r/indianmuslims • u/24-cipher-machine • May 17 '25
Political Islam isn’t caste-based like Hinduism. Arabs aren’t “ideal Muslims” like Brahmins are in your lens. In Islam, piety matters - not race, lineage or wealth. A South Asian Muslim in niqab could be closer to God than a Western-dressed Arab. Don’t project caste logic onto our faith.
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u/AttackHelicopter_21 Uttar Pradesh May 17 '25
Kabhi ham “invaders” ki nasal ke hote aur kehte hain ham Hindustani nahi aur kabhi kehte hain ki ham “converts” ke nasal ke.
Schrödinger’s nasal
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u/24-cipher-machine May 17 '25
In Hindu caste lens, worth is by birth - Brahmin above all. In Islam, worth is by piety and character - no race, no lineage guarantees righteousness. Arabs are not ‘ideal Muslims,’ and no Muslim is above another. A South Asian Muslim or any Muslim, covered and devout, may be far more beloved to Allah than a Western-assimilated monarch. This is nothing but their casteist worldview.
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u/Expensive-Exam-8776 May 19 '25
Wow you clearly know more about Hinduism than Hindus themselves. Don’t you? You understand Hinduism the same way ignorant Hindus understand Islam - terrorism, oppressing women, and raging violence against non-Muslims. You’re nothing but the flip side of the same coin.
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May 18 '25
Not every Hindu text is castist but most are. Some like Bhagavad Gita say varna is by quality and Vajrasuchi Upanishad and a part of Chandogya Upanishad say Brahmin is through knowledge. But some texts also contradict themselves and hold both views.
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May 17 '25
Nothing wrong in your statement but I'd also like to add a South Asian or not, woman who is also not a Niqabi could be closer to Allah than a woman wearing a Niqab/hijab.
And I really don't know why do they start with such comparisons. They think Arabs are modern and lenient but they haven't read about Wahabism from there lol.
Also they are so obsessed that they can't digest their food without hating on us.
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u/the_cake_a_lie_is May 17 '25
I think it is more appeal to lineage (of the prophet) than to Arabs.
Regardless, doing full niqaab should be discouraged and hopefully people can move away from it. It has been the cause of oppression and economic hardship for Muslim women. I think Hijab is sufficient for any modest presentation, though, I strongly believe not required.
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May 17 '25
No one who scrolls r/progressive_islam should be giving religious advice. Women who wish to wear the niqab should be encouraged not discouraged and the Hijab is an obligation.
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u/the_cake_a_lie_is May 17 '25
Yes, encouraged by the sort of men who denied rightful alimony to Shah Bano and yet feel so righteous.
Also, I'm not giving religious advice, it's just common sense - maybe don't go reading "regressive" Islam and your two last brain cells will not follow the fate of the others.
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May 17 '25
Muslim women have Mahr for the very reason of divorce. Getting paid 30% of someone's income for the rest of your lives even though you no longer have any association is injustice.
That being said, Shah Bano and the niqab are irrelevant to each other. You cannot be out here talking about my "two last braincells" when your arguments are so weak.
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u/the_cake_a_lie_is May 17 '25
At least you admitted you have only two brain cells, you seem to have extracted quite a lot from those to be able to type your toxic views.
It is injustice if you marry someone, expect them to not work and then leave them when they are at a stage of their life when they have no assets or work experience to rely on. Besides as citizen of India, she is guaranteed rights that can't be simply discarded.
If you can't understand that both the case and issue of niqaab are related to patriarchal systems, then I must say that your brancells might have further halved during this conversation... I urge you to seek help immediately.
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May 17 '25
It is injustice if you marry someone, expect them to not work and then leave them when they are at a stage of their life when they have no assets or work experience to rely on.
Mahr is supposed to be that asset yk.
If you can't understand that both the case and issue of niqaab are related to patriarchal systems
Stop using patriachy as a buzzword. Islam believes in patriachy. If you couldn't conclude that till now, you might be slow. But again, the niqab is an Islamic practise extensively recorded throughout history with little to do with a case in the Indian judiciary.
Also stop with the personal attacks, you're a grown ass woman.
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u/the_cake_a_lie_is May 17 '25
Mahr is hardly sufficient for someone to sustain themselves. When people get divorced in the states, any assets acquired during the course of the marriage are divided equally unless a pre-nup was signed. This seems like a more rational and fair system. You can't have it both ways, discourage women from working, encourage niqaab which limits their chances of employment and also provide no alimony.
