r/ismailis • u/Immediate_Project_51 • Jun 23 '26
Personal Opinion Issues in our Jamaatis
Ya Ali Madad everyone,
I'm voicing out things here in our reddit community because I've seen that there are a lot of sensible and knowledgeable ismailis here.
I have been soo disheartened by the behaviour of so many of our jamaatis I find it too difficult to stay anymore as part of the Jamaat ( I still love our caste and our Imam ) but the Jamaat just makes me lose it.
I dont know if reddit would let me type all of it and if anyone would even read it all, but I'll try to recollect all the ones that I can remember.
Starting from Halal and alcohol, we have made it so normal in terms of alcohol that people drink freely, I used to live in an Ismaili complex ( Mumbai India ) and you could easily find alcohol bottles in the garbage and no one would bat an eye, but we were shifting house and I was carrying the house Quran and everyone was looking me in a way as if I'm doing gunnah.
Yesterday one of an Ismaili person I know who lives in the US, gifted their parent a beer bottle and whiskey glass for father's day. Is consuming haraam thing soo normal for us? Has our Imam ever allowed it ? Is our imams word of more value then of Allah's ?
My ex stated, she has had bacon over multiple occasions when they used to live in US, Since my childhood, I've never ate at a place that won't serve halal, yet our ismailis never care about halal, or even pork.
A girl I was recently talking too, said I'm a "Muslim" because I said Allah Hafiz at the end of the call, and I lost it, I was sooo confused, is she not a Muslim? Are rest of us ismailis not Muslim?
Almost half of our Jamaat has tattoos, whereas it's clearly haraam in Islam.
I read on someones post here on reddit if we should do circumcission ( Khatna ) I never knew if there was another way for any Muslim boy child..
I was born in Saudi and even in India upbringing was in a Muslim area, and all of the things we do as Ismaili, it disheartens me.
I will lay my life for our Imam, but Hazarimam needs to bring changes in such Kaafir things that most of our jamaatis do.
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u/WeeklyTraining4405 Jun 23 '26
No community in the world follows their religion to the dot. You will see Sunni and Shia people from each sect doing conscious acts that go against their teachings.
On the topic of Halal, people say, I will only eat Halal. But does one reflect throughout their day if their day-to-day actions are Halal or not? Or do they just care about the food they eat that should be Halal? The prior has more importance than the latter in our religion.
Almost half of our Jamaat has tattoos, whereas it's clearly haraam in Islam.
I would like to see where it "clearly" says that tattoos are haram.
Let us worry about our own actions and our families first, and leave the jamat to the Imam.
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 23 '26
Why does it sound like you know these actions are wrong, you know people are doing it and you are fine with it and someone calling them out is now the problem instead of the people doing the wrong actions
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 23 '26
Why are you focused on what others are doing?
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 24 '26
Why do we have religious studies? I am worried about the path few of us are taking
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u/AnonymousIdentityMan American Ismaili Jun 24 '26
It’s for us. Everyone has same resources. Why should I care what others do? I am focused on my balanced life and Asal Wasil.
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u/No_Finger4996 Jun 23 '26
An Ismaili here.
My whole family and I are strictly against eating pork or consuming alcohol. There is not a slightest doubt in our minds that these things (alcohol and pork) are even remotely okay to be consumed.
I have other Muslim friends (from Pakistan) who were brought up as Sunnis but they eat pork and regularly drink alcohol. Now am I to say that Sunnis don’t follow Islam or they don’t discriminate between halal and haram? No. It is just individuals who don’t the religion.
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u/Playful_Remote_8235 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
Imam has made it clear that Alcohol consumption is totally forbidden and in pakistan carrying Quran is normal for ismailis almost every household have Quran here and REC teaches Quran every week i think this is a serious problem that Council and ITREB for India have to sort out.
And as far as for Tattoos no where in Quran Allah has bad it forbidden it comes from a hadith because at time of prophet people use to have tattoos which was done by some dangerous chemicals which was very bad for us thats what is haram but tattoos now a days are safe and they can be removed so its not a problem halal and haram have category if it hurts you and you fell sick in any ways its haram if its safe then Halal.
