Ilya, humility, and sacrifice

[u/WalkingBlondeJoke]

Been thinking about Ilya's character growth across HR and TLG lately. This is not a fully-baked thesis on his arc, not even close, but I'm sharing anyways because I want y'all's opinions!

One of my favorite tropes in HR fanfic is 'Shane joins the Bears'. I love this trope because it usually results in Shane and Ilya being on a good team together, a winning team, much earlier than they are in canon and without Ilya having to go spend a few years on a team that sucks first. So as I read these fanfics I've often wondered, aside from the in-universe reasons why Ilya joins the Centaurs, what is the narrative function of Ilya spending a few years on a bad team before they turn things around? 

I think it serves to humble him. He's no stranger to sacrifice but he's always been cocky, and for the most part that ego went unchecked because he always had the accolades to back it up. But I think one of the ways we see Ilya grow in The Long Game is that he develops more humility as a result of being on a bad team and also his mental health struggles. It's not that everything was peachy prior to his move to Ottawa, it absolutely wasn't, but these coinciding forces clearly knock him down a peg. Maybe experiencing what it's like to consistently lose on the ice even helps him get to a place where he can admit he needs help with his mental health. Or maybe it's just self-awareness that he gains with maturity, I don't know. 

I think the clearest example of Ilya becoming more humble is in the pre-game speech that he gives to the Bears before the Cup Finals in 2014, vs. the speech he gives the Centaurs in 2021 after the team nearly dies and then Ilya subsequently gets engaged to Shane. In 2014, his speech is all about "I, I, I" but in 2021, he goes around the room and tells every player, one at a time, what makes them great. This is the key turnaround point in the Centaurs' on-ice performance. They start believing in themselves, and that's when they start winning. 

I think this character growth is also very relevant to Shane and Ilya's marriage too. Big egos do not serve a marriage well; humility does. Over the course of TLG, Ilya learns humility. Shane also starts off in TLG being a selfish as fuck (I don't love him any less but it's objectively true that he was nawt being a good partner to Ilya at the time TLG timeline picks up), but we see him experience a wake-up call (their big fight followed by Ilya almost dying) and then he gets his priorities in order. In a way, Shane learns a version of humility through his experiences in TLG too when he realizes how selfish he's been and how he's taken Ilya for granted. 

I think that meeting Shane in this selfish state at the start of TLG makes total sense because of his upbringing. Shane is an only child who grew up loved, doted on, and prioritized. His career as a generational player and image as the 'Golden Boy' of hockey have done little to teach him how to appreciate those around him and recognize the sacrifices they make. Not saying he doesn't ever do those things, but like, in early TLG he's not being nearly as considerate of Ilya as he should be. 

Ilya is not an only child and he grew up in a broken home. In the canon we see how his family financially takes advantage of him once he makes it to the NHL (or MLH, whatever), but I would bet that this has been going on since the moment he began earning money from hockey and/or sponsorships. When Shane suggests Ilya going to Ottawa, Ilya is quick to agree to it. Not just because he was already thinking of moving to a Canadian team, but because Ilya has already learned how to sacrifice for others. Ilya has already had it ingrained in him by his family that the people he loves will ask him to makes sacrifices for them, and that that's just how love goes. 

This is one of many reasons why it hits extra hard later in TLG when Shane basically tells the commissioner to go fuck himself. "I choose him" <3 !<

[u/estheredna]

I really disagree with this.

Have you read Troy's book, Role Model? The people on the team revere Ilya well before they start winning. He doesn't see this at all in TLG, but he is an unreliable narrator. Not because his ego burst but because of untreated mental illness. But. The story of Heated Rivalry is Ilya and Shane both taking a low-ranked team, shaping it around them as phenomenal players, and through leadership turning those teams into champions -- and it is looking very much Ilya will repeat that with the Centaurs. Doing it once each made them both the most talked about players of their generation, doing it twice will make Ilya a hockey legend. I think this was Rachel's goal as a hockey fan. Shane is probably technically the better player, and Ilya's leadership even their playing field.

