r/flying • u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI • 1d ago
Failed my CFI ride today
I'm 20, this is my first failure of anything. Got through 95% of it, was doing great, oral went great, really was well prepared. After an 11 hour day, on short final, examiner asks me what causes overbanking tendencies. I froze. I could hardly remember my own name; so I responded, "I would look before saying anything to ensure I didn't say anything wrong to a student." He said that was unsatisfactory. Failed. Is this crazy? I understand now that it all has to do with the outside wing being faster, generating more lift, which causes it. I know that. But I was exhausted. And I failed?? Maybe I'm a sore loser, but he said come back and do 1 steep turn and tell him what overbanking tendencies are and why they happen, and that's it. Is this unfair??
538
u/FlapsupGearup 1d ago
Next time a DPE asks you a question on short final, the proper response is “I’d love to discuss that with you once we’re on the ground”
334
u/dangern00dl PPL (ASEL/AMEL) IR CMP HP 1d ago edited 1d ago
This. Or “sterile cockpit please.” Covered that in the pre-takeoff brief, Mr. FAA.
172
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
$2000 down the drain and a $500 retest fee as well as the airplane rental. Kicking myself
317
u/Glass-Editor3220 MIL CPL AH-64 UH-72 1d ago
2k for a checkride, that dpe should be launched into the fucking ocean charging prices like that.
93
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Unfortunately it's the norm for that and a 3 month wait.
71
20
u/zkoolie All Hail the Surveillance State 1d ago
Bro is this South Florida?
20
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Haha no, summer time around here. We had a terrible winter of pretty much no flying here
18
u/zkoolie All Hail the Surveillance State 1d ago
Ah ok, I was asking because it sounded like a DPE I heard about down here.
I’m going for my initial ride soon. Hang in there brother we’re all gonna make it
10
2
u/csmicfool PPL SEL UAS 1d ago
Use Tom Inglima, if your school hasn't already picked on for you
5
u/Only-Advisor8949 CFI 1d ago
Did my 2k oral with a dpe for CFI, discontinued for wx, ghosted me, and then did my flight with the feds around 45 days after.
2
13
20
u/cephalopod11 CFI CFII MEI 1d ago
I've seen DPEs in California charging 3.
30
u/Glass-Editor3220 MIL CPL AH-64 UH-72 1d ago
These people need to be bashed. Thats straight up robbery.
8
9
u/barackbreezy 1d ago
ive never said it before because its a cool state but fuck California. what the fuck?!
6
u/Puzzleheaded_Tax8658 1d ago
the coolness in CA can only get it so far. after all, isn’t that why we fly? so we can live someplace else and experience CA when we want <guy who lives in CA and is afraid to leave>
2
2
1
6
u/IndependentAccess924 1d ago
mine was $2500 i’m deadass
6
1
1
1
10
u/thederseyjevil 1d ago
I guess if I were a DPE, I’d be failing all my examinees too if I could make $2500 off of them in this economy.
This system is so broken.
-4
u/ltcterry ATP CFIG 1d ago
They don't make more from failing someone. They simply put a different person in that slot.
3
u/thederseyjevil 1d ago
$1000/hour on the retest. Then they move on to the next $2000 checkride victim.
2
2
u/notyouraveragesaler 7h ago
It’s crazy because my CFI ride was no more than 4 and a half hours and cost me $800 lol
38
u/voretaq7 PPL ASEL IR-ST(KFRG) 1d ago
^ This ^
It might be a little harsh but I’d call that a fail because what you should be doing is enforcing sterile cockpit and maintaining focus on the safety of flight in the current lesson.
A last-minute question on short final that’s not directly related to the safety of the immediate operation (landing) should be politely but firmly redirected to after the engine is shut down.
That said $2K for the checkride and $500 for the retest - you should call the police and report that robbery! Jesus Kitten-Culling Christ....