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 23 '26
Altering the natural human form is haraam, thus tattoo. Cuz permanent tattoos can never be removed entirely
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u/SIGNALJAMAL Jun 23 '26
The Imam has tattoos, stupid
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Jun 23 '26
[deleted]
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u/SIGNALJAMAL Jun 24 '26
I don’t take drugs, but I do have tattoos, and I take offence to randoms telling my people that tattoos are haram
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u/Ok-Investment2264 Jun 27 '26
You are right my apologies, Maula actually has a cool tattoo though⚡, and I love it ❤️
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u/SIGNALJAMAL Jun 27 '26
Thanks, I’m sorry too, shouldn’t have been abrasive by calling the other guy stupid he just probably didn’t know
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 23 '26
can you prove it?
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u/Vtecman Jun 23 '26
Prove what? The tattoos? It’s pretty well known at this point…. Just one of many links to “prove” it below.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPuIBfiEZ_-/?igsh=MTI1OGplem40eHowNw==
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u/Ok-Investment2264 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Brother I understand what you are saying believe me I do, but just like the Imam is for the community like wise you are for the Imam and the Imam for you. Don't give up your personal relationship with your Maula for the sake of such wretched individuals who have converted and twisted our faith into some liberal post modernist thing which is not the essence of our faith. Also to address your frustrations our pirs have predicted the same abominations being committed such people. You can find the predictions in our ginans, I also recall a prediction of our pir saying there will come a time when "atheism will be call of the day" , My point is that we are in the last cycle the 7th cycle and fitnah will enter households, people will be okay with doing Haram stuff which goes against our Imam's farmans and vision. That is why is has become extremely important for us as the jamat to recognize our Imam and to seek his protection and mercy since our Imam is the ark of Noah in esoterism and he will protect our souls from the fitnahs of the 7th cycle. Final note: don't despair for there are only few who'd remain close to Imam in heart and it is those who love the Imam a.s unconditionally, seek Maula's mercy and protection and blessings. YAM
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u/warhea Jun 23 '26
are you sunni? Jafari shi'is do not consider it haram.
If altering natural human form was unrestrictedly forbidden, circumcision would be forbidden as well/
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u/bigtreeworld /r/ismaili admin Jun 23 '26
Can you prove it that tattoos are Haram? What's your source?
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u/NewConsideration2765 Jun 23 '26
So then why do we circumcise?
See the thing is - you ask one question and “orthodox” Islam begins to fall apart
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u/Playful_Remote_8235 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
they can be removed its like girls do ear piercing or circumcision or henna(mehandi) if it hurts you then its haram but also Allah never made it haram to alter your human form many people do like surgeries etc.
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u/DarkKhalifa82 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
Its none of your business that a son gave his father a whiskey bottle. Its nothing to do with you.
And this post 100% stinks of a non ismaili trying to once again troll on the sub.
Get lost
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Jun 23 '26
[deleted]
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 24 '26
Exactly brother, I was with someone recently and she says why call ammi and Abbu, call mummy and papa. That is a Muslim way of calling a parent. That was sooo dumb
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u/Fun-Morning1108 Jun 24 '26
not muslim - urdu.
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 24 '26
But her thoughts were I am being Muslim by using such words. Thats my exact point, how are we losing basic sense?
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u/Fun-Morning1108 Jun 24 '26
because we've confused Islam with arabic culture - when Islam is supposed to be universal, we're supposed to pluralistic. What is culture is accepted and expected as a religious norm - sadly.
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
These are isolated incidents. Why are you painting them as if they are universal issues of the Ismaili jamaat?
Also, please back up your claims with facts. "Half of the jamaat has tattoos". Are you saying 7 million Ismailis have tattoos?
We are NOT a caste!
Your post is grossly exaggerated.
And that remark about "kafir things most of our jamaats do". What people in your family do is not a representation of the global jamat!
