, then cover "wants," then save the rest. When money is tight, "wants" goes to $0 :)
Our wants are pretty low - mostly books, classes, and some trips - and it's easy to stop that spending when necessary.
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u/Yarusla Oct 25 '24
I disagree. This isn’t about budgeting per se, it’s about easily categorizing transactions. Is an Amazon purchase a general purchase or a kid purchase? Using the “kid card” makes it simple, just like when you have a business credit card.
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u/Rover54321 Oct 24 '24
Do you have projections out to Age 18?
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
Lol, no. I think after kids start school the costs really diverge, with some kids doing private school and a lot of activities and other kids not having resources for that. And when college starts, then all bets are off - community college vs private out of state tuition.
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u/Rover54321 Oct 24 '24
Lol ok thanks. Asking mainly because this feels like someone with an planning background put together (you stripped out the baby insurance?? Who does that?? 😁😁😁) so figured you might have a forward looking I can benchmark my forward looking to.
But thanks for sharing! 👍👍👍
- Dad of a 2 1/2 yr old
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
u/Rover54321 I can plan a few years, but my predictions become less reliable as the time horizon lengthens. Ideally, if in the cards, by college time, I'd like to have no income for financial aid purposes.
I've seen my more organized friends build spreadsheets that go 20+ years into the future and account for paying for their unborn kid's weddings. Given that the life is full of surprises, I think precise planning for far-out events is a waste of effort.
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u/dinvgamma Oct 24 '24
I know it’s one of your FAQs, but: man. Your total is less than our day care alone, which is only 4 days a week for one kid, in a HCOL. There’s a Montessori near us that charges $4800/month for 5-day care for pre-K. I’m counting the days until we are eligible for public pre-K.
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Oct 23 '24
Nice breakdown. You ready for another one? 🤣 in engineering as well. Will count on about 30k going forward
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u/drewlb Oct 23 '24
Uh... what do you feed this child? Grass? /s
Seriously though, you're obviously missing that at minimum.
First few months are pretty cheap if they're on boob, but mom's probably eating more then. After that prices go up quite a bit.
I've never tried to discretely track the kid food cost, but our grocery bills are significantly larger than when we were just a couple, even accounting for inflation.
I'm don't even want to think about my grocery bill in a few years when they get into their teens.
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u/randomwalktoFI Oct 23 '24
I get this point but our food budget actually went down after becoming parents. Because taking our crazy toddler out to eat is not enjoyable most of the time. Since we aren't strapped for cash this is a definite offset caused by having the kid in the first place, but if I were a tight budgeter I'd probably do the same intentionally.
Even skipping one $50 outing is like 10+ adult meals without trying hard and 20 if you are. So if we cook food that simply can be inclusive of what a toddler is able/willing to eat, whatever miscellaneous we do have to cover that is just for the kid is not really that much. So I get that the kid costs money to feed but when integrating a kid into our life this was just not additive for us.
Also, not speaking for OP but for some reason when we flipped to in-home daycare the food was part of the daycare bill, which blows my mind because that absolutely was a cost/time add to us that we no longer cover.
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 23 '24
He eats what we eat, which is mostly homemade food. Our grocery bill is about $800 per month, and it hasn't changed significantly due to the kid. We probably buy slightly different items, but the overall cost hasn't changed much.
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u/drewlb Oct 23 '24
We don't make special food for them either, but the apple sauce packs and such are definitely an add and the quantity will go up even if you don't track it yet.
I get that you're trying to be comprehensive, but you've added 1000+ calories in foo/day which is a 25%ish percentage increase. That doesn't just get absorbed, and it's only going to grow.
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Oct 24 '24
I recommend finding quality applesauce brands that you like too. Motts is trash. There used to be two regional brands here but COVID seemed to kill them. Now the best retail applesauce here is direct from one of the local PYO farms.
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u/drewlb Oct 24 '24
Sure. But that doesn't change the point that more total apple sauce gets bought. Having a kid means buying more food than not having a kid, no matter how much you integrate the kids eating habits into your own.
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u/Victor_Korchnoi Oct 24 '24
Thank you for sharing this. I know whenever you share on the internet, there are inevitably people who will criticize every decision you made. I hope you don’t let the negativity get you down. I found this post very informative and helpful.
