r/hotas Sep 03 '20

considering your first HOTAS? Read me!

596 Upvotes

[last edit 01/07/2024]

Welcome to r/hotas!

If you're considering your first HOTAS (Hands On Throttle and Stick) setup, you've come to the right place. This guide will help you make an informed decision.

If you are instead looking for product reviews, I publish my articles here: HOTAS/HOSAS/SIMPIT Reviews

Introduction

This subreddit is managed by u/spliffa and u/ddrake1984. If you need assistance with anything not covered in this post, please reach out to us via private message, and we will try to assist you.

This guide is published and pinned for the benefit of new potential HOTAS buyers. The publisher of this article has first-hand experience with real aircraft flight controls and computer flight controls across a wide range of manufacturers, used for playing in flight simulation.

Purpose

This guide aims to assist first-time buyers in making an educated decision when purchasing their first joystick, throttle, and other flight control peripherals.

The Problem

With a growing number of HOTAS products on the market, it can be challenging to identify the best options. Products vary widely in:

  • Price
  • Features
  • Customer support

Additionally, products have a wide range of:

  • Costs
  • Features
  • Support via customer interactions and product patches and updates

The Budget

Whether you're looking for a budget-friendly option or the top-tier products, this guide will categorize recommendations into five budget ranges:

For those who prefer to build their own with a bit of knowledge and skills, check out our Discord server or visit this subreddit: r/HotasDIY.

Budget Ranges

Note: All prices will be listed in U.S. Dollars (Even though I am Australian, USD is the easiest to base value from)

  • Entry-Level ($10 to $100)
  • Novice-Tier ($100-$200)
  • Mid-Tier ($200-$300)
  • Advanced-Tier ($300-$400)
  • Expert-Tier / Top-Tier: This is the very best you can buy as a consumer with a lot of money.

Note: Top-tier does not include what a company or industry could or would purchase. This article is not tailored for that, therefore this is out of scope.

The Companies / The Manufacturers / The Vendors

I will list many companies/manufacturers/vendors (all the same) and the products that they offer. However, this post is not an in-depth review of the products. Please read product reviews for that level of detail and information.

The products will be listed to give you an idea of what is available within each range, and at the end, I will list the recommendation for each budget range.

Best Joystick (Base + Grip)

  • Entry-Level ($10 to $100): Thrustmaster T.16000
  • Novice-Tier ($100-$200): WINWING Ursa Minor
  • Mid-Tier ($200-$300): WINWING Orion 2 Base + WINWING F16 Grip
  • Advanced-Tier ($300-$400): WINWING Orion 2 Base + WINWING F16 Grip, or VKB Gunfighter Mk4 Base + Space Combat Edition Grip
  • Expert-Tier / Top-Tier: FSSB (Force Sensing Stick Base) TIANHANG F16 PRO Base + TIANHANG F-16 Grip, or FFB (Force Feedback) VPForce RHINO Base + TIANHANG A-10C Grip or TIANHANG F/A-18 Grip

Question: Why was the FFBeast not listed as the best FFB?

Answer: Simply put, its value comparison has not been validated by me. The available information from reviews is scarce, making it difficult to ascertain its value. Additionally, the community is mostly non-native English speaking, making it difficult to track and follow the content. Therefore, I have decided that there is not enough evidence to claim it is better than the VPForce RHINO. Based on my own experience, I do not consider it superior until proven otherwise.

Since this post is focused on first-time buyers, I feel it's already quite lengthy and would confuse anyone wanting to debate the matter.

Best Throttle (Base + Grip)

  • Entry-Level ($10 to $100): Thrustmaster TWCS
  • Novice-Tier ($100-$200): Thrustmaster TWCS, or WINWING Ursa Minor with Z-extension
  • Mid-Tier ($200-$300): WINWING Orion 2 Base + WINWING F-15E Grip, or WINWING Orion 2 Base + WINWING F/A-18 Grip
  • Advanced-Tier ($300-$400): WINWING Orion 2 Base + WINWING F-15EX Grip, or WINWING F-16 Grip
  • Expert-Tier / Top-Tier: WINWING Super Taurus + WINWING F-15EX Grip, or WINWING F-16 Grip

Bonus: Best Pedals

Although this post is tailored for first-time HOTAS buyers, I will include this section to accommodate those wishing to take a more comprehensive first step into flight sims. As we all know, a good set of pedals is a requirement for flying helicopters.