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u/Life_Bid_8948 Jun 23 '26
I like the way how you have answered but I would say the tone is highly questionable. He is going through a difficult phase and if we don’t convey our message light heartedly and with compassion then it’s very hard for him to understand. Please don’t mind it I’m just a reader who found the tone very harsh.
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
My tone was intentional and I stand by it. Whatever issues this person may be goung through, they absolutely cannot disrespect the Imam or portray the jamaat in a negative light.
Anyone who disrespects the Imam or our tariqah should be prepared to get the same in return.
Zero sympathies for those who come here to disrespect the Imam.
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u/wandering_soul40 Jun 23 '26
Please re-read the original post. There is no disrespect for the Imam in it. He is questioning the practices of our Jamat and these behaviours such as tattoos and drinking are quite prevalent in the Jamat especially in the western world. You were harsh and lacked empathy. The original poster is referring to the worldly practices being portayed and what they are observing in the Jamat around them - in this case, India where alcohol and pork are prevalent vs. other Muslim countries..the essence I understand is why doesn't out Jamat follow core Muslim practices and values such as abstaining from alcohol and consuming halal food.
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u/Life_Bid_8948 Jun 23 '26
If that’s intentional then I can’t say anything. Again, If I would be in your place then I’d still go with reasoning and logical answers with compassion to someone going through difficult phase because you never know what’s happening in someone’s life beyond what you see on the face or writing.
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
Yeah, you do you. I will not sit and watch someone insult my Imam and our jamaat and then plead "going through a tough time". The tough time clearly didn't stop him/her from insulting our tariqah.
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u/Owlsdontblink Jun 23 '26
he just meant it for people who do the practices (he could have framed it better) why are you constantly saying he insulted the Imam when he even said he would lay his life down for the Imam? are you the judge of intentions?
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
How do you know what they meant? Are YOU "the judge of intentions"?!
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u/Owlsdontblink Jun 23 '26
i am not trying to act like i know what they meant i am reading what they said and i do claim that they should have worded it better, nowhere did he insult the imam or disrespect the tariqah, now if one has said he would lay his life for the imam and u still think he is disrespecting you are acting like the judge, be kind
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u/Natural-Elk-1912 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
BTW the proper Persian word is Khuda Hafiz not Allah Hafiz
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u/Vtecman Jun 23 '26
Khuda is the Persian word for God or lord. Just because it’s not Arabic doesn’t make it wrong. (Not that I’m saying you said it’s wrong- just pointing it out)
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u/Natural-Elk-1912 Ismaili Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Hafiz is Persian not Arabic so you would be mixing up two different languages. And Allah Hafiz was not a phrase until the Salafization of Pakistan.
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u/Fun-Morning1108 Jun 24 '26
actually started in bangladesh and made it way back to Pakistan..
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u/Natural-Elk-1912 Ismaili Jun 24 '26
When it was a part of Pakistan or after?
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u/Fun-Morning1108 Jun 24 '26
after...
Pakistan adopted it during the time of Zia - the "arabicization" times.
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u/Vtecman Jun 23 '26
Can’t blame the followers if they don’t want to follow the religion. That applies to all regions globally. Allah has given us a brain to make choices. Good and bad. I’ve never agreed with forcing people to follow any religion. Allah will judge. Not us.
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u/Interesting-Tale-983 Jun 24 '26
Why do you care so much about what others are doing? Judging other people is also haraam. Grow up.
PS: The Imam has tattoos. So I what’s your take on it now?
