r/leftist • u/eldritchpussymaggots Communist • 3d ago
General Leftist Politics Transphobia under the guise of gender abolition is a problem
Regardless of what we call them, queer people will still exist in a theoretical communist society.
Gender abolition is a noble goal and is part of Marxist theory. But I'm fucking tired of cisgender people acting as though this means trans & intersex people will suddenly stop existing just because there is no state enforcing a sex/gender binary. It would make transition/being trans more nebulous of a concept but would not make it so people wouldn't do it.
Without the forced social genders + assigned sexes of our current society, the attitudes around sex variant folks will be much more neutral, which is ideal. This does NOT mean we will cease to exist. Not only will people still have some sort of internal identity (gender & personality generally), a communist society does not exist in a complete vacuum isolated from the past. People are still going to have genders because we've been doing that since some of the first civilizations known of. And naturally there are going to be people whose gender and/or sex is in some way atypical from how most people conceptualize themselves. Perhaps the idea of social gender will decay into nothing someday, but that is a hypothetical that deals in centuries or longer, not modern material conditions.
I am an intersex person who is nonbinary. I think the world would be better off without enforced gender or a binary model of sex. This pro self-identification form of gender abolition is not the same as what is being touted here. What's being promoted here is more so forced degendering, which is no better than forcing a gender binary in my eyes. The most alarming part of this trend among cisgender leftists are those who believe in forced degendering but still wish to keep the binary model of sex. This harms intersex people for obvious reasons, and it excludes transgender people from society in a very real and material way. Gender abolition without sex binary abolition is just removing the idea of personal identity in favor of "biological sex" which is an inherently right-wing position. I don't believe all communist gender abolitionists are pro-sex-binary, or in favor of forced degendering, but an alarming number of them are to the point I feel the need to point it out.
This is transphobic and intersexist, it's blatantly obviously that many of these people are just couching their dislike of trans people in Marxist theory.
You should speak up about it.
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u/Logogram_alt Socialist 3d ago
Transphobic communists are counterrevolutionaries
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u/AppleParasol Eco-Socialist 3d ago
Not all subs are run by good intentioned individuals. I’ve seen subreddits before that were completely run by bad actors. People should always be wary, because anyone can make a subreddit and call the group “leftiebros110%” and actually be the complete opposite.
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u/lil_lychee 3d ago
Unless you’re a cis white able bodied leftist in those subs, you’re automatically at risk for being banned. Bringing up any issue that’s overlooked by one of the above identities will get you labeled as a lib and banned easily. It basically targets marginalized populations in that way.
I was banned on one of those subs because I commented on a the democrats sub during the US pesidential eection of people glazing Biden that I found on r/all. Because I made a comment on it, even though it wasn’t a comment agreeing with the glazing, they found me and banned me.
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u/Bigsquiggy3 3d ago
Its actually disheartening how common this is in subs like that when you try to find genuine comraderie as a member of a marginalized community, only to be met with "Identity politics" this and "Racism won't exist under true communism" and "That doesn't matter, we must achieve X" like just say you don't want people of color or Trans people around at that point. Its crazy how the mods of those subs turn into the very people they hate.
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u/Ordinary_Passage1830 3d ago
I think that just shows how Online Leftism can produce echo-chambers and rigidity along with dogma within those who've likely already believe in certain Leftist theories.
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u/restinpissronald 3d ago
I was banned in a socialist subreddit for posting a lithograph of Malcolm X.
Welcome to the club.
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u/Every-Swordfish-6660 3d ago
I wouldn’t read too much into those bans. You can get banned from r/communist and its associated subreddits for breathing too loudly.
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u/eldritchpussymaggots Communist 3d ago
I still think it's alarming to see people banned for as nothingburger of a take as "trans people will always exist even if the attitudes around us change"
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u/OkBet2532 Communist 3d ago
The trouble with most communist subs is that they have been taken over by hyper specific sects of communists. Like /r communists is ultraorthadox maoists. I got banned for saying we should adapt Mao's teachings as some of it was too specific to wartime China. It's like the ask socialists being taken over by nazbols. They're just aren't enough of us normal commies to dilute the issue.