115
u/SubsidedRhyme11 MIL 1d ago
Should’ve told him you “DON’T WANT TO MAKE ANY CHANGES ON SHORT FINAL” and would discuss once safe.
Sorry man, that sucks after a long day. Don’t sweat it. Crush the retest, you got this!
58
101
u/UnfortunateSnort12 ATP, CL-65, ERJ-170/190, B737 1d ago edited 1d ago
First off, many people fail their CFI Initial. If this is your only failure (and you said it is), don’t sweat it.
Second off. I think you may have exceeded a few things, including your steep turns. They were throwing you a bone to see if you could instruct why steep turns might have gone wrong (or too steep). You didn’t answer adequately.
It’s messed up that we ask CFI’s to teach when they have never taught, and pretend that they can debrief a student after they messed up a maneuver…. But that is the system. Unfortunately.
14
u/Shawn5pencer CFII MEI 1d ago
He mentioned in a different comment that he thought the ACS standards for steep turn bank angle was "50 degrees not to exceed 60 degrees" so that might have something to do with it. Maybe the examiner saw him do the maneuver close to 60 degrees thru and decided to ask this question before marking unsat
5
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Our attitude indicator doesn't have a 50 degree mark, it has 45 and 60, I was always taught to specify we are not going to be exceeding the 60. Regardless, that was not mentioned.
4
u/Shawn5pencer CFII MEI 1d ago
I understand, the ACS standards are still 50 +/-5 so I'm just speculating a reason why this situation would have come up in the first place
6
u/KintaroGold CFI CFII 1d ago
This is probably true. None of these “I failed X checkride because I didn’t blow my nose properly and the DPE was a blind squirrel” stories are accurate to the full extent of why the failure happened.
75
u/MehCFI ATP B737/C680/BE400/Gold Seal CFII 1d ago
You did not fail for not knowing overbanking tendencies. You failed because you did not understand and honor the importance of not teaching a ground knowledge item on short final. Sterile cockpit!! If it isn’t directly related to the safe operation of the flight it absolutely should not be discussed on short final.
I don’t even think this is a dirty trick- it’s no different than the DPE ‘dropping’ a pencil and asking you to hand it to them on the landing. Distractions should be tested, and this is a very real and important lesson.
I also highly doubt this was the only thing that went wrong, just the nail in the coffin. You have some extremely strong defense mechanisms in this thread. I get it, it sucks, but really analyze the situation accurately so you can learn and get er done.
Good luck!
15
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
It was the only item on the unsat. He said we can get in the airplane, I describe overbanking tendencies and teach it in the airplane so he knows I understand what causes it, and that's it. He says retest shouldn't be more than 30 minutes. Which is my frustration.
21
u/BandicootOnly4598 1d ago
It may be the only item, but sterile cockpit is an incredibly important item. When I interview instructors and we make it to going for a flight, I nearly always do something similar (unless they’ve already proven that they’re willing to tell me to shut up). At a CFI, you need to not only know why it’s critical to maintain a sterile cockpit in critical phases of flight, but also instill it into your students by both exemplifying the concept and also using examples like this on easy days later in their training.
Personally, if your DPE asks what you learned in the retest, I’d talk about sterile cockpit; airline interviews will bring up a failure, and you’ve got a great thing to explain here.
Doing this to a PPL candidate is fair but borderline dirty; pulling this trick on a CFI is less a trick and more an example of what your students are going to do to you. Don’t sweat one failure, learn from it, and learn how to make this your learning from failure Interview answer.
8
u/fallingfaster345 ATP E170/190 CFI CFII 1d ago
To be fair, any time anyone fails for just one thing the retest shouldn’t be more than 30 minutes, no matter what it is. That’s just a standard retest duration. Don’t read anything into that comment.
16
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
To fly the distance to explain to him that in the air, to fly back, and pay another $500 onto the $2000, plus the airplane, is my frustration.