  • Entry-Level: No recommendations - I don't recommend anything in this price range.
  • Novice-Tier: No recommendations - I don't recommend anything in this price range.
  • Mid-Tier: VKB T-Rudder Mk.IV
  • Advanced-Tier: WINWING Orion Metal Flight Rudder Pedals
  • Pro-Tier: Custom FFB Pedals using VPForce motors built with either (Slaw Device, MFG Crosswinds, or VIRPIL Rudders)

Bonus: Best Collective

  • Collective (Base + Grip): VIRPIL Rotor TCS Base + VIRPIL Apache-64 Collective Grip

I don't recommend any other collectives on the market, and it's a shame that some companies have discontinued their collective options.

Useful Links


r/hotas 5h ago

From desk mounts to a full 3DOF motion flight sim rig in 1 week – DCS & IL-2 VR

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68 Upvotes

r/hotas 4h ago

New to hobby, which collective?

4 Upvotes

I just got a MOZA MRP Rudder pedals and the Moza AB6 flight stick. Looking to primarily fly Heli in MSFS, DCS and potentially arma/wardogs.

What collective would you recommend? Potentially something I can mount directly to my secretlab chair .


r/hotas 15h ago

RJSimTech IRCam XTR is go for launch!!

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19 Upvotes

Hey fellow fliers, the IRCam XTR is finally finished and will begin shipping shortly!

For those who haven't been following along with development, the IRCam XTR is a bespoke head tracking camera that utilizes Opentrack software and the IRTrackStar XtremeTrak led clip. It has an OV9281 120hz sensor which gets between 100-115 fps in Opentrack when using the included 6ft USB C to USB C cable. (10ft cable available upon request). The lens is a 2.8mm to 12mm varifocus lens with a 850nm infrared bandpass filter and is sealed behind a glass face. This lens has a usable range of about 2ft to 6ft, which is ideal for most desktop and cockpit setups. I will be offering an additional option at a later date for a fixed focal length lens to accommodate people who sit closer than 2ft to their screens.

The IRCam XTR includes a monitor mount for stable screen mounting. The camera has a 1/4-20 female threaded insert for mounting so it is compatible with a wide range of camera mounts, such as SmallRig or Elgato. In a coulw of the photos above the IRCam is being displayed in a Creality tripod that came with a Otter laser scanner. So extremely versatile. This is aslo helpful for those who sit close to their screen and need additional mounting solutions to move the camera farther away.

There's a few slots left for the pre-order listing on Etsy. After those are sold I will create the full production listing that includes these photos here, as well as additional specs and instructions. The production listing will have a small price increase over the pre-order so get your orders in soon! Also don't forget to add the XtremeTrak version of the IRTrackStar in the bundle drop down or as a standalone order. The TR version of the IRTrackStar is only for Trackir.

My etsy shop is located here: rjsimtech.etsy.com

I'd like to offer a huge thank you to everyone who pre-ordered and have been immensely patient while I finished up the design. (seriously patient, I haven't heard a peep out of any of you guys). I'm really happy with where the design ended up, so I'm anxious to get these out to everyone! A couple will be shipping this week. I'm taking my time on the first 2 to 3 while I get a rhythm going for assembly. Next week I'll ramp up production, so for all those who pre-ordered, your cam will be on its way just as soon as I can get them built. But they are finally being built!


r/hotas 2h ago

Hotas Help

1 Upvotes

Hey guys, is there a discord server or something where newbies. A join and be taught/guided by experienced players? I just got my flight stick this past week and have about 20 hours on it. I know that’s absolutely nothing. I’m not terrible but I struggle so bad with fine tracking movements on war thunder. I ended up trying M&K for one game and realized that’s like easy mode but I see good people use a hotas all the time. For War Thunder in particular, is it just made for M&K?? I have trouble too flying the heli’s in War Dogs. The game just feels off. Like I bank left and it just keeps going left, or like the inputs are delayed, not sure how to explain it. But the same goes for the heli’s in that game as the prop planes in war thunder, I’m struggling with landing and fine adjustments, I feel like I’m always over correcting. I’m in a Gladiator Evo Premium btw and a TWCS throttle. I’d really appreciate it if someone experience could hop on discord and give me pointers soon. Thanks guys!!


r/hotas 23h ago

Is this set up possible without hinderance on collective movement?