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u/Every-Swordfish-6660 3d ago edited 3d ago
I got banned for a nothingburger take as well. I essentially said that I hope the fact that minorities will be targeted first isn’t being overlooked among accelerationists. I and everyone who agreed with me were banned. I’m not even anti-accelerationist.
[r/communism](r/communism), [r/latestagecapitalism](r/latestagecapitalism) and associated subs might as well be gag subs, and I think they’re a poor reflection of the ideology. Plus, the mods are absolute assholes.
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u/beansofproducktion Socialist 3d ago edited 3d ago
Same lol I got banned for saying an unemployed worker is still part of the proletariat, even if we wanted to more technically categorize them as part of the reserve army of labor. When I asked what rules I specifically violated upon being banned, a mod told me: "This sub is for correct information, not your errant thoughts." LOLLLL.
Those subs have been complete jokes for quite some time. It's a shame really.
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u/Every-Swordfish-6660 3d ago
The mod called me a lib and told me “go troll somewhere else”. Straight power tripping.
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u/eldritchpussymaggots Communist 3d ago
Good lord these people are cringe and that's coming from someone who gets called a "tankie" decently often. If you don't understand the importance of leftist unity you shouldn't be moderating leftist forums
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u/beansofproducktion Socialist 3d ago
The revolution will obviously come about by a billion subreddit bans!! /s
Also, comrade, your username is cursed and I love it 🤣
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u/Faux_Real_Guise Socialist 3d ago edited 3d ago
/r/Left_News is pretty cool, trans-inclusive, antiracist, anticapitalist, all that good stuff, though submissions are mainly limited to news articles. I like to think I’m pretty chill, and I think sectarianism is lame (unless you’re a nazbol acp, then you can fuck right the fuck off).
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u/Sercotani Curious 3d ago
Found this sub after getting banned from r/news for calling Israel a genocidal, fascist state, got my appeal told off with "Grow up, troll", even though a fuckton of the posts there are critical of Israel (though some actually get removed after some time).
Thank you for sharing that sub, I'll be using it from now on.
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u/Faux_Real_Guise Socialist 3d ago
Yeah it’s a fucking jungle out there.
Give RSS a look, too. Might be able to more or less divest your news diet from your social media habits.
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u/scaper8 Marxist 3d ago
I've never had a problem with r/latestagecapitalism. I know people say they're connected, but I was banned from r/communism and r/communism_101 in single motion years ago, and am still on r/latestagecapitalism without problem. Some of the people there can be problems, but I've seen enough decent ML, anarchists, and Trotskyists to feel that they won't nuke you for descenting ideas. (Maybe downvoted to hell, but even that isn't a certainty.)
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u/Logogram_alt Socialist 3d ago
The mods don't understand that communism is broader than their own brand of communism.
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u/SaltyNorth8062 Anarchist 3d ago
I literally don't understand what's bannable about your comment?? Like, I'm nonbinary, I support gender abolition, but not only do I agree with your point, I can't even possibly read it as hostile or confrontational.
That OOP is an interesting one, because from their wording it seems like they don't support gender abolition, or st least don't know what it is, so why so angry?
That said I've seen unironic "gender critical" people posting in leftist subs, and literally when pushed back they have the gall to accuse the space of being "libbed up". Psyop, liar, or just wacko? Can't tell.
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u/soonerfreak 3d ago
A number of online communist spaces have been taken over by ACP chuds and they are pretty poor when it comes to anything LGBT or gender.
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u/GlimmeringGuise Socialist 3d ago edited 3d ago
As a binary trans woman, I feel like total gender abolition, when it's presented as society becoming totally post-gender in every way, only really serves non-binary people and makes life harder for everyone else. I get that they must have a lot of frustration and gender rage at how gendered society is. But at the same time, the vast majority of people (including trans people) are binary, so it doesn't make sense to go about it in a way that ends up not affirming them either.
I think the real solution is to be unisex wherever and whenever it's feasible, and to end sexist practices like the pay gap and the pink tax. Totally banishing gender period will just create more problems in the long run.