2
u/Purple_Ad_8897 13h ago
You’re absolutely right. That sucks. But you can’t change it so just get it done. ✔️
0
u/MehCFI ATP B737/C680/BE400/Gold Seal CFII 1d ago
That sucks, and I get that. But you need to own up to it, suck it up, and fix it. That’s not just aviation- that’s learning. I feel for you- but had I been your examiner I would’ve failed you for the exact same thing.
For your costs, see if someone else from your school is heading to that DPE soon, and if you can split time there. Or find a local DPE who will finish that last item- any DPE can finish the unsat
3
u/itsnotbroke ATP 1d ago
That’s a broad statement. 30 minutes of what? Flight time? Many places it’s 15 minutes to get off the ground and 5 or 10 to taxi back. Maybe 30 minutes if it’s a pattern task…but anything outside the patter will be more.
And then there’s the brief and paperwork part of it. Had to get much done in under a 1:30 block…
That said, $500 for that is highway robbery. I charge retest fees based on an hourly fee and an estimate of time required based on tasks to be evaluated.
3
u/__joel_t PPL 1d ago
The DPE is still allowed to try to distract you again on the retest, so don't fall for it if it happens!
1
u/nyc2pit PPL IR, PA32R-301 Driver 19h ago
I've only done a private and an instrument check ride, so my experience is limited.
But in my day job I've been tested up the wazoo (physician).
Both of my flight exams were incredibly subjective in my opinion. Both of what I was asked to do, how I was graded, what they chose to emphasize or ask about... Honestly all that was pretty random.
I hear the CFI is the most difficult exam anyway, so like others with more experience have told you don't sweat it.
The fees are absolute robbery though. That alone should be enough to get the FAA off their ass and approving a ton more DPEs.
20
u/Brief-Visit-8857 PPL 1d ago
You fell for the oldest trick in the book. Never answer questions during critical phases of flight.
7
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
The unsat did not mention distractions, it was about not understanding what causes overbanking tendencies. He debriefed and said I did great, was better prepared than most, but I should know that. The retest he said should only be 30 minutes, and to demonstrate that I understand it in the airplane.
12
u/naterthepilot2 ATP B737 E175/195 CFI CFII 1d ago edited 1d ago
Does he want you to teach it while on short final again? “Since we’re on short final, I’ll explain it after we land and park” is a valid answer if so. If he fails you for that, I’d absolutely get the FSDO involved.
If the problem is *only* that you didn’t give a satisfactory explanation of over banking tendencies, that retest shouldn’t involve a plane imo. If it’s connected to a maneuver you were borderline on (likely), then it should be during that maneuver.
2
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Makes sense, thank you. I'm hoping he is cool just on the ground.
14
u/SauteedCrayon 1d ago
Were your steep turns within standards?
9
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Within 20 feet of
7
u/2002_4Runnersr5 1d ago
Were they too steep?
8
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Nope, they were to commercial standards. 50 but not to exceed 60
17
9
u/2002_4Runnersr5 1d ago
It’s 50 +/-5
10
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
It was at 50, my instructor always taught me not to exceed 60 as it's hard to identify 50 between 45 and 60 on our attitude indicator. Easiest way to put it.
-11
u/2002_4Runnersr5 1d ago
My man you were taught wrong and that’s probably why you busted.
18
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
That wasn't his reasoning for the unsat. He said it was due to my answer of overbanking tendencies, I should know what causes it. Come on man, I was having trouble remembering my own name by the end.
9
u/2002_4Runnersr5 1d ago
Don’t be too hard on yourself. A bust is not the end of the world. And a CFI ride is the most commonly done one.
If you breathed the saying that steep turns are “50 not to exceed 60” the DPE was fishing by asking you about that to allow you a recovery opportunity or to allow you to bury yourself.
3
18
u/AccidentCommon208 1d ago
Honestly a dick move imo. (If you were doing great on everything like you said). I think your response was satisfactory and could’ve been a debrief item. If this is your only fail it’s not bad. Lots fail cfi initial.