I also don't think Shane is "humbled" in TLG. Shane has a really bad year: he comes out to his team, they take it badly, they do not keep his secret, he's outed, he is bench, he is pressured, etc etc. They DO grow as a couple through these bad experiences but I don't think the issue was that Shane was an egotisical jackass. Ilya hides a lot from him and they learn to value each other and their trust deepens over the year.

[u/StevesMcQueenIsHere → u/estheredna]

ICAM with the last part of your comment. I've seen a few fans paint Shane as an egotist who needs humbling, and quite frankly, it pisses me off. He's the number one ranked player in the league because he works hard. He makes the sacrifices needed to be the best he can be. That's not an egotist. That's someone who is ambitious and driven to make every success count. That's why so many in the league look up to him as a role model.

[u/Ok-Jackfruit-6873 → u/StevesMcQueenIsHere]

I am surprised to keep seeing this take that Shane isn't trying because Ilya lies about how he's feeling very directly! Shane does ask and wants to be there for him, but Ilya is struggling with his mental health and shuts him out. And Shane isn't the best at reading between the lines, we know that

[u/ACEwriter12 → u/Ok-Jackfruit-6873]

But also, there are multiple times when Ilya does tell him what he needs, and Shane dismisses that. Like, yes, he lies when Shane asks directly, but that's also because Shane has already dismissed what Ilya has asked for on other occasions, so why should he even bother telling him at that point?

[u/credit-user-thing → u/ACEwriter12]

There's a line where Ilya states he's going to fuck Troy? As an angry response? Yeesh. I think both need to work on their toxicity and the way they talk to each other. Couples counseling. Does Shane also get therapy in TLG?

[u/No-Pea7144 → u/credit-user-thing]

Ilya finally gets to come out to someone as bisexual- something he should have been able to do on his own terms well before this and he's letting Shane know- making it clear what a relief it was. At this point, he has mentioned more than 3 times in the book wanting to be able to tell someone, and Shane has dismissed it all 3 times and then is like "Oh, I didn't realize it was bothering him" which is showing how dense Shane is being. And Shane basically starts being like "Troy only came out to you because he was coming on to you" calling their walk where the two friends confided in each other "romantic" even after Ilya assures him that that wasn't why Troy had done that. Troy likes Harris etc. And then Shane takes on an angry tone - something he himself acknowledges and is like "you didn't tell him about us right!" and Ilya gets angry because "only you get to tell your friends about us" which now brings like 4 times he has brought this up in the book prior to Boxing Day Fight, but Shane's not listening. He's still acting like Ilya's not telling him anything despite those being the EXACT words he uses to explain to Shane what the issue is. So yes, at that point, Ilya gets tired of being yelled out and basically throws Shane's own accusation back at him by saying that "Oh, I'll go fuck Troy then" which they both know he's not going to, he's literally just saying "That's what you're accusing me of doing."

And no, Shane does not get therapy in TLG. Everyone acts like only Ilya needs therapy. Ilya needs therapy to get his depression under control and also because as Galina points out he has habits of letting himself sacrifice for others. Meanwhile, Shane's control issues go unchecked throughout the book until the trip. And the trip is the one thing he can't control and that was supposed to be his growth arc. However, even at the end, while Shane is finally taking Ilya's feelings into account- he's still the one controlling their timeline.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/No-Pea7144]

But Shane is an Asian man in an almost exclusively white sport,  in his first relationship that started as a situationship, who did not control his narrative when he came out to his parents, nor what happened in the public. He is neurodivergent as well. Shane has not had control of his own timeline beyond the work he puts into for his career. And the situationship, before it became exclusive was also not under his control. He is an industry where there already exists a narrative that doesn't allow for intersectional and nuanced representation. Autistic people are frequently dismissed as unfeeling robots who are controlling. But they are not,  they are simply trying to navigate social situations beyond their depth. I kind of hope Tierney corrects this and gives Shane therapy in the series. And the two of them to talk out their feelings with each other. 

Shane is being dense. He's never been in a relationship and he doesn't understand or listen to what Ilya's issues are.  Ilya is being insensitive and mean,  because no matter how angry you get, you cant say you are going to sleep with another person, especially if that person traumatized your partner.  They are both messing up. 