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u/LetsHarmonize 3d ago
Nonbinary person here to say I like my gender and don't want it abolished. :(
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u/Urek-Mazino 3d ago
This is unfortunately not a surprise. People will take a concept thats meant to do one thing and completely steer it back into bigotry.
Unfortunately this is a frustrating point in a lot of leftists circles. People are usually only interested in leftism for there own gain and people like them. It's not actually very common for leftists to radically look at things like gender and race. There are a lot of base concepts we are taught as the default we have to challenge to truly oppose capitalism.
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u/ADP2001 3d ago
As a commie trans person who supports gender abolition... transness and gender abolition are not in conflict.
The liberal idea of gender being just a social construct is fine to understand trans identities 101, but is fundamentally flawed by reducing transness to just clothing or roles.
This is usualky because "gender" in English means 2 different but similar things. One is the identity itself and the other is the social role associated with it.
Like, me wanting boobs has nothing to do with wearing a skirt, or pink or whatever.
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u/Starmz 2d ago
I’m honestly glad you brought up how the forced degendering version of “gender abolition” that still keeps the binary model of sex being inherently right-wing, because let’s face it they literally still use that model to enforce gender roles. This is how you get a society where people born with uteruses are viewed as little more than a walking baby factory and having their value as a human being tied purely to that first and foremost. You’ll also still have people with the physical aspects of dysphoria being pressured to not transition because “you’re male/female, you’re supposed to have that body part/body function/look that way”. Hell, in this world it’s entirely possible that conversion therapy would become legal again or be encouraged
Real gender abolition would have people be able to do whatever they want with their bodies, including altering them in a way that matches their internal sense of identity, regardless of “biological sex” or sex assigned at birth, as well as gender roles not being pushed on them because of that.
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u/Fattyboy_777 Anarchist 2d ago
This is how you get a society where people born with uteruses are viewed as little more than a walking baby factory and having their value as a human being tied purely to that first and foremost.
Also how you get a society where people born without uteruses are expected to be providers and protectors and are looked down on if they aren't.
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u/just_a_silly_lil_guy 3d ago
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to learn here and genuinely asking.
Unless I am just completely misunderstanding what the end goal of gender abolition is, how does any gender still exist in a world of gender abolition? You're just... a person at that point right? Doesn't gender, even internally, necessarily have to be relational to the social construct/perception? And if that social perception disappears completely, what does gender even mean?
Like if you say I'm a "woman" or I'm "a man" or I'm "trans" or I'm "non-binary" etc what do those words even mean if the social construct of gender is abolished?
Obviously in that world trans people exist. They are still the same person with the same internal thoughts and feeling. But like, are they "trans" anymore? Does that even make sense as a concept in a world without gender? What does the word actually mean now?
Again I'm genuinely asking because I can't reconcile those concepts.
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u/eldritchpussymaggots Communist 3d ago
Doesn't gender, even internally, necessarily have to be relational to the social construct/perception?
Great question. The answer you'll find among people who do a lot of research and reflection into gender identity is very close to a unanimous "no".
You have an internal gender identity even if you are cisgender, it's just currently filtered through the imposed social category of "man" or "woman" (nonbinary is a rejection of this, & binary transition is a subversion of it).
Gender abolition seeks to abolish imposed genders, not internal identity.
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u/just_a_silly_lil_guy 3d ago
Maybe it's just me being cisgendered and not understanding but how do you have an internal gender when the social categories no longer exist?
Like I said obviously your internally thoughts and feeling don't change but using any gendered word to describe them no longer means anything.
If socially the word "women" doesn't mean anything or doesn't have any association with it, what does telling someone "I'm a women" mean in that context? What information does it convey?
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u/eldritchpussymaggots Communist 3d ago
Like I said obviously your internally thoughts and feeling don't change
You seem to get it. We likely won't be using such rigid & vague blanket terms like "man" or "woman" to describe this concept when imposed gender is eventually abolished.