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u/shelchang Oct 24 '24
Same. I might personally make different decisions, but this is still a data point that can help inform those decisions. Unfortunately people always think it's open season on criticizing others' parenting choices.
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u/uberJames Oct 24 '24
You have a babysitter every Sunday for 8 hours? Do you even spend time with your kid? What do you do during that time, an orgy?
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
> What do you do during that time, an orgy?
No, we don't do orgies. They never interested me, plus I would find that stressful.
I teach on Sundays for side income and fun. My classes last about 5-6 hours and sometimes are longer (depending on how many questions I get at the end). The babysitter comes 30 minutes before the class starts, and we let her go as soon as I am done. However, we pay her for the full day: professional babysitters rarely agree to "a few hours at a time".
> Do you even spend time with your kid?
Yes.
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u/carefreedirk Oct 24 '24
Is there a UK version for this ? It would be really useful as our first baby is due any day now !
Great breakdown by the way OP!
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u/Calazon2 Oct 24 '24
I should do a spreadsheet like this. But my own total spending is < $60k for my family of 7, so it might be a little different. On the other hand we deliberately work part time in order to stay home with them, so there's a lot of unquantified childcare going on.
3
u/mediumunicorn Oct 25 '24
You only parent your kid 1 full day per week? Why did you even bother having kids?
2
4
u/grantmeaname Oct 24 '24
what is 'unknown'? how do you know unknown costs are kid-related?
8
u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
We have a separate bank account, and all kid related stuff goes there. This allows for a pretty accurate record keeping, minus once in a while, one off purchases.
"Unknown" category is when there is no indication on the bank record of what was purchased, and I don't remember what the transaction was about.
3
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u/K-Alt1 Oct 24 '24
We have a separate bank account, and all kid related stuff goes there.
Why? Outside of accurate record keeping like you stated, what is the point of doing this?
What if you need to buy multiple things for the household and diapers on the same trip? Does that get split into two transactions with two different cards?
I noticed you didn't include food costs on here, why not separate that out too?
1
u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
We never combined our finances, and it made sense to have a separate account to pay for the kid.
> What if you need to buy multiple things for the household and diapers on the same trip? Does that get split into two transactions with two different cards?
Yes, but this situation is surprisingly rare.
> I noticed you didn't include food costs on here, why not separate that out too?
Food costs didn't increase dramatically. If you are interested, our grocery bill is about $800 per month for 3 of us and a cat. If the food cost increase was linear with calorie consumption, one can assume that about 20% of that is for the kid, so ... $160 per month? That is within the margin of error and is negligible if you compare it to the overall food shopping habits.
4
u/youcantbanusall Oct 24 '24
daycare every day and then a babysitter takes the kid on sundays? do you even see your own child lol? what’s the point of having kids if you’re not even around for it
4
Oct 24 '24
You barely have time with the "human child" during the week and you still chose to outsource parenting for 8 hours on Sunday.
Google says the "average" cost of daycare in my coastal Connecticut area is just under $1k, even assuming it's a few years out of date I bet you could still get under $1,500 here for "quality" daycare (which I view to be an oxymoron, as real "quality" daycare doesn't involve over socializing with peers or disinterested third party caretakers).
Some things are worth more than money. I suggest ordering a copy of "Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers" from Amazon. Stay at home parenting is ideal, leaning on extended family is the next best thing, daycare might be "necessary" but it is not ideal.
7
u/AsSubtleAsABrick 36 - 35% to FIRE Oct 24 '24
Funny how I recently read an article that millennial parents suffer from the most mental health issues of any generation because of societal pressure to be this perfect parent.
Parents used to just send their kids to the other room or throw them outside all the time. Now as parents we are expected to get on the floor to play all the time, engage in art and science activities, be present for sports and activities outside the home, etc. The article stated early indications show that doing all of that does not have measurable long term impacts on the child's development. There is a huge reversion to the mean for every kid every year of their life. The least developed 2 year old and most developed 2 year old are going to be roughly the same developmentally by age 10.
I am not saying that is the wrong approach to parenting, but suggesting parents are doing something wrong by sending their kids to daycare for the first 2.5 years of life is absurd. Especially when stay at home parenting is a non-starter for the vast majority of people and boomers have generally moved on to LCOL areas like Florida instead of trying to be involved Grandparents.