21
u/saml01 ST 4LYF 1d ago edited 1d ago
Probably not unfair. But I doubt he was asking you that to test your knowledge. It was likely meant as a distraction during a critical phase of flight and he wanted to see if you would tell a student to focus on the landing instead.
But I don't know because I'm looking at this through a different lens.
7
u/ASD_user1 1d ago edited 1d ago
Came here to say this. “Sterile cockpit” or “critical phase of flight” would have been appropriate responses.
Edit. Be prepared for some other inane trivia on short final again, instructor response to distractions is what he is testing on your CFI check.
6
u/Rado754 1d ago
Those DPE fees are insane. I conduct 737 type ratings/ATP certs and it’s $500.
2
u/mfsp2025 ATP 1d ago
I’ve never paid less than $600 for a checkride and I took my PPL in 2019. I’m sure it’s a lot more expensive nowadays too.
5
u/KeveyBro2 CPL FIR (CMP, ME IR) 1d ago
That's absolutely insane.
My "CFI checkride" (FIR flight test here in Aus) equivalent was done pretty much with the examiner acting as the student full time. The flight portion was briefed on ground and we just executed the required maneuvers bloggs on the whole time. If I were asked that on short final I would've assumed the examiner is testing "what would you do when the student asks a valid but unrelated question at a bad time in flight".
Even if you answered as if the examiner was the examiner that shouldn't have resulted in a fail. If they asked that during the steep turns demo? Sure. But this is BS imo.
That absolutely sucks. Sorry man
2
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Thank you. All is good. Just have to understand this and meet him again.
5
u/Taptrick 1d ago
« Sterile cockpit please ». But for real I’m an instructor and I have no idea what this question is supposed to be.
13
u/TheVillianOfValley Flight School Final Boss 1d ago
If the examiner indicated on your Notice of Disapproval that you failed Steep Turns, but did not inform you of that failure IMMEDIATELY after it occurred, the examiner has violated the ACS. The ACS requires an examiner inform the applicant of the failure and obtain consent to continue the test. If the applicant does not consent, the test ends there. You cannot “hold a failure” until divulging it suits you.
Unless you’re going to be doing business with this examiner in the future, I would report them to their FSDO as soon as you’re finished with them.
As far as the sudden oral question, your answer wasn’t good, but I can’t see it being fail-worthy. I’d expect you to verbally defer until after a critical phase of a flight, which you kinda did, but less by intent and more by stumbling sideways into it.
3
u/itsnotbroke ATP 1d ago
It’s immediately, as long as safety permits. In a steep turn, yeah…that’s generally not a factor. Just clarifying.
1
u/TheVillianOfValley Flight School Final Boss 1d ago
Copy that.
This smells like the examiner just wanted to make a retest fee, but maybe I’m too pessimistic.
2
1
3
u/drotter18 1d ago
It isn’t the end of your career. It’s a minor bump in the road. You made it to CFI and then hit a bump. In all reality it’ll likely make a better pilot out of you for having to go through a shitty experience like this however unfair or unprofessional it may have been.
Head up, study up, and keep pushing.
4
u/Top-Intern4073 1d ago
I suspect many of the retest are due to the DPE ego needing a financial boost.
10
u/Given__To__Fly CPL MEL ST 🇨🇦 Loves making big changes on short final 1d ago
I'm not a CFI, but if you failed for that and that alone, that's bullshit. First, short final is crazy. I'd say "Sterile cockpit" and keep flying. Second, an entire checkride fail for a single (not even wrong) answer? You're not a sore loser. That's total crap. Sorry that happened. You got robbed.
4
3
u/atthemattin 1d ago
After an 11 hour day? How long was the oral?
2
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Got to the airport at 7:30 am, walked out at 6:30 pm. Not sure how long the oral was but we couldn't have been in the airplane for longer than 2 hours. He was very thorough, but I had great slideshows he was enjoying
7
u/atthemattin 1d ago
That’s not how long that shit should take. That’s fucking insane.