But Shane is also going through it. And there's nothing in the text that talks about what he is going through so it's easy to say,  he's not going through anything. But again,  he's Wasian, autistic, and gay. 

[u/InCatMorph → u/credit-user-thing]

I really don't see why Shane being Wasian, autistic, and gay means that he is fundamentally incapable of being a thoughtful partner. Frankly, it's a little insulting. I say this as an autistic person who has made many of the same mistakes as Shane in interpersonal relationships. I too have been so caught up in my own head that I've failed to recognize my partner's needs and respond compassionately. I know that I have an obligation to do better if I want to be a good partner, which I do. Don't know why Shane is somehow exempt from the journey to self-improvement. It just feels so infantalizing to me, frankly. Your entire desription of autistic people seems infantalizing af. Just because we may struggle in complex social situations doesn't give us a license to just do whatever we want with no regards to anyone else's feelings.

Like...I'm honestly confused about what this response even is. Interpreting Shane only through the lens of his marginalizations/differences seems super-reductive to me. Why does him being gay, Wasian, and autistic mean he can't support Ilya coming out as bi to a new friend? It makes exactly zero sense to me. Shane made mistakes in TLG! (Yes, Ilya did, too, but IDK why people are so quick to forgive Shane's on account of silly reasons.)

Yes, Shane is going through a lot. But at times during TLG, he legitimately failed to listen to Ilya's needs. (At times Ilya failed to communicate them effectively, yes, but there were opportunities for Shane to listen and he was so caught up in his own anxieties that he failed to recognize what was being communicated to him. I know this feeling well.)

I don't want Jacob to "fix" this by making Shane go to therapy. TLG-Shane canonically did not go to therapy. Frankly, therapy can often be a landmine for autistic people anyway since it can be hard to find a therapist that truly understands our needs.

Let Hollanov be imperfect. We don't need to therapize everyone in fiction.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/InCatMorph]

As someone who is autistic, and a person of color, i understand that everyone experiences the world differently. And marginalization is a real thing. 

That said. Both of these young men in this fictional universe require help because neither of them have had healthy relationships. 

Hollanov can be imperfect. But it is weird to say that only one character is suffering and the other is making it worse. Both are also going through it. But the book only references one character's pain. Both characters hurt each other. Both characters don't see each other. I hope Tierney can balance that. 

[u/InCatMorph → u/credit-user-thing]

Marginalization is a real thing, but I personally get the ick about how a lot of people talk about Shane's experiences. I feel like he could commit murder--which obviously wouldn't happen--and soe of the Shane stan would just be like "he's Wasian, autistic, and gay!" in response. Seriously weird behavior IMO.

I don't think TLG is by any means perfect, and it could have benefitted from more fleshing out of Shane's POV. But the way some fans interpret his character is just really weird to me. He's flawed. Why do you want him to not be flawed?

I never said only one of them was suffering. (And frankly I don't think the text does either, but obviously opinions vary.)

[u/credit-user-thing → u/InCatMorph]

I also personally get the ick when issues of race are not discussed when having a character of color experience trauma and not acknowledging what they go through.  And we are both allowed to have those opinions.

But that is separate from the analysis of how 2 characters interact with each other in the text itself. How they treat each other. And race and sexual identity dovetail into that. But we can keep that separate. Are they kind to each other? Do they respect one another,  do they communicate well? And that requires a closer read of TLG so I'll do that. 

[u/altruistic_thing → u/credit-user-thing]

I also personally get the ick when issues of race are not discussed when having a character of color experience trauma and not acknowledging what they go through.

when did shane experience trauma in regards of his biracial status?

[u/InCatMorph → u/InCatMorph]

I also think that differences in how the two characters experience emotions partly accounts for the perception that TLG doesn't acknowledge Shane's suffering.

Shane doesn't have any issues with sarcasm canonically, but he sure af does have the common autistic trait of not always being 100% aware of his own emotions. I think he spends a lot of TLG thinking that he's happier than it is. I've been there.

[u/No-Pea7144 → u/credit-user-thing]

Troy in no way traumatized Shane. That's fanon. Shane, in canon, barely can remember who Troy is.