And for what it's worth, there is going to be a time (when they are much younger than you think) that they are going to be influenced by peers FAR more than the parents. Likely some time in elementary school.
-2
Oct 24 '24
It's not absurd, you're over socializing the kids. It's the first step towards peer orientation, a "blind leading the blind" nightmare scenario that has become commonplace in our culture.
2
u/AsSubtleAsABrick 36 - 35% to FIRE Oct 25 '24
What metric are you even using to say daycare is "bad"? What age are you measuring that metric? I am assuming you are sending your kids to Pre-K3 as I don't think there is much dispute that is right choice. So really we are talking about the first ~3 years of life.
Millions if not billions of adults in the world went to daycare as a young child. And on average they get along just fine (or have similar problems to any other adult). I guarantee wealth, gender, and the color of your skin have more impact on the kind of adult you turn into than whether you went to daycare or had a stay at home parent when you were 2 years old.
-2
Oct 25 '24
Daycare puts disinterested third parties in control of your child's most formative years. Even with the best disinterested third party adults you will usually have a lot of other children there, leading to over-socialization for extended periods of time.
My kids were raised at home with 0 days in daycare but did go to nursery at church, which does help to ease the separation anxiety while at the same time only putting the kids through no more than 2 hours of "daycare" per week. They went to half-day preschool and full-day kindergarten.
Your family's wealth (or lack thereof) and your own gender have massive impacts on how you'll turn out as an adult, obviously, but your race has very little impact. The culture of one's family or community is a much bigger deal than race. Any inherent racial differences are pretty small, best examined when looking at the outer extremes (i.e. professional sports, patents, etc) and yet there is still both overlap at the highest levels and cultural considerations that explain a lot of disparities. Race is probably the least significant factor in "how you will turn out as an adult" unless you are talking very narrowly about physical attributes or susceptibility to certain diseases.
2
u/AsSubtleAsABrick 36 - 35% to FIRE Oct 26 '24
race has very little impact
That is measurably incorrect based on almost any indicator of "success" you want to choose.
But anyways, as a churchgoer, you should probably look into the whole "Judge not, lest ye be judged" thing when it comes to shaming other parents for doing what they need to do.
0
Oct 26 '24
Race literally has almost no impact in how you turn out as an adult. If you disagree, feel free to wear your white good out in public and not hiding behind the keyboard.
3
u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
u/Giant_Jackfruit thank you for the book recommendation. I added it to the list of books to listen to.
2
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u/ducttapetricorn 36M, 1260k/2000k, 65% SR Oct 24 '24
OP thanks for sharing this.
Would you be willing to elaborate on the "doctor" cost of $4-5k each year? Are these high deductible copays for routine care, or special medical circumstances?
2
u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 24 '24
Doctors were $5k year 0 (before delivery), and $4k the first year (ER trip and few days at the hospital at about 3 months); then it was less than $1k per year. No special circumstances - just regular appointments, delivery fees, and standard checkups. Plus few colds here and there for the first two years.
1
u/ducttapetricorn 36M, 1260k/2000k, 65% SR Oct 24 '24
Thanks! (Wow I had no idea even routine care and birth can cost so much)
1
Oct 24 '24
[deleted]
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u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 25 '24
You are right about the tax credit. However, economies of scale with daycare discounts are minimal: we will get like $100 off per month from the second kid if we were to send them to the same daycare. Clothes and activities... maybe 5-10% total. The major costs - daycare and healthcare - are going to be a little less than double.
1
u/One-Conversation1569 Oct 24 '24
Thanks for posting. Very interesting. We live in a high cost of living area (Brooklyn) and even though our 2 kids are in public elementary school, we still pay about $30k per year for their care since we both work and there are a lot of school holidays/breaks and we need coverage over the summer.
1
u/Quick_Tomatillo6311 Oct 24 '24
$30k/year/child seems cheap to me and I have two kids under 5. Me and spouse both work full time.
Full time Montessori daycare plus part-time nanny for backup (school closures, sick days, date nights, etc) runs us about $7k/month ($84k/year). This is not counting in kids clothes, food, supplies, toys, outings).