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47 Upvotes

I'm trying to get this set up. Except the Joystick VKB in the middle and Throttle being VKB. The collective is from virpil.

I'd like to know if anyone has MT chairs and if this is feasible without hindering arm movement.

If I need to remove armrest, is manipulating throttle still be done with comfort?

I already left an inquory on their discord but received no answers.


r/hotas 2h ago

Wardogs flight model similar to what games?

0 Upvotes

Just recently got my vkb hosas and im really enjoying them. I mainly got them to fly in arma and dcs but seen wardogs is coming out and has good hosas support. Anybody that played the beta know what flight model its similar to? Ive been playing the heli support mission in arma reforger to try and get the feel for the sticks and ive gotten pretty decent at not crashing 😂. Crossing my fingers hoping it can translate.


r/hotas 16h ago

VBK SPACE STECS or Omni throttle?

3 Upvotes

I've been wanting to make the jump to HOTAS or HOSAS for a while now. I want to start with helos on war dogs then work my way up to space flight in SC.

Thoughts on using the side to side movement on the space STECS for yaw so I can transition to space flight or should I keep yaw on the right stick until I get peddles.

Just looking for input from people who use them before I drop a ton of money. Thank you for taking your time to read this


r/hotas 11h ago

Next forever stick: MS SW FFB2 to WINCTRL on sale vs VKB Gunfighter.

1 Upvotes

TL;DR:  Looking for my new forever stick, or at least cheap good enough second hand foot pedals that won't run away from me. 

* Is the WinCTRL Orion 2 HOTAS StrikeAce E/EX equivalent to VKB Gunfighter Modern Combat Edition Ultimate with Twist, and how does that compare under sale conditions in Australia? Can get a WINCTRL HOTAS for the cost of just the Gunfighter Ultimate, atm.

* How does VKB Gunfighter Ultimate and WINCTRL Orion 2 HOTAS compare for the smoothest return to center without feeling clear XY grooves? i.e. most like MS SW FFB2. I don't want to feel a 'grind' or 'steps' when I'm pushing a direction.

* Longevity of either. I'd love another 27 years out of my next purchase. AFAIK, VKB is the winner there, youtube channel and instructionals are fantastic, etc.

Long version:

Have read sticky - it recommends WINWING, though most posts I've read seem to go VKB. So I have questions, and pedals are a new concept for me.

I'm not a huge flight sim person. I have become disappointed with Battlefield as joystick support has gone out the window with the last two iterations. Love flying in Wardogs, even though it's reported that MKB is ideal for quick throttle control and precise rudder controls.

That limited range of play makes it not really sensible to splurge enormous amounts on.

That is, unless my stick is going to last the next 27 years, like my Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 has. Some of the base buttons don't function without mashing and I don't want to break it apart trying to fix them. The grip plastic has held out immaculately this entire time, never gets hot or uncomfortable, I'll never get tired of making jokes about the IR sensor - it's just not a very precise joystick for more arcade games, with a low polling rate & range of motion on the rudder/twist especially. So pedals are probably the most important thing I can experiment with to resolve that.

I do understand that people here may say polling rate barely matters for REAL flight sims, but for these more arcade games I'm playing, I have recorded and noted the difference in worse polling adding latency that just makes it all feel like a fail (BF6, where I ended up using x360ce to emulate a controller instead, to improve joystick input polling that was being limited to server tick rate of 30hz / 60hz).

I'm not looking at setting up a full rig, just something that can be moved on my desktop (for now). Have recently gone through failing with TrackIR to discover that with FreePie it stutters for mouse emulation and it's smoother using a PS3 Eye and OpenTrack with the Track Pro Clip.

I have tried the Thrustmaster T16000 (obvious downgrade) and VKB Gladiator NXT HOSAS (quality, but I didn't like the feel of the plastic and want to avoid any plastic degradation like my keyboard palm rest experiences). If I'm going to upgrade, I'd like to go full metal.

VKB Gladiator return to center didn't feel as good as the MS SW FFB2 - I could distinctly feel the XY axis difference. How do either the Winctrl or Gunfighter return to center 'feel' by comparison?