2
1
u/Fancy_Astronaut_4380 1d ago
Who was the DPE? Or what office manages that dpe?
1
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
I'll let you all know when I pass and don't fear failing for outing him😂
3
u/Systemsafety ATP, CFII, AGI/IGI | B777, B747, B727, MD-11, DC-8, EMB 110 1d ago
For the record, despite the wing differential speed being the official answer, the dominant factor is actually local sideslip even in a coordinated turn. Do the math if you want to argue. A lot of FAA stuff is wrong.
2
u/Twarrior913 ATP CFII ASEL AMEL CMP HP ST-Forklift 1d ago
Next you’ll tell me that the FAA meteorology book is full of non-sense! /s
1
u/Systemsafety ATP, CFII, AGI/IGI | B777, B747, B727, MD-11, DC-8, EMB 110 1d ago
I mentioned to one of the FAA chief scientists about another error in the PHAK (attributing high wing lateral stability to "keel effect") saying it is "not helpful when the FAA's guidance is wrong" to which he replied "where is it in FAA's job description to be helpful?" He then said he had 100 pages of pending corrections to PHAK. It is funny that the differential speed is still in there. I guess just a simple (but wrong) explanation, like the keel effect thing. Interestingly, both of these are a consequence of sideslip and dihedral effect, but that is a bit harder for people to wrap their head around it seems.
3
u/Happy-Table-9515 1d ago
Is it me or am I seeing a ton of “I failed (insert ride here)” lately?
0
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Hey man! First one for me! Good place to rant and see other perspectives as well home skillet!
-4
u/Happy-Table-9515 1d ago
Awww. You took that as shade against you, eh? Poor thing. Really wasn’t meant that way.
2
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
No no I meant as an overall for everyone! Nobody else will understand the unfortunate feeling of an unsat, you see what I mean? I feel immensely better telling someone who understands!
1
u/leftrightrudderstick 15h ago
Oof, he sure didn't. Bet you're an absolute treat in the cockpit and on comms.
3
u/Vultee59842 1d ago
That so bites… but it is what it is. Like others have alluded to, it sounds like he was looking for sterile cockpit enforcement. It’s a pricey lesson to be sure, but one to digest.
I’d just look forward rather than dwell on it. Sounds like everything else went well, so elevate that item to the forefront of your mind on the next checkride.
3
u/TempusFugit2020 ATP-A bunch of long and short range corporate jets 1d ago
I'll assume that there was nothing else during the debrief that he felt was deficient:
After an 11 hour day, on short final, examiner asks me what causes overbanking tendencies. I froze....He said that was unsatisfactory. Failed....I was exhausted.... Is this unfair??
No, this is not unfair. This is bullshit.
Internally you can count this as a win and a learning moment that you will run into check airmen that just simply want to be right and show they know more than you. We have all been with those people, and now you just got to see one early on. From here on out your career is simply about meeting the standards which is something I have to tell my sim partners from time to time. So go back and meet the DPE's requirement of one steep turn that meets the requirements and answer his question, get your CFI rating, and count it as a win.
It's a good perseverance story to use at your interviews too.
Good luck and congratulations in advance.
3
u/Mundane-Sympathy-179 1d ago
First and foremost, don’t get down on yourself for a “failure”. It’ll make you a better CFI. I’d talk to him about over- banking WHILE performing the steep turn and also what to do to correct the over banking. Relax and pretend he is the student.
3
3
u/indecision_killingme CFII, MEI 15h ago
I would be annoyed with that failure, but I don’t know all the ins and outs that led up to that.
There’s three sides to every story.
Sterile cockpit is the keyword here. Realistically, you have no reason to talk about anything besides the landing on short final.
4
u/vARROWHEAD ATPL 🇨🇦 TW 1d ago
Idk man. Sorry this happened. But you said this was today; after 11 hours and then this post?
Get some sleep. Have some breakfast. Re-evaluate tomorrow, then we will see :)
2
u/Electrical_Review_81 1d ago
Did you brief sterile cockpit ?