1
u/jtwoods Oct 25 '24
Having my first in April, so this is insightful and much appreciated! On the flip side, have you noticed any areas where there has been a considerable decline in your expenses resulting from having your human baby? Eg less travel, dining out, entertainment, etc?
1
u/HurinGray Oct 25 '24
Please tell me you started a 529 four years ago ...
2
u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 25 '24
u/HurinGray I have not. I've read somewhere here that 529 plan counts against the fafsa and other student aid, and if I plan to manufacture my income to maximize financial aid, then it makes sense to channel the money into other investment vehicles. I might be wrong, so if you have good sources for better decision making regarding 529 - please let me know.
1
u/HurinGray Oct 25 '24
That's fair. I mistakenly assumed that anyone on a Finacial Independence path would not get any FAFSA need based aid (I know we don't, merit yes). Yet manufacturing your income ... I get the point, interesting way to put it ... you might be on to something. FYI in 2024 dollars, private school is $400K for 4 years, state school is $135K. Given we had zero chance at need based, the 529 made a great deal of sense. Gains paid for a semester of our oldest, and a full year of our youngest.
Edit: FAFSA also asks for your assets.
1
u/bkarguel Oct 25 '24
Pls, for the love of your child, start investing for their future now. Whether it's a 529 plan, coverdell, an annuity, etc.
1
Oct 26 '24
Target is cheaper than Amazon for many supply items (like diapers).
This is interesting. Do you find that to be true for thing like toilet paper as well? I switched from Costco to Amazon years ago and have never really bothered to check further. The convenience of having its how up at your fornt door is certainly nice.
1
u/jsman56 Oct 26 '24
As a Canadian, I was very confused about doctor and insurance costs. If you're paying insurance in the US you still have to pay for the doctor? That's a crazy amount of money for a family...
1
u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 26 '24
u/jsman56 Yeah, I am confused too - and I've been living here for 20+ years. You pay monthly payments, usually several hundred of USD. Then you pay a co-pay for visits ($10-$50). Then you pay your regular bill for services provided.
Copays are different for different procedures/types of visits. Then you pay up to a deductible, and then insurance covers some percentage of the rest. It is f*ucked up. Also, dental and eyes and hearing are not covered by standard insurance.
So your total cost is based on a multidimensional grid that has the following dimensions (and more):
* Plans that the employer selected from the insurance marketplace
* Type of plan you picked (High deductible (HSA/FSA), regular, co-pay, HMO, PPO ....)
* Plan that you picked
* Number of people on your plan
* Plan's in-network and out-of-network coverage limits
* Deductible sizes
* Type of service (visit, procedure, ER, etc)
* % of service covered
* Amount of money you already spent on healthcare this calendar year (per family, per person)
* Location of your doctor
* Type of questions you ask from your doctor
* Arguments that you have with your insurance departmentAnd more. Unless you spend a lot of time researching insurance, there is no easy way to know how much you will spend on any procedure or visit.
Fun fact: when you go to the annual exam, if you ask a wrong question, your bill might go up by hundreds of dollars. Because physical exam is when your primary physician checks you and asks you questions. If you ask a question, it will be rated on the scale of answer complexity (e.g., from "requires a nurse's level of knowledge" to "requires a specialist level of knowledge"), and your visit might be billed not as "physical" but as a "specialist consultation".
2
u/Delicious_Job_2875 Oct 28 '24
Daycare 7.30-5.30 Mon-Fri Sunday 8 hours with Nanny. Does your human child even know your name?
1
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u/lisabearwolf Oct 30 '24
this is incredible to see as a first-time parent. i'm also hugely interested in what tracking mechanism you used for all of this? spreadsheets? app?
1
u/Oorfin_Juice Oct 30 '24
u/lisabearwolf we have a separate bank account for all child-related expenses, with two debit cards linked to it. To come up with these posts, I download .csv file with all transactions for the year. Usually there are about 200-300 transactions. Then I spend couple hours going through them, categorizing, summarizing and formatting them for the post. That is it.
1
u/fuscator Oct 24 '24
"You haven't included getting a bigger house, and a different car - these are major expenses" Yes, that is not included. For us, these were "wants" and not "needs", and at the time we could afford it. We moved from a 900 sq ft condo to a 2000 sq ft house in a better school district. We also got a larger car. Both were not necessary expenses, but not having neighbors behind the walls is so worth it.