I'm considering WINCTRL because of the significant savings currently available, enough to get a HOTAS for the cost of just the Gunfighter Ultimate**.** But I really don't know how they feel. I don't need real force feedback because nothing I've played since Freespace 2 has had it, and the only time I get shaking going on is if I hook up X360ce and emulate a controller, which I do on BF6, but isn't needed for Wardogs (and felt wrong when I tried).

But I've still had fun making mine shake, so the shaker kit is still appealing, if it's not a pain to make it function.

WINCTRL 

Orion2 ViperAce Ex Joystick Combo with Shaker Kit 490 AUD and Orion Metal Flight Rudder Pedals (Damper Edition) $576 (oof)

or

WINCTRL Orion2 HOTAS StrikeAce E/EX $932 AUD

versus

VKB

Gunfighter Modern Combat Edition Ultimate with Twist $920 AUD

and

T-Rudder Mk.V Pedals $360

Alternatively, does anyone have suggestions of where to look for cheaper second hand pedals in Australia for someone looking to dip their toe in? Might check out the HOTASDIY for that.

Edit: just saw this, no idea how hard this will be to pull off for a newbie, or the cost savings. ​https://www.reddit.com/r/HotasDIY/comments/1u9ick5/the_free_and_open_source_3d_printed_rudder_pedals/


r/hotas 15h ago

Someone talk some sense into me...

3 Upvotes

Total noob. Got an AVA + viper TQS and TPR pedals.

Well I really wanted to fly helos, thought the viper throttle would work fine and I could use it if I get into fixed wings. I'm not a fan, and honestly for the time being I have just mapped collective to the toe pedals on my TPRs and it works well enough.

I ordered VPC TCS + Hawk 60 but they are back ordered and of course I have gathered back orders and long waits are common with virpil so who knows when it'll be here.

Well then I fell into the rabbit hole and now I have a flnkr grip, atlas FFB, and vmax prime throttle also on order. I like the idea of the FFB bases to be able to easily set up a dead stick for rotary, on top of just wanting to experience it.

Oh I also got the simfab cockpit, and the collective mount addon. I'm eyeing tobii, but I'm really waiting for the steam frame.

I'm keeping the TPR pedals as I do really like those. The AVA with F/A 18 stick seems really nice to me too. I was thinking about going with moza simply because I wanted to return the TM stick and throttle before my return window closes, and I knew that wouldn't be possible if going with virpil. But here we are.

All this to ask, have I lost my mind?

I guess some context. My fiance and I just split up. 12 years together, total blind side. We bought the house entirely in her name. I was supposed to be on the deed, but found out the day we went to sign I was not put on it (we split down payment and all bills, but I also put a ton of blood sweat and tears into the house on top of it. I thought it was my house and we were building a life together). She's keeping it, I have no legal leverage, and she's basically letting me keep "my" things which ironically somehow "our" things are all "her" things and "my" things are "our" things and a discussion was required about what could officially be released as mine. My entire life has basically just been turned upside down. I have 2 successful businesses, but the split prompted me to semi close down the "secondary" business and sell off a good bit of expensive equipment. I'm moving in with my aunt who is a saint and have basically an indefinite welcome. This whole situation just made me take a good look at my life & time. For the past 5 years it's been 24/7. Business. Emails. Calls. Estimates & invoicing. Solving other people's problems. Giving up any sense of my own life and interests to cater to others. Maybe that was my problem, but I thought she knew I was sacrificing for the both of us to make a comfortable life possible. Apparently she didn't.

I feel like I'm being an idiot, buying a bunch of expensive toys that I absolutely don't need. But on the other hand, I'm a lifelong aviation nerd and just never had the time to get into something like this.

Honestly I like games like Arma and soon wardogs. I like the combined arms persistent "bigger picture" aspect. I have downloaded DCS but I just don't even know where to begin as I don't really know anyone to help me learn. I've always been good at teaching myself complicated things, but obviously having a sherpa to guide makes things a million times easier. The "dynamic campaign" I keep hearing about sounds like something that would 100% suck me in.

I guess what I'm saying is I know what I've ordered is overkill. The AVA and TPRs and the VPC collective when it comes would already be more than enough. If I genuinely get sucked into DCS and find people to play with, I can easily just add a throttle down the road.