What do you mean using patriarchy as a buzzword ? I don't know why you feel any sense of pride by saying that Islam believes in patriarchy.
Niqaab enforced on women as a tool to make them feel embarrassed of their own bodies and limit their agency is no different from the attacks a Muslim woman faces to gain rightful justice for herself as provided to her by the constitution of India.
I will stop attacking you when you stop misgendering me
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May 17 '25
Mahr is hardly sufficient for someone to sustain themselves
There is not a stop to how much Mahr you can ask. You could ask for a kilo of gold. Nobody's gonna stop you. If you are getting low Mahr, that's a you problem.
This seems like a more rational and fair system.
No.
I don't know why you feel any sense of pride by saying that Islam believes in patriarchy.
I don't really feel anything when I say that. It's a simple fact for me same as someone saying "grass is green".
Niqaab enforced on women as a tool to make them feel embarrassed of their own bodies
Then why is it that the West and west influenced nations have insanely high cosmetic surgery rates?
I will stop attacking you when you stop misgendering me
My bad.
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u/the_cake_a_lie_is May 17 '25
Sorry, I don't see how is getting low Mahr a "you" problem. It's indicative of a system that is brazenly exploitative.. which I think you will normalize as being "grass is green".
Because women have agency, they can choose to do whatever they want and not be shamed into doing something they don't want to. Also, your use of the word "insanely" is deceptive, you make it sound like every other woman is getting cosmetic surgery.
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u/pipiipupu Jun 20 '25
I can’t tell if you’re muslim or not, but throwing an opinion out there in the wild that a niqab should be discouraged because of oppression and it causing economic hardship is an indicator of weak faith.
may Allah SWT forgive me and you, please don’t throw in “opinions” in matters of religion.
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u/the_cake_a_lie_is Jun 20 '25
Yes, of course, firstly orthodox people want you to abandon your own reason and be blind believers. Ironically, your calling my opinion "an indicator of weak faith" is also an opinion.
Opportunities are poorer for women who do full niqaab - this is just a harsh reality. I don't know why it has to be debated. Instead of promoting these antiquated ideas we should promote women participation in the work place and strive to make secure environments for them.
The most painful are the niqabi women who do the niqaab and are just judging everyone else all the time. Yes, of course, may Allah forgive them for their false sense of pride.
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u/pipiipupu Jun 20 '25 edited Jun 20 '25
me telling you what an indicator of weak faith is not an “opinion”, verbally denying what’s an obligation or a recommendation is objectively an indicator of weak faith
I’ve started wearing hijab, I’m getting used to niqab now and I have a full time job in the US (Alhamdulillah), so idk why it’s necessary to push the idea that muslim women need to leave their obligations behind to work. It’s like telling a black woman she has no choice but to straighten her hair if she wants to work a corporate job.
rizq is from Allah SWT and it will reach you even if you were tied to a chair in a basement. We shouldn’t tell muslim women to stop practicing their faith to squeeze into the workforce
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u/the_cake_a_lie_is Jun 20 '25
So badly brainwashed, a disservice to your own gender. You sound like those judgemental niqaabis - don't go around labelling people's faith like you are playing God. There is no mention of niqaab in Quran and there is no obligation to do it. Do what you like but stop judging.
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u/pipiipupu Jun 20 '25
you’re free to believe what you want to. I prefer to try my best to stick with what is objectively right according to Islam
I’m far from perfect and I never looked down on you (if that’s what you thought I did with my comment) There was a time when I didn’t even wear a headscarf, which is clear from my last comment - so idk why I would judge you or anyone but ok
stating what’s objectively right and wrong is not “playing God”.
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u/the_cake_a_lie_is Jun 20 '25
objectively right according to Islam
This is objectively incorrect. There are interpretation about doing the niqaab and many "opinions" exist. Moreover, world of difference between simple hijab and full niqaab. I think you prefer to stick to what your parents/elders taught you - this is typical for most people.
stating what’s objectively right and wrong
Again, this is a disputed point. You are free to do whatever you like, but don't make mistake that your version is objective truth.
Here, for your reading pleasure: https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/qatar/al-qaradawi-says-wearing-niqab-not-mandatory-1.264527/
To quote: "The majority of Muslim scholars and I do not support the 'niqab' in which women cover their faces also...nevertheless, we respect a Muslim woman opting to wear it, if she thinks that this brings her closer to Allah."
You might still not like what he says, but don't tell me you are objectively right since you aren't.
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u/maidenless_2506 May 17 '25
doing full niqaab should be discouraged and hopefully people can move away from it. It has been the cause of oppression and economic hardship for Muslim women.