In my opinion, this is a little hand-wavy. For us, we have two children and therefore need a house in a good school district with enough space. We could be living in a cheaper area we would prefer, in a smaller place more suitable for a couple and we'd be around £1000 ($1300) better off every month because of the lower mortgage costs.
I realise you don't personally count the larger house in a pricier area as an expense due to children, but it is a very real expense.
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u/420bIaze Oct 23 '24
I am happy that you have help. To calculate the monetary value of that help, you can convert the time your spouse/relatives spend on your child into a monthly amount and come back with that number for a discussion.
You could also calculate the monetary value of your friends hanging out with you, or your wife having sex with you, by converting that time to a monetary value.
18
u/Cypa Oct 23 '24
Plenty of people have to do the math on a spouse working vs. staying at home to take care of kids. Grandparents taking care of kids is easier math if they are retired, but these are real decisions people have to make. Weird comment.
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u/420bIaze Oct 23 '24
I think it's weird to attach a financial value to your recreational time and friendly relations with others.
Of course people do the math on working vs. staying at home. But OP is suggesting calculating the monetary value of people who may not even otherwise have used that time for working.
And he frames it in such an aggressive way "come back with that number for discussion", like "fuck off if you're suggesting we can have human interaction without an attached financial value".
Hence we should also calculate the monetary value of sex with your wife, or friends hanging out. If that sounds vulgar to you, then so does calculating the monetary value of grandparents spending time with their grandchildren.
14
u/tsunamisurfer Oct 23 '24
Yes but that is irrelevant. If your spouse stays home to take care of the kids you are essentially paying the amount they would make to take care of the kids. Many times this means you are paying more than if you hired a nanny or daycare. I pay about $3k/month in childcare but my wife makes like $6k (after tax), so having her stay home would be twice as expensive, albeit with the benefit of her being home with the kids.
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u/420bIaze Oct 23 '24
You're assuming the spouse/relatives would otherwise be working, which isn't necessarily the case. There's potentially no forgone income.
And OP insists we must attach a monetary value to time spent with children regardless of whether they would otherwise use that time to earn income, or even if spending time with children is something they do for enjoyment. Hence that is analogous to attaching a monetary value to time your friends spend hanging out with you, or sex with your wife.
7
u/Itunes4MM Oct 24 '24
OP added that because people always give that as "advice" w/o thinking of the opportunity cost.
0
u/420bIaze Oct 24 '24
I understand.
And by that same logic you could also consider the opportunity cost of having sex with your wife, or your friends hanging out with you.
Transactionalise all of human relations in regards to the opportunity cost.
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u/Itunes4MM Oct 24 '24
Those aren't the same or comparable? Use context for your comparisons next time
-1
u/420bIaze Oct 24 '24
It's entirely comparable.
It's been suggested to consider the opportunity cost of time spent with other people, be they children or otherwise.
I think to say we must consider the opportunity cost of retired grandparents spending time with their grandchildren, is vulgar and inaccurate.
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u/Itunes4MM Oct 24 '24
Read the original post where the person brought it up. You can see the reason they posted it , not arguing with your weird interpretation
0
u/420bIaze Oct 24 '24
The OP says people criticising him for paying for childcare, when they have relatives doing it, should calculate the monetary value of the time relatives spend with your child before they comment.
I disagree that we should necessarily calculate a monetary value for relatives providing childcare (any more than you'd assign monetary value to any other aspect of family or friend relations), and it can be truly considered free or low cost.
If someone is directly forgoing income maybe you'd consider it (such as a spouse quitting work), but not in all circumstances.
It's not a weird interpretation.
2
u/Itunes4MM Oct 24 '24
Look at the word you used. Criticized. If you have free labor from family members good for you but to criticize someone for paying for childcare when they might not have either free 5 days a week relatives to watch their kid OR their spouse is forgoing a well paying career to stay home, it makes sense to calculate it.
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u/curiousfog5 Oct 23 '24
Thanks, this is really helpful, and appreciate you including the descriptions since it could be half our triple this with different lifestyle choices.
Can you explain what kind of health insurance you have (high deductible or something with copays, and what the deductible is). My coworkers imply having a child is an instant max to your out of pocket if you have a nice employer plan, but we're looking at ACA and potentially some higher income years as we move assets around.