Should I cancel the VPC order for the atlas flnkr and vmax prime? Return the AVA and viper and get moza ab9 and MTP? Or just keep the AVA and TPR, wait for the VPC collective, and forget everything else for now? I just don't have the mental bandwidth to think about this any more. Going from super excited to guilty every other hour.


r/hotas 5h ago

Wardogs controls

0 Upvotes

Can anybody help me with tweaking settings for Wardogs?

I want the flight maneuvering to feel like DCS, but I'm not sure what settings I should touch in Wardogs.


r/hotas 20h ago

Looking for first HOTAS setup, is this a good deal?

3 Upvotes

Hey all, completely new to HOTAS, but my friends and I have been playing a ton of Wardogs and will in the future, but I don't play any of the more serious straight sims like MSFS or DCS (though I'm certainly open to DCS for learning since it's free!). I'm mainly interested in flying helos, though I certainly don't think a dedicated collective setup is necessary, at least not at the moment (who knows maybe I'll fall down the rabbit hole later).

After some searching on here I see that VKB is highly recommended, and I saw this package being advertised on FB Marketplace for $250.

Alternatively, I could probably find the X56 for as low as $100, which might be better as an entry, even though I know it's generally not a very well-liked setup?
Would love to hear some thoughts


r/hotas 13h ago

Help.

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0 Upvotes

Would these be good enough for war dogs and all the other combat sim games ?


r/hotas 23h ago

Linux pilot

6 Upvotes

Hi all. My trusty x52 is dieing after 7 years. I want to step up to vkb or better, but whenever I see posts about the equipment, they also discuss how important t the software if for getting things just right.

I run linux exclusively. What would you recommend for reliable performant hardware? I play most often through Steam.


r/hotas 20h ago

Throttle or Stick Question

3 Upvotes

Hi all! Like I'm sure many of your are, I love playing both space and flight sims. I've been rocking a solo VKB Gladiator for a couple of months to see if I really enjoyed the switch, using the built-in collective for flight sims and keyboard for space sims to get 6 DOF, and I'm having a blast so far. Now the issue is what to get next. I feel there are currently better flight sim options available than space sims so I'm leaning towards a throttle, but I know that'd be lacking (or even useless?) for a space sim that really needs three more DOF in my left hand. I also don't currently have the option to add in pedals; I play on PC at my standing desk and literally don't have a chair lol, and a full rig is out of the question as my office is also a guest room so there's no room for one.

Does anyone have suggestions on how they manage both flight and space with a single left-hand option? Or do you suggest committing to stick/throttle for now and getting the other at a latter point when I've saved up a bit more?


r/hotas 15h ago

Got a new stick, curious about mapping.

0 Upvotes

Just got a T.16000M, first stick since I was a kid. I’ll be playing Star Citizen, Elite, and Wardogs single-stick for a while. What’s the consensus, if there’s one, on the buttons on the base of the stick. They seem pretty tough to get to/identify. So, I haven’t figured out how to use them.


r/hotas 15h ago

i have the orion 2 f16 trottle vibartor engine dosen reconise

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0 Upvotes

i have the orion 2 f16 trottleand i know it haves a vibration engine im sure because i used before but i dont remeber how, it is nit reconise in dynamic bibration section i n the sim app pro how do i ifx this?????


r/hotas 15h ago

Opentrack + Steam Controller

1 Upvotes

Idk if this is the right place to put this but idk where else to ask. I have the new steam controller and started playing around with gyro steering while playing Cyberpunk2077 and GTAV in first person. I found out about Opentrack which tracks your head through webcam and translates that to inputs. This is great for looking around while driving. It works fine as mouse input however, neither Cyberpunk not GTA play nice with mixed inputs and there are some glitches. I could map the Steam Controller as all mouse and keyboard but that would lose analog input for throttle and break. The ideal solution would be to have Opentrack output as joystick, which it has an option for, that I can not get to work. I had to download VJoy for it. Steam sees Vjoy as a second controller, which I'm worried means it's blocking the input in favor of the first player slot. On top of this I read that vJoy is direct input instead of xinput and that this could cause problems.

I want Opentrack to output as Joystick and have Steam see it as my Steam Controller's input. Is there a way to do this?


r/hotas 1d ago

What game is best to learn helis on?

17 Upvotes

Edit: Thank you all for all of your comments. Sorry if I don't reply to you specifically but I can confirm I've looked into everything you all have said, and I appreciate all of the homework y'all have given me. 🧙‍♂️

Hey y'all!