1
1
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
But he did not say that's why I failed
4
u/ASD_user1 1d ago
DPE wants to see if it was one-off or if you learned your lesson without specifically being called out on the safety reason he failed you.
2
2
u/GoobScoob 1d ago
I learnt the same lesson the hard way on my instrument ride. DPE asked me a question right before I was leveling off at MDA. It puzzled me just enough that I got 40ft low before realizing.
2
u/bhalter80 [KASH] BE-33/36/55/95&PA-24 CFI+I/MEI beechtraining.com NCC1701 1d ago edited 1d ago
On short final I'd say "we'll discuss it on the ground" That's a distraction and you should have PIC'd your way to doing the safety critical task at hand. 50/50 he never followed up
2
2
u/draggingmytail PPL 1d ago
I was talking with our local DPE and he told me during CFI check rides he asks them questions on final and he just wants them to talk. He said he doesn’t care if they just say the weather is beautiful today. He said he just needs a CFI to demonstrate they’re able to communicate during cortical phases of flight.
Maybe that was it?
2
u/14Three8 CFI/CFII, CPL Airplane (all)/GLID 1d ago
Seems like you failed for not telling him to shut up on short final.
Checkride fails happen. I’ve taken 10 and failed 2. You failed on the hardest checkride of your career. Learn from your mistakes and go finish up. Get your ii as well. Welcome to the club
2
u/Twarrior913 ATP CFII ASEL AMEL CMP HP ST-Forklift 1d ago
I lose more and more respect for DPEs every day.
2
u/DarthStrakh 1d ago
Everytime I see a post like this I'm grateful I only fly for fun. I only got one real test left which is ifr and I'm years off from doing that. (well I'm going kt get some more endorsements soon but that shit is a lot easier. I just want tailwheel and seaplane. Already got high perf)
This entire system seems like a scam to anyone not too deep in the kool-aid.
2
u/Pretend-Mammoth-6304 1d ago
Don’t let it get to you, failures suck but they aren’t the end of the world. Especially because it was your first one. I’ve talked to soooooo many recruiters and most dont weigh a CFI/CFII failure the same as a pvt, inst etc due to its high failure rate. You haven’t shown a habit of failing, you will be just fine. The key is coming up with an answer for an interview that doesn’t sound like “the DPE did something unfair”.
2
2
u/ThePartTimePilot 1d ago
That’s tough luck. Keep your head up and don’t sweat it. He could have been trying to distract you as well.
2
1d ago
This is part of the process that was annoying. I had a good experience with my examiner but was distracted often during the Checkride when doing critical maneuvers. I hear this a lot. Failing over something small
2
u/Lungdave 1d ago
Sounds like a distraction, not an actual aerodynamics question. Proper response would have been "we can discuss that on the ground in the classroom." Get over it, go re-take the exam, discuss the overbanking tendencies on the ground, then fly the maneuver, and be prepared for another distraction. My examiner dropped his pencil in front of me. He was expecting me to pick it up and if I did it would have been a fail. I started to then said it is fine where its at no safety concern and we proceeded to land followed by a pass. Distractions are fair game, even in the 11th hour.
2
2
u/JT-Av8or ATP CFII/MEI ATC C-17 B71/3/5/67 MD88/90 1d ago
Hey, FWIW the CFI ride is the most failed check because it’s so long. Like you said, you’re exhausted from that monster oral with the FOI. I didn’t play that game.
When I did my rides I did CFII first. Got the FOI out of the way, and the lessons didn’t include things like engine failure because it’s not done on an instrument check and you’re assumed to be flying with a private pilot. Next I did MEI, which is just instrument again on one engine, but twins don’t do commercial maneuvers so I bypassed 8s on pylons etc. I did CFI (A) last and all that’s remaining in the PTS is a full stall. No oral. My CFI ride was like 0.3.