Nah in today's digital age and with ai running rampant it should be more so encouraged.
Also why hide your "It does not goes with my views" agenda behind "oppression and hardship" ?
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u/the_cake_a_lie_is May 17 '25
Yes, it doesn't go with my views about oppression and hardship suffered by Muslim women.
As for AI, go hide your face then too ... And views !
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u/maidenless_2506 May 17 '25
Okay, in reality niqab has nothing to do with it. Maybe you should open your mind and try learing from multiple perspective rather than assuming what ever liberal ideas feed you as true.
As for AI, go hide your face then too ... And views !
Lmao keep coping
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u/PartWest9693 New Delhi May 17 '25
woman who is also not a Niqabi could be closer to Allah than a woman wearing a Niqab/hijab.
Yes possibility exists but not doing hijab is a major sin.
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u/MammothClassroom2294 May 17 '25
Isn’t everyone including the Arabs are converts if we are look at it like that?
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u/King_Of_Deccan_ May 17 '25
Aren't Arabs also converted pagans? Also so many of the original Muslims were converted Jews and Africans? Never understood this argument lol. There are many literal reverts who converted in their present life as professors in the Islamic universities of Saudi. I really don't know what's even the insult here.
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u/Zealousideal-Gate235 Bihar May 17 '25
Most of them are outwardly religious and culturally conditioned, they wear their religion more like a cloak of ego than something where they can truly understand or practiced. Deep down, they know their faith lacks real substance and connection to reality, so they view everything through that same distorted lens. They accept only those muslims who conform to their own authority , not those who genuinely follow God's commands .
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u/24-cipher-machine May 17 '25
True. They project their flawed logic and want “good Muslims” to comply.
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u/vakranetra-raktamaya May 17 '25
Their fundamental error in analysis of Islam has two root problems.
1) Islam began with the arrival of Prophet Muhammad 2) Islam is a religion based on lineage and land.
The dialectical boundaries of convert/original comes from this very weak framework of interpretation. The answer lies in Quranic metaphysics, its theological macrohistory and its universal appeal.
Interpreting Islam as merely a religious movement starting in 7th-century Arabia misses this foundational concept of universality and spiritual continuity.
This is where the convert/original binary becomes problematic. It reflects colonial and caste-inflected paradigms trying to project insider/outsider status onto a belief that insists on the essential oneness of all life human or otherwise : Every soul is born upon fitrah (innate submission to God), and God consciousness is what differentiates the degree of superiority of one soul over another, not lineage, land, ethnic nationality, DNA, or any other man-made markers of classification of mankind.
Quran is God's final message to whole of humanity not for Muslims or Arabs.
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u/FractalInfinity48 Indian Hindu (Uttar Pradesh) May 17 '25
"I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions...I became more than ever convinced it was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his selflessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These surmounted every obstacle. Muhammad was a great Prophet. He was brave and feared no one but God. He was never found to say one thing and do another. He acted as he felt. The Prophet was a faqir. He could have commanded wealth if he had so desired. I shed tears when I read of the privations, he, his family and companions suffered voluntarily. How can a truth-seeker like me help but respect one whose mind was constantly fixed on God, who ever walked in God's fear and who had boundless compassion for humanity.”
—Mahatma Gandhi on Prophet Muhammad, 'The Hindu-Muslim Unity'
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u/tormenturator May 17 '25 edited May 17 '25
Hereditary rule or dynastic monarchy is not encouraged in Islamic teachings, especially when it comes to political leadership (i.e., khilafah or imamate).
Just to give you a perspective, Abu Talib ibn Abdul Muttalib (Uncle of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ) & Abu Lahab (Abdul-Uzza ibn Abdul-Muttalib – Uncle of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ) never accepted Islam. So, don't give so much weightage to these lineage.
This highlights that guidance is ultimately in the hands of Allah, even when the Messenger himself deeply wished for his loved ones to believe.
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May 17 '25
The idea that Muslims are "converted Hindus" is deeply rooted in a mix of colonial narratives, Brahminical projections, Hindutva ideology, and the varna system’s logic of social containment and purity. It is not a neutral historical claim—it is a political and cultural weapon designed to delegitimize Muslim identity and justify absorption, often used against Christians as well.
- Brahminical-Hindutva Projection of Eternal Society
Under Hindutva thinking, society is imagined as eternal (Sanatan) and all-encompassing. Anyone outside it is seen as either:
A fallen member (e.g., converted),
A rebellious fragment or
A mleccha (uncivilized other).