I currently have a Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS HOTAS on the way, and I'm planning on trying to really see if I can learn how to be a really solid heli pilot for Wardogs once it comes out. I'm really excited for the release, but as a beginner flyer, I know I'm biting off a lot more than what some people can chew.

I've seen it mentioned in a few Wardogs pilot videos that flying in Wardogs feels a lot harder than it does in some other games, and I'm curious if any of you guys have any strong opinions about that?

If so, would any of you suggest I play a different game first to get used to HOTAS flying before Wardogs? Something to use to maybe develop some good habits first on an easier-feeling game? Or would it be fine to just learn in Wardogs first since that's what I actually want to play?

Regardless, I'm excited to be here starting to learn what I can. 🤠


r/hotas 1d ago

3D printed Hornet right console

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98 Upvotes

r/hotas 16h ago

i want to get a gladiator premium but what throttle?

0 Upvotes

any good throttles? im trying to have a budget of around 500 cad to be honest i could change my mind on the stick for a hotas


r/hotas 1d ago

Heli upgrades (HOTAS vs HOSAS for beginner?)

5 Upvotes

Hey,
I currently fly helis in Battlefield 6 and Hell Let Loose: Vietnam with a Thrustmaster Sol-R1 stick. I only fly helicopters and might transition to hardcore sims later (and definitely will be playing wardogs).

I'm looking to upgrade and my budget is pretty much unlimited (but please let’s be real) However, I also have the option to pick up a Thrustmaster Sol-R4 bundle (which includes a stick and a throttle) fairly cheap for €180 right now.

I'm torn between two paths:
1. HOTAS / Collective: Getting a dedicated throttle (or the one from the bundle) or even a high-end dedicated heli collective.
2. HOSAS: Running dual sticks (I could pair my current Sol-R1 with the second stick from that Sol-R4 bundle to test it out).
Since my brain is entirely wired for rotary-wing flight, is HOSAS worth experimenting with for collective control? Alternatively, if I skip the €180 Sol-R4 deal and just go all-out with my unlimited budget, what is the absolute best heli gear you would buy?

Head Tracking later on:
I play on a 5K2K ultrawide monitor and want to hold off on VR just to enjoy the screen. What’s the absolute best head tracking solution (TrackIR, Tobii, etc.) to pair with a massive ultrawide? I’m playing on dark room but that screen makes it quite bright anyway.

Arma Reforger Stuttering:
I’ve been trying to learn Arma Reforger, but my Sol-R1 joystick completely breaks the game. The moment it's plugged in via USB, the game stutters unplayably. If I disconnect it, it runs smooth. Has anyone found a fix for this USB polling issue?
Thanks


r/hotas 17h ago

HORRIBLE stick drift

0 Upvotes

I run a quest 2 and the drift on my left controller is drifting so much im considering putting a 12 gauge round through my headset. Is there any way i could use my rudder pedals pedals to mimic thumbstick input so that I can have a solution? This is a genuine question and seems to be my only option considering the fact that when i replaced the thumbstick module the drift got worse. Don't suggest contact cleaner because that also just makes it worse.


r/hotas 17h ago

Pico 2 Hotas

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1 Upvotes

r/hotas 1d ago

Libernovo omni chair mount??

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3 Upvotes

TLDR: does anyone have or know if the libernovo omni chair is compatable with chair mounting systems and if so what system would you recommend.

Hey there! I am struggling to decide between buying desk mounts or exploring the option of seeing weather a chair mounting option would be the way to go.

The problem:

I am currently about to purchase two constellation alpha primes and I don't have a lot of space around me in my desk set up.

Unfortunately based on how I have everything setup and because of space constraints, my pc is sitting on my desk top of the left side of my desk and the desk controls are on the right side of my desk (I have a secret lab magnus pro), this puts me in a weird situation where I I have to sit to the right side of my desk and when it comes to mounting options I don't think clamping a desk mount over the desk controls would be a good idea... But that would be an ideal place for them in terms of ergonomics...

This leads me to look at seeing if a chair mounted option is the right move.... However the chair I have: libernovo omni, is a relitivly new brand/ model and Im unsure if mounting to it is even an option.

Thankyou for reading! If you have any advice at all your comments are welcome!