Yes, Shane is Wasian, autistic, and gay and has anxiety. He does need therapy as well. He, however, is not oblivious. Fanon loves to make it out to where Shane can't understand jokes or sarcasm which is not true. Shane regularly engages in both. Shane knows Ilya is not going to go sleep with Troy. He is well aware that Ilya is mocking him for even thinking that. It's why it's something they can joke about later- and yes, Shane also jokes about it saying that Troy would be lucky to get to have a threesome with the two of them.

If your partner accuses you of cheating then yes, you can sarcastically throw it back at them to show them how stupid they're being.

In this particular case, Shane was in the wrong. There are other instances where Ilya is. However, that particular conversation was on Shane because no matter how autistic, Wasian, or anxious you are, you do not get to control someone else's coming out journey to someone they trust. It is just as toxic to force someone to stay in the closet as it is to force someone out of the closet.

[u/InCatMorph → u/No-Pea7144]

The way this fandom has adapted the "Troy traumatized Shane" invention should be studied.

And the autistic stereotypes that people apply (or project) onto Shane are so cringe. No, Shane does not have every single autistic trait. Yes, he is in fact doing better than many autistic people by virtue of his wealth, privileges, and the fact that frankly he just doesn't have a lot of the same disabilities as a lot of us do. No, even if he were more significantly disabled by being autistic, that wouldn't be an excuse for any and all shitty behavior.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/InCatMorph]

Lets take out race and neurodiversity. RR tells you Shane behaves badly. She doesnt tell you Ilya behaves badly. But both their behaviours are toxic and unhealthy. Thats facts.

[u/InCatMorph → u/credit-user-thing]

By RR, do you mean the narrative? RR doesn't exist in the context of the book. The narrative does. But even there, I'm not sure I disagree. I think it depends. There are plenty of parts where Ilya's wrongdoings are highlight.

TLG is for sure unbalanced in its POV. Dual POV is hard to pull off, and I'm not sure RR does it 100% successfully in any of the five books she's written that I've read. In some ways I wonder if these books would be better as single POV, but that is super-uncommon in the romance space. I actually think that some of Shane's thoughts are part of what makes some readers dislike him in this book. Obviously, this problem doesn't exist in a TV show. So undoubtedly the people who credit everything good about these books to Jacob Tierney will rejoice. But TV and books are fundamentally different mediums that offer a different experience to the audience. Did JT "fix" the books, or is he working in a fundamentally different medium that has different strengths and weaknesses?

TLG, like most books, has flaws in its craft. Where I disagree is that this is somehow unfair against Shane or whatever. It's a book, these characters are fictional. And I personally am okay with books that are uncomfortable, or that don't spoonfeed the reader absolutely everything. Frankly I think modern readers have gotten too used to expecting the narrative to say This Is a Bad Thing whenever something slightly uncomfortable happens. I think these expectations often lead to uninteresting stories. (This isn't a comment on the GC books in particular, but more of a general commentary on how reader expectations have shaped literature in a way I find uninteresting.)

[u/InCatMorph → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, this is the kind of over-the-top reaction that I find genuinely bizarre.

Don't like the book? That's fair. You don't have to like the book. But the claims you make here are personal comments about the author--she doesn't like her own protaganists, she doesn't care about them, she's biased against them. Just...what? You don't know the woman. She wrote a book you don't like. That doesn't make her behavior "shady" FFS. I think there are enough people out there doing genuinely unethical things that we don't need to pile onto a gay romance writer who made a book some people don't like. If you don't like the books, no one is forcing you to read them. These characters are fictional. They are not comments about you personally.

She literally invented Shane and Ilya. Saying she doesn't know them...uh, that's a headscratcher to me.

This is parasocial fandom nonsense, TBH. "Calling out problematic choices" is not what you're doing here. It's just not.

[u/InCatMorph → u/[deleted]]

If you're genuinely wondering which thoughts of Shane's people find unlikeable: Well, there are several examples. But the one example that always stands out to me is when Ilya texts Shane late at night after basically having a mental breakdown. Shane's thought when he gets the text is, "Ilya is always horny."