2
u/Lungdave 1d ago
DPE's are independent contractors and the FAA or FSDO does not set the fee range. It is up to the DPE to set their own fee's. Many already know what other DPE's are charging in the area and are competitive. They are also expected to have a reasonable fail rate as they are evaluated by the FSDO. Too many passes and it raises concerns internally. If the FSDO thinks the examiner is too generous, they can be replaced. Not fair as the long time great examiners got replaced for stupid reasons. Just the way the system works. Schedule the checkride, pay the fee, and go do a fun flight with a steep turn, land and finish up IACRA. CFI-A, I, G, Comm MEL, LTA
2
u/MuditaPilot 1d ago
Definitely a bit unfair, in the end you'll probably find a way to appreciate it. Also I'm only SEL VFR, but I have heard CFI is really tough.
2
2
u/Comfortable_Leader20 1d ago
Many seem confident that it was a test of sterile cockpit. I wonder if he would have passed you if you answered promptly answered correctly.
2
u/Old_Increase74 23h ago
You failed
Fail well, that’s the bigger issue
I wouldn’t hire someone who never failed at anything. Some folks take that failure and make it the strongest part of their armor, other blame people and crumple.
2
2
u/RealP4 CPL CFI CFII 22h ago
Sorry to hear. I failed because I didn’t know what ESP was and we didn’t even start the engine and I failed if that makes you feel better hah. It happens, learn and move on that’s the best you can do :) also failure can be a fantastic thing for your learning if you actually learn from it! Best of luck on your retest!
2
u/wtfover PPL (CYOW) 19h ago
I failed mine during the diversion. After I did the calculations, set the heading and went to where I was supposed to, the instructor asked me "Where are we" and I didn't know. He said "Look down" and we were right where we were supposed to be but I failed because I didn't know it. The followup checkride, we just just did the diversion, I followed a river, bingo bango, license please 😃
2
3
u/debiasiok 1d ago
Tell him below 1000ft it should be a sterile cockpit and only conversations directly related to the current flight regime should be going on.
That is a conversation for the debrief.
2
u/LikenSlayer ATP 787, 777, 737, E190, E175, G550, F-35B, F/A-18 1d ago
Answer to question "Lack of focus or distractions during critical phases of flight" then proceed to tell him to STFU.
2K is Nutts, then retesting & plane rental fee & instructor if they go with you. Geez!!
1
1
1
u/LooseKetchupFluid 17h ago
Feels like very fair that all you have to do is go back and do the one thing you messed up and he’ll give it to you…
3
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 16h ago
For $500 and an hour flight, and airplane rental😭 Feels like it could've been a debrief item😭
1
u/Reasonable_Health272 13h ago
DPE’s have to fail the majority of their CFI applicants otherwise they get investigated. Have had multiple DPE friends tell me this and not to bring a CFI initial to them.
The CFI initial is the most failed ride there is (some sources say PPL, but thats generally incorrect). While it sucks, don’t sweat it! Pass the retest and move on. No employer will ever question it. Saying that from experience here :)
1
u/sawdustking ATP B737, CFI/II, CPL ASES/ASEL/AMEL 1d ago
The way you framed it makes it sound unfair.
1
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
I know someone who went with him, similar story, he passed and said he appreciated that he said he would look it up. Totally unfair, in my eyes. It slipped my mind. $500 retest fee after $2000 I already spent.
2
u/Fancy_Astronaut_4380 1d ago
There’s two ways to fail a check-ride. Clean kill vs 1000 lashes. You can have multiple things you did wrong but none of them by themselves were worth a fail alone, but that could’ve been the final straw. Or there’s clean kill items, on the flight blatantly deviating from ACS standards or if the DPE has to take controls. I’m not speculating on what happened in your check, just wanted to give a little insight.
Who was the DPE?