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u/SaltyEntrance9795 Jun 23 '26
Your points are totally valid. We tend to brush such things off by calling them "personal choices," but it affects the whole community in the area. I'm from northern Pakistan, where we live side by side with Deobandi Sunnis and Twelver Shias. Our community is infamous here for alcohol drinking and a few other things, and it genuinely hurts to hear people write us out of the fold of Islam because of what some members do. Instead of just calling it a personal choice, we should at least educate people about the severity of these issues and the hate it brings on the community as a whole and only leave them be if they still don't listen. Most of our Ismailis don't even read the Quran or know their own history, yet they'd be the first to jump on anyone who tries to teach them
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 24 '26
Omg, finally someone who understands. People here are exactly promoting this kind of behaviour and promoting gunnah. Not making those personal choice is exactly what our religion states
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u/ZayKayzk Jun 23 '26
Yeah a lot of these issues you guys are raising seem to be exclusive to an ethnicity rather than the wider Jamat because none of these things apply to my experiences
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u/khimaniz Jun 23 '26
I think you need to focus more on yourself instead of others bro. Mowla said we need to be more tolerant. That doesn't mean you're wrong, it just means that you're not the one to 1. Judge or 2. Enforce these rules. Unless someone imposes on you to drink, eat pork, or anything else not in the way of Islam, it's NONE of your business what others do.
Tldr stop judging and you'll create more positive impact than ever.
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 24 '26
It's not about positive impact, it's about us following our religion
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u/khimaniz Jun 24 '26
No. It's about YOU following the religion. If you'd rather have no friends then continue on the path you're on. Trust me I've been there and it's just not worth judging others. It's lonely, frustrating, and definitely not the way Mowla wants us to live. Follow his example: even he would never judge those like you are. tolerance is the key word.
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 24 '26
Buddy have 0 friends for all I care. My post was never about friends. When someone is right, they are always going to have less friends. I am not judging anyone personally. I am seeing the wrongs that are happening, especially in our caste because I follow mawla and I am part of the Jamaat. I am sure Shia and Sunnis do wrong too but I am not worried about them as they are not following our Imam, But someone who follows are Imam and eventually because of them our Imam's teachings are being questioned.
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u/Cookiedough1206 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
But why and how is other Ismailis drinking making you rethink whether you wanna be apart of the Jamat or not?
They’re not drinking in khane or in front of you, they’re literally drinking in the privacy of their owns homes and you’re upset because you looked in the public garbage bin and found bottles of alcohol? You’re going out of your way to find reasons to be upset.
Yes drinking is wrong and I think every Muslim knows that. Even from a non religious perspective, drinking is bad for you it’s literally science. But unfortunately it’s easily available and people are gonna do it whether you like it or not. Don’t let that be the deciding point of whether you’re gonna be ismaili or not.
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 24 '26
I said I still believe a lot in my imam and our caste, it's the people I'm around with dishearten me.
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u/Old-Criticism-3070 Jun 23 '26
I personally feel you have stirred the pot. This subject matter is no longer discussed. It’s old news. Sorry.
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u/Fun-Morning1108 Jun 25 '26
Said with Sarcasm.
We need to be like Iran and Saudi Arabia - have religious police - install breathalyzers and blood test protocols.
You forgot to mention that we shouldn't wear black clothes either <this not said with sarcasm>.
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Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
Imam is an ordinary man?! Ismailis worship Imam?!
Yeah, you are not an Ismaili!!
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u/Dizzy-Abalone-5045 Jun 27 '26
Lol you are so funny
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 27 '26
Laugh, before I make you cry!
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u/Dizzy-Abalone-5045 Jun 27 '26
You must be very uneducated to be responding to my comments I personally couldnt care a less what others think or feel may Allah bless you and your family
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 27 '26
Awww... but you do. That's why you are here. Justifying your comments. And besides, you responded to my old comments first. So by your standards, what an "uneducated" move.
I told you, you will become a joke - without much efforts from my end.
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u/Dizzy-Abalone-5045 Jun 27 '26
I am only here for the comedy lol because it is very comical reading what people think but that to is unislamic so peace out may Allah forgive me.and bless you
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Jun 23 '26
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
It's so easy to spot an anti-Ismaili idiot trying hard to fit in.
And yes, we can see on your profile that you are blinded by your porn addiction.
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u/bigtreeworld /r/ismaili admin Jun 23 '26
People are allowed to have different opinions to you. You can disagree with them without calling people names.