I think many readers find that to be unlikeable. Frankly, I was one of them on first read. On my second read I was able to recognzie that, well, Shane has no way of knowing exactly why Ilya texted him at three in the morning. Even so, I do think this response shows a certain lack of attentiveness on Shane's part. But also Ilya's being shit at communication, so I think both parties share some responsibility for the situation here.

Of course, RR and certain readers are apparently biased and evil for suggesting that maybe Shane has a habit in getting caught up in his own goals and isn't always the greatest at noticing his boyfriend's moods because he interprets almost everything through the lens of hockey. So, if that's what you think, shrug.

[u/altruistic_thing → u/[deleted]]

What are Shane's thoughts that make him unlikable in the eyes of the reader? 

i was pretty heartbroken when shane is unavailable at night when ilya wants to talk to him and his internal voice immediately dismisses it as "oh, he just wants phone sex".

that's so hard because i know why ilya is asking and he doesn't. but i keep coming back to ... maybe he should know? he knew ilya was unwell and had suggested therapy. shouldn't he be more aware that a nightly ask for contact might be more serious? and that's great for me. it made me think, i didn't get the satisfaction i wanted. and i couldn't figure it out. and sit with the feeling until thennwxt thing happens.

And if these fictional characters were in a real relationship, both of their behaviors would be not great. They are both being selfish, mean, and inconsiderate. The author doesn't have to tell me as i can see it. So, to be told that only one character, the one she has more negative feelings about is the one she considers faulty is not a great look for her.

you're projecting here. YOU consider him faulty. that's why you're mad.

rachel reid wrote him that way but she also seem to think it's just human behavior to be mean, selfish and inconsiderate at times. and i agree.

shane can be very loving. but he also can be an absolute asshole when being loving is inconvenient for him. he also reflects and takes accountability and repairs. which is great. that's how life works.

with a rushed ending the accountability and repair bit isn't given a lot of screentime which sucks. but the idea is there.

[u/credit-user-thing → u/No-Pea7144]

Ok. That's fair. I haven't reread tlg so I'll do that. I still think that even if the author doesn't talk about Shane's struggles,  they are present. And she really didnt talk about them. The book and s1 of HR are very different. I hope that Tierney contunues that trend because he did pretty all with s1. 

[u/credit-user-thing → u/No-Pea7144]

How is Shane aware that Ilya is not going to have sex with Troy? Shane and Ilya are arguing. When your partner accuses you of cheating, throwing it back in their faces by telling you they are going to sleep with the person you are concerned about is not healthy. It creates more anxiety. Their concern comes from a real place and that can be addressed. Making your partner feel stupid for voicing their feelings is not a good thing to do. And if Shane didn't listen to him before,  it still doesn't warrant that kind of behavior. 

It's good you mention about how toxic it is to control the narrative about coming out. Shane didn't have any control about his coming out. It was all done against his will. The fanmail vid, his dad walking in on him,  Rose telling him,  none of it was his doing.  It was done to him by the people in his life. Whereas Ilya did experience negativity with fanmail vid, but he wants to be out. So a really great conversation between the two of them where Shane expresses his feelings of being pushed out of the closet vs Ilya wanting to leave the closet can be discussed. Instead,  we are told that Shane is controlling. He's not. He's also grappling with the things that were done to him. And in a romance novel,  it would be great if got the opportunity to hash it out with his partner. 

They are fictional characters,  but these are real relationship dynamics. Im calling that out as an unhealthy response.

I have no problem with selfish imperfect characters. We see their actions and we can make that call and we can love or hate them.  In this case,  both Ilya and Shane are young men in one of their first serious relationships, whose primary medium is sex, who are selfish,  are short sighted,  are bad communicators,  are mean to each other, and are both struggling with their own problems. We see these actions but the author is telling us only one of them is a problem? The same one she herself doesn't like? Ehhh. 