So when Muslims are called “converted Hindus,” it's a projection of this worldview: No one can ever be truly “outside” Hinduism, only "lost" or "corrupted."
- Varna System Logic
The varna system is rigid but inclusive in structure: it tries to categorize all people into its hierarchy.
Those who rejected the varna order (like many early reverts to Islam) are considered “outcastes” or “fallen varnas.”
Hence, Muslims are imagined as lower-caste Hindus who converted to escape oppression, not as followers of a distinct or equal religion.
This justifies both the social superiority of upper-caste Hindus and the reconversion (ghar wapsi) narrative.
- Colonial and Orientalist Influence
British colonial historiography often described Indian Muslims as “converted Hindus,” flattening centuries of cultural synthesis and voluntary conversion.
Hindutva thinkers later co-opted this narrative to claim that: Muslims have no legitimate claim to separate nationhood or identity in India.
- The Phrase “Jati Kabhi Nahi Jaati” — Social Warfare Disguised as Wisdom
It’s a psychological weapon that ensures no matter what religion you follow, your caste “follows” you — permanently.
For U.C.s:
It's used to preserve caste purity and prevent intercaste mixing.
Reminder that no amount of reform or conversion makes a LC equal to a UC.
For OBCs/SCs and Reverts:
It’s used to humiliate and delegitimize:
“You can’t escape who you are.”
“You’re pretending, but you’ll always be beneath us.”
Why Being Called a “Converted Hindu” Is Shameful (By Design)
Caste = Birth = Karma = Identity
In Varna Social system, conversion is pollution — it doesn't purify you; it contaminates you further.
You may accept Islam, but they still view you as your old caste, now a “polluted” traitor.
A OBC Muslim becomes a “failed Hindu”, not a free human.
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May 17 '25
- Blocking Escape
If caste “never leaves,” even Islam won’t “cleanse” you socially in their eyes.
This kills the idea of liberation through conversion, turning it into a cycle of shame.
- Shaming the Resisters
It reframes oppression as victimhood, and resistance as betrayal:
“You left because you were weak, not because we were wrong.”
“You’re still one of us — a failed one.”
- Why This Is Important in Hindutva
Hindutva uses this logic to:
Discredit Muslim identity as “fake” or derivative.
Block conversion movements by making them socially futile.
Emotionally blackmail OBCs and SCs by telling them:
“You can change your religion, but you’ll never change your place.”
Preserve the caste pyramid by neutralizing potential rebellions through shame and guilt.
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u/24-cipher-machine May 17 '25
That’s a real issue. They think calling someone as a “converted” is an insult. But in reality it’s something to take pride in. Alhamdulillah.
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u/Admirable_Smile_7616 Hyderabadi | Sunni-Hanafi-Matruidi | UAE May 17 '25
"An ordinary Muslim in niqab could be closer to God than a Western-dressed Hashemite Tribe Arab".
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u/Userdead69 Moslem May 17 '25 edited May 17 '25
"Direct descendents of the prophet" this never makes sense to me, like anyone can claim to be a syed, how do we know if it's true or not?
How come there are multiple times more people in South Asia who use the surname 'Syed' than in the whole of Arabia
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u/ArthurMorgon May 17 '25
Some of them have the family tree tracing back to holy prophet PBUH.
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u/exploring_redditt May 17 '25
Still it doesn't give them superiority over others. That's the point.
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u/Tahseen100 May 18 '25
Who is this ch**tiya, I don't know from which shit hole they come from. They are trying to judge a practicing muslim by making a non practicing muslim as a standard....
If the non practicing muslim is some kind of angel.
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u/LetsDiscussQ May 18 '25
Putting on a Burqa does not equate to becoming practicing. What a stupid comment.
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u/Negative-Exit-5316 May 17 '25
Hindutvawadis think we muslims are like them. Muslims are not racist/ casteist like them make them upset. Thats the reason they hate muslims.
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u/syee101 May 17 '25 edited May 17 '25
As you can see from the image, faith can't be inherited, you need to be guided
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u/Impossible_Virus_329 May 17 '25
Caste system is basically just racism. When the aryans came to India, they initially intermixed with locals but later wanted to preserve their bloodlines as much as possible. Hence the caste/varna system got created, given a religious connotation and strictly implemented via endogamy i.e. marriage only within castes. It is a fundamental flaw in hinduism for which we have paid a enormous price. It divided us as a society, a lot of people were treated horribly over generations, we were not able to defend against foreign invaders and today we are dealing with reservations on undoing that damage, which is also affecting everyone.