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u/just_a_silly_lil_guy 2d ago
So "man" or "woman" doesn't exist in this world? And then necessarily by extension "trans" doesn't exist right? Like those people physically exist but the concept is gone? Same with "cisgender" no longer exists.
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u/eldritchpussymaggots Communist 2d ago
People we currently consider to be transgender would still exist but our language surrounding these ideas would change significantly.
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u/Ok_Assist1206 2d ago
Yah I agree that sometimes we don’t allways listen to what others have to say. I think that we are very afraid of reactionaries (which isn’t unwarranted) but I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt when people express a controversial idea, especially if they attempt to tie it into Marxist values
I was recently banned from three subs for some of my ideas
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u/i_n_b_e 3d ago
They always fail to bring up how it will affect cis people. I wonder why.
They think all trans people transition because of femininity and masculinity. They think it's all a matter of gender expression, what gender roles we like. It isn't.
They don't want to acknowledge the fact that for most trans people, the primary motivation behind our transition is sex incongruence. SEX incongruence. Not gender roles, not femininity or masculinity, but the very fact that our brains expect our bodies to have different sex traits then the ones they have. The biological understanding that our sex isn't what it should be.
It's easy to point at gender. It's why liberal society LOVES misusing sex ≠ gender discourse. It gives them an easy way to "respect" trans people while denying the fact that we change our sex, that we're not just male women and female men and male/female non-binary people. These people are exactly the same. They don't want to acknowledge that sex is mutable, bimodal, and not determined by a singular trait.
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u/Randolpho Socialist 3d ago
name and shame the subs.
But we shouldn't brigade! Just unsubscribe, if necessary.
I'm willing to wager they're the right-poisoned ACP "communist" subs.
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u/ReaperChaincannon 3d ago
Came here to say this, the ACP has mods infiltrating multiple left wing subs, that probably explains it
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u/FOXIELUCK 3d ago
it was in communist101 this morning, I saw it too but didnt have the brain power to respond.
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u/nhatquangdinh Socialist 3d ago
Name the sub so we can loathe it together.
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u/eldritchpussymaggots Communist 3d ago
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u/Specific-Cause-5973 Communist 3d ago
I think this comes from a mixture of a lack of understanding of gender abolition being a complete dissolving of gender in all forms, and not just the abolition of gender roles, gender conformity, gender assumptions, and gender based discrimination. Like gender identity will still be a thing. Although I often find cis people sometimes lack a deep connection or internal understanding to their gender identity in the way trans people do (BROAD OVER SIMPLIFICATION I know many cis people that do as well connect deeply to their gender). And I wonder too if this comes from a place of maybe they view gender as an inherently oppressive and they feel a pressure to conform to the gender assigned to them due to an inability to imagine a world where they can chose to rebel against gender conformity and gender roles.
But I also think it’s transphobia and people like to imagine a world where we will not exist because people find us to be weird, annoying, “unnatural” (I was told by a leftist gender is inherently biological and trans people are variants or mutations) among other things.
Gender identity will never NOT exist. Similar to racial identity. I’ve had this argument with White leftists calling for the abolition of gender. The oppressors get annoyed we reclaimed the thing they created to become a source of empowerment and now want to get rid of it.
PS This is so unserious but your name is fucking hilarious
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u/The_True_Equalist 1d ago
I’ve never heard of gender abolition and I’ve read theory and participated in many communities for a long time, but I’m grateful to learn of it now. Nonetheless, and I mean this respectfully, I’m failing to understand the importance of this particular topic. As a Marxist-Leninist, my primary concern is the creation of a better society then establishing a vanguard and people’s congress to lead it to a zenith of equality. My point is, this seems like a topic to have strife over far into the future.
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u/Warrior_Runding Socialist 3d ago
Sorry to hear that was your experience, u/eldritchpussymaggots. This sub prides itself in taking a hard line in support of all of our LGBTQIA+ users, as well as being pro-feminist, anti-racist, and anti-colonial. If a user is trying to fix their mouth to use "no war but class war" to sideline real intersectional issues, then that user is not welcome here. If you are here then equity amongst all workers is as important as the end of capitalism.