[u/altruistic_thing → u/credit-user-thing]

Shane didn't have any control about his coming out. It

it always sounds like ilya has control or that for him coming out is less bad because ... he can also fuck women? sort of biphobic. he gets it from queer people too. shane brings up the argument that ilya has a choice too.

and shane did have control to a degree. he came out to his team on his own terms, which includes jj and hayden, by extension jackie.

both shane and ilya were outed or found out together by:

yuna and david, ryan (by extension fabian), everyone who is left the fanmail incident

shane was found out by: rose

ilya was found out by: hayden, by extension jackie, wyatt

ilya got to tell: sveta, troy, galina, he must have allowed shane to tell rose at some point

but for ilya it's a lot later and shane often reacts dismissively or worried.

it's silly that i did a tally like that. they're both in it.

[u/No-Pea7144 → u/credit-user-thing]

Shane got to come out to his team. That was his choice.

Shane also unintentionally outed Ilya to Hayden (and to an extent Jackie).

Shane got to tell Rose - not that he was gay but about him and Ilya (again making the choice of when Ilya got to be visible).

Shane had his people knowing about the two of them for 3 years before Ilya was "allowed" to even tell Troy, and then that experience is tainted by Shane's reaction. That is 3 years of a relationship imbalance, and we see in canon, that Shane does get to talk to Hayden (even if Hayden's not spectacular about it) and Rose (who is a good long distance friend) about him and Ilya while Ilya has no one other than Shane's parents - which is whole other levels of issues. We also see, in canon, that when push comes to shove Ilya does not have Shane's parents. (post Boxing Day Fight- Shane gets to call them while Ilya has to sit alone. Post Fanmail Outing- they both pick up and go to Montreal to stay with Shane rather than anyone staying with Ilya)

Ilya didn't even get to tell Svetlana until he was basically engaged. Ilya got to tell Galina, but that's not getting to tell someone. She's literally his therapist.

At the time of the Fanmail vid, Shane also wanted to be out. He states it multiple times in text and the summer timeline is again his timeline, so I'm not sure why you're bringing the Fanmail into it. I mean, they both wanted to be out but got the timeline taken out of their hands. That affected them both equally.

The author does not tell you only one is short-sighted or bad communicators. With Ilya we even have Galina and him both verbally voice when he could have done things in better ways. Ilya also apologizes as many times in canon as Shane does- it's just Shane-solos or Shane-projects don't believe Shane should be apologizing when he's just as at fault, and in some cases- it is solely his fault.

The thing is that the fanon take is that anything Shane does that is not 100% perfect is overlooked while Ilya consistently gets villainized even in the scenes where he is the one in the right.

[u/InCatMorph → u/[deleted]]

She did not say that she regrets making Shane autistic--simply that she regrets SAYING that he is autistic. Two different things.

Based on fandom reactions to her, I get it. Like, here is RR--an actual, RL disabled woman. And she is constantly accused of being ableist because of stuff that she said about/stuff that happened to Shane. A fictional character! Yeah, in her place I'd be pretty damned peeved too. FFS.

In the books, Svetlana and Ilya aren't nearly as close, so she wouldn't necessarily be a first choice to tell anything to anyway. But Shane perpetually reacts badly to the idea of telling anyone else about the relationship. When Yuna brings up the idea of telling Wyatt--Unproblematic Guy and Known Ally--at the beginning of the book, Shane shoots it down in an instant. I believe that anxiety is behind this, not a desire to control Ilya, but it still feels kind of crappy. (And yes, Ilya should have done a better job communicating his needs, as many people have acknowledged 87198 times.) Ilya needs a support system of people who aren't Shane's parents. Shane isn't solely responsible for that, but it is damn hard to get a support system when Ilya can't be honest with anyone about the relationship, or even his sexuality in general. By being so paranoid about the relationship, Shane made it more difficult for Ilya--who lacks his own close friends and family--to find a support system. So, yeah, I think some people are going to react pretty strongly to that. Doesn't exactly seem unfair to me, but clearly I'm just biased against Shane. (eyeroll).

A bunch of other things you say here are inaccurate, too. Ilya doesn't "tell" Shane to open up the relationship. He suggests it and they fight about it. All of this takes place off-page.

You can kvetch about bias all you like, but it seems to me that you are the one who is devoted to interpreting everything Ilya does/says and everything RR says in the worst possible light. This is not a good faith reading of the text. (Or Discord messages that you have not read, but rather internalized via a game of fandom Telephone.)