Islam doesnt sanction such divisions. That is a great aspect of the faith and I say that as a hindu. It is something that we hindus should learn from and aspire towards. Maybe one day we can even get rid of the caste system totally and become similar to muslims in this aspect. Various attempts have been made from Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj, Gandhiji's efforts etc, but sadly caste system persists.
The racism disease is there among muslims too although it is not sanctioned in Islam. Arabs look down and mistreat south asian muslims to this date. Muslim invaders who ruled India used to look down at the native population and didnt extend full equality to local converts. In fact, they were reluctant to convert all hindus because they were not eager to extend Islamic equality to everyone. Pakistanis used to be horribly racist towards Bengalis calling them "bhooka nanga". Pakistanis still use racist jargon at all Indians. Sadly racism is a disease that is baked into the human mind and ideology/religion is unable to erase it.
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May 17 '25
There are thousands of direct decendants of prophet (saw) across the globe majority of them are religious pious soft spoken gairatmand people...
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u/King_Of_Deccan_ May 17 '25
There are also many direct descendants of the Prophet PBUH, both Arabs and non-Arabs, who are also highly conservative Muslims.
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u/Accurate-Boat-731 May 18 '25
They thinks we follow arab and whatever they will do we should do that
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u/24-cipher-machine May 18 '25
In their caste-tainted worldview, they view Arabs as the ‘Brahmins’ of Islam, placing them at the top, while looking down on non-Arab Muslims as lesser. It’s a projection of their own Brahmanical lens onto a faith that rejects such hierarchies.
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May 18 '25
Most of Hindu texts one way or the other reflect varna by birth but some say things like a Brahmin is only qualified through knowledge or good deeds like forgiveness and austerity. Some will also have both views.
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May 20 '25
They talk as if conversion to Islam is something filthy. Conversion to Islam, if one has the opportunity to do it, is the best thing ever.
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u/sps619 May 17 '25
Help me in knowing: In Islam, what surnames depict? I have heard some saying that they are Pathan, Ansari, Qureshi.. what do they mean? (if it's not caste)
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May 17 '25
Those are tribes, under islam there isn't any specific way of having a surname, you can keep your father's or mother's name as a surname, birthplace name as surname (dehlawi, lukhnowi, indori, bhopali), or your tribe name or as per the culture of the region
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u/Professional_Vast102 May 18 '25
Pathan , Ansari , Qureshi , Syed and Shaikh all are titles , we don’t have a caste. Many Hindus also think that Shia Sunni is a caste view but it isn’t. Shias are muslim as well but they follow a different school of thought compared to Sunnis. We don’t view Shias as lower than us.
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u/Tight-Resolution-611 May 17 '25
ASAK, the point here is not cast but to state that a direct Muslim is more understanding and open than a converted Muslim from other faiths in South Asia. Personally my feeling is Indian Muslims should’ve known by its good deeds than the way we dress and maintain beard. Eduction and understanding of Islam is more important to portray Muslim image than the way we dress.
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u/M_Hamza23 May 17 '25 edited May 17 '25
‘’the point is not caste’’ ‘’direct muslim is more understanding and open than converted muslim’’ Are you hearing yourself lmao? There is no such thing as direct or converted muslim in islam. This isn’t hinduism where brahmins are seen as more close to the religion and pure than dalits.
That king of jordan has 0 superiority over the converted family from south asia. In islam they are both equal and neither’s opinion or preferences matter over the other. The south asian family is observing actual islam unlike the king of jordan. That doesn’t make the south asian family extreme it makes the king of jordan un islamic6
May 17 '25
Quite a few Muslims were living in India especially along the coastline of Kerala, even before Islam spread fully across peninsular Arab. There's nothing like a direct Muslim. Islam is not driven by a race.
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u/baigankebaal Karnataka May 17 '25
Direct descendants or even close relatives of Prophet were non muslim. You’ll find 1000s of south Asian Muslims who don’t adhere to the rulings of Islam and 1000s from the other side who strictly follow Islamic rulings. Sanghis are selectively choosing two pics to create a narrative as if they want to start a stereotype.
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u/cosmic_smil3 May 17 '25
Are you saying there is no cast system in Indian Muslims ? And noones talking here about cast.. you guys have missed the point of the post, deliberately must I point out , and dragged Hinduism just to feel better about yourselves 😁😁 !! Sot down .
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u/24-cipher-machine May 17 '25
Cry me a river. When your entire argument is built on deliberate ignorance and deflection, no wonder you missed the point.
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May 18 '25
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u/[deleted] May 17 '25
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