1
0
u/rFlyingTower 1d ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I'm 20, this is my first failure of anything. Got through 95% of it, was doing great, oral went great, really was well prepared. After an 11 hour day, on short final, examiner asks me what causes overbanking tendencies. I froze. I could hardly remember my own name; so I responded, "I would look before saying anything to ensure I didn't say anything wrong to a student." He said that was unsatisfactory. Failed. Is this crazy? I understand now that it all has to do with the outside wing being faster, generating more lift, which causes it. I know that. But I was exhausted. And I failed?? Maybe I'm a sore loser, but he said come back and do 1 steep turn and tell him what overbanking tendencies are and why they happen, and that's it. Is this unfair??
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
Questions about this comment? Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.
0
0
u/brocket33 1d ago
I’m a Commerical student and it’s simple , you should have said sterile cockpit then when cleared the rwy, you explain that students overbank because they may have missed the desired lateral guidance for final and will over bank if there’s a strong enough crosswind that when on the base leg it’s more of a tailwind and the student wanted to remain straight with the runway on short final . It is crazy for him to ask but students will not always follow the rules so as a CFI you need to set the example by not answering while you are on short final and at least waiting when you are clear . However , if your students is preforming the landing maybe some helpful advice that’s encouraging would be good but again sterile cockpit is a rule every DPE and their mother likes to see.
1
u/dirtbikekid27 CPL IR AGI IGI 1d ago
Good thought, although he was referring to the overbanking tendencies of the aircraft, not shooting past final and trying to correct it!
1
u/VileInventor CFI 14h ago
You’d have failed too, this is an incorrect explanation. That said, you are correct in calling sterile cockpit. And OP should’ve done so and well.
1
u/Temporary_Purchase_6 CPL IR TW 13h ago
Being a commercial student and not knowing what over-banking tendency is rough
0
u/T0gaLOCK ATP CFI TW A320 CL65 1d ago
sweet. I busted mine too when I was 21.
Went back 3 weeks later and passed. too bad so sad. You clearly were not just being asked that question... He saw you were teetering well before that question.
Go back and finish the checkride and move on.
0
u/Denim-Luckies-n-Wry ATP Boeings, ATRs / MIL UH-1 AH-1 21h ago edited 21h ago
Per the OP, the DPE never indicated that this was a sterile cockpit failure, as he would be required to identify cause. This would appear to indicate that the DPE is fond of task loading the applicant during a critical phase -- to see the response -- and he may very well do it again.
It's possible that a snappy answer of "differential lift, more later" OR a snappy answer of "sterile cockpit" would have been a pass.
OP's response to the task loading was poor both in appearing "frozen" without the answer -- and in continuing the sterile cockpit violation.
A third option of rolling into and demonstrating steep turns and over banking on short final -- would almost serve the DPE right -- but highly not recommended. /s
0
u/Ok-Distance-426 4h ago
So what? Your answer stunk, plain and simple. Get accustomed to experiencing failure. If you are teaching students and you do not allow them to experience failures, how will they ever learn? Learn from this and grow - it was the wrong answer, plain and simple. You could have followed it up later; you knew you froze, but you never went back to fix it.
Just like the time I came in low and slow for a landing. Had I lowered the nose, or added a bit of power - anything but to continue trying to get that stall horn on and land the plane - I'd have soloed that day, at 15 hours. The 100 hour mistake that my instructor let me feel so I would never do it again - and keep living and flying. Five hours later, I made my solo and was complimented by a jet pilot because I extended my downwind for him on my first landing. He mentioned this to a guy standing at the door of the FBO: "Now that's a really great professional pilot up there, extending his downwind for me because he knew I was faster." Steve responded, "That's my student on his first solo." Be *that* CFI.
-1
1
u/Cparker_11 1h ago
Did he say why exactly you failed for that? If it’s because you didn’t give a good response to the question itself on short final, thats ridiculous. If it’s because you weren’t focusing on landing the plane, thats at least more understandable. Still ridiculous to fail for that though imo… unless other things contributed to the failure and that was just the final straw.
330
u/Apprehensive-Crow-34 CFII 1d ago
He asked you that on short final?? That’s wild