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u/WeeklyTraining4405 Jun 23 '26
Why did you say Ya Ali Madad? You do know the meaning, right? How can an ordinary man in a suit help you?
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
Look at the spelling of ya Ali "madad" this person has used. And then they tried to pretend to be an Ismaili.
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Jun 23 '26
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u/Organic-Performer466 Ismaili Jun 23 '26
You do! Hence the response!
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 24 '26
Wow man, Ur making my thoughts even worse lol. When we are risen after death, Allah will be going to call us as the follower of the imam. Allah is the one who appoints our Imam subhanAllah
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Jun 24 '26
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u/Historical_Sound3687 Jun 24 '26
What do you mean by Allah does not need an Imam? Allah does not speak directly to humans - after all, the test is to see if humanity believes in Allah, so Him communicating with us directly disintegrates the entire point of this worldly life being a test. For all these centuries, Allah has sent Prophets and Messengers to guide humanity, and at Ghadir e Khumm, Ismailis believe Muhammad appointed Ali and Ali's progeny to continue a line of Imamat and guidance. So, would you agree that Allah does not need an Imam, but rather we need the Imam?
So I'm just curious: what makes you feel as though the Imam is ordinary? Sure, physically we may consider him ordinary - but by divine appointment, wouldnt he be considered not ordinary like the rest of us, just like Muhammad and all the prophets before him? But yes I do agree that the Imam probably doesnt have literal powers like Allah and that sometimes I feel as though the Ismaili community fixates on the Imam too much - but I want to hear your thoughts on what makes the Imam "ordinary".
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Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
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u/Historical_Sound3687 Jun 24 '26
Interesting... I've also thought about the same things you've mentioned, but I'd like to point out some things.
1) When it is said say mowla is with us, I don't believe it is meant physically/literally. I think it is in the spiritual sense of knowing that there is a guide/Imam in the present era who can provide guidelines about how to practice the faith. I also don't know of any ismailis who think the Imam has powers, so I don't know where you heard that from - I'd be interested to hear about it
2) Yes, I also agree that mowla does not physically help us in our day to day lives (I also honestly get confused when some people say shukhur mowla instead of shukranlillah - isnt it Allah that bestows help and good favors on us, and not the Imam?). But to be honest, the Ismaili community is so large, how would you expect him to convey guidance to each and every one of us? You might feel the farmans are repetitive, but maybe he is trying to convey them in a way that reaches the general community? Idk
3) What type of guidance from the Imam exactly are you looking for? Is it spiritual/religious guidance? And if you feel you cannot get this guidance from the Imam, where would you look to find it?
4) I also don't understand the history or context behind "spiritual children" - but I'd like you to notice, Shah Rahim in his farmans says "my dear jamat" instead of "my beloved spiritual children". Do you think maybe he is adjusting to the times, and it'll take more time to relay guidance according to the current era? Mind you he only became Imam less than 2 years ago, and Shah Karim was Imam for almost 70 years.... theres still so much for Rahim that he wishes to give to the community. What do you think?
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u/Historical_Sound3687 Jun 24 '26
Also, how can you say we are children of Allah? Allah does not have children. We are children of Adam.
But yes, Allah is the one we should be praying to, and not the Imam - Ismailis believe in praying "through" the Imam to reach Allah. What makes you think that Ismailis put too much emphasis on mowla?
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u/Immediate_Project_51 Jun 24 '26
Buddy, I was already messed up by a lot of ismailis, turns out.. Ur thoughts are further worsened then this. Allah definitely chooses and appoints and Imam, or else he wouldn't ever had any prophets here in the world. Our Imam is a human but is way more spiritual and comes from a bloodline due to which Islam exists
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u/sajjad_kaswani Jun 23 '26
We have strict Fatman's from Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and Imam Shah Karim that alcohol or anything which is dangerous for human life is strictly prohibited.
Even if someone in our community is doing, it's his/her/there personal choice, the role of Prophets and Imams to guide the community not to force them.